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Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix)

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Move over, Professor Richard Dawkins. Atheism has a new champion.

Dave Mullenix has recently come up with not one but two philosophical arguments for atheism. Mullenix’s arguments, unlike Dawkins’, aren’t based on inductive inference, but on the unassailable facts that (i) a certain minimal amount of information (usually several bits) is required to represent a proper name; and (ii) a very large amount of information is required to represent all of the rules we follow, when speaking a language. Any Being that knows your name must be able to keep your name in its mind. That means its mind must be able to store more than one bit, so it can’t be the simple God of classical theism. Moreover, any Being that knows all the rules of a language (as God does, being omniscient) must be extremely complex – much more so than the first cell, say. And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.

I believe in addressing arguments for atheism head-on, especially good ones, so here goes.

Commenting in response to a question which I had previously posed to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, “Why does a mind require something brain-like?”, Dave Mullenix argued as follows:

I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.

Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just “vjtorley” is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total.

Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that’s associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be “on line”.

This is the single biggest weakness in ID – ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.

I’ve taken the liberty of trying to make Dave Mullenix’s arguments against theism as philosophically rigorous as possible, and this is what I’ve come up with.

Argument A. An argument against the existence of the God of Classical Theism (an absolutely simple and omniscient Being)

1. Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.
2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit.
3. If God exists, God knows everyone’s name. (By definition, God is omniscient, according to classical theism.)
4. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit.
5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind has multiple parts.
7. But if God exists, God’s mind does not have multiple parts. (By definition, God is simple, according to classical theism.)
8. Therefore God does not exist. (If P->Q and P->not Q, then it follows that not P.)

This argument will not trouble all religious believers. Some of them might be tempted to say: “We can jettison classical theism but still retain our belief in God. Maybe God is omniscient, but complex.” But Dave Mullenix’s second argument discredits even this fallback position.

Argument B. An argument against the existence of an omniscient God who created life

1. If God exists, God knows each and every human language. (True by definition of omniscience.)
2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
3. Rules have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. (A rule contains several words; hence you can’t represent a rule using only a single bit.)
4. Since the rules of a human language include not only phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules, but also semantic rules and pragmatic rules, the total number of rules in any given language is vast.
5. Therefore any entity that knows a language is capable of holding a vast number of bits of information (let’s call it N) in his/her mind.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains an extremely large number of bits of information. In fact, this number is much larger than N, as N is the number of bits required to specify the rules of just one language, and there are roughly 10,000 languages in existence, to the nearest order of magnitude.
7. However, the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is smaller than N. (A living cell is complex, but it cannot be as complex as the total set of rules in a human language – otherwise we would be unable to describe the workings of the cell in human language.)
8. Indeed, it is probably the case that the total number of bits required to explain the existence of all life-forms found on Earth today is smaller than N. (Many ID advocates, including Professor Behe, are prepared to assume that front-loading is true. If it is, then the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is sufficient to explain the diversity of all life-forms found on Earth today.)
9. The more bits an entity requires to specify it, the more complex it is, and hence the more antecedently unlikely its existence is.
10. Therefore God’s existence is antecedently even more unlikely than the existence of life on Earth – the difficulties of abiogenesis notwithstanding.
11. An explanation which is antecedently even more unliklely than what it tries to explain is a bad explanation.
12. Hence invoking God (an omniscient Being) to explain life is a bad explanation.

A brief comment about the wisdom of choosing names

Before I go on, let me just say that the choice of names was a very clever one on Dave Mullenix’s part. Traditionally, Scholastic philosophers have maintained that God’s mind can store a vast number of concepts, in virtual form. How does God know what a dog is, what an E. coli bacterium is, and what an atom of gold is? The Scholastic reply has been that each of these entities must possess a kind of unity, or it wouldn’t be an individual. Therefore God, who knows all things in the most perfect manner possible, must have a unified concept of each of these kinds of entities. What’s more, God doesn’t even need to have separate and distinct concepts of each of these creatures. He only needs to have a concept of Himself as the possible cause of all these creatures, since He is able to create them all. Hence, simply by knowing Himself as a perfectly simple Being, God’s mind implicitly or virtually contains the concepts of all the various kinds of creatures which He is able to create.

Now, even if you buy that solution to the question of how God can have concepts of natural kinds, it certainly won’t work for names. Names don’t belong to any natural kind; they’re a human convention. And even if you were to maintain that God implicitly knows all names by knowing all possible combinations of letters or sounds, that wouldn’t explain how God knows your name – or how God knew Samuel’s name when He called him three times: “Samuel, Samuel.”

