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Darwinism: Why it is philosophy, not science

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My most recent post talked about why Fr. George Coyne was asked to retire from the Vatican Observatory, after his vigorous campaign to oppose the Vatican’s efforts to distance itself from Darwinism (or “evolutionism,” as Cardinal Schoenborn likes to call it).

I shouldn’t have to point this out, but hey. Sidelining Fr. Coyne does not mean that the Vatican is weighing in on the interminable US school board wars.

Yes, the Pope used the term “progetto intelligente,” which is a functionally equivalent rendering of “intelligent design” in a homily. But only a naive person would imagine that the Catholic Church, which is thousands of years old, would stake all on current specific ideas of American biochemists, mathematicians, or astronomers.

Why? It need not. Philosopher David Stove has already demolished Darwinism by doing nothing more than unpacking what neo-Darwinists really expect us to believe, to help them preserve their theory.

And if you really believe all that the Darwinists wish,

you had better ask a solicitous friend to answer the door for you whenever you see two frumpy people approaching your house, armed with tracts … .

I expect ID ideas to come thick and fast in the next few decades, and it certainly won’t be the job of the Catholic Church to keep up with, let alone pass judgment on, all of them. The main thing the Church seems to want to get across is that “evolutionism” (Darwinism) fails to account for human life in the present day, which happens to be true.

A given ID hypothesis may turn out to be well or poorly supported. That, in a nutshell, is the science game. But an ancient institution like the Catholic Church can well afford to wait and see what happens, as Darwinism self-destructs.

Of course the universe and life forms show evidence of intelligent design! It is a measure of the sheer stunnedness of a materialist culture that such a proposition would even be controversial. Or that academics should be obsessing about why the American public doesn’t believe in Darwinist materialism. Well, primarily because Americans enjoy the unique and enviable freedom to say that they don’t believe nonsense. I hope the freedom spreads. Lots of places could sure use it right now.

Meanwhile, I was recently involved in a somewhat heated private discussion about whether Darwinism can be held in a purely “scientific” way, devoid of the philosophy that usually animates its most fervent promoters.

Well, maybe. And maybe I can wake up my old cat and learn him to play the fiddle, and then we can all have a dance …

From everything I can see, 150 years later, Darwinism is still the creation story of materialism. That is the real reason for its persistence.

Physics has got on fine in the last century without a Grand Unified Theory, and biology could too. But materialism, unlike biology, needs a creation story in order to function as a religion – hence the value of Darwinism.

In the private debate noted above, I discovered that philosophers who argue for fine distinctions between Darwinism as a theory in science and Darwinism as a philosophy have rarely actually encountered serious Darwinists in their native state. The Thumbsmen are a case in point , and a piece of work, too (scroll down). But the philosophers are unlikely to go out and discover that for themselves.

Essentially, no Darwinist has any motive whatever to clear up the confusion between Darwinism as a theory about how species develop and Darwinism as a philosophy. The confusion is precisely what maintains Darwinism’s social power.

The last thing the Darwinists want is to see Darwinism evaluated on its own merits as a strictly defined theory of the origin of species (with such issues as origin of life and human consciousness off the table because Darwinism is probably inapplicable to them). You may as well expect communists to accept an objective evaluation of the performance of Marxist economics!

To anyone who doubts this, I have three-word suggestion: Google “evolutionary psychology.”

You could sink a canal barge with all the nonsense that has been talked about cave guys and gals, as a speculative explanation for the life around us. Guarantee: You will wake up in the morning, and the sun is shining and all that is still nonsense.

Indeed, Darwinists will stoop a long, long way in their efforts to prevent an objective evaluation. I am reminded of a sentence from journalist Michael Powell’s masterly Washington Post piece on Richard Sternberg:

Sternberg was advised not to attend. ‘I was told that feelings were running so high, they could not guarantee me that they could keep order,’ Sternberg said.

Oh yes? Indeed. And yet I was informed by certain sniffy philosophers that my distrust of a point of view on account of the behaviour of those who hold is a “genetic fallacy.”

I want to say here and now that I do not believe in the genetic fallacy in any systematic way.

Some points of view are only held by persons of poor character.

