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Logic & First Principles, 21: Insightful intelligence vs. computationalism

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One of the challenges of our day is the commonplace reduction of intelligent, insightful action to computation on a substrate. That’s not just Sci Fi, it is a challenge in the academy and on the street — especially as AI grabs more and more headlines.

A good stimulus for thought is John Searle as he further discusses his famous Chinese Room example:

The Failures of Computationalism
John R. Searle
Department of Philosophy
University of California
Berkeley CA

The Power in the Chinese Room.

Harnad and I agree that the Chinese Room Argument deals a knockout blow to Strong AI, but beyond that point we do not agree on much at all. So let’s begin by pondering the implications of the Chinese Room.

The Chinese Room shows that a system, me for example, could pass the Turing Test for understanding Chinese, for example, and could implement any program you like and still not understand a word of Chinese. Now, why? What does the genuine Chinese speaker have that I in the Chinese Room do not have?

The answer is obvious. I, in the Chinese room, am manipulating a bunch of formal symbols; but the Chinese speaker has more than symbols, he knows what they mean. That is, in addition to the syntax of Chinese, the genuine Chinese speaker has a semantics in the form of meaning, understanding, and mental contents generally.

But, once again, why?

Why can’t I in the Chinese room also have a semantics? Because all I have is a program and a bunch of symbols, and programs are defined syntactically in terms of the manipulation of the symbols.

The Chinese room shows what we should have known all along: syntax by itself is not sufficient for semantics. (Does anyone actually deny this point, I mean straight out? Is anyone actually willing to say, straight out, that they think that syntax, in the sense of formal symbols, is really the same as semantic content, in the sense of meanings, thought contents, understanding, etc.?)

Why did the old time computationalists make such an obvious mistake? Part of the answer is that they were confusing epistemology with ontology, they were confusing “How do we know?” with “What it is that we know when we know?”

This mistake is enshrined in the Turing Test(TT). Indeed this mistake has dogged the history of cognitive science, but it is important to get clear that the essential foundational question for cognitive science is the ontological one: “In what does cognition consist?” and not the epistemological other minds problem: “How do you know of another system that it has cognition?”

What is the Chinese Room about? Searle, again:

Imagine that a person—me, for example—knows no Chinese and is locked in a room with boxes full of Chinese symbols and an instruction book written in English for manipulating the symbols. Unknown to me, the boxes are called “the database” and the instruction book is called “the program.” I am called “the computer.”

People outside the room pass in bunches of Chinese symbols that, unknown to me, are questions. I look up in the instruction book what I am supposed to do and I give back answers in Chinese symbols.

Suppose I get so good at shuffling the symbols and passing out the answers that my answers are indistinguishable from a native Chinese speaker’s. I give every indication of understanding the language despite the fact that I actually don’t understand a word of Chinese.

And if I do not, neither does any digital computer, because no computer, qua computer, has anything I do not have. It has stocks of symbols, rules for manipulating symbols, a system that allows it to rapidly transition from zeros to ones, and the ability to process inputs and outputs. That is it. There is nothing else. [Cf. Jay Richards here.]

What is “strong AI”? Techopedia:

Strong artificial intelligence (strong AI) is an artificial intelligence construct that has mental capabilities and functions that mimic the human brain. In the philosophy of strong AI, there is no essential difference between the piece of software, which is the AI, exactly emulating the actions of the human brain, and actions of a human being, including its power of understanding and even its consciousness.

Strong artificial intelligence is also known as full AI.

In short, Reppert has a serious point:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

This brings up the challenge that computation [on refined rocks] is not rational, insightful, self-aware, semantically based, understanding-driven contemplation:

While this is directly about digital computers — oops, let’s see how they work —

. . . but it also extends to analogue computers (which use smoothly varying signals):

. . . or a neural network:

A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle

A similar approach uses memristors, creating an analogue weighted sum vector-matrix operation:

As we can see, these entities are about manipulating signals through physical interactions, not essentially different from Leibniz’s grinding mill wheels in Monadology 17:

It must be confessed, however, that perception, and that which depends upon it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is to say, by figures and motions. Supposing that there were a machine whose structure produced thought, sensation, and perception, we could conceive of it as increased in size with the same proportions until one was able to enter into its interior, as he would into a mill. Now, on going into it he would find only pieces working upon one another, but never would he find anything to explain perception [[i.e. abstract conception]. It is accordingly in the simple substance, and not in the compound nor in a machine that the perception is to be sought . . .

In short, computationalism falls short.

I add [Fri May 31], that is, computational substrates are forms of general dynamic-stochastic systems and are subject to their limitations:

The alternative is, a supervisory oracle-controlled, significantly free, intelligent and designing bio-cybernetic agent:

As context (HT Wiki) I add [June 10] a diagram of a Model Identification Adaptive Controller . . . which, yes, identifies a model for the plant and updates it as it goes:

MIAC action, notice supervisory control and observation of “visible” outputs fed back to in-loop control and to system ID, where the model creates and updates a model of the plant being controlled. Parallels to the Smith model are obvious.

As I summarised recently:

What we actually observe is:

A: [material computational substrates] –X –> [rational inference]
B: [material computational substrates] —-> [mechanically and/or stochastically governed computation]
C: [intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference]
D: [embodied intelligent agents] —-> [rational, freely chosen, morally governed inference]

The set of observations A through D imply that intelligent agency transcends computation, as their characteristics and capabilities are not reducible to:

– components and their device physics,
– organisation as circuits and networks [e.g. gates, flip-flops, registers, operational amplifiers (especially integrators), ball-disk integrators, neuron-gates and networks, etc],
– organisation/ architecture forming computational circuits, systems and cybernetic entities,
– input signals,
– stored information,
– processing/algorithm execution,
– outputs

It may be useful to add here, a simplified Smith model with an in the loop computational controller and an out of the loop oracle that is supervisory, so that there may be room for pondering the bio-cybernetic system i/l/o the interface of the computational entity and the oracular entity:

The Derek Smith two-tier controller cybernetic model

In more details, per Eng Derek Smith:

So too, we have to face the implication of the necessary freedom for rationality. That is, that our minds are governed by known, inescapable duties to truth, right reason, prudence (so, warrant), fairness, justice etc. Rationality is morally governed, it inherently exists on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap.

That means — on pain of reducing rationality to nihilistic chaos and absurdity — that the gap must be bridged. Post Hume, it is known that that can only be done in the root of reality. Arguably, that points to an inherently good necessary being with capability to found a cosmos. If you doubt, provide a serious alternative under comparative difficulties: ____________

So, as we consider debates on intelligent design, we need to reflect on what intelligence is, especially in an era where computationalism is a dominant school of thought. Yes, we may come to various views, but the above are serious factors we need to take such into account. END

PS: As a secondary exchange developed on quantum issues, I take the step of posting a screen-shot from a relevant Wikipedia clip on the 1999 Delayed choice experiment by Kim et al:

Wiki clip on Kim et al

The layout in a larger scale:

Gaasbeek adds:

Weird, but that’s what we see. Notice, especially, Gaasbeek’s observation on his analysis, that “the experimental outcome (encoded in the combined measurement outcomes) is bound to be the same even if we would measure the idler photon earlier, i.e. before the signal photon by shortening the optical path length of the downwards configuration.” This is the point made in a recent SEP discussion on retrocausality.

PPS: Let me also add, on radio halos:

and, Fraunhoffer spectra:

These document natural detection of quantised phenomena.


Comments
Folks, a substantial issue has been on the table, that should be focal. There is no need for barbed rhetoric. KFkairosfocus
June 12, 2019
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LoL! @ Brother Brainless! YOU are a soiled carpet. (refer to all of your posts)ET
June 11, 2019
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KF, it's time to put your pet sock back in his cage (refer to 306). He is soiling the carpet.Brother Brian
June 11, 2019
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WJM:
Is this how we know things change in dreams? We move around the “matter” of a dream?
The dream exists in our brains which is made of matter.ET
June 11, 2019
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Brother Brian:
do you think WJM actually believes this nonsense, or do you think it more likely that he is trying to see how far he can lead us atheists along an obviously absurd path?
LoL! Look how many people believe the nonsense that blind and mindless processes produced living organisms and the diversity of life on earth! And look, they are trying to see how far they can lead everyone else down that very absurd path. Brother Brian is totally clueless...ET
June 11, 2019
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F/N: WJM in 249 seems to summarise his argument. So, on points: >>249 William J Murray June 10, 2019 at 5:40 am Once we’ve established the exhaustive ontologically and epistemologically mental nature of our experiential reality,>> 1: Referring to the extended Smith model in the OP, we can see that consciousness would be part of the self-aware self moved behaviour of an oracle, but by an interface to brain and thence to wider body, there is no incoherence in an onward interaction with a real, physical world. 2: On theism, that world is a creation, and is the natural domain of our common experience. Such a domain is antecedent to our particular existence. 3: On naturalism, we in effect have -- modulo, emergentism -- the inverse monism, of the physical world. However the inability of computational, composite substrates to sustain rationality radically undermines such monism. >> we can see the sheer folly of making models that include extra-mental commodities and investing in those abstract commodities as independently existing causal agencies.>> 4: This gives mostly perspective and implies appeal to idealistic monism on parsimony. We therefore face the challenges of the ancient but still very live problem of the ONE and the MANY, with its ramifications. 5: The assertion on INDEPENDENTLY existing causal agencies is not quite right. Independent of us and our particular error-prone and often causally ineffective notions, yes . . . if wishes were hoses, beggars would own stables . . . but that is very different from what sounds like a clock-winder characterisation of an utterly independent natural, physical world. We are by no means locked up to idealism or monism. 6: It seems apt to draw upon Plato in The Laws Bk X as he discusses first, self-moved cause, chains of consequent effects, life and soul -- and yes, we here delve into philosophy, not of my choice but to respond to serious questions taken seriously:
Cle. You are right; but I should like to know how this happens. Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular. Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir. Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods. Cle. Still I do not understand you. Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word "nature" wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
>>It is folly for several reasons. First, it reifies an abstract model as the cause of what the model describes. >> 7: Reminder, to reify is:
reify Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia. re·i·fy (r???-f??, r??-) tr.v. re·i·fied, re·i·fy·ing, re·i·fies To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence. [Latin r?s, r?-, thing; see r?- in Indo-European roots + -fy.] re?i·fi·ca?tion (-f?-k??sh?n) n. re?i·fi?er n. American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved. reify (?ri???fa?) vb, -fies, -fying or -fied (tr) to consider or make (an abstract idea or concept) real or concrete [C19: from Latin r?s thing; compare deify] ?reifi?cation n ?reifi?catory adj ?rei?fier n Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014 re•i•fy (?ri ??fa?, ?re?-) v.t. -fied, -fy•ing. to convert into or regard as a concrete thing: to reify a concept. [1850–55; < Latin r?(s) thing + -ify] re`i•fi•ca?tion, n. Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
8: This seems to beg the question by positing that we in effect live in a Plato's cave where our in-common world is a shadow show on the wall, a sort of simulation, similar to the notion that on a grand multiverse, the most plausible explanation for the perceived world shared with others is that a Boltzmann brain by fluctuation of the underlying quantum foam has popped into composite being, programmed with a simulation of a world perceived but which has no reality in concrete sense beyond the somehow simulation. 9: In short, we already see the critical foundational crack: grand delusion at level 1. But then once loosed, level 2 delusion beckons, that this level 1 perception is itself delusion, thence levels 3, 4 ad infinitum. 10: We can take as a first principle of responsible rationality comparable to the law of distinct identity and its corollaries (LNC, LEM, number, etc) that a scheme of thought reducing to a grand delusion is absurdly self defeating by utterly undermining rationality. 11: We could stop here, but it is important to continue. 12: Now, one of the tainted fruit of modernity is the dismissal of abstracta, even though without resort to such, we can neither think nor communicate. Instead we can take it that per logic of being in any possible world, certain abstracta must obtain, starting with the panoply of numbers. These constrain what is possible of being. In a simple case, there is no world where we will but obtain: || + ||| -> |||||. 13: Many intangible and abstract things are real, not just internalised mouth noises running on wetware. Absent that, including things like meaning and understanding, implication and import, rationality collapses. Reppert, again, is helpful:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
14: This is of course an answer to evolutionary materialistic scientism, but its force is general. Abstracta can be as real as concrete particulars like the labelled keys I am using, just they are real in a different, characteristically mental way. Contemplation and recognition by mind, tied to being integral to the logic of being. 15: For instance, consider a possible world W distinct from a near neighbour W' because of some aspect A, so W = {A|~A}, thus we see simple and complex unity [A vs ~A], duality [A with the distinct ~A] and nullity [partition is empty]. From this numbers come, {] --> 0, {0} --> 1, {0,1} --> 2 and so on by unlimited succession, thence N, Z, Q, R, C, and transfinites thence hyperreals and surreals. 16: None of these is concrete, none can be found in some ghostly repository but we can see they are necessary entities and that they are discovered not invented in the sense of not existing until we come along and first think of them as figments of our imagination. (I of course do not exclude their being eternally contemplated by world root, necessary being mind.) 17: So, no, we can and credibly do have abstract and concrete entities that are antecedent to our thinking about them, and we have no good reason to dismiss the physical world as not being just that, objectively real regardless ow what we think. >>Second, it generates intractable problems like the hard problem of consciousness (personal experience being ** caused** by physical commodities that have no inherent capacity to cause any such thing, or – the hard problem of personal experience).>> 18: Consider again the extended Smith Model. There is no intractable problem of consciousness arising from interactions of a computational substrate. All that problem does is it exposes the bankruptcy of materialism. But materialism and mentalism as opposed monisms do not exhaust our options. >>Hazel’s speculation (and other have speculated this) that the “material world” and “mind” are phenomena generated by an “unknowable,” mysterious deeper substrate is a form of this cognitive error – reifying a model as an independently existing cause (and, it further suffers from sheer lack of predictive or explanatory capacity – basically, it’s a cognitive dodge).>> 19: Again, not relevant. See extended Smith model i/l/o Reppert etc. >>KF (and others capable of following a logical argument): Let’s follow the logic of “external reality” further. What is one of the reasons (perhaps the most important one) that we theorize an external, consistent world in the first place?>> 20: We experience an objective in common reality, in-common mass delusions are implausible, we have no reason to reduce the world to a computational simulation or dream. Such would all reduce to grand delusion, axiomatically an absurdity. >> It is the apparent consensuality of experiences between observers.>> 21: No, it is not agreement that is primary, but evidence that the world is, despite what we imagine or desire, fear or wish. Surprises like quantum theory are a good case in point. 22: And BTW, we are seeing what has happened to our civilisation as it abandoned its Judaeo-Christian heritage, we are wandering, helplessly into questions we don't have a clue how to resolve and rebuild a sound consensus on. >> IOW, whatever one theorizes is the ultimate nature of a tree, different observers experience “the tree” in a very similar fashion – where it is, the colors of the leaves and bark, its basic structure, etc. The theory claims that the independent nature of the tree (independent from mind) is causing fairly universal mental states in all observers.>> 23: The best explanation for the breadfruit tree experiences on going out the front door, is, the real breadfruit tree. Similarly, the banana tree, the Christmas Palm tree, the mango tree, the Avocado, the cashew, etc. >> We’ll skip the model reification issue here>> 24: Already answered. >> and go another route: think about what you’ve just proposed: an independent, non-mental commodity has caused a particular mental state/experience in all observers.>> 25: The best explanation for the breadfruit tree experiences on going out the front door, is, the real breadfruit tree. Similarly, the banana tree, the Christmas Palm tree, the mango tree, the Avocado, the cashew, etc. Observers come and go, or may err, the trees are there. 26: Also, the independence is independence from our error-prone opinions and perceptions. >>However you slice it, you are promoting a materialist principle: that mental states can be caused by independently existing non-mental commodities. >> 27: Nope, this is not materialism. That we have organs and senses capable of working to provide a body of information recognised and understood as a world does not imply that the world has been reduced to a simulation or model. 28: Agaim refer to the extended Smith Model. >>You’ve reduced us to being externally-caused entities>> 29: causal influence is not causal determinism. Yes, our senses respond to the external world and generate signals in differing ways that are integrated to form an understanding of ourselves in the world, that on sound common sense we take very seriously. That is not the same as that those determine our actions, we are self-moved. >> and you’ve effectively given up free will. >> 30: Not at all, again see the extended Smith Model. Plato long ago got this right. >>There is no escaping the self-annihilating logical consequences of the premise that mental states can be caused by external commodities.>> 31: Are causally influenced by is not deterministic. We perceive, we act, we respond. 32: It further seems we need to clarify cause. That an external entity is sensed and is interacted with does not entail that it controls us. Our eyes or ears for example are designed to sense and feed processing that assembles a gestalt, thence a world-picture. This is a mostly reliable though sometimes defective cybernetic subsystem. That does not determine what the supervisory oracle will do. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2019
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PS: p. 741 of 1304. After a break, I turn to WJM. I may have to cross-reference as there is now a second thread.kairosfocus
June 11, 2019
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F/N: While waiting on an OCR to complete (third try) let's look at a further case, Quantum Information theory. The heart of this, is the Qubit, which can have a phased superposition of definable 0 and 1 states, continuously across the surface of the unit radius Bloch sphere; giving three degrees of freedom. This is radically different from the classical bit which is in 0/1 states, discretely. This means Qubits are radically distinct from ordinary bits. In quantum mechanics, the general quantum state of a qubit can be represented by a linear superposition of its two orthonormal basis states (or basis vectors). These vectors are usually denoted as |0> = [ 1, 0 ] -column vector and |1> = [ 0 1 ] col-vec again, i.e. we are effectively using complex numbers on the vector understanding. However, that does not cover the full story as combinations of qubits require adding two dimensions to the vector per additional qubit. They are written in the conventional Dirac—or "bra–ket"—notation; the |0> and |1> are pronounced "ket 0" and "ket 1." Extending, the bra half denotes the corresponding row vector, but that interferes with HTML coding so let me denote {a|b> which is the inner or scalar product of vectors; we can take an outer product also. In physics these can be expressed in many ways, representing even transfinite dimensionality. A Qubit state is a weighted combination of the |0> and |1> states: |s> = a |0> + b |1> where a and b can in general be complex numbers. These are constrained by the requirement that a^2 + b^2 = 1, which is the superposition rule allowing probabilistic interpretation and viewing a and b as probability wave amplitudes. Here, let us recognise that probabilities are indexes of ignorance, so this boils down to saying that an unresolved qubit state is uncertain across the surface of the bloch sphere, with three degrees of freedom due to the probability sum constraint.All this points back to Copenhagen. Where, a powerful and compact symbolism is always useful. Unfortunately, it gives trouble with HTML. Greek letters and special characters add to our woes. Going on to Quantum info theory, again Wiki is helpful in what is now a mini tutorial in order to address a one liner claim . . . the rhetorical advantage of hurling an elephant is plain. But, at some point, enough has to be addressed cogently to resolve the balance on merits. I did not pick this place or time -- which, RW is extremely inconvenient -- or throw the first rhetorical punch but I will take enough time to resolve enough that the overall picture will be clear:
In physics and computer science, quantum information is the information of the state of a quantum system. It is the basic entity of study in quantum information theory,[1] and can be manipulated using quantum information processing techniques. Quantum information refers to both the technical definition in terms of Von Neumann entropy and the general computational term. Quantum Information, like classical information, can be processed using digital computers, transmitted from one location to another, manipulated with algorithms, and analyzed with the computer science mathematics. In recent history, the field has Quantum computing has become an active research area because of the possibility to disrupt modern computation, communication, and cryptography . . . . Quantum information differs strongly from classical information, epitomized by the bit, in many striking and unfamiliar ways. While the fundamental unit of classical information is the bit, the most basic unit of quantum information is the qubit. Classical information is measured using Shannon Entropy, while the quantum mechanical analogue is Von Neumann entropy. Given a statistical ensemble of quantum mechanical systems with the density matrix d, it is given by S ( d ) = ? Tr ? ( d ln ? d ) . [--> this is obviously related to the weighted sum probability measure for entropy and information] [1] Many of the same entropy measures in classical information theory can also be generalized to the quantum case, such as Holevo entropy[2] and the conditional quantum entropy. Unlike classical digital states (which are discrete), a qubit is continuous-valued, describable by a direction on the Bloch sphere. Despite being continuously valued in this way, a qubit is the smallest possible unit of quantum information, as despite the qubit state being continuously-valued, it is impossible to measure the value precisely. Three famous theorems describe the limits on manipulation of quantum information.[1] 1: no-teleportation theorem, which states that a qubit cannot be (wholly) converted into classical bits; that is, it cannot be "read". 2: no cloning theorem, which prevents an arbitrary qubit from being copied. 3: no-deleting theorem, which prevents an arbitrary qubit from being deleted. 4: no-broadcast theorem, Although a single qubit can be transported from place to place (e.g. via quantum teleportation), it cannot be delivered to multiple recipients. These theorems prove that quantum information within the universe is conserved. They open up possibilities in quantum information processing. Quantum Information Processing The state of a qubit contains all of its information. This state is frequently expressed as a vector on the Bloch sphere. This state can be changed by applying linear transformations or quantum gates to them. These Unitary transformation (quantum mechanics) are described as rotations on the Bloch Sphere. While classical gates correspond to the familiar operations of Boolean logic, quantum gates are physical unitary operators. Due to the volatility of quantum systems and the impossibility of copying states, the storing of quantum information is much more difficult than storing classical information. Nevertheless, with the use of quantum error correction quantum information can still be reliably stored in principle. The existence of quantum error correcting codes has also led to the possibility of fault tolerant quantum computation. Classical bits can be encoded into and subsequently retrieved from configurations of qubits, through the use of quantum gates. By itself, a single qubit can convey no more than one bit of accessible classical information about its preparation. This is Holevo's theorem. However, in superdense coding a sender, by acting on one of two entangled qubits, can convey two bits of accessible information about their joint state to a receiver. Quantum information can be moved about, in a quantum channel, analogous to the concept of a classical communications channel. Quantum messages have a finite size, measured in qubits; quantum channels have a finite channel capacity, measured in qubits per second. Quantum information, and changes in quantum information, can be quantitatively measured by using an analogue of Shannon entropy, called the von Neumann entropy. In some cases quantum algorithms can be used to perform computations faster than in any known classical algorithm. The most famous example of this is Shor's algorithm that can factor numbers in polynomial time, compared to the best classical algorithms that take sub-exponential time. As factorization is an important part of the safety of RSA encryption, Shor's algorithm sparked the new field of post-quantum cryptography that tries to find encryption schemes that remain safe even when quantum computers are in play. Other examples of algorithms that demonstrate quantum supremacy include Grover's search algorithm, where the quantum algorithm gives a quadratic speed-up over the best possible classical algorithm. The complexity class of problems efficiently solvable by a quantum computer is known as BQP. Quantum key distribution (QKD) allows unconditionally secure transmission of classical information, unlike classical encryption, which can always be broken in principle, if not in practice. Do note that certain subtle points regarding the safety of QKD are still hotly debated. The study of all of the above topics and differences comprises quantum information theory. Relation to quantum mechanics Quantum mechanics is the study of how microscopic physical systems change dynamically in nature. In the field of quantum information theory, the quantum systems studied are abstracted away from any real world counterpart. A qubit might for instance physically be a photon in a linear optical quantum computer, an ion in a trapped ion quantum computer, or it might be a large collection of atoms as in a superconducting quantum computer. Regardless of the physical implementation, the limits and features of qubits implied by quantum information theory hold as all these systems are all mathematically described by the same apparatus of density matrices over the complex numbers. Another important difference with quantum mechanics is that, while quantum mechanics often studies infinite-dimensional systems such as a harmonic oscillator, quantum information theory concerns both with continuous-variable systems [3] and finite-dimensional systems [4] [5][6] .
