Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Casey Luskin at Hillfaith: Using the Positive Case for Intelligent Design to Answer Common Objections

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Part of a series:

An article from the theistic evolutionist BioLogos Foundation argues that “pragmatically” the argument for design “is in fact an argument from ignorance” because “it seems like you need to test for (lack of) natural explanations to discover irreducible or specified complexity.”5

These accusations bear little resemblance to the actual theory of intelligent design, as put forth by ID proponents. Indeed, if the positive case for ID shows anything, it’s that this objection is incorrect.

ID’s positive arguments are based precisely upon what we have learned from studies of nature about the origin of certain types of information, such as CSI-rich structures. In our experience, high CSI or irreducible complexity derives from a mind.

If we did not have these observations, we could not infer ID. We can then go out into nature and empirically test for high CSI or irreducible complexity, and when we find these types of information, we can justifiably infer that an intelligent agent was at work.

Thus, ID is not based upon what we don’t know — an argument from ignorance or gaps in our knowledge — but rather, is based upon what we do know about the origin of information-rich structures, as testified to by the observed information-generative powers of intelligent agents.

Casey Luskin, “Using the Positive Case for Intelligent Design to Answer Common Objections” at Hillfaith (May 17, 2022)

Casey Luskin links to the whole series at this page.

You may also wish to read: Casey Luskin: ID as fruitful approach to science The trouble is, many people would just as soon that research into evolutionary computation anatomy and physiology, and bioinformatics, however fruitful, not be done if it undermines a comfortable Darwinism.

