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Atheism and the Evolution Requirement

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One of the major difficulties I have as someone with one foot planted in the theistic evolution camp is discussing the general concept of evolution or Darwinism.

A large part of the problem is with the simple definition of the words – where one person takes Darwinism to mean “a process totally unguided and unforeseen by God in anyway”, another means “a process of variation and selection, where both variation and selected may be or (with some TEs) in fact were ultimately or proximately guided and foreseen by God”, still another means “a process of variation and selection, where the ultimate causes of variation and selection are not considered because that’s outside of science” to otherwise, etc. Navigating this is a headache, and one that constantly reappears.

But another conceptual problem is this: The claim that atheism and evolution are utterly intertwined. Now, this comes in a few forms. Sometimes the claim is that if evolution is true – let’s say, if it’s true that the first man had biological precursors – then theism must be false. More popular is the claim that theism and evolution can both be true, but theism can also withstand the falsity of evolution. Atheism, on the other hand, has a dire link to evolution: If atheism is true, then evolution must be true.

This latter view seems popular, both in and out of the ID tent. And it’s a view I deeply disagree with. My reasons follow below the cut.

Before I start in on this, I want to stress that there’s a related, more obvious claim that I’m not denying: That evolution, particularly Darwinism, is used to support atheism, and used to attack certain particular religious claims (that humanity and all life was created fully formed is the obvious example.) Likewise, I’m not denying that atheists make appeals to evolution to support their atheism, or that some would even agree that if atheism is true then evolution must be true. I think they’re as wrong as the theists who make this claim.

What I deny is this: That the assumed truth of atheism makes evolution logically necessary. All you need is a single example of a logically possible world where both atheism is true and evolution is false, and the logical necessity disappears. Here’s a sample of some possibilities.

* Humanity and all living things have been reproducing, producing only like kinds, unto eternity.
* The existence of at least humanity and possibly all other life is simply a brute fact: At some point in the finite or infinite past, humanity and/or life showed up without cause or explanation. They just are.
* Humanity and/or other life popped into existence in a Boltzmann Brain style scenario – one day they just appeared, sans precursors, by utter fortuity.
* Humanity and/or other life was directly caused to exist by a combination of laws and states-of-affairs that are/were themselves brute and inexplicable, yet which for no reason made the sudden appearance of these organisms inevitable.

This list could be expanded in numerous ways: Make the laws of nature subject to inexplicable change if you want. Increase the length of the brute fact chain. Fill the natural world with suspiciously convenient, detailed, life- or human-spawning processes that create directly rather than rely on selection and variation. All this and more are logically compatible with the truth of atheism. And it only takes one compatibility to show that no, evolution and atheism aren’t quite linked that way.

Now, as I said previously, this doesn’t mean that atheists don’t regularly present evolution as some kind of testament to the truth of atheism – but that’s deeply problematic. First, insofar as it relies on the claim that evolution must be true on atheism, it’s open to the same counter-examples I just provided. Second, I’d argue that the rhetorical strengths atheists are often granted by evolution typically derive most of their strength from their opposition to very narrow, particular religious claims – if a theist adheres to an account of origins such that organisms were made whole and without precursors, then an evolutionary account of such organisms is a challenge. But if a theist believes that God could have or did use evolutionary processes in creation, the bulk of the force of the evolutionary argument – in and of itself – dissipates. Insofar as this is true, evolution doesn’t function as an evidence for atheism as much as evidence against some particular claim of one religious view – but theism itself, and religion broadly, does not require the falsity of evolution anyway.

But one problem I have with this misunderstanding is this: It gives credit where credit simply isn’t due.

Comments
Charles, Sincerely, your definition of theism being any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods, makes them the same thing. That is the problem with tautologies. That's not how I defined theism - in fact, I specifically said that theism was not itself entwined with 'religion': Theism itself is not a religion per se – it’s a belief in God or gods. You’ve already given a few theistic religions (Buddhism is a trickier case), but any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: I’m talking about theism, you want to talk about specific religions. The two are not the same thing. Sincerely, your definition of theism being any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods, makes them the same thing. That is the problem with tautologies. I didn't understand the substance of your claims. Nor more, no less. I'm willing to be confused. It's ok that you never intended to delve into the points on which I am confused, but your reaction to being pressed I find surprising. Especially in light of my erroneously presuming I understood what you meant by "theistic evolution" and upon your correction I was unedified by how broadly you applied the term in the context of your concluding claim that "theism itself, and religion broadly, does not require the falsity of evolution anyway". It seemed minimally a conflation of first principles. Your mistating my arguments/questions didn't clarify any and so I pressed on. I apologize for having asked and even pressed unduly. It won't happen again.Charles
May 25, 2011
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uoflcard, I agree with you, although it is my opinion that most atheists, if convinced that life as we know it on this Earth could not have evolved in the few billion years it’s been here, would either undergo a dramatic transformation in their worldview or would have to resort to fantastical natural creation tales to preserve their atheism. Sure, but what I've outlined are "fantastical natural creation tales" anyway. And I'd agree that if evolution were proven false to someone who believed it, that would result in a dramatic change of their worldview. But I think that's a distinct question from atheism itself. Evolution is not completely necessitated by atheism, but atheism sure doesn’t make a lot of sense without it. I'd argue that atheism doesn't make a lot of sense with it - see again the issues with brute facts or the inexplicable, or on the lack of a need for anything to 'make sense' given atheism. Now, I would not doubt that modern atheism has a lot of emotional and political investment in evolution - I granted that right in the OP. But I also think that's an artifact of time and place, rather than a necessary requirement of atheism. Think of it this way. Prior to the Big Bang, you probably could have told me that atheism was fundamentally committed to a past-eternal universe - that atheism would make no sense, be highly untenable, if it were believed that the universe had a temporal beginning. Well, now that view is popular and - lo and behold - atheists have acclimated. Likewise, when Crick was convinced that an Origin of Life on earth was just not likely, he didn't consider theism for a moment - he dove for directed panspermia. Atheism is flexible. More generally, though, atheism DOES necessitate a non-ID explanation of all information in all of the universe/multiverse. Life is too complex to be explained by the probabiblistic resources of this planet/unvierse? If atheism is to remain a viable worldview, it must then resort to even greater probabilistic resources to explain our current exception…like 10^500 universes or infinite/eternal universes. Or they can discount talk of probabilities altogether - brute facts, the inexplicable, etc. Again, things many atheists are entirely comfortable with doing even now, in different areas. I want to stress: I do not deny that the collapse of evolution as a tenable view would have quite an effect on many atheists in a personal sense. But I think that has far less to do with atheism itself, and more to do with one of a multitude of logically possible atheist creation stories. Really, even logically possible may be restricting it too much - I've bumped into atheists denying that the universe has to be logical, or that we should presume it to be so.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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Charles, You haven’t proven it, no, rather you have presumed it as your starting definition. Why is this controversial to you? You seem to be upset because my views on the compatibility of theism with evolution is a broad compatibility. But I'm admitting that at the outset. I think your sights are poorly fixed here. You declined to specify what the claims are, so you are in no position to accuse me of not understanding your intent (I did ask, you declined) or to presume “religions that accept (macro)evolution” until you demonstrate which religions so accept. No, not really. I understand you really, really want to talk about something, and I'm making a different point. If that upsets you, oh well. We'll all live. My point was that as you’re not being specific but rather all encompassing in your definition, the only people who in practice believe in any God or gods without specificity, are essentially agnostic because of their uncertainty about the God or gods in which they believe. I dispute your association of even broad theists and deists with agnostic ("Essentially"? If they were "essentially agnostic", their attitude towards God would be agnostic, not theist), and my lack of specificity is a feature, not a bug. I've already said that particular cases of religion being compatible with evolution would need to be argued on their particular grounds, and that it's of no interest here. Are you one of those people who gets all upset at the Kalam cosmological argument because "Even if it's true it doesn't prove Christianity! You shouldn't use arguments like that!"? I don’t see how you make the following statements: Easily. It's called "sticking to the topic". I'm talking about theism, you want to talk about specific religions. The two are not the same thing. Really Charles, I get it: You want to talk about Christian Theistic Evolutionists, or other particular religions. It's important to you. Fantastic - maybe another time. If your response is to cross your arms over your chest and say "Well, then what you're saying is very broad and I'll just have to be agnostic about whether Christianity or Islam is compatible with evolution!", my response is, "Great, glad we could settle that. Have a nice day."nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: If you think I’m trying to ‘prove’ that any religion which believes in a God or gods is theistic, I’ve gotta ask what you’re drinking. You haven't proven it, no, rather you have presumed it as your starting definition. Your exact words again were:
but any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic.
Unless of course you're going to quibble that "asserts the existence of" doesn't mean "believes in". Yes, except for those religions that accept (macro)evolution, religions will reject (macro)evolution. Tautologies indeed. That would be your tautology again, as I didn't make the above claim. When I asked you what non-Judeo-Christian religions made what claims of creation or evolution by their deities, you declined to answer. You made the broad tautological definition that "any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic". You declined to specify what the claims are, so you are in no position to accuse me of not understanding your intent (I did ask, you declined) or to presume "religions that accept (macro)evolution" until you demonstrate which religions so accept. As for "religions will reject (macro)evolution" my exact words were:
specific theologies will reject one or more points of theistic (macro)evolution
I didn't say religion (unqualified) nor did I say reject (macro)evolution (unqualified), did I. That was your gloss. Further, you’re incorrect to regard a generic theist as being ‘essentially’ agnostic evolutionists. By your definition a theist is "someone who believes in any God or gods" whereas an actual theist "believes in a particular God or gods" and if the term "theist" herein is to encompass all people who believe in any God or gods as oppposed to a particular God or gods, the only "theists" who are so imprecise and amorphous as to believe in any God or gods are those who don't know for sure what they believe or if the God or gods in which they believe actually exist, and such people are agnostic - they are unsure. While there are theists who believe in a particular God or gods, again when asked for specifics in your definition you declined to specify which God or gods you included and said instead broadly any (i.e. all encompassing) God or gods without qualification. My point was that as you're not being specific but rather all encompassing in your definition, the only people who in practice believe in any God or gods without specificity, are essentially agnostic because of their uncertainty about the God or gods in which they believe. My quarrel is with using "theism" both to imply theologies which may be indifferent to and therefor compatible with evolution's tenets and to imply theologies which have tenets incompatible with evolution, but declining in this discussion to be specific. I find the level of generality to be as useless as the tautologies. Accordingly, agnostics have a general "theism" which fits both implications because of their uncertainty about the specifics of their beliefs. If the claim is that God has no role in the process – not ultimately, not proximately – then that’s going to conflict with far more religions. Until you are specific about what religions and God (or gods) role in the process, I'm in no position to disagree, nor to agree. Most of all, my point with this post wasn’t to argue for theistic evolution. It was to point out that evolution is not necessitated by atheism. I don't see how you make the following statements:
Second, I’d argue that the rhetorical strengths atheists are often granted by evolution typically derive most of their strength from their opposition to very narrow, particular religious claims – if a theist adheres to an account of origins such that organisms were made whole and without precursors, then an evolutionary account of such organisms is a challenge. But if a theist believes that God could have or did use evolutionary processes in creation, the bulk of the force of the evolutionary argument – in and of itself – dissipates. Insofar as this is true, evolution doesn’t function as an evidence for atheism as much as evidence against some particular claim of one religious view – but theism itself, and religion broadly, does not require the falsity of evolution anyway.
and then decline being specific about which religions and how their tenets intersect or not with evolution's tenets.Charles
May 25, 2011
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null, I agree with you, although it is my opinion that most atheists, if convinced that life as we know it on this Earth could not have evolved in the few billion years it's been here, would either undergo a dramatic transformation in their worldview or would have to resort to fantastical natural creation tales to preserve their atheism. Evolution is not completely necessitated by atheism, but atheism sure doesn't make a lot of sense without it. More generally, though, atheism DOES necessitate a non-ID explanation of all information in all of the universe/multiverse. Life is too complex to be explained by the probabiblistic resources of this planet/unvierse? If atheism is to remain a viable worldview, it must then resort to even greater probabilistic resources to explain our current exception...like 10^500 universes or infinite/eternal universes. There might be no essential change from standard evolutionary theory to a massive/infinite multiverse resulting in the probable construction of a wildly fortunate universe that results in Earth and humans and peanut butter and prayer and Metallica, but at least in common, present-day rationality, the collapse of a standard, all-encompassing, naturalistic evolutionary theory would most likely devastate the intellectual viability of atheism as most know it.uoflcard
May 25, 2011
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Charles, That is a tautology, and while tautologies can be true, they are useless in proving anything. If you think I'm trying to 'prove' that any religion which believes in a God or gods is theistic, I've gotta ask what you're drinking. While theism is a generic term encompassing all deistic religions, in practice there are no generic theists who actually adhere to all deistic religions except maybe agnostics, and hence practicing generic theistic evolutionists would be essentially agnostic evolutionists. Theism is a minimal commitment to a belief in a God or gods. Now, particular religions or religious beliefs can include or reject various evolutionary claims, and those would be argued and investigated on a case by case basis. This just isn't the thread for that. Further, you're incorrect to regard a generic theist as being 'essentially' agnostic evolutionists. Most apologists of those specific religions would also disagree, since getting someone to 'generic' theism is something a lot of effort is devoted to, historically and in this age. Not to mention how bizarre it is to say 'atheism will embrace all the points of theistic evolution'. Biologos is a downright meek TE outfit, and they still manage to enrage atheists now and then. (Then again, what doesn't enrage the cult of gnu.) It would seem that whatever conclusions you assert for such a broad theistic evolution will not generally translate to most actual (narrower) theologies. I.e. specific theologies will reject one or more points of theistic (macro)evolution, Yes, except for those religions that accept (macro)evolution, religions will reject (macro)evolution. Tautologies indeed. It also depends on what's being asserted about evolution. If the claim is that God has no role in the process - not ultimately, not proximately - then that's going to conflict with far more religions. The problem would be that such a claim would go right beyond science and into philosophy and theology. But if you add on those riders, then something akin to creationism is unacceptable too. Most of all, my point with this post wasn't to argue for theistic evolution. It was to point out that evolution is not necessitated by atheism. Atheism in and of itself is a broad position, compatible with all manner of universes, even (perhaps particularly) irrational ones. Edit: Well, all except a diety having any initial or occasional involvement, however indirectly. Well... yeah. Kind of a big deal, that.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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Correction: while atheism (or agnosticism) will embrace them all. Well, all except a diety having any initial or occasional involvement, however indirectly.Charles
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: but any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic. That is a tautology, and while tautologies can be true, they are useless in proving anything. While theism is a generic term encompassing all deistic religions, in practice there are no generic theists who actually adhere to all deistic religions except maybe agnostics, and hence practicing generic theistic evolutionists would be essentially agnostic evolutionists. There is little difference between an all-inclusive amorphous theology and agnosticism, which is only one step removed from atheism. I don't see validity in arguing the inherent compatibility of evolution with theism when the definition of "theism" is so broadly amorphous that it has no broad adherents but only opponents broadly adverse to any/all dieties. I.e., unsurprisingly, there are no genuine theists who affirm any and all theologies broadly (except agnostics), while there are many genuine atheists who reject any and all theologies broadly. It would seem that whatever conclusions you assert for such a broad theistic evolution will not generally translate to most actual (narrower) theologies. I.e. specific theologies will reject one or more points of theistic (macro)evolution, while atheism (or agnosticism) will embrace them all. So I don't see how you'll prove your point, but I'll quietly observe henceforth. Thank you for your clarification.Charles
May 25, 2011
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Charles, I’m simply asking what religions specifically (beyond Judeo-Christianity) make what specific assertions about what their diety/theos created or evolved, regardless of whether such assertions are compatibile with current prevailing evolutionary theory. Theism itself is not a religion per se - it's a belief in God or gods. You've already given a few theistic religions (Buddhism is a trickier case), but any religion that asserts the existence of a God or gods would be theistic. I've also left aside more delicate atheist claims out of my list of examples. For instance, Nick Bostrom and John Gribbin toy with views that we live in a simulated universe or in a created non-simulated universe, respectively. Both seem to suggest such a view is compatible with atheism, certainly Darwinism. I'd question both claims, but I put those aside to keep things simple.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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Keep in mind Jesus himself was a literal creationist.
Yeah. In the science classes that Jesus took religion wasn't prohibited. So why can't we teach ID in science classese today?Mung
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: If by this you mean ‘What other religions hold it as dogma that evolution is true’, I’d say that’s the wrong question to ask. Better would be wondering what other theistic religions and beliefs are compatible with God creating, using evolution as a tool. Neither. I'm simply asking what religions specifically (beyond Judeo-Christianity) make what specific assertions about what their diety/theos created or evolved, regardless of whether such assertions are compatibile with current prevailing evolutionary theory. I'm interested firstly in what religions you include more broadly in "Theism" and your criteria for their inclusion.Charles
May 25, 2011
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Charles, Ok, but what other religions (broadly) have tenets that intersect evolution’s tenets? If by this you mean 'What other religions hold it as dogma that evolution is true', I'd say that's the wrong question to ask. Better would be wondering what other theistic religions and beliefs are compatible with God creating, using evolution as a tool. Quite a lot, I'd say. And certainly theism itself, which I focused on, is compatible with evolution fully. Either way, I'm not interested in arguing scripture here. Some other time I may devote a thread to it - right now, I'm happy to stick to the OP.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: I’m defining ‘theism’ here broadly, not restraining it to any particular religion. ... an atheist does not merely reject Christianity, but any God/god(s). Questions of Christianity in particular just aren’t on my radar in this thread. Ok, but what other religions (broadly) have tenets that intersect evolution's tenets? What non-Christian Theistic claims regarding creation of life and humans do religions (broadly) make? I'm not aware of any serious claims (from religion broadly, that aren't rooted more narrowly in Judeo-Christianity) that require a defense of theistic evolution against atheistic evolution. Is it not true that only Judeo-Christianity strongly asserts specific Theistic claims that oppose evolution? I’d disagree about your views regarding even specifically Christian TE To be specific, do you disagree that Christian Theistic Evolutionists ostensibly profess Jesus as Lord and Savior and inform their faith from scripture? Do you disagree with Mar 10:6 or interpret it to mean other than literal creation by God?Charles
May 25, 2011
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Some quick replies. Charles, I assume we define “Theist” to exclude Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. since Theistic Evolution has a largely Christian Catholic following, yes?, and therefore Theistic (macro)Evolution seems an oxymoron. Actually, no. I'm defining 'theism' here broadly, not restraining it to any particular religion. I'd disagree about your views regarding even specifically Christian TE, but an atheist does not merely reject Christianity, but any God/god(s). Questions of Christianity in particular just aren't on my radar in this thread. Joseph, Provine's comments require a lot more than evolution - they require evolution fitted with atheistic presumptions grafted on. Now, if evolution is defined as 'a process no God either foresaw nor guides in any way', a decent amount of what he says would follow. But then, it's the (philosophical, extra-scientific) stipulations he's adding that are doing the work, not evolution itself. burrito67, I agree that ID has a big PR problem. I'm interested in it since I think, at the end of the day, ID is handled in a very unfair and biased manner, that various ID concerns are legitimate, and because I think it's an important part of the variety of answers to the greater design question (which itself goes beyond ID). But either way, the PR problem isn't something I'm concerned with here. I'd be saying this even if ID's PR was stellar.nullasalus
May 25, 2011
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nullasalus: Are any first principles that make allowances for brute facts and things that are utterly inexplicable ‘reasonable’? Is it somehow more reasonable to say the universe began to exist without cause, or exists inexplicably, as opposed to eternally existing species, brutely existing creatures, inexplicably convenient laws + initial states, etc? More to Barry's point (I suspect), is that the first principles of atheism and of "macro evolution" (excluding speciation or micro evolution) conflict with the first principles of theism and hence of theistic evolution. I assume we define "Theist" to exclude Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. since Theistic Evolution has a largely Christian Catholic following, yes?, and therefore Theistic (macro)Evolution seems an oxymoron. Keep in mind Jesus himself was a literal creationist. A first principle of anyone who professes Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is that Jesus spoke truth, whereas a first principle of atheism and/or macro evolution is the human life form evolved (or descended) from lower-order lifeforms. How does any Theist reconcile evolution with Jesus claim:
