Brian Miller vs. Jeremy England, Round 2

_{News
May 20, 2020

Intelligent Design, Origin Of Life

1}_{Categories
Intelligent Design
Origin Of Life}

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Round 1 was at Inference Review: A Sizzling Exchange On The Origin Of Life

England rightly states that the fluctuation theorems allow for the possibility that some mechanism could drive matter to both lower entropy and higher energy (higher free energy), thus potentially solving the problem of the origin of life, at least in theory. In contrast, I addressed the likelihood that, given the practical constraints, realistic natural processes on the early earth could generate a minimally complex cell. In that context, England indirectly affirmed the main points of my argument and thus reinforced the conclusion that an undirected origin of life might be possible in principle, but it is completely implausible in practice.
Brian Miller, “On the Origin of Life, Here Is My Response to Jeremy England” at Evolution News and Science Today

Origin of life is more fun when it is a genuine discussion rather than a speculation based on a chance finding.

See also: The Science Fictions series at your fingertips – origin of life What we do and don’t know about the origin of life.

Comments

JVL are you saying, that pigeons don't use GPS-level navigation ?martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: tell it GPS-satellites engineers…. I will if I ever need to, which I probably won't. sure, viruses were designed too, no doubts. How surprising that Darwinians have no idea where viruses comes from. I think that viruses are population regulators ( perhaps viruses have other functions too…) So, the Spanish Flu that killed tens of millions of people was designed to limit the population at that time? And yet the last 100 years since that outbreak has seen the world population double or treble. Guess it dodn't work so good eh? A designer who blithely kills millions of people to limit the population is a real jerk. Why not create a virus that reduces fertility? Surely that would be in their ability? I suppose bacteria are designed as well. That's even more ways people are killed every year because . . . we're too fecund?JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL sure, viruses were designed too, no doubts. How surprising that Darwinians have no idea where viruses come from. I think that viruses are population regulators ( perhaps viruses have other functions too...)martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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JVL " Completely counter-intuitive." tell it GPS-satellites engineers....martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Upright BiPed: It is incredible to see the level you will sink to in order to protect your beliefs from science and reason. Let's say I spent hours . . . days . . . maybe weeks trying to wrap my head around how semiotic systems work in theory and in application. If after all that I still disagreed with you would you think I was still protecting my beliefs from science and reason? Because I think others have done that and concluded you are incorrect. Are they all delusional morons who are so wedded to a wrong world view they can't even think anymore? And the journals don't publish the nay-sayers because that would threaten the status quo? I can't buy a conspiracy theory like that so hopefully you don't think that is the case.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: how is a virus an error ? i don’t get it… Do you think they're intentional? did i say that ??? read my post once again…. Okay, it was just one error.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: a tiny Monarch butterfly is using GPS-level navigation when it migrates every year 5000 miles, and it always lands on the same tree. And, it gets even worse… it is not even the same butterfly … it is the 4th generation of the butterfly … it ancestors die during the migration :))))))))))) Yeah, there are pretty amazing. Not sure about the same tree though 'cause what happens when the tree dies? Just pointing at some amazing stuff and saying: I cannot believe this wasn't designed doesn't mean it is designed. In Calculus did you do the Horn of Gabriel exercise? When you take the function 1/x from 1 to infinity and rotate it about the x-axis and then figured out the suface area and the volume? Completely counter-intuitive. You probably remember quite a few other examples like how some monotonicly decreasing series converge while others don't. Crazy stuff. I still struggle with some 20th century physics 'cause it's just hard to wrap my head around it. But I know it works. When I see a flock of birds all gyrating and moving together it looks beautiful and surely guided, surely. But I read (in The Greatest Show on Earth) about how that can all be explained because each individual does not think of the whole, just what is happening next to themselves. There's lots of weird and strange and true things in the universe. Where do you draw the line between designed and undesigned?JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL " And I don’t think humans have been around for 500 million years" did i say that ??? read my post once again....martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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UB: To synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not JVL? JVL: I do not know UB: JVL, to synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not? JVL: I told you I didn’t know the answer to that.
It is incredible to see the level you will sink to in order to protect your beliefs from science and reason.Upright BiPed_{May 22, 2020
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JVL "errors ....All around you. I can list a few more if you like: MD, MS, tetnus, Marberg virus, coeliac disease, diphtheria, " so where is the evolution ? it seems that we only see that the genome (once 100% ok) only degrades.... PS: how is a virus an error ? i don't get it...martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: there are 6 billions of people on Earth and counting…. where is your bad design ? Where are all the errors ??? according to darwinians, there are species with a 500 millions-years-history and still here today (living fossils)… WHAT A DESIGN!!!! 500 millions of years and still here and fully working ???? This is an engineering SCI-FI Over 7 billion actually. I gave you some examples of when design goes bad. Generally those individuals or organisms die prematurely. And I don't think humans have been around for 500 million years whilst other species were around well before that. So, again, where are all the errors, and stop parroting darwinians clowns…. even they now admit, that pseudogenes and junk DNA have a function …. That's not true at all. If you really want to understand the unguided evolutionary thinking read textbooks instead of news stories and bad interviews. Moreover, there are like 10,000,000 species on Earth right now. Lets say, that each species is made of 1000 parts. That means, we have 10,000,000 x 1000 parts = 10,000,000,000 parts working in concert… FLAWLESSLY !!!! What about all the species that are no longer extant? I would also disagree with your characterisation of it all going flawlessly: Ever had cancer? A ruptured disc? A life threatening infection? Even a bad earache? Do you suffer from migraines? Allergies? Fainting spells? Do you think people who suffered from leprosy thought it was all going flawlessly? WHERE ARE ALL THE ERRORS??? All around you. I can list a few more if you like: MD, MS, tetnus, Marberg virus, coeliac disease, diphtheria, less then 20/20 vision, eczema, sickle cell anaemia, DBS . . . OH, do you think those were all designed? Your designer must be a real jerk.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL "I don’t think birds are up to a GPS standard but . . . yeah." it is even worse :))) a tiny Monarch butterfly is using GPS-level navigation when it migrates every year 5000 miles, and it always lands on the same tree. And, it gets worse... it is not even the same butterfly ... it is the 4th generation of the butterfly ... its ancestors die during the migration :))))))))))) And you are right about GPS-satellites, i am glad you have mention the theory of relativity "Each GPS satellite contains multiple atomic clocks that contribute very precise time data to the GPS signals. GPS receivers decode these signals, effectively synchronizing each receiver to the atomic clocks." "contains multiple atomic clocks" "contains multiple atomic clocks" "contains multiple atomic clocks" poor Monarch butterfly...martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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JVL "Do you how many human abortions occur naturally in the first trimester?" there are 6 billions of people on Earth and counting.... what is your complain about ? Where is your bad design ? What is wrong with it ? Where are all the errors ??? According to Darwinians, there are species with a 500 millions-years-history and still here today (living fossils)... WHAT A DESIGN!!!! 500 millions of years and still here and fully working ???? This is an engineering SCI-FI So, again, where are all the errors, and stop parroting Darwinians clowns.... even they now admit, that pseudogenes and junk DNA have a function .... Moreover, there are 10,000,000 species on Earth right now. Lets say, that each species is made of 1000 parts. That means, we have 10,000,000 x 1000 parts = 10,000,000,000 parts working in concert... FLAWLESSLY !!!! WHERE ARE ALL THE ERRORS???martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: again, so you can’t see any evidence of intelligent design … No good evidence let's say. And what about the autonomous self-navigating systems flying above your head ? and using GPS-level navigation …. YOU CAN”T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN ???? I think there's another explanation which doesn't require an undefined and undetected designer who left no traces of living quarters, energy usage, modes of transportation, food supplies or sources, etc. So, in 21st century, you, a mentally healthy adult (i hope you a not a child, to be honest, i am not so sure) really believe that GPS-LEVEL NAVIGATION can self-design without any knowledge ? I don't think birds are up to a GPS standard but . . . yeah. (i hope you know, that humans had to place 33 GPS satellites on orbit to achieve that navigational precision) I am familiar with the technology and the use of relativity to keep it all in sync. Just thought I'd throw that in since there's some participants here who think Einstein was delusional.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL, again, so you can't see any evidence of intelligent design ... And what about the autonomous self-navigating systems flying above your head ? and using GPS-level navigation .... YOU CAN"T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN ???? So, in 21st century, you, a mentally healthy adult (i hope you a not a child, to be honest, i am not so sure) really believe that GPS-LEVEL NAVIGATION can self-design without any knowledge ? (i hope you know, that humans had to place 33 GPS satellites on orbit to achieve that navigational precision)martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: I always hear Darwinian clowns talking about some hit-and-miss / trial-and-error evolutionary process. Part of it is random, but only part. The problem is, none of these Darwinian clowns is willing to show me where are all the errors ??? Must be millions if not billions in history of Earth’s species… WHERE ARE ALL THE ERRORS ??? Do you how many human abortions occur naturally in the first trimester? The estimates run from one-quarter to one-third. Sounds like a lot of unviable foetuses to me. Must be some mistake in their make-up. Have you looked at all the broken genes in the human genome? The don't code for anything any more, they're not control genes. More mistake. Have you ever seen any deformed living creature or even a human with a debilitating (and sometimes fatal) genetic condition? Mistakes are all around you. Unless you think cancer was designed. Or polio. Or measles. Or mumps. Or Ebola. so when will you answer my question: WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATION ???? You haven't convinced me it matters. And you're very rude. So I probably won't. But, like I said, I have two-post graduate degrees so you can assume I"m not a high-school dropout.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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ET: Again, we do NOT know if our criteria with respect to species is valid or not. There are different criteria, true. The immaterial information is inside the cells. Some of it is in the DNA and other molecules. Some is in the cytoplasm. It interacts by guiding processes. What kind of guiding processes? Are they chemical? If the information is immaterial then how can it physically exist in the cell at all? How? We do NOT have to know that in order to determine design exists. We don’t even know how many artifacts were made. But you think life didn't get started on its own so some being was around a few billion years ago. Living quarters? Heck we can’t even determine there was a Blue House at the corner of Lashua and Spring streets. Where are the labs for Stonehenge? Where is the equipment? Where is their documentation? We've found living quarters. We've found tools. They didn't have a system of writing so that cannot be recovered (and would have limited their work to what could be observed and passed on through oral traditions). And it remains that to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable. It is very telling that no one has been able to provide such a demonstration. Maybe, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen; you don't automatically get a designer just because we don't know how every transition occurred without intelligent intervention. Same as the logic you used for Stonehenge: we don't know how but we know they did it. I'm not even saying that: I'm saying NOT knowing how unguided processes did it doesn't mean they didn't. But we do know that intelligent agents require food and energy; and if they were involved in a major biological engineering process they'd need a lot more.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL so when will you answer my question: WHAT IS YOUR EDUCATION ????martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Marfin @40 nice post. I always hear Darwinian clowns talking about some hit-and-miss / trial-and-error evolutionary process. The problem is, none of these Darwinian clowns is willing to show me where are all the errors ??? Must be millions if not billions in history of Earth's species... WHERE ARE ALL THE ERRORS ???martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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Marfin: You seem like a reasonable guy , but when I ask for evidence on why you believe , you say you think some plausible pathways are being proposed , this is not evidence this is opinion , please state the actual evidence. That's right, the work is ongoing. I've already explained why I hold the view I do above. Now as to my education its fairly lowly but I can spot a spoofer when I hear one. So when James Tour explains on paper the incredible difficulty of a step by step process to get from chemicals to a living system do I understand the minute details of what he is talking about no , but I do understand Lee Cronin`s response is just bereft of any substance yes , and I have yet to see anyone else be any different. So if you are honest you have to acknowledge complex multi faceted systems do not arise by chance and no engineering , or software company in existence , would use the proposed OOL or evolutionary method to make any product, but atheists say these processes have made the most complex arrangements of matter ever to exist , to me that is just dishonest. If you're right then their search to find an unguided path will fail. I like to say if you want to we can do a parachute jump I will wear a parachute made and designed by intelligent designers, you can use one made on the principles of copying mistakes and selection, so pick a day and I will see you at the air field. I think some naturally occurring 'parachutes' were developed via a series of inherited variations acted upon by environment pressures. But that does take a long time and so far humans have not evolved such a system so if I was in an airplane I'd take the man-made one.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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Again, we do NOT know if our criteria with respect to species is valid or not. The immaterial information is inside the cells. Some of it is in the DNA and other molecules. Some is in the cytoplasm. It interacts by guiding processes. How? We do NOT have to know that in order to determine design exists. We don't even know how many artifacts were made. Living quarters? Heck we can't even determine there was a Blue House at the corner of Lashua and Spring streets. Where are the labs for Stonehenge? Where is the equipment? Where is their documentation? We don't have what you ask for many artifacts. And yet we are sure they are the product of intentional and intelligent design. And it remains that to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes are capable. It is very telling that no one has been able to provide such a demonstration.ET_{May 22, 2020
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Martin_r: that is why i put you the question about YOUR EDUCATION … do you see now why do i care ? No, I don't see why you can't consider what I have to say without judging my educational background. I have two post-graduate degrees. If you are another uneducated darwinian layman, it is clear that YOU CAN’T SEE ANY EVIDENCE FOR INTELLIGENT DESIGN … YOU NEVER WILL … because you don’t know anything … you listen to people (biologists) WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ABOUT DESIGN, LET ALONE, SUCH A SOPHISTICATED DESIGN WE SEE ACROSS THE NATURE. Well, at least you're not prejudiced. Tell me JVL, how is evolutionary biologist R Dawkins and the other darwinian clowns qualified to speak about good/bad design ??? Biologists never made anything…. They spend years and years and years studying the systems they discuss. Their work is scrutinised by their peers and criticised if it's not sound. And I know (having met some) that they just LOVE to take each other down. In fact, I personally know a PhD biologist who disagrees with Dr Dawkins about some of his views.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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Upright BiPed: JVL, to synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not? I told you I didn't know the answer to that.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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ET: But our criteria is suspect. Meaning we may not be seeing new species arising. Maybe. But I think we have. Immaterial information Where is that information? How is it stored? How does it interact with living organisms? By Design. How? Design has to be implemented. I don’t even know what that means. It means that if intelligent agents have been around in Earth's past (or present) then where are their living quarters? Where are their labs? Where is their equipment? What is their energy source? Where is their documentation?JVL_{May 22, 2020
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JVL- You seem like a reasonable guy , but when I ask for evidence on why you believe , you say you think some plausible pathways are being proposed , this is not evidence this is opinion , please state the actual evidence. Now as to my education its fairly lowly but I can spot a spoofer when I hear one. So when James Tour explains on paper the incredible difficulty of a step by step process to get from chemicals to a living system do I understand the minute details of what he is talking about no , but I do understand Lee Cronin`s response is just bereft of any substance yes , and I have yet to see anyone else be any different. So if you are honest you have to acknowledge complex multi faceted systems do not arise by chance and no engineering , or software company in existence , would use the proposed OOL or evolutionary method to make any product, but atheists say these processes have made the most complex arrangements of matter ever to exist , to me that is just dishonest. I like to say if you want to we can do a parachute jump I will wear a parachute made and designed by intelligent designers, you can use one made on the principles of copying mistakes and selection, so pick a day and I will see you at the air field.Marfin_{May 22, 2020
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JVL, you said "There is no evidence (in my opinion) for the intervention of an intelligent agent.” that is why i put you the question about YOUR EDUCATION ... do you see now why do i care ? If you are another uneducated darwinian layman, it is clear that YOU CAN'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE FOR INTELLIGENT DESIGN ... YOU NEVER WILL ... because you don't know anything ... you listen to people (biologists) WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ABOUT DESIGN, LET ALONE, SUCH A SOPHISTICATED DESIGN WE SEE ACROSS THE NATURE. Tell me JVL, how is evolutionary biologist R Dawkins and the other darwinian clowns qualified to speak about good/bad design ??? Biologists never made anything....martin_r_{May 22, 2020
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. JVL, to synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not?Upright BiPed_{May 22, 2020
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JVL:
The evidence for unguided processes being sufficient to develop life as we observe it after an as yet undetermined beginning.
There isn't any such evidence. There isn't even a methodology to test it.
We see new species arising but from established existing species.
But our criteria is suspect. Meaning we may not be seeing new species arising.
Either way you can look up thousands and thousands of references in any good university level textbook on evolution.
I have. You are bluffing and making stuff up.
What do you think makes an organism what it is?
Immaterial information
How do you think it all occurred?
By Design.
It’s really poor evidence at best.
That's your ignorant opinion, anyway. Compared to what you have ID is light years ahead, scientifically.
. And there is nothing one would expect from living beings engaged in complicated biological constructions.
I don't even know what that means. Your side can't even account for the existence of living beings.ET_{May 22, 2020
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Upright Biped: Oh good grief. This is what abject denial of science and reason looks like. I'm being very honest regarding my beliefs and why I have them. Because of the behaviour of others and my own experience of the lack of evidence of intelligent intervention in the development of life on earth I think you might be wrong. I can't say how but it must be the case that literally thousands and thousands of other scientists, philosophers and logicians disagree with your interpretation of how semiotic systems work. It sounds like your real argument is with them. Tone-deaf dissembling and rationalization to follow. Quit preaching to people about “decency and intellectual honesty”, I am being honest. You think because I don't agree with you something is wrong. I understand you are completely convinced you are correct but, in this regard, you are in scientific minority. JVL. When it comes to protecting your beliefs from scrutiny, you have absolutely none whatsoever. I'm not trying to protect my beliefs from scrutiny. I could guess what you meant to say but I'd better not in case I got it wrong.JVL_{May 22, 2020
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. #25
UB: To synthesize an aaRS from heritable memory requires the heritable memory, does it not, JVL? JVL: I don’t know
Oh good grief. This is what abject denial of science and reason looks like. Tone-deaf dissembling and rationalization to follow. Quit preaching to people about “decency and intellectual honesty”, JVL. When it comes to protecting your beliefs from science and reason, you have absolutely none whatsoever.Upright BiPed_{May 22, 2020
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