Comments
JH, I remember going with my then fiance to a park set up by the then just previous PM of Jamaica, and seeing there black swans. KFkairosfocus
May 22, 2022
May
05
May
22
22
2022
11:20 PM
11
11
20
PM
PDT
Jerry: I have photos of black swans I took in New Zealand.
So, that is what they do with the surplus Kiwi brand shoe polish. :) https://www.spar.lk/products/kiwi-shoe-polish-black-36gJHolo
May 21, 2022
May
05
May
21
21
2022
07:36 AM
7
07
36
AM
PDT
I have photos of black swans I took in New Zealand.jerry
May 21, 2022
May
05
May
21
21
2022
04:52 AM
4
04
52
AM
PDT
JVL:
There are no black swans, there cannot be any black swans because . . . well . . . we’ve never seen them.
Except for the fact that has NOTHING to do with our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships! And you want to ante up $10,000 to debate me on science?ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
08:59 PM
8
08
59
PM
PDT
It has been determined. And thank you for proving my point:
Genetic code refers to the instructions contained in a gene that tell a cell how to make a specific protein. Each gene’s code uses the four nucleotide bases of DNA: adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) and thymine (T) — in various ways to spell out three-letter “codons” that specify which amino acid is needed at each position within a protein.
and
The genetic code is the set of rules used by living cells to translate information encoded within genetic material (DNA or mRNA sequences of nucleotide triplets, or codons) into proteins.
Even high school students understand that the genetic code involves transcription and translation. DNA is a coded information carrier.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
02:12 PM
2
02
12
PM
PDT
ET: Once intelligent design has been determined,...
Well, let us know when it has been determined. Because I can hardly wait until all of the research that will follow.
And DNA isn’t the genetic code. Do you even have a high school education in biology?
"It is like a code. If you are given one set of letters you can write down the others. Now we believe that the D.N.A. is a code. That is, the order of the bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)."JHolo
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
01:41 PM
1
01
41
PM
PDT
JHolo:
Actually, there is ONE and ONLY one intelligence known to produce coded information processing systems and that is via humans.
I have already been over this. Why do you think your willful ignorance is an argument? Once intelligent design has been determined, if it couldn't have been humans, we infer it was some other intelligent agency, duh. Science 101. And DNA isn't the genetic code. Do you even have a high school education in biology?ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PDT
ET: However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101.
Actually, there is ONE and ONLY one intelligence known to produce coded information processing systems and that is via humans. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning, we infer the genetic code is designed by humans. Science 101. And by the same reasoning, we can infer than humans invent time travel. Or, we can simply draw the only honest conclusion that can be drawn about DNA. We do not yet know how it developed.JHolo
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101. JVL's flailing responses to that proves he is ignorant of science. Nice own goal.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
JVL:
ET‘s got it right and generations upon generations of scientists have got it wrong.
Stomping your feet and whining doesn't help you, JVL. Hitchens was NOT a scientist. He was a philosopher.
What’s your testable, congruent alternative?
Alternative to what? Your lies and ignorance? However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101. Again, THAT IS THE SAME REASONIN G ARCHAEOLOGISTS USED TO DETERMINE THAT STONEHENGE WAS INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED. JVL is clearly being an obtuse infant. Blind and mindless processes have been eliminated for the reason there isn't any evidence to support it. There aren't any testable hypotheses. And you don't even know what a scientific hypothesis is. ID is scientific because it's claims can be and have been tested and confirmed. But you are ignorant of science. So, that is all you have. It is very telling that the way to falsify ID is to step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable. Yet instead evos just flail around like fish out of water.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
12:47 PM
12
12
47
PM
PDT
JVL at 75, I have been discussing this for a long time. My objections are not vague and no evolutionist has explained anything. I've heard the same stories repeated but they are based on belief, not science. You seem to think 'evolution' is the only answer. It's a series of stories told over and over. There was not enough time for evolution - a blind, unguided process - to do anything. That is the key element, isn't it? Given enough time, enough throws off the dice, modern living things? Take the human eye. Just gradually 'evolved' from previous, less functional light sensors? No, that's just a story. You keep saying things kept improving, that nature got rid of the bad versions of organisms and replaced them with smarter and faster, etc. Take humans. We are not all smarter, faster, etc. I'm sure you know people who are shorter than average, slower, both physically and mentally, and otherwise less than ideal according to the story. But guess what? They reproduce. So there's no need to believe in evolution gradually improved anything.relatd
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PDT
ET: You have never done so. No one on this planet has ever done so. You are lying. Right. ET's got it right and generations upon generations of scientists have got it wrong. Wow, I don't see what I can say in the face of such intellectual power. Christopher Hitchens never supported evolution means of blind and mindless processes. Clearly he did. Over and over and over again. Your blind denials might go down well with some but for anyone who has read his books or listened to him debate, the truth is obvious. Liar. Given starting populations of prokaryotes there aren’t any known naturalistic mechanisms capable of producing eukaryotes. Endosymbiosis just provides one organelle. And even that isn’t testable. What's your testable, congruent alternative? The designer did it? When? How? NOT FAIR you'll shout, ID doesn't deal with that until we've spent time studying the design. Well, you've studied the design and you haven't moved on. You can protest and pout all you like but ID has not come even close to making an attempt to say when design was implemented. Not as a whole body of thought. Some individuals have but there is no unified ID theory. That's one of the reasons why unguided evolutionary theory is a better explanation: there are general agreements on when and how and, sometimes where. And certainly why. ID has none of those. How is that an explanation? We don't know how. We don't even agree on when. Where . . . forget that. However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101. There are no black swans, there cannot be any black swans because . . . well . . . we've never seen them. Our only experience is that they don't exist. Who built the pyramids? It must have been some superior intellingence? Why? Because in our experience we've never seen anyone do that. Five hundred years ago: we have never seen anyone produce a rainbow so they must be signs from God. Ummm . . . hang on. Don't you want to check and test and make sure you don't toss in the towel before you've checked everything out? This is part of the point. Some ID proponents say: it's done, we're sure. Unguided processes could not be responsible. But how do they know that when there is work ongoing. When there is research being done? Heaven forbid they should make a probabilistic argument! That's not right is it ET? IF ID is not to be considered a science stopper then it must accept that it's not possible to make bold and definitive claims as to what is and what is not possible. We just don't know yet. I am firmly in the unguided camp, I admit it. But I also acknowledge that we have to consider all our rules and opinions provisional, subject to the data and knowledge we have now. And, if that changes, then our opinions and laws and views must also change. What I hear a lot of ID proponents say is: no, we've eliminated unguided causes. ET said so explicitly earlier in this thread. Is that science or confirmation bias?JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
