Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Cost of maintenance and construction of design, neutral theory supports ID and/or creation

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Most of biological ID literature is focused on Irreducible Complexity and Specified Complexity (Specified Improbability) and information theory, no free lunch, critique of OOL, the Cambrian explosion, etc,

But there is another line of argument that is devastating to the claims of mindless evolution that has been underappreciated partly because it is highly technical, and in many cases most biologists will not even learn it in detail, namely that most molecular evolution is non-Darwinian.

Here is the simplest way to understand why evolution is mostly non-Darwinian. The ability to select for or against a trait involves the cost of sacrificing individual lives. When we spend money we have a limited budget to buy things. From our budget we can select to have maintenance done on our houses, cars, computers, our bodies (healthcare) or we can buy other thing to accumulate possessions.

What Darwin and most Darwinists do not realize is that selection for individual traits likewise comes at cost. To select to maintain one part of the genome means that there is no budget to maintain another part of the genome. To select to construct new features of the genome means one must abandon the maintenance budget of another part. This will be true even if the selection process is done by an intelligent agency like a human. The reason most computerized “proofs” of evolutionism like Dawkins Weasel and Avida are invalid is they do not model the problem of cost of maintaining and constructing mutli gigabit complex designs.

To understand things more clearly, here is a hypothetical illustration. If an asexually reproducing species could only have one offspring, selection must necessarily be neutral because there is no reproductive excess, there is zero “money” to carry out selection. If there are harmful mutations along the way, oh well, no “money” of excess reproduction to fix it. This would be an extreme case of Muller’s ratchet where the bad irreversibly just keeps accumulating.

Now if an asexually reproducing species could have two offspring, it now has a little more “money” in the form of reproductive excess to select to maintain one trait that goes bad. Let’s say one of the two offspring develops a bad mutation and the other doesn’t. We can expend him, or dare I say “spend” him to fix the genome. But our selection budget would be blown if each of the kids develop 1 bad mutation each, and it would really be blown if they develop 100 bad mutations each! And at this point we are not even considering the budget needed to build new functional traits.

When we actually do careful accounting of the costs of natural selection envisioned by Darwin and Dawkins versus the available money of reproductive excess, we realize that if evolution happens, it must be mostly free of selection as a matter of principle, and thus mostly neutral. There is simply not enough “money” in the form of reproductive excess to maintain and construct complex designs composed of billions of nucleotide and epigenetic “traits”. There is some selection obviously, because there is some “money” to do a little bit, but not enough.

The accounting of the cost of selection can be done in a number of ways. One way to demonstrate this is through the equations of population genetics, and the other way is a computer simulation that does the accounting. One of the best, if not the best computer accounting simulations is Mendel’s Accountant written by the dream team of creationist population genetics. The irony then is population geneticists, PZ Myers, Larry Moran, the YECs have had a rare moment of agreement where they have all signed the claim, “most molecular evolution is non-Darwinian.”

But if most evolution is non-Darwinian, maintenance much less construction of design cannot be explained by Darwinism, then the case for ID is strengthened.

Now if most evolution had been non-Darwinian, one would rightly argue it would have been a random walk, and thus not much better than a tornado going trough a junkyard. Creationist have seized on this and said, “well we’re not a junkyard, therefore some non-random process must have created designs in nature, hence we are designed”. In contrast, Larry Moran and friends have said “evolution is a random walk and we are obviously junkyards and you’re an IDiot if you think biological organisms are mostly functional.”

[cross posted at CEU IDCS Cost of maintenance and construction of design, neutral theory supports ID and/or creation]

Comments
jerry: I am absolutely convinced that transposons are a powerful tool for gene design. They model functional sequences from non coding sequences. Intelligently. I have defended that model of "guided mutation as an implementation of design" many times here. And transposons are the most likely implementation tool, at present. The simple fact is: if transposons (or any other mechanism) acted randomly, they would just be a variant of random variation, and they could never generate complex functional information, as they seem to do.gpuccio
April 30, 2014
April
04
Apr
30
30
2014
07:48 AM
7
07
48
AM
PDT
AVS:
And the truth is poochy, that there is a mountain of evidence that suggests evolution is the explanation for the diversity of species we see today.
Only if it started with a huge diversity, including metazoans. BTW there still isn't any eviodence for natural selection actually doing somethingJoe
April 30, 2014
April
04
Apr
30
30
2014
06:22 AM
6
06
22
AM
PDT
Eric and gpuccio, If you do not read this, I will post it again when it is appropriate I was able to get a pdf of the Brosius article I referred to above. In this and other articles, he cites chapter and verse on how genes arise. Here are a couple of excerpts from this article that show how they think:
An extension of Wally Gilbert's metaphor "exons in a sea of introns" (Gilbert 1978). Functional nuons are is lands in a sea of nonfunctional (nonaptive) sequences. Nevertheless, any of those sequences has the potential to be exapted into novel functions (Brosius and Gould 1992; Balakirev and Ayala 2003). While "plate tectonics," or exon shuffling, occasionally leads to rearrange ments of existing functional nuons (Gilbert 1978), retro position, the major force in the plasticity of genomes, which in our analogy is more akin to volcanic eruptions, frequently creates new nuons. Initially, most nuons (is lands) are barren (nonfunctional, nonaptive) but have the potential to be fertilized by some microevolutionary base changes or short indels and exapted as functional nuons. Nonfunctional nuons erode over time and the is lands disappear in the sea of anonymous sequences. An interesting example is the recruitment of part of an Alu retronuon as an alternative exon in an isoform of the cytokine tumor necrosis factor receptor. Insertion of the Alu element occurred after Anthropoidea split from pro simians and a subsequent point mutation generated an ATG start codon. This base substitution alone, however, was not sufficient for exaptation of the Alu element as a protein-coding exon, as this sequence is nonaptive (not used as part of an alternative mRNA) in Platyrrhini. Only two additional small changes in the lineage lead ing to Catarrhini including apes, a C->T transition to generate a GT 5' splice site and a 7-bp deletion to pro vide translation into the next exon in the correct reading frame, led to generation and exaptation of this alternative exon (Singer et al. 2004).
A nuon is any distinct nucleic acid, a defined sequence module (Brosius and Gould 1992). The term can be used with a prefix (e.g., retronuon) to designate any DNA module that was generated by retroposition. I prefer retronuon over retroposon and especially over transposable element (TE) or mobile element (ME). In fact, any RNA is a potential mobile element: if a segment of the genome is transcribed in the germline it has the potential to serve as template for retroposition (hence, RNA might be considered the ultimate selfish unit). However, upon integration into the genome, there is no guarantee for autonomous transcription in the germline, which results in a loss of mobility. The original transcript, how ever, can serve as a template for retroposition multiple times. In contrast to TE or ME, the term "retronuon" solely indicates the mode of origin, but not the potential for successive amplification. Only a minority of retronuons are true TEs or MEs, such as endogenous retroviruses or intact LINE elements [see Brosius 2003a]).
An online previous study by Brosius and Gould is here http://www.pnas.org/content/89/22/10706.full.pdf The abstract
ABSTRACT Genomic nomenclature has not kept pace with the levels and depth of analyzing and understanding genomic struure, function, and evolution. We wish to propose a general terminology that might aid the integrated study of evolution and molecular biology. Here we designate as a "nuon" any stretch of nucleic acid sequence that may be identifiable by any critenon. We show how such a general term will facilitate contemplation of the structural and functional contributions of such elements to the genome in its past, current, or future state. We focus in this paper on pseudogenes and dispersed repetitive elements, since their current names reflect the prevalent view that they constitute dispensable genomic noise (trash), rather than a vast repertoire of sequences with the capacity to shape an organism during evolution. This potential to contribute sequences for future use is reflected in the suggested terms "polonuons" or "pologenes." If such a potonuon has been coopted into a variant or novel function, an evolutionary process termed "exaltation," we employ the term "xaptonuon." If a potonuon remains without function (nonaptive nuon), it is a "nonaptation" and we term it "naptonuon." A number of examples for potonuons and xaptonuons are given.