The eminent Darwinists who can no more be trusted to keep order than the guys in the Court Services van that shuttles between the jailhouse and the courthouse are a possible case in point ….

Here’s another interesting “Darwinism” item: University of Washington psychology professor and Darwinist David P. Barash recently looked forward enthusiastically to the day when “thanks to advances in reproductive technology, there will be hybrids, or some other mixed human-animal genetic composite, in our future.”

Barash objects to drawing a line between humans and other life forms: “It is a line that exists only in the minds of those who proclaim that the human species, unlike all others, possesses a spark of the divine and that we therefore stand outside nature.”

There, you see. It is as plain as daylight. Barash is NOT making a secret of his aim to denigrate humans and there is NO big philosophical conundrum. If you can read a newspaper, you an understand what he is saying.

Barash’s point of view is NOT the inevitable outcome of any reasonable interpretation of science, it is merely the outcome of radical materialism.

I know of no serious proposition to separate that sort of thing from the teaching of Darwinism in tax-supported schools. And that is the main reason why there is an intelligent design controversy in the public at large.

Comments
I've never heard of RNA testing for relatedness. Was there some reason you didn't use amplified DNA? It was thirty years ago. Now I recall, we were working with DNA too. DNA was fixed in the chromatography column and samples of DNA and RNA extract with a radioactive marker were sent through the column. The amount of radioactivity (unfortunately zero in my sample) was an indicator of the amount of RNA retained in the column and this was taken as an indicator of the similarity of the sample to the DNA in the column. Compared to current expertise with DNA sequencing, etc. these were very crude experiments, and were only intended as teaching exercises.Alan Fox
August 29, 2006
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I've never heard of RNA testing for relatedness. Was there some reason you didn't use amplified DNA?DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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Thank you Dave. You have made my example even more outrageous. But I am sure that this cocky assertiveness is standard throughout biology land. The lecture was very good and did not need him to go off on this topic. I am sure Weinberg never thought twice about what he was doing.jerry
August 29, 2006
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If we find ways that Richard Dawkins has “cooked the books” to support his arguments will you still agree that he is honest? If you can show that Dawkins has written material that he knows to be untrue, then of course I would accept that as dishonesty. Generally, people who make untrue statements may be ignorant or misinformed, but not necessarily dishonest. Dishonesty involves ingnoring facts and repeating falsehoods. Re RNA being unstable. I can certainly voutch for that. I recall doing a lab experiment as an undergrad (many years ago)intended to compare samples of rat and rabbit RNA extracted from the liver by column chromatography (as an indicator of relatedness). No RNA turned up in the test samples. I was consoled by my tutor remarking "Don't worry, RNA is very unstable." I too find OOL theories generally unsatisfactory. Robert Shapiro has some thoughts on the subject:
I am not expert in evolutionary theory, but have no reason to quarrel with the conclusions of my scientific colleagues who are better informed. I feel however that the origin of life is a topic that is more fundamental to the debate over intelligent design. The difference between a mixture of simple chemicals and a bacterium is much more profound than the gulf between a bacterium and an elephant. My criticisms of the dominant scientific dogma on the origin of life (by which I mean RNA World and closely related theories) are shared by Nobel Laureate Christian de Duve and a number of other prominent scientists who nonetheless are a minority in the field. For a brief, technical summary of my criticisms, see my paper: A Replicator Was Not Involved in the Origin of Life: IUBMB Life 49, 173-176 (2000). A much more thorough discussion, which also describes a path that I believe will lead to a good scientific solution, will appear in next June's issue of The Quarterly Review of Biology. For those of you who are impatient, and wish a fairly similar point of view, I would suggest that you consult the books and papers of Professor Harold Morowitz.
Alan Fox
August 29, 2006
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Actually the RNA world is more than wishful speculation. It's a complete work of fiction with fatal flaws in the scientific underpinning. It's on a par with the Starship Enterprise's warp engines and dilithium crystals that enable faster than light travel. RNA is an unstable molecule. No one has come up with a way where all the requisite nucleic acids could be formed, concentrated, and somehow stabilized so that polymer chains long enough to do interesting things could form and remain together. In other words the proposed chemistry is just plain impossible outside the rigidly controlled environment of a living cell.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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Allan Fox, If we find ways that Richard Dawkins has "cooked the books" to support his arguments will you still agree that he is honest? By the way the reference to Dawkins was in Campbell's textbook. I don't know if it was in the current edition but it was in a past edition. Dawkins is an avowed atheist who uses Darwin's ideas to proselytize his world view. What would you respond to a textbook that used references to creationist literature to support its arguments? According to your statement you should gladly accept it if the science was ok. Just after you posed the question about honesty and I replied, I witnessed an egregious example of dishonesty by a respected teacher and researcher, Dr. Robert Weinberg at MIT. They have published on video of a couple of their biology courses and he was giving a lecture on biochemistry which was very good when he diverted into talking about the RNA world like it was established fact and this is how the original cell came about. The tone was that this was how it was when the truth is that this hypothesis is no more than wishful speculation.jerry
August 29, 2006
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It would have to be a 747 that self replicated being built by a tornado. Even worse. It would have to be a 747 that self-replicated, self-repaired, and used nothing but sunflower seeds for fuel and raw materials. :lol:DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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DaveScot: "No one has a working idea of how all the essential nucleic and amino acids were formed and concentrated in solution." True. There is no complete theory of abiogenesis. There is strong evidence of the common descent of eukaryotes, some evidence indicating the historical evolution of cellular life, but abiogenesis is still largely a mystery. DaveScot: "It's a complete mystery with no hint of a solution even after many decades of research." But that is not to say nothing is known. The discovery of self-replicating molecules and the spontaneous formation of vesicles is confirmation of the basic concepts, though in and of itself, not sufficient to form a general theory.Zachriel
August 29, 2006
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Chris Hyland, You must live in a vaccum. I suggest you read the thread about the University of Virginia or google Richard Sternberg if you think scientists don't give a damn. We could provide you with many others. If they in fact don't give a damm and sit by while the attacks take place then I suggest you google Kitty Genovese.jerry
August 29, 2006
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Can you defend any biology class or book that references Richard Dawkins in a positive way? I doubt Dawkins gets much of a mention in any US biology class. I certainly defend Richard Dawkins' honesty and sincerity. You may not agree with him but you cannot honestly accuse him of being dishonest or that he does not sincerely believe what he writes.Alan Fox
August 29, 2006
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Actually Carlos, abiogenesis is something that IS testable. Environments on the early earth/solar system can be determined within reasonable ranges, these environments can be reproduced in the proverbial test tube, and the chemistry that emerges evaluated to see if it produces ever more complex organic molecules. This is what the Miller-Urey experiment did. Unfortunately it didn't demonstrate much. It produced an incomplete set of building blocks in concentrations too low to do anything more. The assumptions behind the setup of the chemical environment have since been called into serious question as well. No one has come up with a plausible (read demonstrable) chemistry where abiogenesis could happen. But that's only a problem for real science. For ideological dogma, which is what abiogenesis is, they simply say "Well, we simply haven't figured out how it happened. Just give us more time and we will." This isn't just a moving goalpost, it's an imagined goalpost made of smoke and mirrors.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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No Carlos, they don't have any good ideas. They have a few ideas covering specific bits of the process all of which have fatal problems in the chemistry. No one has a working idea of how all the essential nucleic and amino acids were formed and concentrated in solution. No one has a working idea of how long polymer chains of said acids could hang together long enough to do anything interesting. There is one decent idea that RNA can serve as both information storage molecule and enzyme in protein synthesis but there is no good idea on how to get to a self-replicating protein-producing information-storage molecule could have been constructed due to chemistry constraints - RNA is an unstable molecule which is why DNA is the molecule used for information storage. It's a complete mystery with no hint of a solution even after many decades of research.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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I made a typo and wrote biogenesis instead of abiogenesis. Chris from reading your past posts at pandas thumb and other forums you clearly see ID and ID advocates as: "This may be true, but that does not change the fact that it is a religious movement, all of the main proponents are christians and are religiously motivated in their attacks on evolution" "Irreducible complexity is simply an argument from ignorance" "quote - Alas, ID simply doesn't have anything to do with science, and everything to do with politics. Chris - Agreed, the only avantage of focusing strictly on the science would be to show that stripped to the bare bones any scientific claim of ID is based simply on unreasonable demands of evidence or mischaracterisations of evolution. But this has been done a hundred times before." In fact you are a well known evanglelical evolutionist who finds plenty of time to focus on spreading the word on numeorus forums and blogs that ID is a nonsensical creationist plot without any scientific credibility and indeed without any scientific goal i.e ID just a trojan horse for political and religious exploitative purposes. Why I should spend any time at all relating to you is a wonder in and of itself.mentok