When BA77 took up QIT, he did so in connexion with Maxwell's Demon, which forces an additional in a nutshell. The idea is that Max is at a gate of a two-chamber gas cylinder say [ chcch | ______ ] at first. Gas molecules are slow [c] or fast [h], and Max somewhow observes molecules flying towards the gate. If h and heading R-wards he opens it so eventually we have: [ ccc | hh] We can then couple a heat engine to the two chambers and extract work from information. Though, we can see from the discussion on kinematics that work is forced ORDERLY motion, i.e. it is inherently informational.Szilard long since showed that the extra work of detecting the state of h, c molecules etc leads to preservation of 2nd law of thermodynamics. Max does not do his detections and info processing or gate opening and shutting for free in terms of energy, and someone has to pay the energy source and degradation bills. There are no free lunches for energy and information. Creating info is work, and work is paid for. Pondering the expanded Smith Model, work beyond the FSCO/I threshold demands not only machines and energy but intelligence to create the information rich order or organisation more properly. Piles of building materials do not spontaneously transform themselves into houses. So, clipping 143:
in the following 2010 experimental realization of Maxwell’s demon thought experiment, it was demonstrated that knowledge of a particle’s location and/or position turns information into energy.
Maxwell’s demon demonstration turns information into energy – November 2010 Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....nergy.html
And as the following 2010 article stated about the preceding experiment, “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,”
Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010 Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican......rts-inform
And as the following 2017 article states: James Clerk Maxwell (said), “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.”,,, quantum information theory,,, describes the spread of information through quantum systems.,,, Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,,
The Quantum Thermodynamics Revolution – May 2017 Excerpt: the 19th-century physicist James Clerk Maxwell put it, “The idea of dissipation of energy depends on the extent of our knowledge.” In recent years, a revolutionary understanding of thermodynamics has emerged that explains this subjectivity using quantum information theory — “a toddler among physical theories,” as del Rio and co-authors put it, that describes the spread of information through quantum systems. Just as thermodynamics initially grew out of trying to improve steam engines, today’s thermodynamicists are mulling over the workings of quantum machines. Shrinking technology — a single-ion engine and three-atom fridge were both experimentally realized for the first time within the past year — is forcing them to extend thermodynamics to the quantum realm, where notions like temperature and work lose their usual meanings, and the classical laws don’t necessarily apply. They’ve found new, quantum versions of the laws that scale up to the originals. Rewriting the theory from the bottom up has led experts to recast its basic concepts in terms of its subjective nature, and to unravel the deep and often surprising relationship between energy and information — the abstract 1s and 0s by which physical states are distinguished and knowledge is measured.,,, Renato Renner, a professor at ETH Zurich in Switzerland, described this as a radical shift in perspective. Fifteen years ago, “we thought of entropy as a property of a thermodynamic system,” he said. “Now in (quantum) information theory, we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”,,, https://www.quantamagazine.org/quantum-thermodynamics-revolution/
Again to repeat that last sentence, “we wouldn’t say entropy is a property of a system, but a property of an observer who describes a system.”
This is little more than is in a clip from Harry S Robertson in my longstanding note (and yes, statistical thermodynamics is the road I travelled to arrive at recognising the soundness of the design inference on FSCO/I):
Summarising Harry Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics (Prentice-Hall International, 1993) -- excerpting desperately and adding emphases and explanatory comments, we can see, perhaps, that this should not be so surprising after all. (In effect, since we do not possess detailed knowledge of the states of the vary large number of microscopic particles of thermal systems [typically ~ 10^20 to 10^26; a mole of substance containing ~ 6.023*10^23 particles; i.e. the Avogadro Number], we can only view them in terms of those gross averages we term thermodynamic variables [pressure, temperature, etc], and so we cannot take advantage of knowledge of such individual particle states that would give us a richer harvest of work, etc.) For, as he astutely observes on pp. vii - viii: . . . the standard assertion that molecular chaos exists is nothing more than a poorly disguised admission of ignorance, or lack of detailed information about the dynamic state of a system . . . . If I am able to perceive order, I may be able to use it to extract work from the system, but if I am unaware of internal correlations, I cannot use them for macroscopic dynamical purposes. On this basis, I shall distinguish heat from work, and thermal energy from other forms . . . And, in more details, (pp. 3 - 6, 7, 36, cf Appendix 1 below for a more detailed development of thermodynamics issues and their tie-in with the inference to design; also see recent ArXiv papers by Duncan and Samura here and here): . . . It has long been recognized that the assignment of probabilities to a set represents information, and that some probability sets represent more information than others . . . if one of the probabilities say p2 is unity and therefore the others are zero, then we know that the outcome of the experiment . . . will give [event] y2. Thus we have complete information . . . if we have no basis . . . for believing that event yi is more or less likely than any other [we] have the least possible information about the outcome of the experiment . . . . A remarkably simple and clear analysis by Shannon [1948] has provided us with a quantitative measure of the uncertainty, or missing pertinent information, inherent in a set of probabilities [NB: i.e. a probability different from 1 or 0 should be seen as, in part, an index of ignorance] . . . . [deriving informational entropy, cf. discussions here, here, here, here and here; also Sarfati's discussion of debates and the issue of open systems here . . . ] H({pi}) = - C [SUM over i] pi*ln pi, [. . . "my" Eqn 6] [where [SUM over i] pi = 1, and we can define also parameters alpha and beta such that: (1) pi = e^-[alpha + beta*yi]; (2) exp [alpha] = [SUM over i](exp - beta*yi) = Z [Z being in effect the partition function across microstates, the "Holy Grail" of statistical thermodynamics]. . . . [H], called the information entropy, . . . correspond[s] to the thermodynamic entropy [i.e. s, where also it was shown by Boltzmann that s = k ln w], with C = k, the Boltzmann constant, and yi an energy level, usually ei, while [BETA] becomes 1/kT, with T the thermodynamic temperature . . . A thermodynamic system is characterized by a microscopic structure that is not observed in detail . . . We attempt to develop a theoretical description of the macroscopic properties in terms of its underlying microscopic properties, which are not precisely known. We attempt to assign probabilities to the various microscopic states . . . based on a few . . . macroscopic observations that can be related to averages of microscopic parameters. Evidently the problem that we attempt to solve in statistical thermophysics is exactly the one just treated in terms of information theory. It should not be surprising, then, that the uncertainty of information theory becomes a thermodynamic variable when used in proper context . . . . Jayne's [summary rebuttal to a typical objection] is ". . . The entropy of a thermodynamic system is a measure of the degree of ignorance of a person whose sole knowledge about its microstate consists of the values of the macroscopic quantities . . . which define its thermodynamic state. This is a perfectly 'objective' quantity . . . it is a function of [those variables] and does not depend on anybody's personality. There is no reason why it cannot be measured in the laboratory." . . . . [pp. 3 - 6, 7, 36; replacing Robertson's use of S for Informational Entropy with the more standard H.]
In short, naturally occurring or lab made detectors are possible. Thus, clearly, the root problem is conflation of observation with conscious observers. Likewise, that quantum states may be superposed and reflect ignorance until resolved, thus probability amplitude waves, does not imply that the resolution requires direct action of a conscious observer. Radio halos and fraunhoffer lines in stellar spectra answer to that decisively. This brings us right back to the OP's point about noncomputational, non composite supervisory oracles and bio cybernetic entities. At this point, I think the point is sufficiently made. KF KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2019
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F/N: Further following up on quantum claims, for record. Recall, RW constraints, so one step at a time. Wikipedia is again handy (and on this sort of topic does not tend to pull in trolls):
The Leggett–Garg inequality,[1] named for Anthony James Leggett and Anupam Garg, is a mathematical inequality fulfilled by all macrorealistic physical theories. Here, macrorealism (macroscopic realism) is a classical worldview defined by the conjunction of two postulates:[1] 1] Macrorealism per se: "A macroscopic object, which has available to it two or more macroscopically distinct states, is at any given time in a definite one of those states." 2] Noninvasive measurability: "It is possible in principle to determine which of these states the system is in without any effect on the state itself, or on the subsequent system dynamics."
A macro-level system of course has two different kinds of state (from a statistical thermodynamics, phase space perspective). A macrostate that is based on macro, collective variables such as temperature, pressure, volume etc, and usually a great many microstates associated therewith that in principle relate to ststes of its constituent microparticles consistent with a macrostate, where thermodynamic equilibrium is associated with the clusters of microstates with the highest statistical weight. From this, we may recognise that entropy is definable as a metric of average degree of missing info to specify particular microstate on observing [in principle] macrostate. In short, states and systems tend to have fuzzy borders, but we can for many purposes identify a system and its state with sufficient precision and distinguishability to practice physics and engineering. And yes, law of identity is relevant. Especially, when the issue is, a system with an unambiguous state. . So, the notion of state is already subtle. As to state characterisation and observability [including, monitoring with instruments], it gets even more complicated. For, state variables may be discrete or continuous (for practical purposes) and it is widely acknowledged that many measurements effect small perturbations, e.g. electrical instruments. In cases where sensitive dependence to initial conditions obtains, that may have radical effects, as state path then migrates unpredictably even for an ideal deterministic system. Factor in noise and things can get hairy for a dynamic-stochastic system. So, the L-G inequality test, to a certain degree, may set up a straw picture of classical macrosystems. And as measurement is involved, one cannot simply say that measurement is non-invasive or non perturbing. There is a difference between mathematical idealisation where we can see variables and how they interact and actually setting up and observing a physical entity. Quantum systems, notoriously, have uncertainty relationships and interactions can involve even space itself, as the Casimir effect shows. Or, with a rock matrix, etc. I find an Arxiv review:
Leggett-Garg Inequalities Draft: 31 January 2014 Clive Emary Department of Physics and Mathematics, University of Hull, Kingsto n-upon-Hull, HU6 7RX, United Kingdom Neill Lambert CEMS, RIKEN, Saitama, 351-0198, Japan Franco Nori CEMS, RIKEN, Saitama, 351-0198, Japan Physics Department, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109- 1040, USA Abstract. In contrast to the spatial Bell’s inequalities which probe entanglement between spatially-separated systems, the Leggett-Garg inequalities test the correlations of a single system measured at different times. Violation of a genuine Leggett-Garg test implies either the absence of a realistic description of the system or the impossibility of measuring the system without disturbing it. Quantum mechanics violates the inequalities on both accounts and the original motivation for these in equalities was as a test for quantum coherence in macroscopic systems. The last few years has seen a number of experimental tests and violations of these inequalities in a variety of microscopic systems such as superconducting qubits, nuclear spins, and photons. In this article, we provide an introduction to the Leggett-Garg inequalities and review these latest experimental developments. We discuss important topics such as the significance of the non-invasive measurability assumption, the clumsiness loophole, and the role of weak measurements. Also covered are some recent theoretical proposals for the application of Leggett-Garg inequalities in quantum transport, quantum biology and nano-mechanical systems.
In 141 above, BA77:
the following violation of Leggett’s inequality stressed the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it.
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
The Mind First and/or Theistic implications of quantum experiments such as the preceding are fairly obvious. As Professor Scott Aaronson of MIT once quipped, “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists,,, But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!”
Of course, this is little more than the issue of resolution of states in quantum systems. That can be by intervention of a conscious observer (note, how I have argued in respect of the brain as computational substrate) or it can be by interaction with various detectors, including something as simple as having U-238 bearing minerals embedded in a rock matrix and generating concentric radio-halos or light passing through outer layers of a star and thus creating absorption lines, cf. the illustrations appended to the OP. I again note, the non-computability of actually freely rational mind (multiplied by the self-discrediting import of implying that our minds are unfree by being computational substrates) is a more promising context of discussion. Taking up theistic views, scripture such as that in Him we live, move and have our being, or that he upholds all things by His powerful word, etc or concepts such as God's omniscience or power to act out of the usual course of events and processes for good cause are not undermined by noting that there are lawlike regularities and stochastic processes at work. It is not deism or naturalism to observe and hold beliefs about orderly, regular, predictable patterns in a world created by the God of order. Indeed, absent order, we could not operate rationally as acts and reasoning would be unpredictably chaotic. Consequently we could not be morally responsible. Proteins, D/RNA etc would be unpredictable and cell based life would be impossible. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2019
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SB: I would argue that the truth of the matter should be our first consideration, since it seems evident that, in principle, knowledge is better than ignorance. Then there is the equally important point that some kinds of knowledge are more important than others. WM
Unless you can explain (1) how one could know the truth value of the existence of external matter even in principle, and (2)why knowledge that external matter (or whatever it is) exists could be significant even in principle, then – as I’ve laid out in a prior thread, whether or not “matter” (or anything external to mental experience) exists is 100% irrelevant epistemologically and ontologically.
I certainly don't need to explain why, in principle, knowing the truth about anything is better than not knowing it. The point is obvious. If one is wrong about his understanding of the world, he will make unwise decisions about what to think and how to live. I am surprised you would question the point. Meanwhile, I have already provided several examples about why the existence of matter could be or would be an important element for knowing the truth. Again, I am asking this these simple questions: please explain how you can detect a design pattern in nature in the absence of matter. For that matter, please explain how, in the absence of matter, you can know the difference between a dog and a cat.
That statement is so bundled up in external-world assumption it’s incoherent from a mental-reality perspective. But, that’s common, when people don’t understand the basics of a thing but attempt to dive right into what the concept means.
My statement is not bundled up with external-world assumptions. You seem to be confusing *your* claim (the quantum phenomenon justifies the claim that matter doesn't exist) with *my* claim (if extra-mental reality doesn't exist, then the only reality left to know about is our own consciousness and experience), The latter is a simple logical truth that cannot be escaped. If you can sort out the difference between your claim and my claim, you will be more successful at responding to my comment.
It seems to me you don’t know enough about the model to ask a coherent question, much less challenge it or compare it to external world models, StephenB.
Again, you seem to forget that we are discussing your claims and your philosophy. I didn't say anything about the "model." I was responding to your claims about what the model could possibly mean. You will recall that I stated earlier that no one knows the relationship between quantum events and ultimate reality - at least not yet. If you think that your model explains ultimate reality, then it is you, not me, that does not understand it; and it is you, not me, that needs to explain how the phenomenon of quantum physics proves that matter doesn't exist.StephenB
June 10, 2019
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Bogarting! :-)hazel
June 10, 2019
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If anyone cares to continue the mind/matter conversation, I've created a thread so we can stop bogarting KF's.William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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DaveS @ 294: so, every time we are mistaken in our beliefs, we are delusional? Care to provide a source for that definition?William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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He seems to be a combination of ontological idealism and new age woo. That's what it looks like to me. He strongly believes that he is right (but so do bornagain, kf, and at other times StephenB, in respect to their own beliefs). Believe or not I'm closer to kf on all this than wjm or ba. Amusing thread to mildly participate in.hazel
June 10, 2019
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BB, I'm pretty certain he "believes" it. That apparently has little to do with whether he judges it to be true, on the other hand.daveS
June 10, 2019
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DaveS, do you think WJM actually believes this nonsense, or do you think it more likely that he is trying to see how far he can lead us atheists along an obviously absurd path?Brother Brian
June 10, 2019
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WJM, Deluded: believing something that is not true.daveS
June 10, 2019
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Dave@ at 292 said:
Most of us believe that matter exists, and consider that to be quite obvious. If matter does not exist, then we are deluded.
No, Dave. It just means you're mistaken.William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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WJM, Most of us believe that matter exists, and consider that to be quite obvious. If matter does not exist, then we are deluded.daveS
June 10, 2019
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DaveS @289 said:
If matter does not exist, that would mean that we (most of us) are under one heckuva grand delusion. That would be of great interest to me.
If matter does not exist, why would that mean we are living in a grand delusion? StephenB said:
I would argue that the truth of the matter should be our first consideration, since it seems evident that, in principle, knowledge is better than ignorance. Then there is the equally important point that some kinds of knowledge are more important than others.
Unless you can explain (1) how one could know the truth value of the existence of external matter even in principle, and (2)why knowledge that external matter (or whatever it is) exists could be significant even in principle, then - as I've laid out in a prior thread, whether or not "matter" (or anything external to mental experience) exists is 100% irrelevant epistemologically and ontologically.
If we are merely projecting our own consciousness onto the world, as opposed to apprehending the world as an extra-mental reality, we cannot really know anything worth knowing. We can only know ourselves – and in a very limited way.
That statement is so bundled up in external-world assumption it's incoherent from a mental-reality perspective. But, that's common, when people don't understand the basics of a thing but attempt to dive right into what the concept means.
In the absence of matter, how do I know that the cat I thought I just experienced is really nothing more than a green ball of slime, or worse, just a figment of my imagination. I submit that it is through matter that we come to learn most of what we know – by understanding a things *whatness* and its *nature,* not by their studying its atomic or subatomic structure.
It seems to me you don't know enough about the model to ask a coherent question, much less challenge it or compare it to external world models, StephenB.
In the absence of matter, how can we explain the phenomenon of change? How does the intelligent agent refashion the wood from a tree into the siding of a house if there is no such thing as wood? How would we even know that a change had been made, except by knowing that matter has been rearranged? Or, to extend that point further, how can I detect the design in a sand castle if there is no such thing as a grain of sand?
Is this how we know things change in dreams? We move around the "matter" of a dream? I get the feeling you're not even trying, Stephen, which is fine. I know first-hand how exhausting and confusing it can be.William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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WJM asks,
Okay – can I get an answer to the following question: What difference does it make if matter exists or not? And if it makes no difference, what’s the point in pursuing the truth of the matter?
I would argue that the truth of the matter should be our first consideration, since it seems evident that, in principle, knowledge is better than ignorance. Then there is the equally important point that some kinds of knowledge are more important than others. If we are merely projecting our own consciousness onto the world, as opposed to apprehending the world as an extra-mental reality, we cannot really know anything worth knowing. We can only know ourselves – and in a very limited way. In the absence of matter, how do I know that the cat I thought I just experienced is really nothing more than a green ball of slime, or worse, just a figment of my imagination. I submit that it is through matter that we come to learn most of what we know - by understanding a things *whatness* and its *nature,* not by their studying its atomic or subatomic structure. In the absence of matter, how can we explain the phenomenon of change? How does the intelligent agent refashion the wood from a tree into the siding of a house if there is no such thing as wood? How would we even know that a change had been made, except by knowing that matter has been rearranged? Or, to extend that point further, how can I detect the design in a sand castle if there is no such thing as a grain of sand?StephenB
June 10, 2019
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WJM,
Okay – can I get an answer to the following question: What difference does it make if matter exists or not? And if it makes no difference, what’s the point in pursuing the truth of the matter?
If matter does not exist, that would mean that we (most of us) are under one heckuva grand delusion. That would be of great interest to me.daveS
June 10, 2019
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Brother Brian:
I am trying to wrap my tiny little mind around WJM’s belief that matter does not exist until it is observed by some consciousness.
I would think that the Intelligent Designer would qualify. It doesn't have to be us. How's life in your little box?ET
June 10, 2019
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Hazel, thanks for the correction. I need a program to tell the characters apart.Brother Brian
June 10, 2019
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BB, you are getting the players mixed up. It is ba who thinks that matter, such as it is, for the appropriate definition of "matter", doesn't exist until it is observed by some consciousness. wjm thinks that matter doesn't exist, period. kf, and even more StephenB, believe that matter does exist irrespective of anyone's consciousness.hazel
June 10, 2019
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I am trying to wrap my tiny little mind around WJM's belief that matter does not exist until it is observed by some consciousness. Does this mean that Kepler's Supernova (which was observed in 1604), did not actually occur until it was observed in 1604? That would be interesting because in was 20,000 light years from earth, which means that it had to have happened roughly 18,400 years before it was actually detected by a human consciousness. Or that the thousands of galaxies that were detected by pointing the Hubble telescope towards a dark piece of the sky didn't exist until that time, even though it took millions of years for their light to reach us.Brother Brian
June 10, 2019
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DaveS, Okay - can I get an answer to the following question: What difference does it make if matter exists or not? And if it makes no difference, what's the point in pursuing the truth of the matter? (ooopss ... pun not intended!)William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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WJM,
To state even more succinctly, your enthusiasm doesn’t stem from an interest in truth per se, but rather stems from the desire to dislodge others from what you consider to be false truths. I don’t know of any other rational inference given you are not enthusiastic about discussing the model unless I am committed to it as true.
The issue is that I am interested in whether matter truly exists or not. I don't care so much about whether this model is "useful", etc. We would therefore be talking about two different things.daveS
June 10, 2019
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Dave @280, Another interesting comment. My inference is that you are interested in knowing or pursuing knowledge about the truth of your existence - what you are, how you exist, what you are, the nature of your experiences, what they are, etc. What I don't understand is why my lack of commitment to the "truth" value of the model I propose would decrease your enthusiasm for understanding and debating the proposed model in order to ascertain whether or not you might find any truth value in it. It seems to me that the reason for your loss of enthusiasm for the discussion isn't related to whether or not the model itself has truth value for you personally (perhaps you've already concluded it does not), but rather requires that **I** am invested in it as true. To shorten that up: it seems you're relatively disinterested in the potential truth value of the model and more interested in my commitment to it. The only explanation I can think of for that (inform me otherwise) is if (1) you've already concluded it has no truth value for you (otherwise, you'd be enthusiastic about discussing it whether I held it as true or not), and (2) your enthusiasm stems from a desire to dislodge its (hypothetical) truth value for me. The only other enthusiasm generating option for continuing discussion would be to support or prove its (hypothetical) truth value to me, in which case you would still be enthusiastic since I am not currently invested in it as "truth." To state even more succinctly, your enthusiasm doesn't stem from an interest in truth per se, but rather stems from the desire to dislodge others from what you consider to be false truths. I don't know of any other rational inference given you are not enthusiastic about discussing the model unless I am committed to it as true.William J Murray
June 10, 2019
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Amazing discussion!hazel
June 10, 2019
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