Another of Brosius' articles http://zmbe.uni-muenster.de/expath/articles/Genetica.retro.2003.pdf The abstract
Retroposition is an ancient process dating back to the conversion of RNA to DNA genomes. Nevertheless, it continues to make tremendous structural and functional contributions to extant genomes. This process and the endurance, or even renaissance, of an RNA world in many lineages sheds a new light on the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology. The question of why reverse ranscriptase has survived billions of years without an apparent cellular function is discussed. Retroposition constitutes one of the pervasive conflicts, in this case between host genome on one hand and mobile genetic elements on the other, that fuel the evolutionary process. It is obvious that retroposition has, thus far, contributed numerous useful novelties to genomes.
A recent article http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/11/2061.full The abstract
The evolution of new genes can ensue through either gene duplication and the neofunctionalization of one of the copies or the formation of a de novo gene from hitherto nonfunctional, neutrally evolving intergenic or intronic genomic sequences. Only very rarely are entire genes created de novo. Mostly, nonfunctional sequences are coopted as novel parts of existing genes, such as in the process of exonization whereby introns become exons through changes in splicing. Here, we report a case in which a novel nonprotein coding RNA evolved by intron-sequence recruitment into its structure. cDNAs derived from rat brain small RNAs, revealed a novel small nucleolar RNA (snoRNA) originating from one of the Snord115 copies in the rat Prader–Willi syndrome locus. We suggest that a single-point substitution in the Snord115 region led to the expression of a longer snoRNA variant, designated as L-Snord115. Cell culture and footprinting experiments confirmed that a single nucleotide substitution at Snord115 position 67 destabilized the kink-turn motif within the canonical snoRNA, while distal intronic sequences provided an alternate D-box region. The exapted sequence displays putative base pairing to 28S rRNA and mRNA targets.
For all of Brosius' articles http://zmbe.uni-muenster.de/institutes/iep/Brosius_CV_AllPub.pdf The people at UD have to be aware of people like Brosius. He is not the stereotype of people like Coyne, Moran and Dawkins that are characterized here on UD.jerry
April 30, 2014
April
04
Apr
30
30
2014
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT
Eric, I came across a useful set of videos on genetics. If you or anyone are interested, go to youtube and search for "useful genetics." There is a series of lectures, some short, some about 20 minutes. The author is a colorful person in more ways than one. Check out the hair over time. https://www.youtube.com/user/UsefulGenetics One particularly interesting one is the comparison of genomes. It is lecture 1G. Lecture 1H is about human differences and the so called our of Africa scenario. Another is 2b which breaks down the genome by the various parts and it is obvious that the coding region is a very small part of the genome. By viewing this we would all be on the same page on just what is in the genome. As far as testing for naturalistic changes, any change must have left a trail in the genome in successes as well as failures. By analyzing the failures as well as the successes one can determine if the new sequences arose by natural means. If any changes took place gradually and failed to take place in a sister species, it will be visible in the comparative genomes. Otherwise it will have to have appeared suddenly with no genetic precursors. These sequence take tens of million of years to develop so the sub-population will be very similar to the related species except it will have one or more sequences that are functional but are very similar to the other species but are not functional in that related species. Maybe that can be expressed clearer but it has to be true if any naturalist theory is true. I suspect we will not find this almost homologous sequence in other species which means it arose on its own and that is probability impossible. Genomes are getting very cheap to sequence and it is just a matter of time before the analysis is done.jerry
April 27, 2014
April
04
Apr
27
27
2014
05:54 AM
5
05
54
AM
PDT
You have to think in terms of function and time. It seems an adaptation represents the original function that arose through natural selection, whereas an exaptation is a secondary function that arose due simply to the presence of the original adaptation. The role of natural selection in an exaptation seems to be only in maintaining the function, which was what I was trying to point out to you originally. I think the feathers example works quite well here.AVS
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
04:38 PM
4
04
38
PM
PDT
AVS
My only point, EA, was to correct you on your interpretation of the berkeley website’s definition of exaptation.
That may have been your intent, but it was based on a misunderstanding on your part, not mine. I have not misinterpreted the words on the Berkeley website. The issue related to a nuance that, until now, it is clear you hadn't before considered. Now that you are presumably up to speed on what we are talking about, perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to whether exaptation is a form of adaptation (as could arguably be the case under the Wikipedia definition) or whether it is not an adaptation (as per the Berkeley website)?Eric Anderson
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
03:54 PM
3
03
54
PM
PDT
I was just curious what you'd say, I couldn't remember if you were the one here that played both sides of the fence and believed in "designed evolution" or some such. Just me fishing.AVS
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT
AVS: I say it again. The purpose is not to win on you.gpuccio
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
And the truth is poochy, that there is a mountain of evidence that suggests evolution is the explanation for the diversity of species we see today. We just don't entirely understand the process, as it is very complex and requires knowledge that we don't have yet.AVS
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
Eric: I agree with you: nothing can work against dogma. But we must think of science, and believe that reason and good faith will prevail sooner or later. In the meantime, refining our knowledge and our understanding can only help. As I said in another post, the real purpose is not to win on Moran, AVS and their similars, but to understand truth.gpuccio
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
09:41 AM
9
09
41
AM
PDT
My only point, EA, was to correct you on your interpretation of the berkeley website's definition of exaptation.AVS
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
Thanks, gpuccio. That is a good starting list. Don't get me wrong. There is value in comparative research and an honest researcher will be able to learn many interesting things and, no doubt, a few important things. There will be new lines of argumentation open up for the design proponent as more and more biology research is done. As far as it impacts the design/evolution debate, however, I don't think it will make much of an impact. Let's take your first example: Let's assume that after exhaustive research it is indeed confirmed, and recognized by all, that there is no evidence of selectable intermediates to basic protein domains. What will be the evolutionary response? They will not say, "OK, we were wrong." No. There are two arguments that will be made: 1. There were intermediates, but they were lost over time. This is basically the same situation we have with the fossil record. Only this time with molecular "missing links." or 2. "We don't need no stinkin' intermediates!" In other words, the argument will be that evolution was able -- somehow -- to do what it did without molecular intermediates. So, just as similarities in sequences cannot prove hereditary descent, dissimilarities cannot prove the lack thereof. Already today, without breaking a sweat and without invoking any comparative genomics, we could come up with a hundred examples of things in biology that scream design and that would cause any reasonable person to doubt the efficacy of blind, unguided evolution. However, for the committed evolutionist, certainly for the committed materialist, all these examples are not seen as evidence against evolution. Rather, they are seen just as another confirmation of the wonderful things evolution can produce. Hearts, lungs, wings, eyes, digital coding systems -- isn't it amazing what evolution can produce! Anything from comparative genomics that demonstrates the lack of viable mechanisms for evolutionary processes will just be met with claims that either (i) the mechanism was there at one time, but has been lost over time, or (ii) evolution really didn't need that mechanism after all.Eric Anderson
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
09:24 AM
9
09
24
AM
PDT
Eric: I agree with jerry that comparative genomics can answer many things. Among them: a) Confirm that there is no evidence at all of selectable intermediates to basic protein domains. b) Confirm that there is no evidence of exaptation as a general mechanism to generate functional information. c) Confirm the existing evidence for new functional proteins arising from non translated sequences, without any possible interventions of NS. And, probably, many other things. All these things point to design. I would add that comparative transcriptomics can be even more important.gpuccio
April 26, 2014
April
04
Apr
26
26
2014
01:22 AM
1
01
22
AM
PDT
jerry @59: Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
They do not deny natural selection or gradualism in some senses but only that traditional Darwinian thought cannot explain a lot of evolution. That is why the term exaptation is a big deal to them. They are trying to explain the sudden appearance of novelty. Gradualism in the Darwinian sense won’t do it so exaptation is invoked. This allows them to use currently available elements and rearrange them and get something brand new and to use formerly non-functional parts of the genome and use it to get something new. Both are sudden events, not gradual ones.
Thanks, this is helpful. It confirms part of what I suspected. It essentially functions in an analogous fashion to the "punctuated equilibrium" idea -- large scale changes happening quickly in geological time (without, we might be forgiven for noticing, any sound mechanism to explain how it could in fact happen). It is noteworthy (as it was with punctuated equilibrium) that we have large-scale acknowledgement that "slight, successive" changes + natural selection won't cut it in so many cases. Good to keep in mind.
I personally believe the New Synthesis suffers the same problem the whole one did, namely, a lack or probable resources to accomplish anything of meaning. But the interesting thing is all these ideas are now testable and will be in the next 10 years or so as new genomes get analyzed.
Agreed on the lack of resources to accomplish anything interesting. I'm skeptical, however, that comparative genomics can tell us as much as you seem to think they can. At the risk of belaboring the thread longer, I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts as to how comparative genomics will resolve the issue? Thanks,Eric Anderson
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
11:26 PM
11
11
26
PM
PDT
AVS: I realize you jumped into the middle of the discussion and may not be aware of the nuance that is being discussed. The following series of questions will help pinpoint the issue: 1. Why is exaptation not considered an adaptation under some definitions? Is it better to think of exaptation as a subcategory of adaptation? 2.a. How do we know that our alleged "adaptation" didn't have a prior function? And if the system in question had no prior function, is that an acknowledgement that the entire function -- with all its integrated parts and complexities -- burst onto the scene at once? What about the "slight, successive" development concept at the heart of the natural selection story? 2.b. How do we know that our alleged "exaptation" had a prior different function? (This point we have touched on briefly earlier in the thread.) 3. If a feature was "co-opted" for its current use from a prior use, is that not an example of natural selection in action? If so, then this situation would seem to be picked up by the definition of "adaptation" jerry cited from Wikipedia. Yet, the Berkeley website informs us that exaptation is not an adaptation.* These are some of the nuances I am interested in exploring. This is not a battle for sledgehammers, but for scalpels. Indeed, it need not even be a battle, so there is no need to make it so. ----- *The Wikipedia definition appears superior, on logical grounds, to the Berkeley definition, though the latter implies it is based on Gould's and Vrba's definitions, which I would think we should be hesitant to jettison without good reason.Eric Anderson
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
11:16 PM
11
11
16
PM
PDT
Last comment: should be in last paragraph: I personally believe the New Synthesis suffers the same problem the old one did.jerry
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
01:56 PM
1
01
56
PM
PDT
Eric, We tend to talk about only one type of naturalist view of evolution here. I assume you brought up the term exaptation because it was in the title of the Brosius article. It was in a book titled "Macroevolution" by Vrba and Eldredge who were colleagues of Stephen Gould. The article is extremely technical. They do not deny natural selection or gradualism in some senses but only that traditional Darwinian thought cannot explain a lot of evolution. That is why the term exaptation is a big deal to them. They are trying to explain the sudden appearance of novelty. Gradualism in the Darwinian sense won't do it so exaptation is invoked. This allows them to use currently available elements and rearrange them and get something brand new and to use formerly non-functional parts of the genome and use it to get something new. Both are sudden events, not gradual ones. So I would look to Gould and his colleagues to see what they have/are saying. Allen MacNeill obviously includes their ideas in his thinking and is why he said Neo Darwinian was dead but he did not say naturalism was dead. He subscribes to a New Synthesis. I personally believe the New Synthesis suffers the same problem the whole one did, namely, a lack or probable resources to accomplish anything of meaning. But the interesting thing is all these ideas are now testable and will be in the next 10 years or so as new genomes get analyzed.jerry
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
This phrase of yours EA, makes me think you have a misunderstanding about exaptation; "Alternatively, I’d very much like to know, if not natural selection, what power or process causes a biological feature to take on another role and remain in that new role in an organism?" Natural selection is involved in exaptation as far as I can tell,and the Berkeley site does not say different. I think I know where your making a mistake. Try reading that first sentence of the definition of exaptation again, and this time do not stop after the words "natural selection." Read the last four words also. They are a very important part of the definition. You guys didn't do very well with the whole "reading comprehension" thing in school did you?AVS
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
12:54 PM
12
12
54
PM
PDT
Thanks, jerry.
I think they understand it ok. We tend to twist what it means and what it can do.
Sorry, but when we have people talking about natural selection (see the Berkeley website) as though it "produces" new features, then either (i) they don't know what they are talking about, or (ii) they don't know how to explain it properly.
Yes, but there hundreds of trillions of shots in the dark and some of them hit a functional sequence.
Maybe. That is the real question, isn't it? Can random shot-in-the-dark changes in a nucleotide sequence stumble upon a functional sequence that actually can be utilized in a cell in the real world? And if so, how often can this be expected to occur?
But for where a novel sequence suddenly becomes functional, that is not really adaption. Only in the sense that the novel sequence coded a new protein which somehow now affected survival.
Isn't that how all sequences allegedly arose? They weren't functional at some point; then they were. And somehow they affected survival. It doesn't sound much different from the general description of how adaptations arise: mutations and various other random changes take place, some of them aid survival and stick.
But a lot of non-coding sequences get transcribed and I guess it can then get translated and if it produces a viable protein, the organism may then use it somehow. Seems very iffy.
Yes, quite iffy. Furthermore, if the sequence didn't do anything beforehand then -- by the very definitions we have been seeing on this thread -- we can't be dealing with exaptation, because exaptation (we are told) requires that the trait had some different, prior function. ----- Look, at the end of the day the whole theory boils down to: "Random stuff happens. Some of it works and gets preserved." I'm just tired of people using fancy terms like "co-option" and "exaptation" as though they are providing an explanation for what actually goes on, as though such terms provide some additional useful understanding. Most of the time they don't. Many people see the fancy terms, assume the scientist must know what he is talking about, and back off. I tend to be less impressed, particularly if they can't provide any substance behind the fancy terms. It is so often just smoke and mirrors. Often not even intentionally; in some cases they are just throwing out the best ideas they have. The alleged explanations underlying the theory, amusingly and ironically, often mirror the theory's main alleged mechanism -- a shot in the dark.Eric Anderson
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
Not based on observed reality? I guess you're not familiar with the field of evolutionary biology... Do you not realize that there are thousands of scientists out there in the field right now, studying evoltuion? That for the last hundred years we have slowly proven evolution to be the most likely explanation for the diversity of species we see today? This is all based on studies done that test the reality of nature. I'm not sure how the definition is flawed there.AVS
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
AVS @53:
Thank you EA, although when we presume these things and they end up actually fitting together, evolution starts to make sense, no?
Yes, if we presume the very issues that need to be demonstrated then we can easily fall into the trap of thinking it all fits together nicely. But it is just in our minds, and not necessarily based on observed reality. gpuccio noted a similar slip into circular thinking here: https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/life-arose-from-chemical-imbalances/#comment-497267
I’m not sure what your problem is with exaptation being preserved by natural selection. The original function has been lost but there still is a minor function that benefits the organism, hence the organ remains.