Relatd: So I raise a curtain, wait millions of years and better organisms pop out? That isn’t science. That’s not even good, plausible stortytelling. I explained to you the rough outlines of the process. If you don't understand it I'm not sure what else you expect me to do. That’s why everyone is tall and handsome today? So-called “modern humans” have Neanderthal DNA. What? Not everyone is tall and handsome are they? AND, I suspect 'tall' and 'handsome' are more likely to be part of sexual and not environmental selection. Do you want to have a serious conversation or are you just going to continue to throw out vague and shallow objections which have most likely been discussed and explained years if not decades ago?JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
JVL:
When I have done that in the past you’ve just dismissed what I spent time and effort to present.
You have never done so. No one on this planet has ever done so. You are lying. Christopher Hitchens never supported evolution means of blind and mindless processes. No one has. But way to ignore the argument. Your willful ignorance exposes your agenda.
We do have evidence. We have multiple threads of evidence all of which are congruent with the unguided explanation.
Liar. Given starting populations of prokaryotes there aren't any known naturalistic mechanisms capable of producing eukaryotes. Endosymbiosis just provides one organelle. And even that isn't testable. However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101.
Brilliant.
Yes, it is. It is the SAME reasoning that tells us that Stonehenge was intelligently designed. But you, being ignorant of science and investigation, are too dim to understand that.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:43 AM
11
11
43
AM
PDT
JVL at 70, So I raise a curtain, wait millions of years and better organisms pop out? That isn't science. That's not even good, plausible stortytelling. "What happens is that over many generations the stronger, smarter, etc variants become more and more prevalent. This may be what happened to the neanderthals, they just may not have been able to compete with homo sapiens and so, eventually, just faded out." That's why everyone is tall and handsome today? So-called "modern humans" have Neanderthal DNA.relatd
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:20 AM
11
11
20
AM
PDT
ET: There isn’t any scientific theory of evolution. JVL cannot say who the author was. JVL can’t say what journal it was published in. JVL can’t say when it was published. JVL can’t provide any predictions borne from blind and mindless processes (besides genetic diseases and deformities). When I have done that in the past you've just dismissed what I spent time and effort to present. So I'm not going to bother feeding your obviously ridiculous claim. Even Dr Behe thinks there is a theory of evolution. There isn’t any evidence that nature can produce coded information processing systems. There isn’t even any way to test the claim that nature can produce coded information processing systems. Christopher Hitchens said that we can dismiss such claims. And the $10, 000, 000 challenge cements that dismissal. As well you know, Christopher Hitchens fully supported unguided evolution and thought that ID was pure religious manipulation. We do have evidence. We have multiple threads of evidence all of which are congruent with the unguided explanation. However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton’s four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101. Brilliant. The same reasoning lead people to decide there could not be black swans. That reasoning would say: no, quantum mechanics can't be right because we've never actually seen that happen. Someone had to say: well, why don't we actually look to see if it happens. And evolutionary researches have looked and have concluded: yup, it is happening.JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PDT
No plan and no chance at producing the biological diversity observed today. Natural selection is impotent with respect to producing the diversity of lifeET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
Relatd: Not fair? The ‘leave more offspring’ idea does not mean the previous version disappears. We have people alive today that are taller, faster and so on. And guess what? That proves evolution wrong. Agreed, which is why the old creationist argument: if we evolved from apes then why are they still around is wrong. Well, it's wrong in lots of ways. What happens is that over many generations the stronger, smarter, etc variants become more and more prevalent. This may be what happened to the neanderthals, they just may not have been able to compete with homo sapiens and so, eventually, just faded out. It doesn't prove evolution 'wrong'; it means you are expecting sudden and vast changes when it takes many, many generations. Hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions of years.JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
ET: Natural selection is a process of ELIMINATION. It is non-random only in that not all variants have the same probability of being eliminated. Loss of function is beneficial. NS is nothing more than contingent serendipity. Some variants are less able to exploit their environment, some are better at that. Those that are better tend to leave more offspring and their genes become more prevalent in the population. You can focus on that which is 'eliminated' or that which is 'selected' but the overall process is the same. Good variation tends to get kept, bad variation tends to get eliminated. Just concentrating on the words used doesn't help understand the situation. I absolutely agree that some variants have a greater or lesser chance of being eliminated or kept. Loss of function can be beneficial depending on the environmental conditions. The point is that unguided processes unconsciously influence what is more likely to get passed on. There is no plan, just environmental pressures.JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
11:08 AM
11
11
08
AM
PDT
Great. JVL doesn't have any idea what a scientific theory is. He is too afraid to pick up pro-ID literature and start reading. There isn't any scientific theory of evolution. JVL cannot say who the author was. JVL can't say what journal it was published in. JVL can't say when it was published. JVL can't provide any predictions borne from blind and mindless processes (besides genetic diseases and deformities). JVL doesn't understand biology. JVL doesn't understand genetics. JVL doesn't understand science. The test that the genetic code is intelligently designed is summed up as: The genetic code involves a coded information processing system. There isn't any evidence that nature can produce coded information processing systems. There isn't even any way to test the claim that nature can produce coded information processing systems. Christopher Hitchens said that we can dismiss such claims. And the $10, 000, 000 challenge cements that dismissal. However, there is ONE and ONLY one known cause for producing coded information processing systems and that is via intelligent agency volition. So, using our KNOWLEDGE of cause-and-effect relationships, in accordance with Newton's four rules of scientific reasoning. We infer the genetic code is intelligently designed. Science 101. And it fits right in the design hypothesis: 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
JVL at 63, Not fair? The 'leave more offspring' idea does not mean the previous version disappears. We have people alive today that are taller, faster and so on. And guess what? That proves evolution wrong.relatd
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
ET: Nope, just as archaeologists eliminated nature as a cause for Stonehenge, so it is with the explanatory filter. Please explain how the explanatory filter determines that natural processes are unlikely to have produced a certain thing. Be specific. What tests are used? What criteria are applied? Every archaeologist I have worked with has a process, a procedure, for deciding if something was man made or natural. What is your procedure?JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:53 AM
10
10
53
AM
PDT
JVL- Natural selection is a process of ELIMINATION. It is non-random only in that not all variants have the same probability of being eliminated. Loss of function is beneficial. NS is nothing more than contingent serendipity.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
JVL:
The ID argument actually is: the natural, unguided processes are highly, highly, highly unlikely to have done it. That’s not the same as elimination.
Nope, just as archaeologists eliminated nature as a cause for Stonehenge, so it is with the explanatory filter.ET
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:47 AM
10
10
47
AM
PDT
Relatd: Imagine a bunch of random elements doing random things, and then, after millions of years, one gets an unspecified “advantage.” Then, after millions of years, another unspecified “advantage.” Pretty soon, you run out of millions of years. That's not a fair or good representation of what I said. Every generation will have variants, some of those variant might be a bit stronger or faster or taller or somehow better able to exploit the local environmental conditions so they leave more offspring. Some of each generation are about the same as the generation before. Some of each generation are slower or stupider or less likely to outcompete their fellows; they will probably leave fewer offspring. Mutations and variation happen all the time, every single individual has some genes that are different from their parents. After millions of years what you get looks and acts a lot different from what you started with. Only the variation is random based on the what came before. The 'selection', what is better suited, fitter, is not random. It's based on the local environmental conditions.JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:36 AM
10
10
36
AM
PDT
JVL at 60, No way that this explains anything. Imagine a bunch of random elements doing random things, and then, after millions of years, one gets an unspecified "advantage." Then, after millions of years, another unspecified "advantage." Pretty soon, you run out of millions of years. A rock falls and kills an organism with a unspecified advantage.relatd
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
Taking a weekend break. Will look in next week.Fred Hickson
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
But a purely random process would not result in cumulaative change. Cumulative change happens (see Lenski’s LTEE) ergo evolution is non-random. I call that guided, others call it what they call it. We can argue what “guided” means or we can look at what happens and consider explanations. Part of what Dr Dawkins was trying to show with his simplistic weasel program was the effect of cumulative selection: i.e. if some variation was 'preferred' or gave some advantage to the organism and was retained then it was 'locked' (to some extent, obviously, what with mutations being random, some offspring might not retain the 'lock') or at least preferred; we now say 'fixed' in the population. While unguided evolution has no conscious goal certain variants are better able to exploit their environment and leave more offspring because of the environmental conditions which are NOT random. Over many generations the environmental conditions groom organisms to be more and more adapted, to leave more and fitter offspring.JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic
He’s saying “the creationist argument” (assuming he includes ID in this)
fair assumption
is like the first example. Probability is measured so that all coins are flipped at once and all have to land heads. That, supposedly, is how Behe and Meyer measure the evolution of specified complexity?
Yes, and Dembski too, the upper probability bound that he took from Seth Lloyd.
Not as a gradualist process but the entire flagellum, for example, has to appear in one event? This is beyond a parody – just absurd and lacking knowledge of what evolutionary critics are saying.
Indeed it's a gross misrepresentation of how evolution happens. If there are evolutionary critics who acknowledge this then good for them!Fred Hickson
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: So, ID says highly unlikely because a certain number of mutations are needed Needed for what? If, for example, it would take twice the age of our universe for a functional string of code to emerge Based on what mathematical model exactly? Any person could win the lottery 5 times in a row. But the reason sensible people do not mortgage their house and borrow money to play is because that rare chance is, for practical purposes, eliminated. Agreed, but the probability of someone winning five weeks in a row is much, much lower. Your example tend to assume a particular target which is always harder to hit. That’s how ID views the unlikelihood of a natural, unguided process achieving the result observed. Again, you are asking: what is the probability that we arose via unguided and natural processes? And, I agree, once you specify a target then the answer is almost zero. BUT the probability of something arising via unguided and natural processes is much, much higher. In general this is called the sharp shooter fallacy because if you draw the target around the bullet hole and then ask what is the chance of this hole being made in this particular location you're not understanding the way the system works. Think about it this way: IF the asteroid hadn't slammed into the earth about 66 million years ago do you think you and I would be here conversing via our highly developed and complicated technology? I don't think there is any way you can say things would have developed the same if we changed that one event. 70 million years ago the chances of you and me being here doing what we're doing is zero for all practical purposes. 60 million years ago the probability is still damn close to zero but maybe a bit more likely. And so on. Even two hundred years ago the probability of our exact event occurring is still very, very low. But, by two hundred years ago, the probability of there being people around now talking about how we came about is pretty likely But you and me in particular? Eh?JVL
May 20, 2022
May
05
May
20
20
2022
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply