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Where do you get the notion there likely have been 800+ million abortions in 40 years from?

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In a current thread that is nominally on the latest allegedly earth-like exoplanet, predictably that is where distractors will come up on things like:

>>[RVB8, 21:] “800 million (unusual figure) unborn aborted fetuses. Perhaps this is true, it’s certainly true abortions have occured, and probably happen at a faster rate now becuse of the ‘day after’ pill.”>>

Of course, equally predictably, this sort of talking point did not crop up in the many threads where I have repeatedly outlined exactly how this estimate was put together. (Such are the now all too predictable patterns of objections and dismissals we see at UD and in the penumbra of attack sites. More on that in the PS.)

I answered in a following comment then went on to try to pull the discussion back on track. I thought, let me answer this for record, and then I realised I should headline my response and allow discussion in a thread where it will be on-topic.

For, the abortion holocaust is perhaps the central sign of what has been happening with our time, and it is directly connected to the implications of evolutionary materialistic scientism, radically secularist humanism and fellow travellers. Clipping:

>>KF, 22:  you and ilk continually monitor UD looking for how to pounce. So, you pretty well know or should know the basis. Planned Parenthood’s Guttmacher Institute reports a global abortion rate 50+million pa. In a recent BBC item, the remark was it had fallen to 52 from 56 mn.

Take 50, multiply by 40 y and by 1/2 for a simple growth model. Slice off 20% to be on the safe side, see where that gets you . . . you fill in the blank: ______ mn . . . since the mid 70’s but to the worst, ongoing holocaust in history, half a generation slaughtered in the womb under false colour of law, perversion of medicine in ways Hippocrates of Cos warned against through the famous oath 2500 years ago, with an enabling media culture and educational elite.

Guilty, guilty, guilty are we.

With the American total now about 60 millions in line with their proportion of the global population.

This is a global failure of civilisation.

One that utterly indicts us as an utterly be-numbed, en-darkened, wicked age.

The further issue is, evolutionary materialistic scientism under-writes the key radically secularist humanism, cultural marxism and the like that are so much a part of the picture, where from Plato in The Laws Bk X 2350+ years ago, it was known that such is inherently radically relativistic and amoral, thus utterly undermines objectivity of moral government and therefore opens the door to might and manipulation make right nihilism. Yes, 2350+ years ago, we have no excuse of ignorance. Scientism, by in effect trying to undermine bases for knowledge other than big-S Science, manages to put up an epistemological — thus philosophical — claim that refutes itself.

In addition, evo mat radically undermines the coherent, responsibly and rationally free self, ending in self falsification by incoherence. This of course fatally corrodes responsible, reasonable discussion — a phenomenon readily seen from ever so much Darwinist trollery all across the Internet.

We need to get back to basics and realise that we must be responsibly, rationally free or discussion is futile.

{I add, courtesy a wonderful summary by Harry:}

>>Folks, there is no empirical evidence that intelligence exists. Evidence is defined as the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. It shouldn’t surprise us then that since recognizing that which facts or information indicates would require intelligence, and it doesn’t exist, there can be no such empirical evidence for intelligence. Nor can there be, for that matter, any such things as facts, information, indications or evidence. So it is even worse than we thought. There is no empirical evidence for anything. There is no basis for knowledge whatsoever. I am now certain of that. Well, the electrochemical activity of my physical brain is producing the experience of certainty, anyway. Thanks for letting the electrochemical activity of your brain experience this expression of the electrochemical activity of mine. Don’t worry. It doesn’t mean anything.>>

Yes, that puts on the table the issue, what sort of world-root grounds the existence of beings like we must be, just to account for the massive fact of responsible, rational discussion and freedom, on pain of self-referential absurdity.

After Hume’s guillotine argument, that requires a world in which IS and OUGHT are inextricably fused in the root, bridging the notorious gap. Where also, non-being has no causal powers so if once there were utterly nothing, such would forever obtain. We need necessary being root, and one simultaneously capable of grounding ought.

There is but one viable, serious candidate (after centuries of debates): the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature.

If you doubt, simply put up an alternative and engage comparative difficulties: ____________________ . (Of course, to do so, you imply responsible, rational freedom, and any scheme of thought not consistent with such cannot meet the coherence and factual adequacy tests so dies not even reach the stage of being tested for balanced elegant explanatory power. This sweeps away entire categories of views fashionable over the past 150 years.)

So, it is high time to re-think, undergo metanoia and set out to reform our civilisation from its deeply suicidal blood guilt, be-numbing of conscience, en-darkenment of mind, and ongoing march of folly.>>

Where of course, Plato long ago warned our civilisation:

>>Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ –> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . .

[Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ –> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by “winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . ” cf a video on Plato’s parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ –> Evolutionary materialism — having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT — leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for “OUGHT” is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in “spin”) . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ –> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ –> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush — as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [–> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].>>

Of course, evolutionary materialistic scientism is not openly and blatantly nihilistic — that would so openly discredit it that it would long since have been a dead letter. Instead, as Plato spotted, it undermines the objective foundation of moral governance by pushing an inherently amoral foundation for the world. This leads to radical relativisation of morality and opens the door to those who imply (or sometimes explicitly teach) that might and/or manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘law,’ ‘justice,’ ‘rights,’ etc. That, is then how nihilism sneaks in by the back door.

A further prediction, objectors will very likely refuse to address the self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism, and ditto for its inherent amorality. Likewise, they will refuse to seriously take up the worldviews foundations challenge.

Not hard to make, that is a years-long consistent pattern.

(The difference is, I am no longer pretty much a lone voice in these parts, on this point. So, the objection is now how dare you suggest we are nihilists! Nope, just that evo mat advocates and fellow travellers have no adequate worldviews foundations for our world of being necessarily responsible, rationally free beings, just to be able to have a facts-/ evidence- based logical discussion.)

Let’s see if at last we can have the real discussion. END

PS, I also saw how I have “meandered into sustainability.” Of course, this too is a manifestation of the rhetoric of contemptuous dismissal by one-liner. I responded:

>>As for meandered into sustainability, in your patent contempt you did not even pause to do the homework that would easily show that I have long been a practising professional under that theme (with a focus on capacity development — cf here for a recent remark:http://kairosfocus.blogspot.co…..-gvcs.html ), seeing the principle as an application of Kant’s Categorical Imperative (and the classical Golden Rule), though I am leery of some of the more junk science and bad economics claims that are too often advanced under that rubric. Energy and industrial civilisation transformation are tied to that. If we can get something like polywell fusion to work, and the Bussard drive, that puts greening across the globe within reach in this century and onward solar system colonialisation. Molten salt and pebble bed reactors are despatchable, allowing us to get out of many of the intermittency problems that plague ever so many renewable techs. I have hope that algae oil may come through, and have not given up hopes for fuel cells. And yes, energy is the pivot. Though good governance transformation is not far behind . . . a current major focus. The distortions of law, government, media, education, family and more driven by abortion are a major manifestation of the progressive disintegration of governance leading to crises that will invite that notorious “solution” the follow me blindly, manipulative political messiah.>>

(Of course, in too many hands, “sustainability” has been turned into a handy slogan for promoting just such agendas. Instead, I think an adaptation of Bruntland’s famously circular definition of 1987, will help: SD better and more equitably meets our needs today and tomorrow, requiring that we better understand and husband our bio-physical/ natural, socio-cultural and economic contexts. Better and more fairly meeting needs points to soundly founded development strategies and inclusive economic growth, responsive to sound insights on the three domains of our environment and prudent policy and implementation measures that credibly will be robust on a multi-generational scale. Which is the context in which I mentioned earth transformation across this century, solar system colonisation beyond and if the physics gives us ways and means, galactic colonisation further beyond.)

42 Replies to “Where do you get the notion there likely have been 800+ million abortions in 40 years from?

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    Where does that 800+ million abortions figure come from?

    (And, Harry, here’s the first use of your clip.)

  2. 2
    redwave says:

    “12 May 2016 — New estimates, published today in the Lancet, indicate that the induced abortion rate has declined significantly in more developed countries between 1990 and 2014, but not in developing countries. A new study, undertaken by the Guttmacher Institute and WHO, has estimated that, worldwide, during the period 2010-2014, there were 35 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44. This translates to over 56 million abortions per year.”

    http://www.who.int/reproductiv.....ortion/en/

  3. 3
    Florabama says:

    kairosfocus, I love reading your posts, but this was a pièce de résistance (a little French lingo for the Enlightenment loving RVB8). K, I trust you are imparting your knowledge in classrooms beyond Uncommon Descent. If not, you really should. It is a gift. Excellent job! (my suck up for the day).