August 29, 2006
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I would say that the real problem among abiogenesis researchers isn't that they don't have any good ideas, but that they have too many good ideas, and no way to determine which one -- if any of them -- shed light on how life actually arose.Carlos
August 29, 2006
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Chris you wrote: "Most scientists would disagree with you. All the mathematical arguments I've read on the topic are suspect at best. My own feeling is that we'll probably never know one way or the other." I mentioned that most scientists would disagree. Most scientists are totaly at odds with everything ID stands for. That doesn't mean facts are no longer facts. Facts are not consensus based, opinions may be consensus based, but facts don't care about opinions. From what I have studied the case for biogenesis is closed. It shouldn't even be up for debate anymore. With what we know about the complexity of even the most simple form of life, to simply live in denial that dirt and water cannot magically form into unbelievably complex replicating cells is indicative of a denial based reality amongst the evolutionist community. Of course evolutionists will argue with that because it completely shatters their entire basal paradigm, denial is a way of life with them, they don't even notice it. So because they are unable to refute the facts they simply pretend they don't exist or are not important or that there is some "suspect arguments at best" which leads to us "never knowing". It's always one excuse or another.mentok
August 29, 2006
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Chris Or it is because they can't see how the concept of a designer can be used in scince. I'm not aware of how a flat universe can be "used" in science but that doesn't seem to stop scientists from trying to determine if it is or isn't flat. Since when does the truth have to be useful to justify seeking it? Knowing if there is design in the universe that isn't ours seems like a pretty important question to me. More important than anything at all in cosmology or astronomy. It bears on who we are, where we came from, and where we're going. The truth of the matter is that many scientists just don't like the idea of design in the universe because it opposes their core claim that everything material can be explained by unintelligent causes. If that's not true science is obliged to correct itself not use the federal courts to maintain exclusivity for chance worship in public education.DaveScot
August 29, 2006
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"So far as I can tell, theistic evolution is committed only to the claim that God somehow guided or directed evolutionary change. And intelligent design would hardly disagree with that! But intelligent design makes a stronger claim: that the indications of God's guidance and direction can be established on the basis of scientific evidence. Theistic evolution, on the other hand, is committed to the much weaker claim that science is not incompatible with creation." That's one of the best summaries of the difference between ID and TE I've read. "In fact the origins of life have been proven to be impossible by random natural events by numerous people, the information is not some hidden secret, it is well known." Most scientists would disagree with you. All the mathematical arguments I've read on the topic are suspect at best. My own feeling is that we'll probably never know one way or the other. "Athiest have more at stake with proving Darwinism correct then do Christians with proving it wrong but that is never discussed." This may be true but most scientists really don't care. "They aren't concerned about proving evolution, they are concerned with allowing “supernatural” concepts (god) legitimization. Without their changing of that view there is no room for compromise, they will not allow compromise on that subject." Currently we have no idea how the supernatural could be used in science. Someone may come up with a way but until then of course you are going to get resistance to the idea. "Maybe one reason many scientists are so against admitting a designer into the universe, is that there is a particular designer they have taken a dislike to." Or it is because they can't see how the concept of a designer can be used in scince. "What I object to is the false messages that are disseminated by its proponents. I guess they have to or they would lose their funding but it gives a dishonest appraisal of the problem." This is a general problem with science I find, although physics is much more guilty of it than biology. The popular press doesn't help either.Chris Hyland
August 29, 2006
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John I don't know how well read you are on evolution or ID so I will try to respond as if you are not well read on these. In fact the origins of life have been proven to be impossible by random natural events by numerous people, the information is not some hidden secret, it is well known. Even the building blocks of life (the right types of amino acids, proteins etc) cannot come together by random chance, what to speak highly sophisticated machines (cells). This should be obvious to any scientist who studies the data. So do they admit this even though it is so obvious, well yeah, a few of them. Fred Hoyle for example, but he proposed life must have been brought to earth possbily by aliens. Others propose life coming on meteors. Of course any type of theory like those are still faced with the same problem i.e. how did disorganized matter form extremely complex replicating bio-machines on any planet? Hoyle compared the chance of that happening to that of a 747 jet being built by a tornado going through a junkyard. In fact the chances are even smaller. It would have to be a 747 that self replicated being built by a tornado. Anyways it doesn't seem to matter for most evolutionsts. Even Hoyle makes a copout by ascribing life on earth to ET's. Most evolutionists don't give any or much thought to this major blow to their ontology, nor do all the problems of evolutionary theory seem to dent their confidence. Why? They do not believe they can be wrong. They know that evolution is true and the only thing they care about is telling us how nature points out how evolution sent this species in one direction and that species in another. They don't question the actual possibility and probability of evolution being able to occur according to the basic rules of the scientific method. They pretend to do that in order to take in gullible uneducated peoeple, but if you watch them closely and you are educated in the same areas as they are you will see them simply provide a bunch of irrelevant or outdated "facts". Now this is not news to ID people, the whole "emperors new clothes" scenario of the "mainsteram scientific" establishment is written about all the time in all the ID books and websites. Does any of it seem to matter to ardent evolutionists? Seemingly not. I presume it is because they cannot see what is obvious to so many because they cannot accept the possibility of ID. They claim ID is unscientific, but in reality their real objection is they cannot accept even the possiblity of ID regardless of the science. We know this because the science is so overwhelmingly on the side of ID but still they cannot comprehend simple provable facts, This is probably because they a complex which blocks their ability to comprehend truths which are so totaly transformative to their ontology. I don't "hope" that darwinism will simply go away. The proofs against darwinism have been done over and over by very qualified people, the problem is the "scientific establishment". They are not using the same thought process as an average person, so an average person can comprehend what ID authors have been saying while the "establishment" have been getting more and more upset. They have hysterical blindness. How do you deal with people like that? I wouldn't waste my time on them so much, they cannot see. Sure stuff should get into peer reviewed journals, but it's not like the information isn't already easily available from numerous scientists which cutterly demolish the "modern" scientific ideal of science as metaphysical naturalism and evolution as the be all and all of life on earth. So ID has already proven itself. You can lead a horse to water...mentok
August 29, 2006
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Re: Post 22 by Montek. Firstly, yes, it may not be true that all IDers support common descent. I know that at least some on this blog have indicated they accepted it. I'm not sure I agree with your stance on 'no compromise'. Remember that given that evolution is so widely accepted and established in the scientific community, then the burden of proof really does fall on the ID community. After all, you are not only trying to change scientists views on what many of them consider mainstream science, but you are also really trying to redefine the very nature of science itself - which if accepted would have massive ramifications way beyond biology. I think taking an entrenched and uncompromising view will not be very fruitful (unless of course ID's real aim is just to sway public opinion to reject evolution, but ultimately that will be changing the course of science by fiat rather than through proper scientific exploration). If you want to change how scientists think you first must find a basis on which you can rationally discuss these matters - like it or not they still do dominate the playing board so before you can change the rules you may find you are going to have to go along with a few of them (e.g., through more peer-reviewed papers). But it sounds like you are just hoping "Darwinism" will simply collapse under its own weight - yet there isn't really any evidence that this will happen. And if you do have 'proofs' "that the earliest life forms could not have come about due to random natural causes" these need to be very clearly articulated and presented. I think this is possible -- we already see that the scientific community is willing to seriously discuss speculative science such as string theory and alternate universes, so there's no reason why ID couldn't also be included. Sometimes I think though, ID is like a moviemaker who wants the Oscar but without paying the dues of actually getting the movie funded and film in the can.John Singleton
August 28, 2006
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It could be that most intelligent design advocates also reject common descent. But nothing in the theory of intelligent design commits them to that rejection. All that an IDA need reject is the claim that common descent ("descent with modification") is "blind" or unguided. Or am I getting the theory wrong? (24) I think the reason theistic evolutionists get attacked from both sides is that their position is ultimately incoherent and incompatible with either materialistic naturalism or the existence of God. Theistic evolution is incompatible with the existence of God?? Huh? How does that work?Carlos
August 28, 2006
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I think the reason theistic evolutionists get attacked from both sides is that their position is ultimately incoherent and incompatible with either materialistic naturalism or the existence of God. I don't know what to think about common descent versus common design. I'm kind of an advaitist (God is the "One without a second" i.e., all things arise out of and are a manifestation of God who is never separated from anything in the universe). But I don't think of God as a local and personal character and basically I am stumped as to how we all got here. Maybe one reason many scientists are so against admitting a designer into the universe, is that there is a particular designer they have taken a dislike to. So maybe it would be useful for them to expand their notions of what the word 'God' might mean.avocationist
August 28, 2006
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John Singleton, ID does have its non religious types. David Berlinski is an impressive figure. Read about his background and then read or listen to what he has to say. He says he has no particular religious beliefs. A link to his page on the Discovery website is https://www.discovery.org/p/berlinski/ Yes, the Discovery Institute is largely Christian but the members range the gamut of Christian belief. It is interesting that many people today suspect an organization that has a variety of Christians on it but will not think twice when atheist rule an organization which they do with many science organizations. How the world has changed. Athiest have more at stake with proving Darwinism correct then do Christians with proving it wrong but that is never discussed.jerry
August 28, 2006
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John I don't think that you are correct in saying that most ID supporters support common descent. Common descent has no provable evidence to support it, it is really nothing more then a speculation based upon homology...which for evolutionist is based on...common descent. So what we have is circular reasoning. I would venture to estimate that most ID people belive in common design not common descent. As to your concern that ID supporters should try to find common ground with evolution in an attempt to get respect, that is really not possible. Evolution theory is supporting countless careers and reputations besides it being a social and political tool for those who wish to attack religious beliefs. The evolutionst camp do not want compromise they want total dominace, any evolutionist who has compromised is attacked by the evolutionist camp because they see ID as nothing more then an attack on them i.e their careers, reputations, social views, political views, religious views. Anyways there is really very little room to compromise on anything. The problem evolutionsts have (most of them) is of allowing the conception of a designer to have scientific credibility. That is their concern. They aren't concerned about proving evolution, they are concerned with allowing "supernatural" concepts (god) legitimization. Without their changing of that view there is no room for compromise, they will not allow compromise on that subject. ID is professing that a designer exists, without that there is no ID. So the two camps cannot reconcile because they have diametrically opposed views on what should ne considered science. Since ID extols that which is vehemently not allowed by the evolutionst oligarchy, ID therefore becomes public enemy #1 to them. Can this change? Sure, but it will take some serious soul searching by the evolutionst camp, otherwise they will not change for a while. The simplest way to disprove their basal paradigm (no desinger allowed because a designer doesn't exist) is to press on the origins of life. That is where we got them and it is the weakest link in their chain. It is easy to prove that the earliest life forms could not have come about due to random natural causes. Once they accept that as truth (which they hate more then anything to confront because it shakes them to their core) then their whole artifical demand that only metaphysical naturalism is allowed as "science" (i.e absolute truth) will be done away with.mentok
August 28, 2006
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(19) I don't think that ID says that everything is knowable by science but that it says that some things defy any natural explanation and point to design. However, it is always possible that a natural explanation for a specific event may be identified. Now we've switched from "material" to "natural" as the Mystery Word, and things go from bad to worse. What does "natural" mean, anyway? Does it mean anything, or any one thing? I fear that the terms "natural," "naturalism," etc. are used in too many different senses, and too many different armies have fought under such banners, for these terms to be of any help to us -- at least a great deal of philosophical work would have to be carried out. That aside -- it strikes me that this is not the most helpful way of presenting the assertions of intelligent design theory. A better way to put it would be to say that, according to intelligent design theory, it is possible to scientifically demonstrate that unguided, purposeless ("blind," if you will) causes are insufficient to generate biological complexity. Notice: the claim is not merely that "blind" causes are insufficient to generate biological complexity -- that much could be affirmed by theistic evolution! -- but that this insufficiency can itself be scientifically demonstrated. That, it seems to me, is where theistic evolution and intelligent design part ways. For theistic evolution can, at least in the Catholic tradition, fall back on the distinction between "truths of reason" (which are scientifically demonstrable) and "truths of faith" (which are not) -- and then simply assert that the Creation is a truth of faith. Most want to portray the ID people as kooks or only religiously motivated. I don't doubt that ID advocates are, for the most part, sane and sincere. Some of you are clearly religiously motivated, but I don't think that all of you are. In any event, most of those that are religiously motivated nevertheless recognize the difference between a motivation and a reason; motivations may inspire one to keep fighting the good fight, but only reasons can persuade.Carlos
August 28, 2006
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Jerry, Thanks again for the comments and I'm enjoying this discourse. Glad to hear you say that there is common ground -- this is actually refreshing and I again I wish that this was promoted more. I truly think that finding some commonality may actually be a better 'wedge' than some previous strategies. Now regarding your comment: "Most of the polarization comes from without and the attacks on the Darwinists by people here including myself are essentially attacks on the unreasonalbeness of those who want total dominion for naturalistic evolution which primarily means neo Darwinism. Most want to portray the ID people as kooks or only religiously motivated." Well, remember that you guys are the new kids on the block. Evolution has been around a long time and for better or worse is considered the established truth, so don't be surprised if the establishment do not welcome you with open arms - particularly if you do paint a picture that all evolution is 'wrong' (even though that isn't the case). That's why I think ID should consider a more conciliatory approach -- particulary if ultimately ID wants to win the support of scientists (rather than the general public which though valuable may do little to actually further promote science). As to ID being religiously motivated -- well unfortunately that is a real perception and I think ID needs to work harder to dispell this. After all the Discovery Institute is considered largely Christian in origin and many of the leading proponents of ID do have strong religious beliefs (Wells, Dembski, Behe etc). What ID needs is a true agnostic scientist on board - that woud go a long way to change this perception.John Singleton
August 28, 2006
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Carlos, I don't think that ID says that everything is knowable by science but that it says that some things defy any natural explanation and point to design. However, it is always possible that a natural explanation for a specific event may be identified. The best example is the origin of life. Right now ID says the probability of that happening by natural means is so remote that it had to have an intelligent input. Not only because the cell is so complex and so are many of its components but how each of the parts works together in an organized manner. There is complexity on complexity in the cell. ID does not say we will eventually find out how it happened or who did it. So it is essentially saying that some areas of scientific inquiry may be dead ends. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try though. I don't object to origin of life research personally and doubt it will ever turn up anything about the event. However, people should not be limited in what they research and often we get side benefits from research even if it did not solve the original problem. What I object to is the false messages that are disseminated by its proponents. I guess they have to or they would lose their funding but it gives a dishonest appraisal of the problem.jerry
August 28, 2006
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In response to (11): you're right to point out that creationism consists of several different, and detachable, claims. My point was that intelligent design, just like neo-Darwinism, is consistent with the denial that every single species arose through a unique act of creation. So if creationism just is the assertion, "every single species arose through a unique act of creation," than one could easily deny that and still support intelligent design, or theistic evolution, or atheistic evolution. I'll confess that the differences between theistic evolution and intelligent design still elude me. So far as I can tell, theistic evolution is committed only to the claim that God somehow guided or directed evolutionary change. And intelligent design would hardly disagree with that! But intelligent design makes a stronger claim: that the indications of God's guidance and direction can be established on the basis of scientific evidence. Theistic evolution, on the other hand, is committed to the much weaker claim that science is not incompatible with creation. In other words, theistic evolution is committed to the general assertion, "there are things that we can know without knowing them scientifically," and the corollary, "one of those things we can know is that God created the world and all within it." This is not presented as a scientific claim, but as a claim that is not inconsistent with scientific knowledge. Interestingly, then, we see here that both intelligent design and atheistic evolution are fully committed to the assertion, "all truth can be known through scientific means," whereas theistic evolutionists are not. That's perhaps why theistic evolutionists like Miller and Collins get attacked from both sides. (17) Sometimes that limited role has important implications for biology and for life and health and we will agree with the findings. But in terms of evolution it is limited to trivial events. I agree. Ever since the major body-plans were established 500 million years ago, the history of life has been trivial, if not downright boring. You've seen one vertebrate, you've seen 'em all.Carlos
August 28, 2006
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John Singleton, There are a lot of different people who visit this site and comment. Some are creationists; some are atheists and obviously a lot have other points of view. The official ID definition is linked to on the side of each thread above. There is no reason according to this definition why neo Darwinism will have no role in biology and evolution but most of here believe it is a minor one. Wherever the evidence supports it, we will support it. The problem is the evidence does not support it in too many evolutionary events. Most of the polarization comes from without and the attacks on the Darwinists by people here including myself are essentially attacks on the unreasonalbeness of those who want total dominion for naturalistic evolution which primarily means neo Darwinism. Most want to portray the ID people as kooks or only religiously motivated. We have yet to meet anyone who can actually defend neo Darwinism for anything beyond its limited role. Sometimes that limited role has important implications for biology and for life and health and we will agree with the findings. But in terms of evolution it is limited to trivial events.jerry
August 28, 2006
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"Yes, the Pope used the term “progetto intelligente,” which is a functionally equivalent rendering of “intelligent design” in a homily ... I expect ID ideas to come thick and fast in the next few decades, and it certainly won't be the job of the Catholic Church to keep up with, let alone pass judgment on, all of them. The main thing the Church seems to want to get across is that “evolutionism” (Darwinism) fails to account for human life in the present day, which happens to be true." I agree only partially. It is true that the Catholic Church will not directly support the scientific ID movement, but this does not means that its criticism of Darwinism will be constrained to the birth of human life nor that its influence will be less important. Let us consider the famous speech of Pope Benedict XVI last November; you can read the ful text in the English translation in https://www.discovery.org/a/3035/ After a citation by St. Basil the Great about world creation, the Pope commented as follows "... I find that when this Father from the fourth century says that some people, “deceived by the atheism they bear within them, imagined that the universe was deprived of any guidance and order, as though it were at the mercy of fate,” his words are surprisingly relevant today. Who are these people today, who, deceived by atheism, hold onto and try to prove that it is scientific to think that everything is deprived of any guidance and order, as though it were at the mercy of fate? The Lord, through sacred Scripture, awakens the reasoning that is asleep within us and tells us: In the beginning was the creative Word – the Word that created everything, that created this intelligent design that is the universe – and also love. Therefore, allow this Word of God to awaken us. Let us pray that it will also enlighten our minds so that we might perceive the message of creation, which is inscribed in our hearts, that the beginning of everything is creative Wisdom, and that this Wisdom is love and goodness: “His mercy endures forever!” This speech is very important because we can observe that: 1. The inference of a Creation of the world is stated as evident and only people "deceived by atheism, hold onto and try to prove that it is scientific to think that everything is deprived of any guidance and order, as though it were at the mercy of fate". 2. The recognition of the Creation is also a rational affair: "The Lord ... awakens the reasoning that is asleep" 3. This awaken reason leads us to realize that "In the beginning was the creative Word – the Word that created everything, that created this intelligent design that is the universe". 4. A very important thing, that cannot be appreciated in the English translation, is that the Pope used in his speech the Italian term "progetto intelligente". Whereas this is the usual and correct translation for the English "intelligent design", it is very meaningful that the term "progetto" IS NOT the typical one which is used in any Church documents and homilies to indicate the past and present action of God in the history of the world. To this aim the Italian word "disegno" (which better denotes the work of an artist who perform his painting or his plan) is nearly always used. Kairoskairos
August 28, 2006
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Alan Fox, To the extent that any biologist willfully distorts the ID position or implies that neo Darwinism can do anything beyond micro-evolution, they are being dishonest. I will point to the textbooks being used in biology classes today and their authors as examples. One of major college biology textbooks openly endorses the ideas of Richard Dawkins. That to me is being dishonest in a big way not only for the biology espoused by Richard Dawkins but for the philosophical implications. Can you defend any biology class or book that references Richard Dawkins in a positive way?jerry
August 28, 2006
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