Argument A

OK. Let’s go back to argument A. What’s wrong with it? The problem, I believe, lies in premise 1: “Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.”

At first blush premise 1 seems obvious: surely all knowledge has to be in the mind of the knower. However, I’d like to challenge this assumption. Why should this be so? A clue to why this seems so obvious is contained in Dave Mullenix’s words, “that information needs to be ‘on line.'” If we picture God as having a conversation with us in real time, then of course He will need to be able to access relevant information about us – including our names – from one moment to the next. In other words, He will need to keep it in His mind. And since a name, being inherently composite, cannot be compressed to a single bit, there can be no room for it in the simple mind of God.

But God is not in real time. God is beyond space and time. This is true regardless of whether one conceives of God as atemporal (totally outside time) as classical theists do, or as being omnitemporal (present at all points in time) subsequent to the creation of the universe, as Professor William Lane Craig does. On either analysis, God is not confined to a single location in time. In that case, God does not have to store information about our names in His mind for future retrieval; it’s always immediately there for Him.

“All right,” you may answer, “but if God is talking to me, and He calls me by my name, then the information about my name must still be in His mind, mustn’t it?” Not so. I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind. I would suggest that God knows facts about the world (including individuals’ names) simply by having access to the states of affairs which make them true (their truthmakers, in philosophical jargon). These facts don’t need to be “in God’s mind”; He just needs to be able to access them. The fact that grounds my having the name I do is that my parents gave it to me, shortly after I was born. God, who holds all things in being, was certainly present at this event: if He had not been present, my parents and I would not have been there, for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn’t need to be in His mind.

God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.

Argument B

Now let’s have a look at argument B. Here, the critical premise is premise 2: “Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.” Now, this is plausibly true for a computer that can speak a language. However, it is not true for human speakers, and it is certainly not true for God.

Consider the English language. It certainly contains a vast number of rules. However, most speakers of English don’t know these rules. Many people don’t know what a preposition is, for instance. And even if a well-educated child were aware of all the phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules of a language, he/she could not possibly articulate all of the semantic rules and pragmatic rules. Yet virtually all children manage to learn their native tongue and speak it with ease.

It may be objected that we have an implicit knowledge of the rules of a language, even if most of us seldon need to make this knowledge explicit. Moreover, it could be argued, nothing is hidden or “implicit” to God. If He knows things in the most perfect manner possible, then He must have an explicit knowledge of each and every rule of a language.

But this objection assumes that the most perfect way to know a language is to know the rules, and then to apply those rules when making sentences. That’s roughly how I speak Japanese, for instance – but then, Japanese is not my native language. To know a language properly is to be in possession of a certain set of habits, which are properly acquired from being around the native speakers of that language for a certain length of time (usually a few years). Sentences produced as a result of this natural exposure have an authenticity that can never come from reading a grammar book.

“All right,” I hear you say, “but what about God? How does God pick up the habits of a language?” The answer, once again, is that God has epistemic access to all events – past, present and future. He was present at those points in history when each human language was in the process of being created; and He is present wherever mothers pass their native language on to their children. By having access to all these events, God can legitimately be said to possess all of the habits that an authentic native speaker of any human language possesses. Indeed, God has had more linguistic exposure than any one of us could possibly hope to experience. God has seen it all. That’s why God has no difficulty in producing perfect sentences in English, Hebrew or any other human language.

Notice that these habits do not have to be “in” the mind of God. They are “out there” in the course of history, as human languages are being created, and as they evolve over time. God, who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future, has a perfect knowledge of these habits, without them being “in” His mind.

I will conclude by saying that in order to mount a successful argument against God, an atheist would have to show that the notion of a Being who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future is an incoherent one. This has not been done to date, and there are even atheist philosophers who contend that the notion of such a Being is defensible. David Misialowski, a self-described “agnostic atheist,” is a case in point. His articles on God’s foreknowledge (see here, here and here) are highly entertaining and well worth reading, whatever your theological perspective.

I would like to congratulate Dave Mullenix for putting forward two highly ingenious arguments against the existence of God. They are much better and more interesting than the arguments recently put forward by the New Atheists.

Comments
As Peter O'Toole said in "The Ruling Class", "Everytime I pray, I find I'm talking to myself." Therefore, I'm God. So I've unfixed the future. You're now morally responsible again.dmullenix
July 13, 2011
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dmullenix:
And if your actions (which would include your thoughts) are fixed, then free will is impossible.
I disagree :D Therefore God. Or, at any rate, therefore moral responsibility.Elizabeth Liddle
July 13, 2011
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Now, concerning knowledge of the future – thank you for bringing up this ever fascinating topic. Let me start by saying I envision the universe and time like this: Take the (presumably spherical) universe at some particular instant and squash it flat into a disk. Now take the universe at the next instant, squash it into a disk and put that disk on top of the first one. Take the universe at the third instant, squash it into a disk and put it on the first two. Continue until you have a cylinder made of stacked disks, with each disk representing the universe at one particular instant. If you examine one disk from, say, five minutes ago, you’ll find both of us in it, you a dot in Japan and me a dot in Wisconsin. Neither of the dots will be moving because that disk represents just one instant of time. However, if we are walking around, our dots will be in different positions on different disks. Nothing original here, it’s a standard way of representing the universe and time. God would be outside the disk by most accounts, but capable of examining any portion of any disk or all the disks at once if He wants to. William Craig’s God would presumably be permeating all the disks at all times or something like that. I’m not familiar with his thoughts in this area. If we could look at that cylindrical universe from the outside, I personally think that the very top disk would represent the present and a new disk would be stacked on top of the cylinder every instant with each new disk representing “now”. In my view, the future does not yet exist and is not entirely predictable, so there are no disks beyond the present. Some people would stack disks representing the future above the present disk anyway. If that case, the “present” disk would constantly move upwards through the stack as the instants passed. All of the disks below the “present” disk would be still and unchanging because the past is fixed and unchanging. Some people think the future is also fixed and thus the future disks would also be unchanging. Some people think the future is not fixed and their disks would be ?? I don’t know. Blurry maybe? Or maybe the dots on the future disks would be constantly in motion as events in the present change the future? Got me. That’s why I just leave them off the stack. Misialowski, as I read him, is trying to prove that God’s foreknowledge of the future does not entail the future. He’s trying to prove that if God knows Misialowski will strangle his neighbor at a certain time, His knowledge does not force Misialowski to kill his neighbor. I agree with him. I don’t think that God’s knowledge or anybody else’s knowledge entails the future. If I had a time machine and saw him strangle his neighbor, my knowledge would not force him to do it. But I DO think that the only way God or anybody else can KNOW the future is if the future is FIXED and if the future is fixed then Misialowski’s actions in the future are also fixed and so are everybody else’s. And if your actions (which would include your thoughts) are fixed, then free will is impossible. In other words, it’s not the foreknowledge that entails the future and kills free will, it’s the fact that in order to have foreknowledge the future must be fixed and the latter kills free will. Misialowski tries to get out of this by using modal logic – distinguishing between things that are true in any one world and things that are true in all possible worlds. This works if the future is not fixed. At that future time Misalowski can decide to strangle his neighbor in one world and let him live in another. But if the future is fixed, there is only one world – the world in which he strangles his neighbor and there is absolutely no way for him to not kill him. The possible worlds where he doesn’t kill him don’t exist because the fixed future makes them impossible. So the atheists are right that if God knows the future then free will is impossible, but it's not God's knowledge that does the dirty work, it's the fact that the future can only be known if it is fixed.dmullenix
July 13, 2011
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Hi Victor, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. What goes into “knowledge” and how God allegedly acquires this knowledge is one of the most interesting questions in philosophy – and also one of the hardest to put into words, at least for me. My thoughts are still forming and discussions like this help bring them into shape. Going back to the beginning, I said this: “ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest.” Now you claim that God can extract phone numbers from the universe and recognize them for what they are – He can distinguish them from my house number or my social security number or my favorite color, which is blue, and He also knows what a phone is and how to use the telephone system. You also say that God can read minds, which means extracting thoughts from the cacophony of neurons firing and He doubtless has lots of other fantastic talents. Ok. But you also say he has no mechanism for doing this and sorry, but that’s impossible. Phone numbers don’t separate themselves out from the rest of the universe, they have to be separated and that does require some sort of mechanism, whether the mechanism is a part of God or external to Him. You just can’t have unsorted information and get anything out of it, regardless of your powers – unless you have a lot of internal information that lets you do the sorting and arranging. Theology keeps