    I am always struck by the oblivious nature of materialists’ understanding of the genocidal history of their beloved “enlightenment” thinking and their ability to compartmentalize and ignore that B follows A. They say “enlightened,” with such ease and without a shred of indication that they are aware of the number of detached heads in baskets at the bottom of the guillotines, or the Darwinism in action called Nazism, or those stalwarts of progressive, enlightened, atheistic values, Stalin and Mao whose purges created conservatively 100,000,000 corpses, or Pol Pot or Kim Young whichever, or Castro’s island prison or Margaret Sanger’s enlightened view that Black people were “weeds” that needed “eliminating” (her words) from society and so was born (ironic that word) that great enlightened organization that makes a great profit from dissecting little babies without anesthesia as they silently scream in agony (blame the accountants — the bottom line, you see) and then callously sells their body parts to the highest bidder. “I have $100 for a fresh, baby brain carefully removed without damage. Who’ll give me $200?” Yes, those enlightened values! We could add eugenics, forced sterilizations and the destruction of the Black family through welfare dependency to all these other children of the Enlightenment mentioned above. But if my experience with “enlightened,” progressive, atheistic, Neo-Darwinists, holds true, RVB8 will disclaim any connection to the actual fruits of his worldview. B does not follow A, you see. Those were just progressives that got it wrong, you see, never mind that every time you scratch a progressive, they bleed totalitarianism. Dawkins wants to take children from their “creationist” parents, Al Gore and Bill Nye want to prosecute Global Warming dissenters, and the Darwinists have made a cottage industry out of ruining careers and silencing debate. The capacity for cluelessness with those who call themselves enlightened, should be studied as it might actually reflect evidence for extraterrestrial life commensurate with an alien invasion of Earth — Invasion of the Body Snatchers — comes to mind.

  4. 4
    Eugen says:

    What a morbid and macabre civilization we are…. 🙁 How did it come to this?

    “Please don’t kill the child. I want the child. Please give me the child. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted, and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child, and be loved by the child. From our children’s home in Calcutta alone, we have saved over 3,000 children from abortions. These children have brought such love and joy to their adopting parents, and have grown up so full of love and joy!”
    –Mother Teresa

  5. 5
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: The Hipocratic Oath:

    I swear by Apollo The Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the Gods and Goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

    To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the physician’s oath, but to nobody else.

    I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

    Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

    Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I transgress it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.

    If we will not heed the Christians, then let us at least heed the pagans.

    KF

  6. 6

    Another excellent post. Thank you.

  7. 7
    harry says:

    KF,

    For, the abortion holocaust is perhaps the central sign of what has been happening with our time, and it is directly connected to the implications of evolutionary materialistic scientism, radically secularist humanism and fellow travellers

    Yes. And thank you, KF, for once again calling our attention to the greatest holocaust of innocent human life in the history of the world.

    The so called Enlightenment, in so far as it was militantly atheistic, has plunged the world into an intellectual dark ages, which, considering that its author and maintainer is the father of lies and a murderer from the start, unsurprisingly has been homicidal to innocent humanity made in the image of God and is based upon endless lies.

    I am afraid that it is the disunity of Christians that is primarily responsible for enabling the contemporary holocaust and for its continuation. While an end to our doctrinal differences is not in sight, there is nothing prohibiting us from recognizing the Spirit of Christ in each other. There is no excuse for our failing to do that, which is the beginning of the answer to the fervent prayer of Christ:

    And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, are in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    — John 17:20-21

    This unity among Christians based on our mutual acknowledgment of the Spirit of Christ in each other is possible. I discovered the strength and beauty of it in the practice of civil disobedience on the part of Christians of all denominations as they blocked the entrances of child-killing “clinics” in Wichita, Kansas. They were doing this by the thousands back in the summer of 1991. As massive as those protests were, it looks like much larger protests will be required — and much more unity among Christians.

    The ending of the dismemberment of the babies and the ending of the dismemberment of the Body of Christ on Earth will take place at the same time. Our disunity allows the present holocaust. Our unity — our acknowledging the Spirit of Christ in each other — will end it.

  8. 8
    Pindi says:

    Eugen, have you read much about Mother Theresa? You would not want to leave a child in her hands. She knowingly withheld medicine from sick people who could have been treated. Believing it was somehow better to let them die.

  9. 9
    kairosfocus says:

    Pindi, substantiate please. Without playing tangent games or out of context games. KF

    PS: Given your known track record of advocacy, it would help to explain your basis for binding moral judgements.

  10. 10
    Pindi says:

    my main source is Christopher Hitchen’s book. But there are many reports/essays, eg

    http://www.independent.co.uk/v.....21363.html

    (sorry, I don’t know how to post links)

    Edit, actually I see that I do..

  11. 11
    rvb8 says:

    I never disagreed with the figure Kairos, and I apologise for missing your earlier summations. It’s merely that I concentrate on what can be done for those already here, than on concerning myself with things beyond my control. 800,000,000 I can do nothing about compared with the billions here, I can at least weigh in for; there’s no contest over which of these groups concerns me more. What bothers me is your almost complete lack of concern as to the future of this, largely unwanted humanity; your answer please.
    You could say that abortion today is within our control to minimise, but the example of Ireland suggests this would move this problem back to the streets, or for the more well off, trips to more enlightened countries next door.
    Yes! I use the word enlightened deliberately, as the examples of countries which have BA’s ideal already in place, ‘that abortion is murder'(as if that is actually what you believe), are countries I, and I hope you find repulsive.
    The thread was on exo-planets and I’m annoyed with myself for having been dragged into yet another pointless, and inconclusive, discussion which will not change the law of the land, or, thankfully, the majority of right thinking people.
    Abortion should be the last straw, agreed, but it should be easily accessable and safe, and in most civilised nations it is.
    Pindi is right about Mother Theresa, she saw the suffering of those she housed as remaniscent of Christ’s agonies, and therefore not to be interfered with, a thoroughly Medieval view.
    You asked for citation? Try google and your click finger, the referances are many.

  12. 12
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8, if we stand silent in the face of holocaust, we are — in the words of the White Rose martyrs — guilty, guilty, guilty. These things thrive on shadows and silence so the first thing is to expose them. That is the lesson of Wilberforce. If it takes up to 50 years for the patiently pointed out truth to prevail, as it did then, so be it. The patient, peaceful witness of truth is the first step to reform. On much history, I have no confidence whatsoever in radical revolutionaries. KF

  13. 13
    kairosfocus says:

    Pindi

    did you really read what you linked?

    I find there a revealing assertion that is utterly discrediting given the ongoing holocaust of 800+ millions:

    MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.

    This highlighted claim is frankly a lie.

    Poverty in fact is reduced by development transformation, which starts with sound public health [sanitation, immunisation, vector control etc] and education of all, tied to empowerment of entrepreneurship.

    When families understand that half of their children will not die by 5 – 7 years due to poor public health practices, there is a characteristic, well-known demographic transformation. First, there is a lag, with a boom caused by falling infant mortality. Then, there is a falling of birth rates. (Currently, across our civilisation, too often well below replacement levels.)

    Yes, we may disagree with Mother Teresa over Catholic teaching on contraception. Though, I have concerns that some methods are de facto early abortions, via IUD and certain ways the pill may work, preventing implantation rather than blocking ovulation.

    I think she showed confusions over poverty (and seemed to have aversion to hospitals to the point of attempted flight from one when she herself took ill), but there is a point in it. Too often wealth and ease lead straight to arrogance, willful rejection of evident truth that does not fit the agenda of greed and ungodliness. This is why for example the Gospels warn so stringently against the way riches can help ruin one’s soul. A message our civilisation failed to heed well enough in recent decades as it has turned material blessings into an occasion of stumbling. In which context BTW, the NT counsel is that the well off learn the art of giving and service as an antidote to the taint of arrogance and pride.

    There is so much manipulation that one hardly knows whom to trust.

    And again, I note how you seem to be riding piggyback on the fact of moral government even while your evident worldview cannot properly found it or even the responsible rationally free individuality you have to implicitly build on, just to argue.

    These point to serious worldview level problems.

    KF

    PS: some balancing words: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ind.....image.html (And, we must not lose sight of the primary focus of this thread — which is instantly a test. Holocaust involving perversion of state, law, medical and legal professions and systems as well as the media stares us in the face. What is our response, and what does that imply about the state of our souls?)

  14. 14
    Dionisio says:

    KF,

    Thank you for this sobering article and for continuously reminding about the serious issues that should concern all.

  15. 15
    Dionisio says:

    KF,
    Off topic:
    I’ve heard about a recent earthquake in NZ.
    I think one of your interlocutors is from that country?
    In any case, let’s pray for the people there.
    Don’t know why the Aussies call them Kiwis?
    I know a young couple who went there for their honeymoon. They told me NZ is a beautiful country.

  16. 16
    Dionisio says:

    KF,
    Off topic:
    FYI – one of your interlocutors didn’t answer the questions posted @1949-1953 in the thread pointed to by this link:
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-616309

  17. 17
    kairosfocus says:

    D, Have not been monitoring, but checked, looks like “just” a shake-up with damage, though Mag 7.1 is no joke: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new.....d=11702954 . . . epicentre was off the coast, no tsunami either. NZ is by reputation quite beautiful. The Kiwi is a bird. KF

  18. 18
    vjtorley says:

    Pindi,

    The charges you mention against Mother Teresa have been answered here. I once believed them myself, but I think the evidence presented in the article shows them to be slanderous:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2013/04/mother-teresa-and-her-critics

  19. 19
    kairosfocus says:

    VJT, good to see you and thanks for a helpful link. KF

    PS: I am praying, esp after from 4 to effective 0.

  20. 20
    Pindi says:

    Thanks VJT, will take a look

  21. 21
    Pindi says:

    Dionisio, you have a curious way of communicating. Yes, I am from NZ. Yes, there was a big earthquake here. We have a lot of them. No damage this time. I guess God was just teasing us this time.

  22. 22
    rvb8 says:

    Thank you Dionisio!
    Yes, I am indeed from New Zealand, and we have frequent earthquakes, much like Japan, and for the same reason.
    This one was 7.1, off the east coast of the North Island, and no one died; in about 3000m of ocean, and about 30km off the coast. It disrupted train services in Auckland 400km away, and was substantial.
    The main cause for celebration (apart from zero death) was that the seismological monitoring centre for tsuenamis, worked perfectly.
    Thank you again Dionisio, I’m not sure prayer would be helpful, but your compassion is most welcome, very thoughtful.
    Rob.

  23. 23
    rvb8 says:

    Oh dear!
    Now Pindi and I will be conflated; No! We are not the same person!
    But we do come from a country with an inordinate number of atheists; perhaps it’s all the earthquakes.
    I believe also, that we have the second highest rate of teen abortions in the world, behind the USA of course.
    You may not believe it, but I am deeply ashamed of this claim to failure.

  24. 24
    Eugen says:

    Too many atheist Kiwis? Of course, you have been upside down for too long, that’s not healthy 🙂

  25. 25
    Pindi says:

    Kia ora rvb8!

  26. 26
    rvb8 says:

    Eugen; Heh:)
    Pindi: Kia ora koe.
    I wonder how many posters here could say, ‘be well/healthy’, in Hawain, or any Native American tongue, or would care? Or, to use the US vernacular, ‘give a rat’s ass’?
    Being hung up about 800 million, cerainly does distract from problems at hand.

  27. 27
    Dionisio says:

    Pindi,

    I didn’t know you were from NZ too. I thought of rvb8 when I read the news about the earthquake, but wasn’t 100% sure he was from NZ.
    My wife and I have NZ in the list of places we would like to visit, specially after a young couple we know came back from their honeymoon there and told us about it.
    I have friends in Sydney and Brisbane, hence we might visit them and NZ on the same trip.
    Maybe then I’ll meet you and rvb8!
    BTW, what’s curious about my way of communicating? 🙂

  28. 28
    Dionisio says:

    rvb8

    I thought I had read about you being from NZ but wasn’t completely sure about it.
    Regarding atheism, I was a ‘convinced’ atheist myself.
    Been there, done that, bought the shirt, wore the shirt. 🙂

  29. 29
    rvb8 says:

    Well Dionisio, we are ideologically opposed. I grew up Christian (staunch Catholic, then Assembly Of God), and lost it slowly.
    I honestly don’t mean to be offensive, but strident and righteous indignation leaves me suspicious as to the moral superiority of my interlocuters.(The main reason I evolved into atheism; healthy doubt).
    I don’t believe anyone here has morality superior to mine, and I wish mine were better. Their rock solid assurity, weighs against my own absolute uncertainty.
    Nice chatting with you. If I am in NZ (not at the mo), when you arrive I hope to share a beer.

  30. 30
    Dionisio says:

    rvb8
    Thank you for your comment @29.

    As you wrote, our storylines are very different.

    I got my ‘high education’ in Moscow, when it was the capital of the Soviet Union. Perhaps you’re too young to know that name, but can look for it online.
    Before I could get my engineering degree, I had to pass a rigorous exam on materialist philosophy and related subjects. After graduating I could literally teach atheism to many self-proclaimed atheists and in some ways I did. 🙂

    These days I’m not too attracted to philosophical discussions. Perhaps because had too much of it in my younger years? However, sometimes I may write sporadic comments within philosophical topics.

    Can you point to an example where I sounded morally superior to anyone here? I would like to correct it.
    Please, simply quote what I wrote and provide a link to it.
    I will highly appreciate it.

    Paul the apostle, who is associated with a significant part of the text compiled within the New Testament of the Christian Bible, claimed to be the chief of sinners. However, I strongly believe that such title belongs to me first.

    Jesus Christ, during His short ministry on Earth, was a friend of sinners, very compassionate to many, but referred to the self-righteous in very harsh terms.

    He also warned that many self-proclaimed Christians aren’t really so. The path to righteousness is very narrow, while the road to eternal separation from our Creator is very wide.

    Jesus said we should love God with all our strength and mind, and love our neighbors as ourselves. Those are the main commandments. When someone asked Him about the term ‘neighbor’ He responded with the ‘good Samaritan’ story, where two persons from different social/ethnic groups people who despised each other were at the center of that story.

    In the 1930s there was a substantial number of people in Germany who allegedly claimed to be Christians, but supported the Nazi regime, which was openly evil, specially since the so called ‘Krystal Nacht’, which was a radical rejection of the main commandments mentioned above.

    There were few examples of German Christians who correctly saw Christ above all, and peacefully rejected the evil philosophy of the Nazi regime. Some of them, as the example of the brave University of Munich student Sophie Scholl, paid the highest price for opposing the majority.

    I should try to avoid judging the message by the messengers.

    The postman leaving the letters in my mailbox might behave in a despicable manner, but that won’t keep me from opening and reading the letters, though I may have to throw some of the envelopes away.

    Have a good weekend.

  31. 31
    Pindi says:

    Haere mai Dionisio I am sure you and your wife would love it out here. Most people do who visit.

    Not so curious now I know you were talking about rvb8 not me. But just thought it was a bit eliptical asking kf about it rather than asking the person direct who you thought was from nz.

  32. 32
    rvb8 says:

    Sorry Dionisio,
    prosylitizing is not something I think is harmless, and your life story, though important (to you and yours), is of little importance to me and mine.
    Be happy,
    Rob.

  33. 33
    anthropic says:

    rvb8 32 “Sorry Dionisio, prosylitizing (sic) is not something I think is harmless”

    So why are you doing it for materialism? Or is it just harmful when done by those who disagree with you?

  34. 34
    rvb8 says:

    Sorry for the spelling, I am a very lazy speller.
    Proselytizing has been a hall mark of relgion, especially Islam and Christianity for a long time. During this long period it was often with torture and death, ably aided by the Church that this proselytizing 🙂 took place.
    I just thought that the ‘outing’ of so many atheists worldwide is a wonderful rebuttal to this pernicious history; I, and many others are trying to level the playing field, as it were. But, to be fair we (the atheists) have a hell (Heh!) of along way to go before we can say, ‘all’s even now’.

  35. 35
    kairosfocus says:

    RVB8,

    I find it sadly illuminating that your instant appeal is to the attempted spreading of belief by force, when in fact such is an obvious anomaly.

    Here is Paul on the subject of worldviews conflict and the “weapons of our warfare”:

    2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ . . .

    Clearly, the issue is peaceful addressing of foundational issues of the thought-world, rather than imposition by force.

    In the central teaching on Christian ethics, by the founder of the Christian faith, we find:

    Matt 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God . . . . 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire . . . .

    7:12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

    13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few . . . .

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    In short, where some who have acted under the colours of Christ have violated the core ethics of the gospel, they thereby show themselves to have failed the test of conformity with Christ. And this is not a no true Scotsman fallacy, penitence, conversion and utter transformation of life are at the core of Discipleship. So, those who have violated discipleship while flying the flag of Christ were and are in profound error, indeed iniquity. It is a sad fact of history that this has happened too often, though once is too often.

    Notwithstanding, a reasonable response will distinguish the anomaly from the sound.

    And, back on focal topic, it is clear that we live in an en-darkened, conscience benumbed age. With the mounting blood guilt due to participating in or enabling the ongoing worst holocaust in history as a chief contributor to the benumbing and en-darkening that is literally leading to a war of mass slaughter on our own posterity. Civilisational suicide, where already many major nations have passed a demographic tipping point that points to population collapse.

    It is entirely in order to point this out and to ask pointed questions as to what enables such a march of suicidal folly.

    Where also, this is the keystone evil of our day, the central fortress from which law, government, academia, media, schooling and general culture have been warped, en-darkened and rendered insensitive to horrors, evils, perversions of all kinds and folly.

    So, as Wilberforce and others focussed attention on the slave trade, we must focus on the abortion holocaust and draw out what is shrouded in studied silence: the slaughter of 800+ million unborn children in 40-odd years under false colours of law, rights, choice and more.

    Guilty, guilty, guilty we are.

    We must now turn to recognition of that guilt, repentance, renewal of sound thought and reformation. Before the corruption of law and government reach the point where peaceful protest, remonstrance, petition and movements of reform are rendered impossible.

    And this will require a renewal of conscience, of moral government, of recognition of the only sound source of such government. For, only at world-root level can IS be soundly unified with OUGHT, through being inextricably fused in the root of being.

    For that, after centuries of debates, there is just one serious candidate who passes the comparative difficulties tests: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the manifestly good in accord with our evident nature.

    If you doubt such, simply propose an alternative: _____ and proceed to deal with factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. Instantly, radical relativism, subjectivism and schemes of thought that cannot pass the test of self referential coherence, are swept away en bloc.

    The ghosts of 800+ million unborn children cry out to us, calling us to turn from the worst holocaust in history and onwards to renewal of our civilisation.

    But, are we listening?

    And, those who would stigmatise reasoned peaceful persuasion and correction of evils by sober counter argument with “proselytising” — notice, a word that is essentially only used to taint — and attempts to define the whole by the anomalous and patently unjustified extremes, are not friends of reform and saving our civilisation from a march of folly to ruin.

    No, I have not forgotten the snide suggestion that if one really cared about mass abortion he would turn terrorist.

    That was corrected, and was followed by studious silence. Then now we see the same weed cropping up again in the subtler form of conflating reasoned peaceful persuasion with violence and imposition.

    I think, sir, this reveals an inner hostility on your part that must be addressed. Indeed, as rage is a blinding emotion, it points to issues that rage may be closing your mind to the force of what you have so consistently stigmatised in attempts to reject and dismissed for weeks now.

    I suggest, it is time for you to re-think.

    KF

  36. 36
    Dionisio says:

    anthropic @33

    Regarding your excellent questions to rvb8:

    So why are you doing it for materialism? Or is it just harmful when done by those who disagree with you?

    Apparently rvb8 responded your questions @34:

    I, and many others are trying to level the playing field […]

    However, I think that rvb8 and his comrade Pindi, as well as their fellow travelers who comment in this blog, have clearly shown their real motives before:
    Note that they are very selective when answering questions. They ignore some simple questions. That’s a possible sign of having dubious motives.
    Anyone who is genuinely searching for true knowledge reacts to questions very different than Pindi and their party comrades. The latter seem to have an agenda and try hard to stick to it.
    Interestingly, by doing so they may reveal their lack of solid arguments for serious discussions.
    Perhaps some anonymous onlookers/lurkers visiting this blog can read the discussion threads and draw their own conclusions.
    Usually I try to stay away from having much interaction with people who don’t like to have serious discussions, but sometimes they address me in their comments. That was the case here in this very thread, where I wrote to KF but then rvb8 and Pindi reacted addressing me directly in some of their following comments.
    For example, Pindi suddenly popped up in the thread ‘Mystery at the heart of life” just to ask me a strange question that apparently had nothing to do with the discussed topics. But usually in those cases when I request additional clarification to their questions, they run away.
    At least Professor L.M. of the U. Of T. in Canada said that I don’t ask honest questions. Denyse O’Leary later said that in Canadian English that meant that he would lose the discussion with me, hence better quit before the embarrassment got bigger, specially after I revealed my low IQ and poor education level compared to theirs.
    C’est la vie mon ami.
    Perhaps that’s one reason why the abovementioned thread -full of references to interesting biology research papers- is so rarely visited by the politely-dissenting folks?

    They seem to prefer the vague philosophy discussions. 🙂

  37. 37
    Dionisio says:

    KF @35

    Good point. Thank you.

  38. 38
    anthropic says:

    KF and Dionisio, well said.

    Modern folk laugh at idol worship, which is odd considering that they practice child sacrifice for similar reasons. Promises of personal peace and affluence are just as tempting today as they were thousands of years ago.

  39. 39
    Dionisio says:

    Pindi @31

    FYI – some people in this blog may pay careful attention to the contextual meaning of words. You may want to keep that in mind next time you write a comment here.

    Your comment @31 seems to contain a superficial and therefore misleading reference to my comment @15.

    Note that @15 I made a serious request for ‘prayers’ hence the message could not be addressed directly to people like rvb8 who apparently dislike or misunderstand that terminology. You may ask your fellow Kiwi rvb8 in te reo M?ori to confirm if that’s the case, 🙂

    BTW, can you explain why you paid attention to the comment @15 but ignored the one @16 which was related to you?

    Just curious.

  40. 40
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: I again highlight the pivotal, strategic centrality and watershed nature of this issue. Our civilisation is currently involved in mass blood-guilt, a holocaust of our innocent posterity in the womb, at the rate of 50+ millions per year, credibly amounting to 800+ millions in 40-odd years. To enable such slaughter under false colours of law, medicine, science, law-making, the courts, media, philosophy, academia, education, politics, state policies and more have been systematically distorted and undermined, in gross and continuing violation of duties of care to truth, right, neighbour, innocent life, honour and more. Guilty, guilty, guilty are we — directly implicated or behaving as enablers or as too often silent in the face of great and ever mounting evil. Stained with the guilt of innocent blood. More than due for a walk of shame, frog-marched through our many abortion mills, with grisly reminders of what we have enabled on prominent display — which, let us not forget now includes convincing evidence of the de facto sale of remains, however disguised and covered up. This is an age of en-darkened minds and benumbed consciences, a dark and bloody age proudly proclaiming its enlightenment and wisdom even as it insistently continues in a march of willfully blind ruinous folly. A glance at the thread above will be utterly, tellingly revealing. We need, instead, to pray for the gift of moral and intellectual sensitivity restored enough that we can actually feel our sinful, suicidally ruinous folly and repent, building up a critical mass for reformation from this great wickedness and the many other evils that have come in its train. Before it becomes fatally too late. In that context I again put on the table the microcosm of democratic community life and decision-making afforded by the real-world case study found in Acts 27. KF

  41. 41
    kairosfocus says:

    PS: Notice, how this pivotal issue is not in our headlines or the current US election cycle. And yet, it is truly pivotal, a driving force behind much else that has gone ever so wrong. That lack of focus on what is the central evil of our time — the worst holocaust in history — is itself a sign of the heart of what has been going wrong with our civilisation.

  42. 42
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS: The question on the table for this thread is, is the cricket (or, tree-frogs . . . that’s what I am actually hearing) chirping that of well, we have to ponder a sobering issue, or is it the silence of evasion. On either case, it is obvious that the worst ever — and in progress as we speak [1 mn per WEEK!] — holocaust in history is necessarily the central evil of our utterly en-darkened and be-numbed age. Guilty, guilty, guilty are we, starting with the Guttmacher Institute and WHO who so coldly delivered a calculation as though it were of no sobering, central import. And, the media houses that obviously refused to draw out its implications come next in line. After that, the movers, shakers, decision makers and influencers of our civilisation. Then we come, as the enablers. Our shame speaks for itself. Let me quote Sedgh et al in The Lancet, in May this year:

    http://www.thelancet.com/journ.....4/abstract

    Findings

    We estimated that 35 abortions (90% uncertainty interval [UI] 33 to 44) occurred annually per 1000 women aged 15–44 years worldwide in 2010–14, which was 5 points less than 40 (39–48) in 1990–94 (90% UI for decline ?11 to 0). Because of population growth, the annual number of abortions worldwide increased by 5·9 million (90% UI ?1·3 to 15·4), from 50·4 million in 1990–94 (48·6 to 59·9) to 56·3 million (52·4 to 70·0) in 2010–14. In the developed world, the abortion rate declined 19 points (?26 to ?14), from 46 (41 to 59) to 27 (24 to 37). In the developing world, we found a non-significant 2 point decline (90% UI ?9 to 4) in the rate from 39 (37 to 47) to 37 (34 to 46). Some 25% (90% UI 23 to 29) of pregnancies ended in abortion in 2010–14. Globally, 73% (90% UI 59 to 82) of abortions were obtained by married women in 2010–14 compared with 27% (18 to 41) obtained by unmarried women. We did not observe an association between the abortion rates for 2010–14 and the grounds under which abortion is legally allowed.

    WHO, HT RW in 2 above:

    http://www.who.int/reproductiv.....-rates/en/

    12 May 2016 — New estimates, published today in the Lancet, indicate that the induced abortion rate has declined significantly in more developed countries between 1990 and 2014, but not in developing countries.

    A new study, undertaken by the Guttmacher Institute and WHO, has estimated that, worldwide, during the period 2010-2014, there were 35 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44. This translates to over 56 million abortions per year [–> A BBC report a few months back suggested a decline from 56 to 52 IIRC] . . .

    In the end, we cannot duck this issue of a war on our posterity.

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