I don't have a problem with natural selection being involved in exaptation. Indeed, it seems it must be. That is why several of the definitions seem to be flawed, including the one at the Berkeley website I linked to.Eric Anderson
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
12:07 PM
12
12
07
PM
PDT
I believe the term "exaptation" is also being used when a non functional coding sequence takes on function. That seems to be how Gould and Brosius used it to describe the origin of some novelties.
they are confused because they don’t understand natural selection well enough to describe it properly
I think they understand it ok. We tend to twist what it means and what it can do. See Allen MacNeill's comment above which I posted. It is pretty clear.
they are admitting exaptation was pure dumb luck, a shot in the dark,
Yes, but there hundreds of trillions of shots in the dark and some of them hit a functional sequence. This is where there is a challenge to Axe and Durston. And why I say that these successful shots in the dark are in genomes of related species and why it is a testable hypothesis. It is just a matter of getting enough genomes sequenced and compared to see how the successful shot in the dark arose. It has to leave a forensic trail. Of course if the forensic evidence is not there, then how did the coding sequence arise. Axe and Durston salt it cannot arise by chance.
t seems the only reasonable alternative is to treat exaptation as a sub-category of adaptation.
IMaybe for some of the examples. But for where a novel sequence suddenly becomes functional, that is not really adaption. Only in the sense that the novel sequence coded a new protein which somehow now affected survival.
Alternatively, I’d very much like to know, if not natural selection, what power or process causes a biological feature to take on another role and remain in that new role in an organism?
Unknown I guess. But a lot of non-coding sequences get transcribed and I guess it can then get translated and if it produces a viable protein, the organism may then use it somehow. Seems very iffy. Also a lot of the changes between species are not in the coding sequences but in the regulatory sequences and in the epigenetic elements. They are only just beginning to touch all of this. A vast new area is ahead. Whether any random process can explain it is unknown.jerry
April 25, 2014
April
04
Apr
25
25
2014
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
Thank you EA, although when we presume these things and they end up actually fitting together, evolution starts to make sense, no? I'm not sure what your problem is with exaptation being preserved by natural selection. The original function has been lost but there still is a minor function that benefits the organism, hence the organ remains.AVS
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
10:48 PM
10
10
48
PM
PDT
AVS @48: Here, let me fix it for you: "We know presume an existing feature was previously used for something else by looking at species who are presumed to have evolved from a common ancestor and kept the original function. And then we presume that the feature in one of the species represents the original function (i.e., we call that "adaptation"), and that the feature in the other species was not original (i.e., we call that "exaptation"). " There, that is more accurate. Even then, it still doesn't explain why someone would assert that exaptation came about and is preserved by something other than natural selection. What other force, pray tell, is there for evolution to turn to?Eric Anderson
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
10:39 PM
10
10
39
PM
PDT
It represents a very good example of evolution. I'm not really sure how the article refutes that.AVS
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
09:58 PM
9
09
58
PM
PDT
Or maybe you were joking. If so, apologies for my broken humor detection.JoeCoder
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
09:34 PM
9
09
34
PM
PDT
AVS, are you sure the appendix is a good example for inferring common descent? I think it's very much the opposite:
the 50 species [with an appendix] are scattered so widely across the tree that the structure must have evolved independently at least 32 times, and perhaps as many as 38 times. ... When just the clear-cut cases are included, the appendix evolved 18 times, he says.
JoeCoder
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
09:33 PM
9
09
33
PM
PDT
We know an existing feature was previously used for something else by looking at species who have evolved from a common ancestor and kept the original function. Take for example the appendix in humans vs. other mammals. That's the beauty of evolution guys, it puts biology into context and connects all forms of life.AVS
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
09:09 PM
9
09
09
PM
PDT
Thanks, Mung. I needed that laugh. :) You're probably right that this is about as good of a definition as we are likely to get. So we know that an existing observable feature was previously used for something else because . . . ? And we know that such a previously-useful structure came to be used for its new function without the involvement of natural selection because . . . ?Eric Anderson
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
08:33 PM
8
08
33
PM
PDT
I like this simple definition:
ex·ap·ta·tion (?g?z?p-t??sh?n) n. Biology The utilization of a structure or feature for a function other than that for which it was developed through natural selection.
Mung
April 24, 2014
April
04
Apr
24
24
2014
08:05 PM
8
08
05
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply