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Coffee!! Darwin’s finches wait your answer

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In “Evolution Drives Many Plants and Animals to Be Bigger, Faster (ScienceDaily, Mar. 9, 2011), we learn:

For the vast majority of plants and animals, the ‘bigger is better’ view of evolution may not be far off the mark, says a new broad-scale study of natural selection. Organisms with bigger bodies or faster growth rates tend to live longer, mate more and produce more offspring, whether they are deer or damselflies, the authors report.

Researchers working at the National Evolutionary Synthesis Center compiled and reviewed nearly 150 published estimates of natural selection, representing more than 100 species of birds, lizards, snakes, insects and plants. The results confirm that for most plants and animals, larger body size and earlier seasonal timing — such as earlier breeding, blooming or hatching — confer significant survival advantages.

“It’s a very widespread pattern,” said co-author Joel Kingsolver of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Hmmm. Various suggestions are offered, including

Another possibility is that environments simply change from one season to the next, such that the traits that confer the greatest advantage change over time. “In Darwin’s finches, for example, there are years where large-beaked birds have an advantage because large seeds are more abundant, and years where smaller-beaked birds do better because small seeds are more abundant,” Diamond said.

So, is it okay now to admit that Darwin’s finches are not evolving rapidly into new species, but rather one type or another is simply more likely to dominate, depending on the weather pattern?

Comments
EXCUSE ME? neo-Darwinism is not based on the random variations of material particles??? Why paulmc you have just overturned 150 years of Darwinian thinking!!!
You miss my point, BA77. Of course it is, but that view does not require that atoms are the fundamental level of existence. Something more fundamental could easily exist (and does). There could be levels of organisation more fundamental than the quantum world too. Who would know? NeoDarwinism is not falsified by quantum phenomena in the same way that biology is not falsified by the existence of chemistry (even though at one time, we understood the what we did of the world of biology without any real knowledge of chemistry). Perhaps with greater understanding, the quantum world will lead to changes in how we view emergent phenomena like evolution. At the moment we are not there, but the prospect sounds exciting to me.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, it is clear that you have no interest in the truth, for you merely don't care about believing in God for whatever personal reason, and will put up any convoluted excuse, no matter how transparent, just so you can deceive yourself into believing God does not exist. Thus I will give you the last shot, but I will not respond anymore for it is futile and I have better things to do than waste hours with you.bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, you claim, IOW what you claim is required by the “Darwinian” framework is not required at all. EXCUSE ME? neo-Darwinism is not based on the random variations of material particles??? Why paulmc you have just overturned 150 years of Darwinian thinking!!! It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology, for how can quantum entanglement, in molecular biology, possibly be explained by the materialistic framework of neo-Darwinism, a framework which is predicated on the presupposition of being constrained by time and space, when Alain Aspect and company falsified the validity of local realism (reductive materialism) in the first place with quantum entanglement? It is simply ludicrous to appeal to the materialistic framework, which undergirds the entire neo-Darwinian framework, that has been falsified by the very same quantum entanglement effect that one is seeking an explanation to! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Probability arguments, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply!bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, I think this video is very pertinent: Richard Dawkins Lies About William Lane Craig AND Logic! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cfqV2tuOI Notice that this is from the Debate: Does the Universe have a purpose? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6tIee8FwX8 Arguments that Dawkins refused to address or even offer counter-argument to; 1. Argument From Contingency - God is the best explanation for why anything exists rather than nothing. 2. Kalam Cosmological Argument - God is the best explanation for the beginning of the universe. 3. Teleological Argument - God is the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe for intelligent life. 4. Moral Argument - God is the best explanation for the existence of objective moral values and duties in the world,,, even for the existence of evil which is a departure from the way things 'ought' to be. 5. Ontological Argument - modal - The very possibility of God's existence entails that God exists. 6, Comprehensibility Argument - God is the best explanation for why the universe can be grasped and understood by the mind of man in the first place. 7. Law Like Structure Argument - God is the best explanation for why the universe obeys a set of invariant transcendent laws. God Is Not Dead Yet - William Lane Craig - article discussing each argument http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=1 Reasonable Faith - Dr. William Lane Craig’s official website: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServerbornagain77
March 19, 2011
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Do you presuppose atoms and molecules to be the ultimate basis of reality, as is required by the Darwinian framework? i.e. reductive materialism?