trying to evade this requirement by saying that God is simple (impossible if He can do what He’s reputed to be able to do) or he has epistemic knowledge (impossible without some way to separate facts and organize them) or that he has some sort of privileged position with respect to space and time (which wouldn’t replace separating and organizing facts) or that He created the universe and thus knows all about it. (then where did that knowledge come from?) or that He has always existed and He’s always been that way. (The more complex He is, the greater the odds that something simpler would have always existed instead.) In short, theology presents no way for God to have the properties imputed to him without His having vast amounts of highly organized information and also presents no way of accounting for the existence of that information. Science, on the other hand, has no problem answering those questions for humans: life started out so simple that chance could produce it (think of a single short polymer whose only ability is to reproduce itself) and grew in complexity through Darwinian evolution with chance changes adding information and natural selection weeding out the useless info and keeping the useful. Note that I’m not saying it’s impossible for God to have that information. Mormon theology apparently allows for humans to gradually develop into at least demi-Gods, but frankly I don’t think that we’ll ever get to be God gods that way. Or, if the odds against having God always exist with the needed information all neatly arranged are eleventy gazillion to one, then let there be eleventy gazillion times eleventy gazillion different universes and maybe one of them will have a God god who’s always existed. But then you’d be asking, “What are the odds that THIS universe is the lucky one?”dmullenix
July 13, 2011
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Hi Dave, Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. Concerning my solution to argument A, you write:
It kind of redefines “omniscience” to “having access to a really good library.” By that redefinition, I know the names of every telephone subscriber in New York City if I have access to a New York City Telephone book. But let’s accept that for the sake of argument.
There is a significant difference between God and you-with-a-telephone-book. The difference is that God's epistemic access is immediate. In your case, there is a small distance between you and the telephone book, and the information reaching your eye has to travel up your nervous system to your brain, so that you can process it. But I would put it to you that if the distance in space and time between you and the information were zero, that's as good as having it in your head. You also write:
The water in a stream has access to every pebble in the stream bed. And that means absolutely nothing because the water is unintelligent and thus can’t DO anything with that access.
I agree. Having immediate access to information does not mean the same thing as knowing that information. That's why I stipulated: immediate epistemic access. You ask what the mechanism of God's knowledge is. The traditional answer is that God needs no mechanism, by virtue of His privileged position with respect to creatures, space and time. With respect to creatures: God is their creator and sustainer. With respect to space and time: God is outside them (the atemporal view, which I favor) or at all points in space and time (William Lane Craig's view). On either view, it seems to me, God is able to have "knowledge of vision" of what we call future events. Concerning Argument B, you raise the example of your cat observing but not comprehending human conversation, and you write of God:
The problem with God is, “Where did the information that allows Him to comprehend the language he observes come from?”
I would reply that God does not merely observe sights, sounds, tastes, smells and feelings. He also observes thoughts. God is observing your thoughts even as you think now. When you come to think about it, He could hardly make a universe in which He was unable to do this, could He? As an observer of your thoughts, God can observe the propositions you are mentally contemplating. Concerning God's foreknowledge, you write:
But there’s a problem: to know the future, the future must be fixed.
What do you mean by "fixed"? And fixed from whose perspective? I would agree with Misialowski in denying the necessity of the past. I would also deny the necessity of a future that God can see. Finally, you write:
Your cites to Mr. Misialowski are very interesting. He makes a big error regarding modal logic. Can you spot it before Monday morning?
I've been re-reading Misialowki's paper at http://www.galilean-library.org/manuscript.php?postid=43827 where he outlines his own favored solution to the problem of free will and foreknowledge. I have to say that I don't see any obvious errors here. I've just stumbled upon a critical review of Misialowski at http://academy.galilean-library.org/archive/index.php/t-6217.html . I'll have a look at it today.vjtorley
July 12, 2011
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Mike 1962:
Why don’t you try asking whatever God there might be to reveal “himself” to you. How much time have you spent doing *that*?
Oh, quite a while :) As I've said before, Mike, I have a God. It's equating that God with the creator of the universe that I have a problem with. The "still small voice" God, I've always had, and still do. I just no longer see any reason to locate that God outside the universe, or, indeed, hold its owner to account for the horrors that universe sometimes inflicts on its creatures. So it seems a little misleading to call it the voice of "God".Elizabeth Liddle
July 8, 2011
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Liz, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. --Jeremiah 29:13" Now, the dude who wrote that was either bluffing or he wasn't. Too many people making difficult work over a simple matter. Not necessarily easy. But simple. Science can only take you so far. Sometimes you have to set sail and see where it takes you.mike1962
July 8, 2011
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Liz: If I’m supposed to believe in God on the basis of the evidence, then the evidence is surely relevant?
Why don't you try asking whatever God there might be to reveal "himself" to you. How much time have you spent doing *that*?mike1962
July 8, 2011
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Meleagar: ...having faith that somehow materialism can produce phenomena unlike itself as a matter of necessity – consciousness, reason, identity, and will...
Let's face it, there's no rational reason to believe this is possible let alone plausible.mike1962
July 8, 2011
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EL: Is there a difference between adopting #1 and having faith that somehow materialism can produce phenomena unlike itself as a matter of necessity - consciousness, reason, identity, and will; and adopting #2 and having faith that somehow pure benevolence necessarily produces an emergent quality unlike itself - evil? I don't really see the logical difference. Perhaps you could explain it to me.Meleagar
July 8, 2011
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Sorry for the late reply, but vacation, catch up and lack of sleep have slowed my response. And I’m still half asleep… Your response to “Argument A”: “I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind.” Interesting. It kind of redefines “omniscience” to “having access to a really good library.” By that redefinition, I know the names of every telephone subscriber in New York City if I have access to a New York City Telephone book. But let’s accept that for the sake of argument. The water in a stream has access to every pebble in the stream bed. And that means absolutely nothing because the water is unintelligent and thus can’t DO anything with that access. It can’t even tell you how many pebbles there are. To do even that simple a thing requires an internal mechanism for knowing what a pebble is, discerning pebbles from the mud they lie on and counting them. Just discerning the pebbles from the mud requires a complicated mechanism that embodies a rather large amount of information. (I think philosophers have a name for that problem – figure/field or foreground/background or The Framing Problem or something like that. It’s one of the “hard” problems.) Where did the information that allows God to see your name, comprehend it and use it come from? “God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.” More on this later. Your reply to “Argument B”: I think you’re a little confused on “rules” that are in our minds and “rules” that we devise by studying language from the outside. But it doesn’t affect the argument. The problem with God is, “Where did the information that allows Him to comprehend the language he observes come from?” Let me try to clarify that: My cat can observe people using language. If he was a Super Cat, he could even observe the internal workings of our brains as we use language. If he was a Timeless Super Cat, he could observe the internal workings of the brains of the first people who started to develop the very first languages. But unless he has the internal information necessary to understand what he observes, those observations do him no good. Where did God’s internal information come from? Now there are possible answers to these questions. From my very limited knowledge of the Mormon religion, they appear to believe that humans can develop into sort of gods with sort of god-like powers. Maybe the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God “evolved” that way. Any takers? I know I don’t believe it. Now about God being outside time: that’s another, VERY interesting problem. God is often presented as being omniscient – knowing everything. Most people think that God’s omniscience includes being able to see the future. Calvin certainly did. But there’s a problem: to know the future, the future must be fixed. If the future is variable – for instance, if you might wear a blue tie OR a red tie tomorrow, then no one can know if you will wear a red tie or a blue tie tomorrow in advance because you might wear either one – your choice is not fixed until you make it. Even God can’t tell. Even a God outside of time can’t tell. The only way the future can be known is if the future is fixed. Therefore, if any entity can know the future, then the future is fixed. But if the future is fixed, then your thoughts are fixed and you have no real free will. You may feel like you have it, but the minutest details of every nuance of your mind’s operation, both consciously and subconsciously are fixed and were fixed before you were ever born. Your cites to Mr. Misialowski are very interesting. He makes a big error regarding modal logic. Can you spot it before Monday morning?dmullenix
July 8, 2011
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It's very relevant! How could it not be? If I'm supposed to believe in God on the basis of the evidence, then the evidence is surely relevant? What is your evidence for a God who is both omnipotent AND benevolent? Because as I see it, if God is omnipotent he is not benevolent (why did he design human parasites, for instance?) and if he is benevolent, why does he not intervene to stop terrible things happening? If he works only through our hearts, why does he not change the hearts of those about to do terrible things? And if the excuse is that he will not deny us free will, why not at least deny us the Onchocerca volvulus? And if what we think is good is not necessarily what God thinks is good, how do we know that God is good? And if the answer is that God is the authority on what is good, why is that argument not completely circular?Elizabeth Liddle
July 8, 2011
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Elizabeth, there is plenty of evidence for God. That you fail to see it is irrelevant.kuartus
July 7, 2011