Mar 10:6 NASB "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
without doing violence to the first principles of either Theism or of Evolution? Unless you can show how Theistic first principles can reconcile with macro evolution first principles, then macro evolution's first principles remain in the atheist camp. While Theistic Evolutionists often claim to reconcile their faith with evolution, in point of fact their statements of faith are often at odds with the very scripture from which they ostensibly inform their faith. A credible reconciliation will demonstrate conformity with both scripture and with evolutionary theory.Charles
May 25, 2011
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In [13] Nat writes: "In other words, you say that none of my examples follow from a reasonable set of first principles. My reply is that people have shown themselves very comfortable with accepting unreasonable first principles, if they even bother with them at all – and I’d question the suggestion that atheist first principles are all that reasonable, even ones which allow for evolution." Well, I can't disagree with you there. All thinking people must, sooner or later, address the Leibnitzean question: "Why is there something rather than nothing"? You are right. Atheists go through some pretty fantastic intellectual contortions when addressing this question. The atheist consensus seems to be "pretty much any outlandish nonsense will do for an answer so long as the answer isn't 'God'" But, as I said before, this is only trivially true when addressing your original question. Barry Arrington
May 25, 2011
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Null: Do you see why I stress the descriptive term, [Lewontin-Sagan style] evolutionary materialism? As in:
To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.]
Such and their fellow travellers are advancing the indefensible. And, they richly merit the riposte of Johnson:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
And that is before we get to the issue that there is serious reason to doubt that chance variation and trial and error based culling can account for the origin of life or of body plans. Which is where the rationale for the design inference bites deepest. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 25, 2011
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This must be a very clever post, but for the life of me I can't figure out why.allanius
May 25, 2011
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What that means is that teaching the theory of evolution in US public school classrooms violates the establishment clause in the US constitution.Joseph
May 25, 2011
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Hey Neil Rickert- As if it had to be said-
In other words, religion is compatible with modern evolutionary biology (and indeed all of modern science) if the religion is effectively indistinguishable from atheism.1
The frequently made assertion that modern biology and the assumptions of the Judaeo-Christian tradition are fully compatible is false.2
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.3
As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism.4
click here for a hint:
‘Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.’ 5
Thank you for your honesty Will Provine. 1- Academe January 1987 pp.51-52 † 2-Evolutionary Progress (1988) p. 65 † 3- “Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life” 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address 1 2 † 4- No Free Will (1999) p.123 5- Provine, W.B., Origins Research 16(1), p.9, 1994.Joseph
May 25, 2011
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The reason I'm here yammerin' away is because I'm not a scientist. I'm an artist with a background in marketing strategies and advertising. It really bothers me that ID has become wrongfully synonymous with Creationism. Sheldon's mother made reference to it on "the Big Bang Theory" It's all over youTube and the Kitzmiller v Dover descision which are all killing ID as having any real scientific merit in the eyes of popular culture. I just want to be constructive but I don't think this website is doing a good job of promoting ID either. Aside from web 2.0 being so hostile at times, are you guys really in the business to win anybody over? Okay so maybe Darwinian theorists and atheists can sometime put a bug up your butt, however when your popularity is this bad and misunderstood, you're not in any position to try and marginalize these people. This is a really exciting time for scientific discovery. I just wish I knew who to talk to about launching a media campaign to gather more support for ID. I don't have any money, so I'm not volunteering.burrito67
May 25, 2011
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myname, What is curious about this post is that it seems to run against the ID intelligentsia’s strong interest to influence how evolution is taught in high school biology classrooms. If what nullasalus says was widely accepted why would anyone bother? Why would anything I'm saying impact the argument to teach ID in schools, or even change how evolution is taught? If someone believes that design can be and has been inferred via scientific means, that seems to be all that's necessary to start mounting the relevant ID argument. Maybe you mean teaching the current failings and problems of Darwinism, but again, I don't see where what I've said impacts that - any supposed failings and problems of and for Darwinism would be so in a scientific sense. I'm talking about philosophy and metaphysics here, by anyone's measure.nullasalus
May 24, 2011
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What is curious about this post is that it seems to run against the ID intelligentsia's strong interest to influence how evolution is taught in high school biology classrooms. If what nullasalus says was widely accepted why would anyone bother?myname
May 24, 2011
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The initiatives for ID are so moderate and rational and researchers are actually pushing through more indepth discoveries while being applied with objectivity. Concluding that something evolved randomly can be just as scientifically unmotivated as giving God full credit for our existence. Atheism and Creationism are just two extreme polar opposites. The definition of ID is that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process" which I think is big motivator to keep on doing research, but instead it is motivating people to keep arguing. The moderate proponents of ID don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water in terms of evolution. They want to keep scientific research alive. The universe can appear messy and out of balance, but we cannot conclude that there is no method to the madness. The real big problem is that academia can be stubborn whenever a new discovery conflicts with an existing paradigm. I could have sworn that mainstream society was excited with the paradigm shift that we are now dealing with a multidimensional reality back in the "90s. What the hell happened?burrito67
May 24, 2011
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Barry, Yes, as a matter of strict logic, all of our perceptions could be the product of a Boltzmann Brain, or we could be in the Matrix or in the grip of a Cartesian demon. But a Boltzmann Brain is just one of the possibilities. I didn't bring up matrixes or cartesians demons at all, interesting as they'd be to put in the running. Now, I did appeal to various brute, inexplicable facts (inexplicable not in that we lack the explanation for them, but that there is no explanation.) But these are pretty common in atheist views now, to say nothing of the past. Granted, these brute, inexplicable facts are usually deployed elsewhere nowadays (at the big bang, at the sheer existence of the universe, at the regularity of nature, etc) - but brute facts they are. More on this below. Turning to your examples, none of them bears up in any system of reasonable first principles. Are any first principles that make allowances for brute facts and things that are utterly inexplicable 'reasonable'? Is it somehow more reasonable to say the universe began to exist without cause, or exists inexplicably, as opposed to eternally existing species, brutely existing creatures, inexplicably convenient laws + initial states, etc? Please keep in mind I ask these questions in an age where multiverse speculations - even infinite multiverse speculations - are fairly popular. Including infinite multiverses where in a single universe examples far more outlandish than I gave would be actual. (As I said, I tried to keep my possibilities relatively tame, but we're talking 'tame' in a scenario where brute facts are accepted.) To say nothing of other, equally outlandish views, usually quantum-inspired. In other words, you say that none of my examples follow from a reasonable set of first principles. My reply is that people have shown themselves very comfortable with accepting unreasonable first principles, if they even bother with them at all - and I'd question the suggestion that atheist first principles are all that reasonable, even ones which allow for evolution. Really, I can even imagine a hypothetical reply: "Who says reality has to be reasonable?" That assumption alone at least gestures in the direction of theism, when considering the universe and nature.nullasalus
May 24, 2011
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nullasalus, you are correct. As a matter of pure logic, atheism does not necessarily entail materialist evolution. Unfortunately, you are correct in only a trivial way. Let me explain. Yes, as a matter of strict logic, all of our perceptions could be the product of a Boltzmann Brain, or we could be in the Matrix or in the grip of a Cartesian demon. All of these concepts are closely related and are perhaps epitomized by Bishop Berkeley’s idealism. Berkeley argued that we cannot really “know” an object outside of our mind and that the only reality we can really experience is our perception of things, not the things themselves. Boswell records Dr. Johnson’s response to Berkeley: “After we came out of the church, we stood and spoke some time together of Bishop Berkeley’ sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it – ‘I refute it thus.’” Johnson's point was NOT that he had disproved Berkeley as a strictly logical matter. Boswell was quite correct; this is impossible. Johnson's point is that FIRST PRINCIPLES cannot be demonstrated. They must be assumed. In philosophy-speak we accept first principles a priori. And one of the first principles we all accept is that things exist independently of our perception of them, even though we cannot demonstrate this principle as a matter of pure logic. Turning to your examples, none of them bears up in any system of reasonable first principles. Berkeley's idealism is possible as a matter of pure logic, but we are all, like Dr. Johnson, stone kickers. In the same way, none of your scenarios is, strictly speaking, logically impossible, but none of them bears up in any reasonable system of first principles. Where does this lead us with respect to the question you set out to examine (i.e., does atheism logically entail materialist evolution?) It means that under any reasonable set of first principles, as a matter of all but irrefutable practical reason, atheism does in fact entail materialist evolution.Barry Arrington
May 24, 2011
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As Philip Johnson has so ably demonstrated, defining the terms is a huge part of the battle. The word "evolution" has numerous meanings and is used (both in the literature and popularly) to describe a whole range of ideas, from the obvious and well-supported at one end of the spectrum to the outrageous and wildly-speculative at the other end. Any kind of rational debate necessarily starts with defining terms and ascertaining what is being debated. Unfortunately, this takes time and effort and many folks prefer to scream their pet theories loudly before establishing a rational basis for discussion. The internet (quick comments, other people jumping in at various points, off-topic tangents, stale threads, etc.) makes it all the more difficult, so we have to sift through a lot of stuff for gems. Still, though, lots of good stuff out there for the patient!Eric Anderson
May 24, 2011
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If we really want to promote ID as a scientific directive and disassociate it from Creationism we have to remain objective and refrain from irritating the Atheist population. (The pictures of Pat Robertson and Sarah Pallin aren't helping the cause.) Is the designer God, Vishnu and Kalli or perhaps beings from the Pleiadian star system? The concept of reverse engineering nature is highly beneficial for promoting scientific discovery. But a lot of folks are making it a hard sell to the educational sector. The kids that will become the next generation of scientist need to be better informed about the remarkable advances in molecular biology wherein the medical sector can do a whole hell of a lot better in fixing the sick and disabled. I'm also concerned with some of the links promoting corporate deregulation. The pharmaceutical industry seems to be more concerned with fiscal responsibility by keeping the sick, sick and medicated. Shouldn't the real objective be about curing desease?burrito67
May 24, 2011
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one foot planted in the theistic evolution camp I think your problem is right there. Evolution has nothing to do with Atheism, other than the fact that rational thinkers tend to discard superstition and accept material explanations as a single process. If you think there is a god, and he guided evolution along, well, good luck.Graham
May 24, 2011
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