We appear to be getting somewhere. No, I do not accept that "atoms and molecules" are the ultimate basis of reality. That is not a modern view of materialism. The quantum world is a part of modern materialism. That it has laws unique to that level of organisation is not evidence against materialism - all levels of organisation have this property. Please consider reading some recent work on the topic by someone sympathetic to a materialist understanding of the world, I've already suggested an author above. IOW what you claim is required by the "Darwinian" framework is not required at all.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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As far as morality, I maintain that Jesus is the highest moral authority on Earth since He was God incarnate! Who do you say He was/is if you even admit that He existed at all? Was He just a good man? Who exactly do you say that He was? As far as the falsification of materialism; Do you presuppose atoms and molecules to be the ultimate basis of reality, as is required by the Darwinian framework? i.e. reductive materialism? falsification of reductive materialism; The Failure Of Local Realism – Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. Double-slit experiment Excerpt: In 1999 objects large enough to see under a microscope, buckyball (interlocking carbon atom) molecules (diameter about 0.7 nm, nearly half a million times that of a proton), were found to exhibit wave-like interference. falsification of non-reductive materialism; Gödel’s Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century Excerpt: Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume to be true but cannot prove “mathematically” to be true.” THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS – DAVID P. GOLDMAN – August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed ‘Presuppositional apologetics’. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists – easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Dr. Bruce Gordon – The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that “nothing” is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse – where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause – produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. etc.. etc.. etc.. So paulmc who do you say Jesus was, and which form a materialism do you care to defend? Or will you play the ‘you just understand what I’m talking about because I’m smarter than you’ card?bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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As far as morality, I maintain that Jesus is the highest moral authority on Earth since He was God incarnate! Who do you say He was/is if you even admit that He existed at all? Was He just a good man? Who exactly do you say that He was? As far as the falsification of materialism; Do you presuppose atoms and molecules to be the ultimate basis of reality, as is required by the Darwinian framework? i.e. reductive materialism? falsification of reductive materialism; The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Double-slit experiment Excerpt: In 1999 objects large enough to see under a microscope, buckyball (interlocking carbon atom) molecules (diameter about 0.7 nm, nearly half a million times that of a proton), were found to exhibit wave-like interference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment falsification of non-reductive materialism; Gödel’s Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century Excerpt: Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle - something you have to assume to be true but cannot prove "mathematically" to be true.” http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/incompleteness/ THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ etc.. etc.. etc.. So paulmc who do you say Jesus was, and which form a materialism do you care to defend? Or will you play the 'you just understand what I'm talking about because I'm smarter than you' card?bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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I do not want to play games, I would like you to address the actual points I have made. For all of your repetition of Aspect's work on quantum entanglement, it has been known for a long time that his work is not conclusive. Regardless of this, his work does not justify a leap to a theistic worldview. You've never defined what you think materialism is, such that it has been refuted, or really how theism is supposed to resolve this problem in a coherent fashion. Are you sure you're being consistent with a modern perspective on materialism (e.g. someone like Philip Stahl)?paulmc
March 19, 2011
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Now paulmc, if you refute the scientific proof I mustered, and can further muster, against the materialistic framework, or if you want to argue from different form of Theism than Christianity so that you may have a foundation to argue from in the first place, then you may legitimately continue to debate the peculiars that arise within the Theistic framework. But as I see it, and whether you admit it or not, you no longer have a leg to stand on in which to make your 'materialistic case'!bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, I show you that, according to the best scientific evidence we have, materialism itself is false and theism is true, and you want to play games because moral standards have varied??? This is ludicrous paulmc, since materialism is shown to be false you have no basis in reality in which to appeal for a precept to argue to and from!!! That is exactly why I 'flooded' you with the scientific proof against materialism, for it undercuts any legitimate foundation you may have thought/imagined you had in the first place! With no materialistic foundation You simply have no basis in reality!!!bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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In your three flood-posts you have failed to address the three points I actually made: 1) The lack of consensus within Christianity on abortion, both currently and throughout history. 2) The lack of cross-cultural standards of morality that have remained unchanged over human history. This contradicts Craig's explicit statement that morals are absolute and independent of a belief in god. 3) That morality has the strong appearance of being socially derived rather than absolute, and that our status as social animals is precisely what gives the foundation for a material view of morality.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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So Basically paulmc reality is shown to be theistic in its foundation, as well 'physical' evidence strongly supports the conclusion that our souls, the real us, goes to a 'eternal' dimension when we die. And yet though you have been shown that a 'Mind' is behind reality, you prefer to live in a world of materialistic make believe? This is totally irrational paulmc! further notes; These following studies and videos confirm this 'superior quality' of existence for our souls/minds: Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ Quantum Consciousness - Time Flies Backwards? - Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual....). In Radin and Bierman's early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/TimeFlies.html Study suggests precognition may be possible - November 2010 Excerpt: A Cornell University scientist has demonstrated that psi anomalies, more commonly known as precognition, premonitions or extra-sensory perception (ESP), really do exist at a statistically significant level. Psi anomalies are defined as "anomalous processes of information or energy transfer that are currently unexplained in terms of known physical or biological mechanisms." Mind-Brain Interaction and Science Fiction (Quantum connection) - Jeffrey Schwartz & Michael Egnor - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-01T17_28_39-08_00 In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation. After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories (information) inside the brain.,, In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the “invisible and not measurable” consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication,,,bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/journals.asp?iid=47 As well, please note the ’4-Dimensionality’ that pervades every measurement for ‘power scaling’ in biology; The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection.” Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/ Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for ‘random’ Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this ‘four dimensional scaling’ of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional ‘expectation’ for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an ‘emergent’ property of the 3-D material realm. As well, please note the uniqueness of this 3-Dimensional image on this 2-Dimensional surface: Shroud Of Turin’s Unique 3 Dimensionality – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfgbornagain77
March 19, 2011
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And paul once again I point out that materialism, which you presuppose to be true, has no absolute framework for you to work with in the first place; Atheists impart the word ‘imaginary’ to things spiritual to denote what they believe is a non-conformity to reality, but the fact is that the ‘physical’ evidence actually indicates that it is their very own belief in a ‘absolute 3-D material frame of reference’ that is what is truly ‘imaginary’ in the first place? Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (personally I feel the word “illusion” was a bit too strong from Dr. Henry to describe material reality and would myself have opted for his saying something a little more subtle like; “material reality is a “secondary reality” that is dependent on the primary reality of God’s mind” to exist. Then again I’m not a professor of physics at a major university as Dr. Henry is.) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html further notes; atheists also think that life after death itself is ‘imaginary’. Yet to suggest ‘imaginary’ denotes that someone thinks that life after death is somehow a ‘non-conformity’ to reality. Yet, there are several lines of evidence that point to the ‘physical’ reality of a ‘higher dimension’ above this 3-Dimensional (3-D) reality; Please note how 3-D reality folds and collapses into a tunnel shape, in direction of travel, as the constant for the speed of light is approached, in this following video. Please pay particular attention to the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 minute mark; Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ Note how the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 mark matches the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ effect noted in many Near Death Experiences, as well as conforms to the tunnel experience Bill Wiese mentioned in the video; The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ As well, please note mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY As well, please note how special relativity also confirms the reality of a higher ‘eternal’ dimension for time, which is also noted in very many Near Death Experiences; ,,, when traveling at the speed of light time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. speed of light travel gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension ‘eternal’ inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’ Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences As well, please note how quantum entanglement cannot be reduced to any explanation in this 3-D material framework; Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 And please note, how this quantum entanglement, which blatantly defies any constraints of this 3-D material realm, is found to be integral and foundational to molecular biology i.e. to biological life; Quantum Information In DNA & Protein Folding http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Further evidence that quantum entanglement/information is found throughout entire protein structures: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/rescue-proteins-leave-evolutionists-in-the-ditch/#comment-373214 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford.bornagain77
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And paul once again I point out that materialism, which you presuppose to be true, has no absolute framework for you to work with in the first place; Atheists impart the word ‘imaginary’ to things spiritual to denote what they believe is a non-conformity to reality, but the fact is that the 'physical' evidence actually indicates that it is their very own belief in a ‘absolute 3-D material frame of reference’ that is what is truly ‘imaginary’ in the first place? Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (personally I feel the word “illusion” was a bit too strong from Dr. Henry to describe material reality and would myself have opted for his saying something a little more subtle like; “material reality is a “secondary reality” that is dependent on the primary reality of God’s mind” to exist. Then again I’m not a professor of physics at a major university as Dr. Henry is.) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html further notes; atheists also think that life after death itself is 'imaginary'. Yet to suggest ‘imaginary’ denotes that someone thinks that life after death is somehow a 'non-conformity' to reality. Yet, there are several lines of evidence that point to the 'physical' reality of a ‘higher dimension’ above this 3-Dimensional (3-D) reality; Please note how 3-D reality folds and collapses into a tunnel shape, in direction of travel, as the constant for the speed of light is approached, in this following video. Please pay particular attention to the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 minute mark; Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ Note how the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 mark matches the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ effect noted in many Near Death Experiences, as well as conforms to the tunnel experience Bill Wiese mentioned in the video; The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ As well, please note mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY As well, please note how special relativity also confirms the reality of a higher ‘eternal’ dimension for time, which is also noted in very many Near Death Experiences; ,,, when traveling at the speed of light time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. speed of light travel gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension ‘eternal’ inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest http://www.readersdigest.co.za/article/10170%26pageno=3 “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’ Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences As well, please note how quantum entanglement cannot be reduced to any explanation in this 3-D material framework; Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 And please note, how this quantum entanglement, which blatantly defies any constraints of this 3-D material realm, is found to be integral and foundational to molecular biology i.e. to biological life; Quantum Information In DNA & Protein Folding http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Further evidence that quantum entanglement/information is found throughout entire protein structures: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/rescue-proteins-leave-evolutionists-in-the-ditch/#comment-373214 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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All of that (which I had preemptively acknowledged) fails to explain the lack of consensus within Christianity on abortion, both currently and throughout history.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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HOLY SCRIPTURES ON ABORTION The Holy Scriptures speak of a fetus as a person, not simply tissue that can be discarded if found to be a bother or nuisance. Since the fetus is a person from the moment of conception, then the destroying of the fetus is killing a person. "In the past, some people have mistakenly speculated that perhaps the body might be in the process of formation for some time, and then 'God breathes a soul into it.' They had it backward. The life that is present forms matter into a body for itself' (Joseph Breig, "Life Forms Matter," The Catholic News, Jan. 24, 1974, p. 8). "Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk ... and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit" (Job 10:8-12 NIV). "Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name...and now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:1, 5). "The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations’" (Jeremiah 1:4-5). In the following passages we note that personality is ascribed to the unborn. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that fully well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16). "Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him" (Psalm 127:3). Exodus 21:22-25 relates how Israel was to judge a circumstance relating to the death of the unborn: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." All of the latter deals with unintentional hurt that comes to a pregnant woman; how much more will divine penalty come upon those who intentionally discard the fetus? The Gospel of Luke ascribes personality to the fetus within Elizabeth: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (1:41, 44). Mere tissue does not leap for joy; only personhood leaps for joy. The Bible regards the fetus as having personality. In Galatians, Paul speaks of himself as a person while still in his mother's womb, but more a person consecrated by God for a holy mission (compare Jeremiah 1:5 for the same accent): "But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles..." (Gal. 1: 15-16). Since the Bible regards the fetus as personality, then the aborting of the fetus is murdering personality. Some verses from Scripture dealing with murder are then appropriate for study, such as Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." Also, read Exodus 23:7: "Have nothing to do with a false charge, and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty." Note I Peter 4:15: "If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer..." "For all the talk of freedom and self-determination, the abortion movement is at its heart a movement denying rights to a silent segment of humanity and soliciting public sanction, support and subsidy to its own cause" (Donald P. Shoemaker, ABORTION, THE BIBLE AND THE CHRISTIAN, Hayes Publishing Co., 1976, p. iv). http://www.illinoisrighttolife.org/ScripturesOnAbortion.htmbornagain77
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, it is impossible to derive any morality whatsoever from materialism
I know of no evidence for objective and eternal moral truths, only for socially derived morality. As I said, our morality appears to derive from our biological, social nature. Craig claims that objective moral standards exist independently of one's belief in God (i.e. we intrinsically know right from wrong). So why are there not cross-cultural standards of morality that have remained unchanged over human history? This seems odd if we accept that a belief in God is not required - which Craig explicitly states is the foundation of atheistic morals.
As well please answer my question on the 47 million abortions.
OK, you want to pin abortion on atheism. However, there are - as you must know - a large number of Christians who also accept abortion. I know there are a handful of odds and ends in the bible that can be loosely interpreted as anti-abortion. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of direct guidance there. Maybe this is why there isn't a christian consensus on abortion. Interestingly, over the history of Christianity there has been nothing like a consensus on abortion at all. The current stance is relatively recent.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, it is impossible to derive any morality whatsoever from materialism; William Lane Craig - Moral Relativism - Cruel Logic - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347138/ As well please answer my question on the 47 million abortions.bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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you need to see materialism for what it is, and cannot pick and choose what moral precepts from Christianity that make your life better without realizing the fact that materialism offers you zero foundation for establishing a moral basis in the first place.
This is bollocks. I do not pick bits of Christianity to live by. I live as I see fit, and many of the principles coincide because they are sensible. The moral basis is biologically derived: we are highly intelligent social beings. What is good for society at any given time is considered morally good at the time. Indeed, there are few constants in morality if we look over time and between cultures.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, It's all good, thanks for being a good sport. (Sonfaro now runs far away from the argument.) -_-' - SonfaroSonfaro
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, you need to see materialism for what it is, and cannot pick and choose what moral precepts from Christianity that make your life better without realizing the fact that materialism offers you zero foundation for establishing a moral basis in the first place. As Paul Nelson stated in this podcast; Nonsense of a High Order: The Confused and Illusory World of the Atheist http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2011-03-18T16_07_16-07_00 ,,, you would not want to live next door to a materialist who actually lived consistently within his worldview!bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, to get to a more 'hard' number, is 47 million abortions in America since 1967 the result of Christianity or not? If not do you consider 47 million abortions to be upholding to the 'fabric of society' as you put it?bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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A lot of people become Christians late in life when they are finally are ‘broken’ enough to realize they need Christ in their lives ... I can tell you that my life was an absolute mess before I completely accepted Christ.
Sure. I'm happy for you that you found something that works for you and helps to keep you grounded. That's a fantastic thing - and everyone needs that in their life, whereever they get it from. On the other hand, people who lack a belief in God are not generally broken or in need of Christ or other religious consolation as they have equivalent foundations that support them in other parts of their lives. While we're making personal disclosures, I'll say that I was raised as a Christian myself. I have no animosity towards Christianity, but do not feel that it added anything to my life. Nor did I ever have the sense that it was "true". On a personal level I accept many of the principles of the NT because they resonate with me. I also have the freedom to reject those aspects that I don't agree with.paulmc
March 19, 2011
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Meh, I didn’t think you were. I’m just not sure your Christian/Atheist marriage comparison is as sound as you think it is. Only reason I posted.
Fair enough, and you may well be right. The only point I was trying to make is that there isn't evidence as far as I can see that atheism is destroying the fabric of societies, while Christianity is the pillar of morality (which was in response to BA77 on prayer in american schools).paulmc
March 19, 2011
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as well paulmc, A lot of people become Christians late in life when they are finally are 'broken' enough to realize they need Christ in their lives so thus the divorce rate is truly a 'fluid' number by which to decide if Christianity has impacted lives for good or evil. As for my personal life, I can tell you that my life was an absolute mess before I completely accepted Christ.bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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"Sonfaro – the rate of divorce refers to the proportion of people who get divorced, not the total number. Fundamentalist Christians have a higher divorce rate than atheists (and a higher rate than Catholics)." Again though, there are people out there who think marriage is crap in the first place and decide just to live together. This is typically an irreligious position, as after a while if one of the two is religious there tends to be an itch to get married eventually. Just saying 'fundys get divorced more' feels like it ignores the whole 'Atheists don't always marry anyway' issue. -"I am not painting a picture of those Christians as hypocrites or bad people. I am saying blaming atheism is not a straightforward proposition, and likewise Christianity is not a magic bullet for social problems." Meh, I didn't think you were. I'm just not sure your Christian/Atheist marriage comparison is as sound as you think it is. Only reason I posted. - SonfaroSonfaro
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, again you are being unfair in your judgment. Though the Spanish were a 'Christian' nation, they were driven by their 'evil' lust for gold to so brutally treat the American Indians rather that by any overriding love to 'spread the gospel'. And again the Atheists MURDERED FAR MORE OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE than in wars against other people. paulmc, that you would ignore that absolutely shocking fact shows that you could care less about the truth and are only concerned with protecting your atheistic belief no matter what lie you have to tell yourself or what contrived rationalization you have to believe. The sheer and blatant dishonesty you are subjecting yourself to would be absolutely funny for me if the consequences were not so horrendous for you! Bill Wiese on Sid Roth - 23 Minutes In Hell - Scientific Reality of 'Eternal Dimension' discussed in Description http://www.vimeo.com/21230371bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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The numbers come straight from a survey. I suppose you are now accusing those who conducted the survey of some unknown conspiracy against you. I have no judgement against Christianity, I am not trying to score cheap points. I am trying to address some balance. You are deciding cause and effect by ignoring all the complex factors that have led to genocide and singling out atheism. Again, I am not judging anyone. Let me quote myself: "I am not painting a picture of those Christians as hypocrites or bad people. I am saying blaming atheism is not a straightforward proposition, and likewise Christianity is not a magic bullet for social problems."paulmc
March 19, 2011
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paulmc, as I have already outlined, and you refused to acknowledge, the number you cite is severely 'nursed', whereas I did no 'nursing' whatsoever in the body count of atheistic countries! That you would be reduced to such a deceptive tactic of 'selective statistics' to try to score a few cheap points against Christianity is really quite telling as to how unbalanced is your judgment against Christianity.bornagain77
March 19, 2011
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