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So, EL: We have established that you would prefer that #2 be true. So, the question becomes: if you would prefer that #2 be true because it would make you happier, why not choose to believe it is true?
Because it is self-evidently not true. I mean, there might be Pie In The Sky When I Die, but there certainly isn't an omnibenevolent omnipotent god who does anything much up till that point. Petitionary prayer clearly doesn't work, and God clearly doesn't intervene to prevent suffering, even of entirely innocent children. Indeed, to postulate a God who deliberately created and designed all living things requires that we postulate a God who deliberately set on earth organisms who cannot live without destroying the health of human beings. That is not what I call a benevolent God. I'd be quite happy to believe in a benevolent God who was not omnipotent, or even an omnipotent God who was not benevolent (except i wouldn't worship it) if there was any evidence to support such a thing, or any benefit to the mere fact of postulating such a thing. But I see none.Elizabeth Liddle
July 7, 2011
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Wow! My very own thread! Thanks, VJ! Unfortunately, I just spotted it, I'm 159 comments behind and I have a tone of work to get caught up on after the holiday weekend, so I'll have to save my comments for tomorrow. There is one thing I have to write now: None of my ideas are original, though I don't have a cite for where I read them. But I want the world to know that if the choice of names was a very clever one, the cleaverness is not attributable to me.dmullenix
July 5, 2011
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Mung @145 "I agree information does not act. Other entities act upon receipt of information. But I disagree that only a mind can act upon receipt of information, if that’s what you’re saying." The *only* entities which can receive information are minds. It seems that you're confusing (and, infact, conflating) the symbolic representation of information for information itself. A signal/message contains no information, rather, it is an inherently meaningless symbolic representation of information.Ilion
July 5, 2011
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Driver: "Cosmologists come up with models to try to explain the data, not to circumvent philosophers." Agreed. But the their own personal philosophical cravings will buoy existing models. As you said, and I agree, that these models are attempts to unify QM and GR, but there is an ideological lust at work here also, and it has been well documented since the initial interpretations of the red shift. Hammered home by the catholic priest/physicist who proposed the expanding universe. Resistance to the expanding universe was not due to scientific objection, but rather philosophical: "In the 1920s and 1930s almost every major cosmologist preferred an eternal steady state Universe, and several complained that the beginning of time implied by the Big Bang imported religious concepts into physics; this objection was later repeated by supporters of the steady state theory.[81] This perception was enhanced by the fact that the originator of the Big Bang theory, Monsignor Georges Lemaître, was a Roman Catholic priest.[82] Pope Pius XII declared, at the November 22, 1951 opening meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, that the Big Bang theory accorded with the Catholic concept of creation.[83] Conservative Protestant Christian denominations have also welcomed the Big Bang theory as supporting a historical interpretation of the doctrine of creation.[84] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang Back to the unified field theory. It is possible that this problem was also solved, by Feynman and Weinberg's quantum theory of gravity. The issue was in this case, that in the same way a particles position and momentum cannot be determined, that there is also no ultimate equation. There simply is no Theory of everything. This naturally plagued poor Feynman and Weinberg. And ever since, physicists have been chasing the elusive unifying field theory. And after decades of research, they have accumulated an untold amount of papers. String theory alone boasts 10 500 different variations. Not to mention countless other non-string proposals, hypothesis etc. So it seems, if Feynman and Weinberg were to make a prediction based off of their equations it may have been something like, "since no ultimate equation can exist, physicists will fail in finding any ultimate equation." They never made this prediction. They too were disgusted by the implications of their own work. But as of today, it the implication stands. I guess we will have to stay tuned.junkdnaforlife
July 5, 2011
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And, how do we successively traverse the infinite, again?kairosfocus
July 5, 2011
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"Try arranging a collection of exclusively black cubes and getting a rainbow color" I love that. And I'm stealing it.Upright BiPed
July 5, 2011
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WJM, With infinite time and universes, all unlikely things come to pass. Unreasonable? With infinite time and universes, what does ‘unreasonable” mean? Great insight.nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Another thing to keep in mind, so long as we're touching on the topic of emergence: The fundamental parts do determine what can be done with them, even on a 'systems level', whatever that may be. I gave the example of taping the cubes into a sphere shape. Try arranging a collection of exclusively black cubes and getting a rainbow color.nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Mung: That was actually the point of my deconstructionist tactic. I've never met an atheist that said they didn't want to believe in a perfect, good, benevoluent god; in fact, every one of them said they wanted such to be true. I said that, too. But if one is a materialist atheist, what is to stop you from believing in just that very thing? One might say, it's not true - but then, what does true mean? What difference does it even make if it is true? Unlikely? With infinite time and universes, all unlikely things come to pass. Unreasonable? With infinite time and universes, what does 'unreasonable" mean? If one is only concerned with "what works" or "practical results" in terms of "what make one experience a happy and more satisfied life", I don't see how it can get much better than the theistic premise I offered above. Evem materialist pragmatism leads to theism.William J. Murray
July 5, 2011
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I bet I'd be fun to argue with. :)Mung
July 5, 2011
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If I deny the existence of God, can't I pretty much believe whatever I want, and even change those beliefs at will, and care not one whit about consistency and coherency? Heck, I could even believe in god one moment and not believe in the next.Mung
July 5, 2011
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Well, on another thread a number of people (perhaps you weren’t one of them) made the claim that objective morality wasn’t possible under atheism. And I think it’s relevant. I’m not saying that “love emerges” because I “feel really strongly about it”. I think it emerges as a direct logical consequence of figuring out what benefits everybody – the Golden Rule makes logical sense. First of all, I did not say that "love emerges" only because you "feel really strongly about it". I said your morality does not become objective just because you feel really strongly about it. With regards to "love emerges", I pointed out that "hate emerges", "death emerges", "power emerges" - the list goes on. As for 'making logical sense' - the Golden Rule in question is 'do unto others what you would have done unto you', correct? But saying that 'makes logical sense' adds up to saying it isn't self-contradictory in and of itself. So what? 'Might makes right' also makes logical sense. 'Do as thou wilt' makes logical sense. Of course you could decide that “what benefits everybody” isn’t a Good. But it’s as good a definition of Good as I can find. I certainly don’t think theism has an objective alternative, and even Jesus told us to use our common sense rather than blindly follow a set of religious rules. And here we go again. It's 'as good a definition of Good as' you can find, because the measuring stick here is what makes you feel good or what you feel strongly about. You're treating the objective in objective morality as a prize you award to whatever moral commands you favor the most - the winner gets to be called 'objective'. Nor did Jesus "tell us to follow our common sense" - plenty of Christ's teachings arguably flew in the face of 'common sense' - nor is that the alternative to blindly following rules. Christ spoke against treating legalistic rule-following as a means of morality. As for the comparison to theism, that's false - but as another commenter said to you, you don't save your moral system by insisting that theism is worse. If yours falls, yours falls. And I think it's clear that your 'objective morality' isn't objective, and is moral only in the sense that you like it and think others should subscribe to it. Well, you seem to have a box into which you place unpackings of concepts that you don’t like! I think concepts like “Good” are worth unpacking. I don’t think it’s “looking-glassing” I think it’s opening a black box and figuring out what is actually inside. No, I'm more than happy to engage concepts and unpackings I 'dislike'. You, however, have a pink, sparkle-dashed box that you cram every concept you like into, whether or not it fits or is appropriate. So you take on a materialistic atheism and decide that, come hell or high water, you're still going to call certain beliefs or ideas 'objective morality'. You're still going to talk about good and evil. You're welcome to it. I'll just keep pointing out what 'good' and 'evil' are on your worldview: Things you like, and the labels you put on them. You get 'oughts' by saying 'I think this is what we ought to do!' - as if no one thought an individual could make up rules on their own, or that making up rules on one's own becomes "objective morality" so long as the rules sound nice enough. Yes, they do, but I don’t worship them. Incidentally, they also emerge from religion. To the second, it depends on the religion in question and what's meant by 'religion'. First, of course you don't - that's your choice. And that's literally all there is to the decision, 'choice' being such as it is for you. But the problem goes beyond that. You've called yourself a pantheist, and one of the reasons you gave is because 'love emerges from the world'. I'm pointing out quite a lot of other things that emerge from the world. The problem of evil still exists for the pantheist, unless the 'pantheism' is just a little bit of word glitter. Well, I understand that you don’t think “emergence” gets me where I want to go to, but you need to do more than assert it. I think it’s a pretty important concept. Systems-level analysis is, by definition, not “reductionist”, and it tells us things that a reductionist approach can’t tell us. I assume you wouldn’t disagree with this? No, a systems-level analysis is exactly that - a systems-level analysis. Questions of reductionism or anti-reductionism are questions about the natures of things - a person does not avoid reductionism merely by pragmatic analysis or use of useful fictions. Yes, it’s irreducible. If you omit the level of the organisation, you miss the property of the whole. It’s a fairly trivial example, of course, but it’s a fair example. Let me get this straight. You're saying that, in the case of a bunch of cubes taped in a spherical formation and made to roll, that a complete microphysical description of the bunch of cubes and the sphere leaves something out? That if, say, we placed this on the side of a hill, we would not be able to get to the physical behavior of this construct by an exhaustive microphysical investigation/description? That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I guess I’d need to read the whole context. Fair enough. In fact, as I keep saying, I don’t think reductionist materialism works. And in fact, no-one actually uses it in practice. Everyone works at a systems level. Pragmatic decisions and useful fictions do not determine natures. There are materialists who admit that we may never have a complete materialist explanation for this or that - they do not become non-materialists just by admitting as much. And I'm willing to bet a number of scientists, particularly physicists, would deny that they only "work at the systems level". I do, and my answer is “no”. Is this the reply from the pantheist, the strong atheist, the monistic theist, or the faithless? ;) No. Please don’t attribute views to me I don’t hold. I'm not - unless you changed your views in the past view days, I'm pretty much quoting you on what you quoted. Yes, your view does 'give you the warm fuzzies', and yes, it does 'give you everything God did'. Theism (traditional theism) comes with a whole host of problems that simply disappear if you drop the assumption that there’s a Big Guy In Charge. The fact that you think traditional theism amounts to a 'Big Guy in Charge' itself indicates a confusion on your part. And every view has 'problems'. It's whether the problems have solutions that is key. And, I’m delighted to find, you are still left with all the solutions to important problems you had in the first place (like how to behave, for instance). But no more Problem of Evil, no more nonsensical Atonement, no more arbitrary irregularities in the universe, no more wars over whose God has the right rules, no more Saved and Damned. No more fear of death. No, you still have a problem of evil if you're a pantheist, so long as that term is more than glitter and stickers, or unless you don't mind worshipping something which is partially evil, or deny that there is good and evil - in which case theism has no problems either. Fear of death? On Christian theism? Insofar as you have doubt, perhaps. Wars over whose God has the right rules? Funny, I didn't know that was an intrinsic part of theism, much less Christianity, as opposed to a largely secular outcome! Arbitrary irregularities? You mean "the actions of an agent for a purpose"? (It's doubly amusing you throw the 'arbitrary' comment out against theism, since the arbitrary is ultimate under materialism.) The atonement makes plenty of sense, and the question of the saved and the damned is multifaceted and itself is not a 'problem for theism' but an open question. Finally, I think there are plenty of problems for materialism. But I do give credit where credit's do: How to behave? That's an easy question to answer on materialism: "However you like and/or however you will." Very simple.nullasalus
July 5, 2011
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Mung: As I said, I was constrained at the time by a rather limited conceptualization of god, good, evil, and available options. I understand now that for good to exist in any meaningful way, not-good must be present to contextualize it. Anything that is everything is nothing in any significant sense, because it cannot even be seen or experienced as itself. Identity requires both X and not-X, subject and context. IMO, the only way good can exist in any meaningful way, is for not-good to also exist, even if it is in some sense an illusion. Perfect, uniform goodness is like perfect, uniform redness; if all there is is perfect red, the word "red" wouldn't have any significant meaning. Red is a color, if it is the only color, then we cannot even invent the terms "color" or "red", because they would have no referential context.William J. Murray
July 5, 2011
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So, EL: We have established that you would prefer that #2 be true. So, the question becomes: if you would prefer that #2 be true because it would make you happier, why not choose to believe it is true?William J. Murray
July 5, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
What I revere is what I am calling Love – the capacity to transcend the self-centred point of view and to see and feel the world from the point of view of others – to deprioritise the view from the self.
That sounds more like empathy than love. Love acts.
But no more Problem of Evil, no more nonsensical Atonement, no more arbitrary irregularities in the universe, no more wars over whose God has the right rules, no more Saved and Damned. No more fear of death.”
According to Christian theology God is Love. Man has been separated from God. The Atonement is God's way of joining man with Himself. How is the Atonement nonsensical? Meleagar:
When I became an atheist, I wanted to believe in a world without any god that would allow innocent children to be harmed.
One could deny God. One could take action upon seeing the plight. What does it take to demonstrate love, to participate in love? Is love really just a nice feeling, or does it require something from us? What would a world without Love look like?Mung
July 5, 2011
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vjt:
I think God can see the future from His perspective; we, being time-bound, cannot.
How can God see something that does not exist? :) You must either hold that God can see that which does not exist, or you must hold that the future does exist.Mung
July 5, 2011
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‘Information’ doesn’t act upon anything, including other information. Rather, information is acted upon … my minds.
I agree information does not act. Other entities act upon receipt of information. But I disagree that only a mind can act upon receipt of information, if that's what you're saying.Mung
July 5, 2011
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