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Emergence and the Dormitive Principle

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There is a famous passage in Molière’s play The Imaginary Invalid in which he satirizes the tactic of tautology given as explanation.  A group of medieval doctors are giving an oral exam to a doctoral candidate, and they ask him why opium causes people to get sleepy.  The candidate responds:

Mihi à docto Doctore
Domandatur causam & rationem, quare
Opium facit dormire ?
A quoy respondeo,
Quia est in eo
Virtus dormitiua,
Cuius est natura
Sensus assoupire.

Which is translated:

I am asked by the learned doctor the cause and reason why opium causes sleep.  To which I reply, because it has a dormitive property, whose nature is to lull the senses to sleep.

Of course, “dormitive” is derived from the Latin “dormire,” which means to sleep.  Thus, the candidate’s explanation boils down to “opium causes people to get sleepy because it has a property that causes people to get sleepy.”  It is a tautology disguised as an explanation.

Funny, no?  A real scientist would never stoop to such linguistic tricks, right?  Wrong. 

Consider the materialist explanation for consciousness.  We are told that the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain.  Yes, and sleep is induced by the dormitive property of opium. 

UPDATE

Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate.  We will see how their argument is circular in this update. 

Viola Lee

If emergent is not a good term, what is? Use the salt example: “Just as Na and Cl are widely different from each other, the compound NACL or salt is widely different from either.” If salt has properties that are quite unlike those of its constituent parts, how does one describe where the properties of salt come from? What concept or word would be accurate here?

Bob O’H

Barry – is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?

Viola’s and Bob’s argument is circular.  It assumes the very thing to be decided. 

Here is the materialist argument:  Sodium and chloride combine to form salt, which is surprisingly different from either sodium or chloride.  Oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, which is surprisingly different from either oxygen or hydrogen.  And no one objects when we say salt “emerged” from the combination of sodium and chloride or that water “emerged” from the combination of oxygen and hydrogen.  This is merely another way of stating a reductionist account of how a physical thing (salt or water) can be reduced to the combination of its physical constituents.  It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen.  Calling what happened “emergence” is as good term as any.  The mysterious emergence of one physical thing from other physical things in ways that we cannot explain is common.  Therefore, that consciousness “emerged” from the physical properties of the brain in a mysterious way that we cannot explain is unsurprising.  Nothing to see here; move along. 

Viola’s and Bob’s religious commitments have led them into a glaring logical error.1  It should be obvious that the very thing to be decided is whether, in principle, the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Viola and Bob argue that physical things emerge from other physical things all the time; therefore that the mind emerges from the physical properties of the brain is unsurprising. 

Wait a second.  Viola’s and Bob’s argument works only if one assumes that the mental can be accounted for in physicalist reductionist terms.  They have assumed their conclusion and argued in a tight little circle. 

Viola’s and Bob’s logic has gone off the rails, because the issue to be decided is not whether one physical thing can emerge in surprising ways from a combination of other physical things.  No one disputes that we see examples of this, such as salt and water, all around us.  The issue to be decided is whether mental properties – subjective self-awareness, intentionality, qualia, free will, thoughts, etc. – can emerge from physical constituents.  The question to be answered is whether the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Answering that question by pointing out that we see the physical reduced to the physical is no answer at all. 

There is an obvious vast, unbridgeable ontological chasm between mental phenomena and physical phenomena.  Therefore, the burden is on materialists to account for how, in principle, a particular combination of chemicals can, for example, have subjective self-awareness.  Many materialists (Sam Harris comes to mind) understand this is an impossible burden and therefore deny that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion (who is deceived Sam?).  Here again, we see materialists forced by their religious commitments to say crazy, obviously false, things.  That we are subjectively self-aware has for good reason been called the primordial datum.  Everyone knows beyond the slightest doubt that he is subjectively self-aware, and the very act of attempting to refute it is self-referentially incoherent.  Chemicals cannot know, and asserting chemicals know they cannot know is (i.e. that chemicals have intentionality) is absurd. 

In conclusion, Viola and Bob say, essentially, things emerge from other things all the time; therefore the mind emerged from the brain.  This is an obvious non sequitur and their augment fails. 

_____________________

1Materialism is, at bottom, a religious proposition. 

Comments
Seversky, there is no such issue save in the minds of those who are determined to smear what they cannot fairly and cogently address on the merits. The matter is simple, are there observable signs in entities that are reliable markers of design as key cause? Sound ans, yes. Next, are such signs present in cell based life? Sound ans, yes: complex string data structures with alphanumeric algorithmic code and associated molecular nanotech execution machinery for starters. So, cells, antecedent to us and ranging back to origin of life are the product of language-using intelligence. Then, what about the cosmos? Ans, again, fine tuning that sets up a cosmos fitted to such life. So, there is onward reason to infer that the observed cosmos is also designed. Empirical inference on evidence all the way, the jig's up for the anti-religious smear job. KFkairosfocus
May 12, 2021
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seversky:
The issue is whether the ID movement is an agnostic research program intended to find evidence of non-human design or whether it is a religious movement whose purpose is to promote an evangelical Christian version of divine Creation by cloaking it in a veneer of scientific respectability.
As opposed to the forced teaching of the religious pap of materialism. At least ID makes testable claims, in accordance with science.ET
May 10, 2021
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. VL, I see you have responded.
I’ve read the definition of ID here, and other places, so I’m not unfamiliar with what ID claims.
It appears then that you were in contact with a proper definition of ID, but chose not to accept it — it is merely a “claim” as you say — i.e. “ID isn’t a science of design detection, it’s primarily a philosophical position that x, y and z”.
However, you didn’t quote the rest of what I wrote: I think ID is primarily a philosophical position that rejects both materialism and non-theistic perspectives about the creative power of the universe such as mine (as well as, I gather, certain theistic views such as some segments of Christianity.”
I wonder about the apparent need to say this again and again. ID is not primarily a philosophical position. This is an old slur intended to dismiss and separate ID from its empirical foundation. This slur is not repeated over and over again because ID is primarily a philosophy, but because the empirical observations of ID are sound and it is easier to flank than to risk acknowledgement. Adding that it is your own personal philosophy at risk doesn’t change the boat you’re in. But we needn’t belabor your positioning statement against ID any further, you have already indicated in the text that you effectively eliminate distinctions between guided and unguided within your assumptions, so positioning ID as “primarily a philosophy” instead of addressing its empirical observations, is sort of par for the course. In the other hand, you’ve made the positive claim that the distinction between guided and unguided are both “false and empirically non-productive”. These claims are supposedly supported by some form of experiential evidence you have. You’ve been prompted to provide this support, but frankly it is difficult to see what it is in your comments you are expecting provide that support. You’ve reiterated
I consider the existence of our universe, with the entire quantum/fundamental particle/atomic structure out of which all physical things are built, as evidence for a creative power that underlies that existence and structure and is other than physical.
If this is supposed to provide compelling support for the claim that the distinction between guided and unguided is “false and non-productive” then I am at a loss to see how. It appears to be little more than a narrative restatement of the conclusion itself. You needn’t worry, I grasp the fact that you believe the structure of the cosmos is evidence of a creative power. The question is how does what you believe result in the distinction between guided and unguided being “false and unproductive”, if not by merely assuming your conclusion — which is where we began. - - - - - - - - - - This leads me to my question, putting your beliefs in play: “What is it you say to design thinkers when they present the universal evidence of an encoded symbol system and language structure as the proximate cause of biological organization? These observations were predicted in logic and subsequently confirmed by experiment. I then asked: “Are we within reason to observe that these same physical conditions are otherwise found exclusively as a result of intelligent action, and without contradiction to other causes demonstrated to be adequate to the observation, they form a valid inference to intelligent input?” And from my last attempt to get a clear response to this question: “What part of your statement supports the positive claim that the documented inferences to design provided by ID are actually examples of the “creative power flowing from Oneness”, to the exclusion of being valid inferences to intelligent input, empirically observed and documented?” To this, you first replied:
Same issue.
… referring us back to your previous comment where you say you believe that the structure of the cosmos is evidence of a creative force. This is, again, merely a restatement of your conclusions, and certainly doesn’t provide any reasoning to show that the documented inferences to design provided by ID are actually examples of a creative force in the cosmos to the exclusion of being valid inferences to intelligent input. You then say:
We do not have empirically observed and documented intelligent input
Of course not. I never suggested we did. You can locate for yourself the phrase “valid inference” in my comments. It is a valid inference based on reasoning that is well-established and well-accepted in scientific practice, supported by logic, prediction, confirmation via experiment, and universal experience. You go on to say:
we have no evidence of how design was implemented.
No evidence? This is simply not true. We know that the proximate cause of biological organization is specification. In other words, biological objects exist as they do because they are specified among alternatives (i.e. the gene system). Yet anyone who has ever seen a Periodic Table knows that there is no “stands for” relation measured in the physical properties of atomic matter, and forming compounds from those atoms does not suddenly endow matter with this foreign capacity. These are non-controversial observations, and they prompt the fair question “how then can anything be specified?” Persons such as Charles Sanders Peirce resolved that question in the mid-1800’s when he wrote about a process (which he termed “Signification”). He promoted the logic of a necessary “triadic relationship” between a) a sign, b) a referent, and c) a separate interpretation to establish the relationship between a sign and its referent (a relationship that otherwise would not exist, i.e. the Periodic Table). His observations have no counter-examples recorded in science. The long and short of it is this — to freely specify something in our material universe requires two physical objects; one object to serve as a symbol vehicle (sign, signifier) and another object to serve as a constraint to establish what is being specified. This Peircean logic was exemplified (70+ years later, at the dawn of the Information Age) in the work of Alan Turing, who envisioned a programmable symbol-processing machine. Turing’s Machine was based on a tape that could contain a sequence of symbols, a read/write head, and a table of actions the machine would undertake depending on the individual symbol being read. The connection to Peirce’s triadic relationship becomes obvious, i.e. Turing told his machine how to interpret the symbols on the tape. In other words, Turing’s table of actions (transformations) was a critical part of the system because whatever material the symbols might be made of (in any physical instatiation of the machine), they wouldn’t by themselves represent or specify anything at all. In truth, the logical manipulation of symbols and their interpretations was the whole point of the machine. John Von Neumann then used this formal system to predict the fundamental requirements of a description-based self-replicator capable of open-ended evolution. That prediction was then wholly confirmed via experiment (Crick, Watson, Brenner, Hoagland, Zamecnik, Nirenberg, Khorana, etc.) and was later described in the physics literature, fully detailing the necessary material conditions of such a system, along with the kicker that the only other place that such a physical system has been described by science is exclusively in the use of human language and mathematics (two universal correlates of intelligence). So, in fact, we have a great deal of solid science as to how design was implemented. A set rate-independent symbols and a set of non-integrable constraints were organized in order to specify a material system in a dissipative process that would persist over time. Now, if you are asking if the designer held the symbols in his left hand and the constraints in his right, then that is not a reasonable demand; it is a defensive maneuver. I’d like to think that such a demand is not your next move, but it must be said that this is one of the more popular defenses against the design inference provided. ID critics regularly demand a level of evidence from ID that their own explanations cannot even come close to providing. If indeed that genre of question is next, then I would say you have failed to support your claim that the distinction between guided and unguided is “false and non-productive”, and you are seeking to insulate your position from the evidence.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2021
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Seversky: The issue is whether the ID movement is an agnostic research program intended to find evidence of non-human design or whether it is a religious movement whose purpose is to promote an evangelical Christian version of divine Creation by cloaking it in a veneer of scientific respectability. The issue is whether the Blind Watchmaker movement is an agnostic research program intended to follow the evidence wherever it leads or whether it is a anti-creator, anti-design movement whose purpose is to promote atheism, Marxism and perversion, by cloaking it in a veneer of scientific respectability. I mean, really now, anyone can just make up bullsh*t paragraphs like that. I'm no mind reader, but from this statement and similar you've made, it seems like you have some kind of personal axe to grind. Did some pastor or priest molest you as a child, or something? At any rate, I'm not an evangelical Christian. I am not a YEC. I follow the creation narrative of no religion whatsoever. Yet I think many of the ID arguments and positions are superior to the alternative. What about people like me? Moreover, some very qualified non-theistic scientists have come out as quite favorable to ID. Have you read Michael Denton's books? Founders of the ID movement such as Phillip E Johnson were quite open about the religious purpose of their work and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, their honesty does them more credit than those who pretend otherwise. I don't give a rat's ass about Phil Johnson's motives. He's dead. The movement is bigger than him. A fair number of important players in the Blind Watchmakerism movement have made explicit statements about their anti-creator bias. Do their personal motives invalidate Blind Watchmakerism?Karen McMannus
May 9, 2021
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The issue is not whether design exists. We know it does. We do it ourselves. The issue is whether the ID movement is an agnostic research program intended to find evidence of non-human design or whether it is a religious movement whose purpose is to promote an evangelical Christian version of divine Creation by cloaking it in a veneer of scientific respectability. Founders of the ID movement such as Phillip E Johnson were quite open about the religious purpose of their work and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, their honesty does them more credit than those who pretend otherwise.Seversky
May 9, 2021
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ID is about origins only and obviously not every important origin but some. There are perfectly good explanations for the origins of galaxies, stars, element formation, solar systems and planets. However, science has failed to provide any causes for several other important origins. Universe itself Properties of chemical elements and sub particles. Life Multi cellular complex life forms Cell types and timing and placement of cells during gestation. Human consciousness Fine tuning of the Earth ID is open to any naturalistic origin for anything but the above present incredibly difficult challenges for natural processes to achieve.jerry
May 9, 2021
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Viola Lee:
We do not have empirically observed and documented intelligent input: we have no evidence of how design was implemented.
We don't need that in order to determine intelligent design exists. We don't even inquire as to the who and how until AFTER intelligent design is determined to exist. And do tell how we are supposed to figure out the how seeing it is way above our current capabilities?
We have results, and various ways of possibly understanding the metaphysical basis for the creative power that might have caused, but we do not have any evidence of a mechanism by which those were caused.
Nonsense. We use our knowledge of cause and effect relationships- we know what nature can do and we know what telic processes can do.
What exactly happened when aspects of the genetic code came to exist in the physical world, or when a specific type of organism (fish, whales, human beings, whatever) came to exist.
That is what science is for-> to help us make that determination. It is beyond stupid to think that ID has to have all of the answers when the current paradigm has nothing but lies, bluffs and equivocations.ET
May 9, 2021
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Back at 139 UB wrote, in response to my statement that "I think ID is primarily a philosophical position."
Why would you take that position given that, quite clearly, none of the core players in ID takes that position. Is it that you searched the ID literature and couldn’t find an answer as to what ID is, or, is it that you simply didn’t or couldn’t trust what ID proponents themselves say of their own project? If this is nothing more than your own opinion of ID — effectively stripping it of its empirical arguments — then which is it?
I've read the definition of ID here, and other places, so I'm not unfamiliar with what ID claims. However, you didn't quote the rest of what I wrote: I think ID is primarily a philosophical position that rejects both materialism and non-theistic perspectives about the creative power of the universe such as mine (as well as, I gather, certain theistic views such as some segments of Christianity." That is, the idea that some things require "intelligent input" (your words) implies, as I've said above, an occasional intervention, and excludes other metaphysical ways of understanding that posit a continual creative presence. Given that what we have are some results, such as the genetic code and numerous unspecified "creations" of some kind of various kinds of organisms, but no evidence as to how that result was obtained, choosing to see it as a specific intelligent input rather than the result of the type of continuous creative process I have mentioned (which is held by both various non-theistic perspectives and some Christian perspectives) is a philosophical choice. That is, there is evidence that that some things are unlikely to have come about via "undirected processes", but there is not evidence available to us, I don't think, that we can use to distinguish which of several metaphysical world views might account for those things. Also, when I said, "But I wrote, “For instance, I consider the existence of our universe, with the entire quantum/fundamental particle/atomic structure out of which all physical things are built, as evidence for a creative power that underlies that existence and structure and is other than physical.”, You replied
What part of your statement supports the positive claim that the documented inferences to design provided by ID are actually examples of the “creative power flowing from Oneness”, to the exclusion of being valid inferences to intelligent input, empirically observed and documented?
Same issue. We do not have empirically observed and documented intelligent input: we have no evidence of how design was implemented. We have results, and various ways of possibly understanding the metaphysical basis for the creative power that might have caused, but we do not have any evidence of a mechanism by which those results were caused. What exactly happened when aspects of the genetic code came to exist in the physical world, or when a specific type of organism (fish, whales, human beings, whatever) came to exist. There are no statement, backed by evidence, that I know of, about what that "input" looks like when it happens. Last, I wrote, "I don’t think the words “act” and “intent” even apply to the One: those are anthropomorphisms. and you replied, "This line of argument appears to be the assumption of yet another conclusion. Am I wrong about that, or do you have more experiential evidence to support the claim?" This is a metaphysical speculation, beyond experiential evidence, that fits my way of looking at things. In that sense, it is no different than the idea that there is some willful intelligent designer who occasional intervenes in the physical world to do things that the physical world, which presumably it also created, can't do without some additional tweaking. They are both philosophical positions that go beyond the direct empirical evidence of what exists in the physical world, and how those parts interact with each other. And, to be clear, materialism is also a philosophical position, and one that I find wanting for various reasons that I have discussed.Viola Lee
May 9, 2021
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In response to 143 and 144. I think you have this wrong. The starting point for this discussion are two agreed facts, the brain exists and humans have consciousness. One side claims that consciousness emerges from the brain through some unknown process. The other side claims that consciousness is designed through some unknown process. Both require the acceptance of an unknown process. I have no problem accepting that the brain is designed. The question then to be asked is whether the brain was designed to produce consciousness without any other outside “input”, or whether the brain and the outside input (eg, the soul, the mind, whatever) were designed separately with the necessity of the two meeting up to form consciousness. To me, the most parsimonious approach would be to design the brain so that consciousness could arise directly from it.paige
May 9, 2021
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The only people who say "that ID is primarily a philosophical position" are the people who do not understand science.ET
May 9, 2021
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JVL:
I think the unguided evolutionary theory is testable and potentially falsifiable.
No one has been able to say how to test it, though. For example, how can we test the claim that unguided/ blind and mindless processes produced the genetic code or any bacterial flagellum? No one knows.
So, let me get this straight . . . many ID proponents say that unguided evolutionary proponents have had 150 years of time to try and justify their ideas and so now it’s time to call it quits. But you’re saying ID needs generations, i.e. many, many decades of time just to come up to speed? Is that not a double standard?
160 years is 16 decades. ID will have more answers than evolutionism has in 160 years. You have NOTHING but to deny ID.
But you did say that implementation was part of design! So inferring design means inferring implementation yes? Why is that not an important question to answer? What could be more important, from a scientific perspective, than that?
So you are an infant. Tell me how important it is to know the Wright brothers and how they designed their airplane in order to understand airplanes? How it works it more important than how it came to be. How to properly repair and maintain it is more important than how it came to be. And AGAIN, how it came to be is way above our capabilities. Only an ass on an agenda continues to ignore that fact. And here you are.
Where are they? Do they even exist?
The EVIDENCE says at least one existed.
It’s not the same because of what you are inferring: a being (of some kind) did something at some time (both unspecified) that affected the origination AND the development of life on Earth. Your hypothesis encompasses both things. Evolutionary theory does not.
Clueless. Archaeology and forensic science start off with a being or some kind did something at some point in time. Evolutionism says that some unknown processes did something at some unknown point in time. Evolutionism doesn't have any answers to any questions, except for death, genetic diseases and deformities. Evolutionary biologists can't even tell us what makes an organism what it is! That is the most basic question in biology!!!ET
May 9, 2021
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ID is an explanation using reason and evidence. When we see something that has purpose/function humans try to find out how such a thing happened. There are lots of examples of such phenomena The universe itself exists and it’s exist with incredibly precise properties to enable life as we know it. Why such precise properties? Why so vast? So humans use logic and reason to conclude something with immense power designed it that way and not some other way. There had to be intent. So what is this “something?’ We can call it anything we want but It’s power and ability to design has to be immense.and have purpose. We can then speculate on the nature of this “something” to better understand it using reason and evidence. For that ID uses science. Others will use additional sources to try and understand this “something.” There are other instances of incredibly unlikely events that have invited speculation. One is life. ID again uses physical evidence and logic or what is called science to examine it and make conclusions. Life actually uses a coded system very similar to elaborate instruction systems that have only originated with humans. So the conclusion of ID is that life too probably had an origin in something similar to the process that humans use to create complex instruction systems. There are other phenomena that are also extremely unlikely that show similar patterns. These conclusions are not a philosophical system that is any different from how humans have tried to understand the world since the beginning of time. It’s just now it’s based on evidence of the material world not known till recently. ID is actually better science than is practiced by nearly all scientists. ID will come to the same conclusions that most scientists will on 99.99999% of the phenomena that science will. ID just has the flexibility to consider more causes than so called “science” does. It will not hand wave and use useless terminology such as “it evolved” or “it emerged” which are admissions that we do not know.jerry
May 9, 2021
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JVL “Every time human DNA is passed from one generation to the next it accumulates 100–200 new mutations, according to a DNA-sequencing analysis of the Y chromosome.” https://www.nature.com/news/2009/090827/full/news.2009.864.html That’s a lot of small steps right there.
Forget about mutations, they are automated preseted responses to internal/external specific stimuli . They are not new things, just try to mantain it in a survival state.
Experimental Reversion of Ancestral Characters in Drosophila Strains of Drosophila melanogaster kept under laboratory conditions for decades (hundreds of generations) have diverged from the wild strain of origin in several bio-chemical, physiological, and life history characters. When these populations were experimentally returned to the ancestral environmental conditions, they reverted, to various degrees, to most of the lost ancestral characters (e.g., starvation resistance, reproduction time, developmental time, dry body weight, lipid content) within 20 generations (Teotónio and Rose, 2000; Teotónio et al., 2002).
Sandy
May 9, 2021
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F/N: I think we need to hear Paley in his own voice from Ch 2 of his Nat Theol, failure to reckon with the following substantially and fairly is a big part of what has gone wrong over the past 150 years:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch [in a field and stumbled on the stone in Ch 1 just past, where this is 50 years before Darwin in Ch 2 of a work Darwin full well knew about] should after some time discover that, in addition to
[--> here cf encapsulated, gated, metabolising automaton, and note, "stickiness" of molecules raises a major issue of interfering cross reactions thus very carefully controlled organised reactions are at work in life . . . ]
all the properties [= specific, organised, information-rich functionality] which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself [--> i.e. self replication, cf here the code using von Neumann kinematic self replicator that is relevant to first cell based life] -- the thing is conceivable [= this is a gedankenexperiment, a thought exercise to focus relevant principles and issues]; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose [--> it exhibits functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information; where, in mid-late C19, cell based life was typically thought to be a simple jelly-like affair, something molecular biology has long since taken off the table but few have bothered to pay attention to Paley since Darwin] . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art
[--> directly echoes Plato in The Laws Bk X on the ART-ificial (as opposed to the strawman tactic "supernatural") vs the natural in the sense of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity as serious alternative causal explanatory candidates; where also the only actually observed cause of FSCO/I is intelligently configured configuration, i.e. contrivance or design]
. . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use [--> i.e. design]. . . . . We might possibly say, but with great latitude of expression, that a stream of water ground corn ; but no latitude of expression would allow us to say, no stretch cf conjecture could lead us to think, that the stream of water built the mill, though it were too ancient for us to know who the builder was. What the stream of water does in the affair is neither more nor less than this: by the application of an unintelligent impulse to a mechanism previously arranged, arranged independently of it and arranged by intelligence, an effect is produced, namely, the corn is ground. But the effect results from the arrangement. [--> points to intelligently directed configuration as the observed and reasonably inferred source of FSCO/I] The force of the stream cannot be said to be the cause or the author of the effect, still less of the arrangement. Understanding and plan in the formation of the mill were not the less necessary for any share which the water has in grinding the corn; yet is this share the same as that which the watch would have contributed to the production of the new watch . . . . Though it be now no longer probable that the individual watch which our observer had found was made immediately by the hand of an artificer, yet doth not this alteration in anywise affect the inference, that an artificer had been originally employed and concerned in the production. The argument from design remains as it was. Marks of design and contrivance are no more accounted for now than they were before. In the same thing, we may ask for the cause of different properties. We may ask for the cause of the color of a body, of its hardness, of its heat ; and these causes may be all different. We are now asking for the cause of that subserviency to a use, that relation to an end, which we have remarked in the watch before us. No answer is given to this question, by telling us that a preceding watch produced it. There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance, without a contriver; order [--> better, functionally specific organisation], without choice; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end, and executing their office in accomplishing that end, without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind. No one, therefore, can rationally believe that the insensible, inanimate watch, from which the watch before us issued, was the proper cause of the mechanism we so much admire m it — could be truly said to have constructed the instrument, disposed its parts, assigned their office, determined their order, action, and mutual dependency, combined their several motions into one result, and that also a result connected with the utilities of other beings. All these properties, therefore, are as much unaccounted for as they were before. Nor is any thing gained by running the difficulty farther back, that is, by supposing the watch before us to have been produced from another watch, that from a former, and so on indefinitely. Our going back ever so far brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. Contrivance is still unaccounted for. We still want a contriver. A designing mind is neither supplied by this supposition nor dispensed with. If the difficulty were diminished the farther we went back, by going back indefinitely we might exhaust it. And this is the only case to which this sort of reasoning applies. "Where there is a tendency, or, as we increase the number of terms, a continual approach towards a limit, there, by supposing the number of terms to be what is called infinite, we may conceive the limit to be attained; but where there is no such tendency or approach, nothing is effected by lengthening the series . . . , And the question which irresistibly presses upon our thoughts is. Whence this contrivance and design ? The thing required is the intending mind, the adapted hand, the intelligence by which that hand was directed. This question, this demand, is not shaken off by increasing a number or succession of substances destitute of these properties; nor the more, by increasing that number to infinity. If it be said, that upon the supposition of one watch being produced from another in the course of that other's movements, and by means of the mechanism within it, we have a cause for the watch in my hand, namely, the watch from which it proceeded — I deny, that for the design, the contrivance, the suitableness of means to an end, the adaptation of instruments to a use, all of which we discover in the watch, we have any cause whatever. It is in vain, therefore, to assign a series of such causes, or to allege that a series may be carried back to infinity; for I do not admit that we have yet any cause at all for the phenomena, still less any series of causes either finite or infinite. Here is contrivance, but no contriver; proofs of design, but no designer. [Paley, Nat Theol, Ch 2]
Like unto that, Newton from 300 years ago:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For [speculative, empirically ungrounded] Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. [--> this for instance speaks to how Newtonian Dynamics works well for the large, slow moving bodies case, but is now limited by relativity and quantum findings] By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving [= testing, the older sense of "prove" . . . i.e. he anticipates Lakatos on progressive vs degenerative research programmes and the pivotal importance of predictive success of the dynamic models in our theories in establishing empirical reliability, thus trustworthiness and utility] the Explanations. [Newton in Opticks, 1704, Query 31, emphases and notes added]
KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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KM, I generally agree with your note just now. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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Paige: Emergence as an explanation is based on a claim that consciousness is based on process that we do not yet understand. Design as an explanation is also based on a process that we do not yet understand. I don't think they are on equal footing. We know what sodium and chloride (physical elements) and salt (emergent molecule of those physical elements) are in physical terms. They are clearly in the same domain- the physical domain. We know what neurons, synapses and dendrites are in physical terms. But we don't even know (rationally/scientifically) even what consciousness is in physical terms, if indeed it is physical. Is has not been demonstrated to be in the physical domain. As for the design of life, while we may not know how a creator may have designed life, we do know something about design- what the minimum requirements are for a designer. For example, understanding of the available physical elements and how they interact, intent, foresight, an ability to run trials, etc. We understand these properties of intelligence because we do these things ourselves to some extent. It is logically conceivable that someone with those intellectual properties could have assembled life. It has not actually been demonstrated that chance and necessity within the physical domain as we know it could have given rise to the DNA/Ribosome replication system, even in principle, RNA Worlds and Metabolism First ideas (read: pipe dreams) notwithstanding. Of course, our understanding may change about this in the future. But there is no reason at present to be confident that it will.Karen McMannus
May 8, 2021
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In reading over the comments that deal with the OP, I've noticed that there's a high degree of accord on the idea that emergence is tautologous if it's used as an explanation. The disagreement seems to be over whether it is claimed to be so.hnorman42
May 8, 2021
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Paige, you yourself experience conscious self-aware intelligence. To create an objecting comment you intelligently directed some sort of computer to issue a string of characters expressing a message in a language with a meaning. You added to the trillion member base of observed cases of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits[FSCO/I] coming about by intelligently directed configuration. That is, design. You cannot -- I confidently say, cannot -- provide a single example of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity producing such FSCO/I. I dare you to give an actually observed counter-example ______. In short, as Paley pointed out in Ch 2 of his Nat Theol, discussing his real watch maker argument (on self-replicating watches) contrivance has a known source and is a strong sign. We know from experience and observation, the only actually observed cause of FSCO/I, especially coded, alphanumeric information in messages or algorithms. We know on a highly reliable observational basis, and can confidently infer as act of inference to the best explanation from sign to its reliably signified cause, design. That's logic and it is the actual name of this sort of abduction, inference to the best EXPLANATION. That is, we have puzzling facts f1, f2, fn = [F]. Candidate explanation E0 is, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity (a fail). E1 is intelligently directed configuration, backed by trillions of cases and search challenge analysis. We can explain, on sign: E1 => F. In case you want to put up another unmet intellectual IOU, there is no E2, some other unknown cause, we work with what is on the table as a serious candidate. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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JVL: --- "When you look at unguided evolution and assume that a bunch of small steps cannot possibly add up to something big on what basis do you make that assumption?" In terms of science, there is no evidence to support the hypothesis of unguided evolution. We both know that. So I don't know why you persist. However, you are asking a theoretical question, so I will try to answer on your terms: Randomness can't get you there. It doesn't have the causal power to make the journey through all the taxonomic levels. Small steps that are not guided do not know where they are going and will never find a target that they aren't even aiming at.StephenB
May 8, 2021
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If it's not too late, UB, you might fix the block quotes in 139. I look forward to responding in the morning.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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. VL at 134,
As I said in 43 and quoted in 118, ” I think ID is primarily a philosophical position
Yes I noted that, but didn’t respond to it. Why would you take that position given that, quite clearly, none of the core players in ID takes that position. Is it that you searched the ID literature and couldn’t find an answer as to what ID is, or, is it that you simply didn’t or couldn’t trust what ID proponents themselves say of their own project? If this is nothing more than your own opinion of ID — effectively stripping it of its empirical arguments — then which is it?
But I wrote, “For instance, I consider the existence of our universe, with the entire quantum/fundamental particle/atomic structure out of which all physical things are built, as evidence for a creative power that underlies that existence and structure and is other than physical.” That’s quite a bit of evidence, it seems to me.
What part of your statement supports the positive claim that the documented inferences to design provided by ID are actually examples of the “creative power flowing from Oneness”, to the exclusion of being valid inferences to intelligent input, empirically observed and documented?
I don’t see the creative force that pervades the universe as “merely”.
Okay. Frankly, this appears to be dodging the question. Remove the word “merely” and replace it with whatever word you wish, or nothing at all. So, what is it you say to design thinkers when they present the universal evidence of an encoded symbol system and language structure as the proximate cause of biological organization? These observations were predicted in logic and subsequently confirmed by experiment. Are we to take these facts and say that they are [an explicit] example of the creative force that pervades nature, or, are we within reason to observe that these same physical conditions are otherwise found exclusively as a result of intelligent action, and without contradiction to other causes demonstrated to be adequate to the observation, they form a valid inference to intelligent input? What is your answer?
I don’t think the words “act” and “intent” even apply to the One: those are anthropomorphisms
This line of argument appears to be the assumption of yet another conclusion. Am I wrong about that, or do you have more experiential evidence to support the claim?Upright BiPed
May 8, 2021
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PS: As it seems images were messed up in older OPs when WP went over to the block style approach -- a source of many problems -- I further updated the key L&FP25 to include an excerpt on the design inference from Paley's Ch 2, on the self-replicating watch. This is given tight relevance i/l/o the odd fact that my long since favourite simple case of FSCO/I, the famous 6500 fishing reel, is a product of a shift in focus by taxicab meter company, ABU of Sweden. That is, the 6500 fishing reel is a simplification and extension of watch making (which may help explain its breakthrough nature in the fishing tackle industry).kairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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BA
Going back to the subject of the OP (consciousness), the design explanation is obviously better because it might possibly be a true explanation (whether it is or not is another question) of how consciousness came into being. Emergence, on the other hand, is obviously inferior because it is not an explanation at all. It is a confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation.
Actually, with regard to consciousness, I don’t think either is a better explanation. They both suffer from the same weakness. Emergence as an explanation is based on a claim that consciousness is based on process that we do not yet understand. Design as an explanation is also based on a process that we do not yet understand.paige
May 8, 2021
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JVL, here is a discussion I just updated with illustrative maps on search challenge with islands of function. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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JVL, you have been here long enough to know the threshold set by search challenge on sol system scale [10^57 atoms] or observed -- the only actually observed -- cosmos scale with 10^80 atoms and about 10^17s, where chemical reactions might go up to 10^-12 or 10^-14 s, we are dealing with organic reactions. On that gamut, 500 to 1,000 bits of configuration space [3.27*106150 to 1.07*10^301 possibilities] becomes too large to search more than a negligibly small fraction, where the tight mutual adaptation of parts to create configuration-based function leads to a pattern of deeply isolated islands of function in large configuration spaces. For example, protein fold domains exist by the thousand and are deeply isolated in AA sequence space; islands of function are real. This is search challenge. Where, bits is WLOG as things like autocad show that complex designs can be reduced to binary based description languages [think, animal, vegetable or mineral writ large]. Try to imagine 10^57 atoms, each with a string of 500 coins flipped every 10^-14 s, and observed in a context of functional test; 10^17s would not get to 72+ ascii characters of meaningful, functional text. Just DNA requires 100k to 1,000 k bits of functional text, much of that algorithmic. Search challenge means for OOL, a challenge to find first life in a Darwin pond or the like, and there are similar challenges to find onward body plans. The implicit notion of a vast continent of incrementally connected functional possibilities leading to a grand interconnected, stepwise progressive tree of life is deeply questionable, starting at the root, OOL. KF PS: There is a hugely meaningful distinction between intelligently directed configuration -- aka design -- and blind chance and/or mechanical necessity playing out in dynamic-stochastic processes. This has been understood very well from the days when Plato contrasted natural and ART-ificial causes in The Laws bk X c 2360 BC. It is reflected in Monod's Chance and Necessity.kairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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Yes, my point about guided/unguided being a non-productive dichotomy applies to certain metaphysical views, including mine and other philosophical and religious views. I also mentioned in 126 that there are some metaphysical views for which the guided/unguided dichotomy is meaningful, and ID appears to be one of them. As I said in 43 and quoted in 118, " I think ID is primarily a philosophical position that rejects both materialism and non-theistic perspectives about the creative power of the universe such as mine (as well as, I gather, certain theistic views such as some segments of Christianity.) … ID appears to be interested in defending a particular metaphysical interpretation of what has happened in the world," You write, "You have now expanded to say that your premises are supported by experiential evidence that would apparently support your positive claims; but this was evidence which you did not offer." But I wrote, "For instance, I consider the existence of our universe, with the entire quantum/fundamental particle/atomic structure out of which all physical things are built, as evidence for a creative power that underlies that existence and structure and is other than physical." That's quite a bit of evidence, it seems to me. (FWIW, consciousness is another piece of evidence, to me, that a nonmaterial, creative power is present in our universe.) You write, "What is it you say to design thinkers when they present the universal evidence of an encoded symbol system and language structure as the proximate cause of biological organization? These observations were predicted in logic and subsequently confirmed by experiment. Are we to take these facts and say that they are merely an example of the creative force that pervades nature, or, are we within reason to observe that these same physical conditions are otherwise found exclusively as a result of intelligent action, and without contradiction to other causes demonstrated to be adequate to the observation, they form a valid inference to intelligent input?" I don't see the creative force that pervades the universe as "merely". The metaphysical difference we are exploring here is how does the creativity (or intelligence, in your view) manifest in the world. As I've said, ID seems to see intelligent action as being an occasional event that takes place in a world mostly full of unintelligent action: hence the guided/unguided dichotomy. I see the creative force at play always (possibly a telling metaphor), capable of effecting the world in ways different from the cause-and-effect relationships that we can experience and study in the physical world. Over on the Hitchhiker thread, I wrote this, as a speculation about how the creative power might manifest in our universe:
Quantum theory... hints at causal connections that can exists “horizontally”, so to speak, spread out over time and space at a moment, rather than “vertically”, from moment-to-moment, as pre-QM physics supposed. Carl Jung, who was quite interested in Eastern thought, coined the word syncronicity: Jung defined synchronicity as
an “acausal connecting (togetherness) principle,” “meaningful coincidence”, “acausal parallelism” or “meaningful coincidence of two or more events where something other than the probability of chance is involved.
That is, the creative power of the world may reside “below the quantum level”, so to speak, where the nature of the One “bubbles up”, so to speak, into the world of our experience through quantum syncronicity."
So the One from which creativity arises can do so without specifically intended action. If you will, the "intelligence" of the One is of a different sort than ours, and precedes ours. Furthermore, I don't think the words "act" and "intent" even apply to the One: those are anthropomorphisms. The universe started long before us, and we are a creature of the universe (and let me remind here that I mean not just the physical universe but also whatever non-material aspects underlie it), so the conscious sense of intelligent action that we experience is a local event (local to ourselves as a living organism), but shouldn't be taken as the model for how the universe of whole is. I wrote much more than I intended, most of which is speculative metaphysics, but not any more so, I think, than more traditional Western metaphysics. 'Nuf for now.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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JVL
Perhaps it would be good to explore what ID proponents mean by it being a ‘better’ explanation of the data?
Going back to the subject of the OP (consciousness), the design explanation is obviously better because it might possibly be a true explanation (whether it is or not is another question) of how consciousness came into being. Emergence, on the other hand, is obviously inferior because it is not an explanation at all. It is a confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation.Barry Arrington
May 8, 2021
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. VL at 126 I apologize for not being more clear. You characterized the distinction between guided and unguided as being “false” and “empirically non-productive”, to which I appended “if you assume your conclusions without evidence”. To this you concurred that you were indeed “aware that you were taking an assumption as the premise”. To my mind, the claim of "false and non-productive" are positive statements that would have a direct impact on the ID project. These then would be supported by evidence, but as you say, they are in your premises instead. You have now expanded to say that your premises are supported by experiential evidence that would apparently support your positive claims; but this was evidence which you did not offer. It appears to me that the claims of "false and non-productive" is only in play if they are assumed as a premise, otherwise, the critical observations made by design proponents are still what they are. What is it you say to design thinkers when they present the universal evidence of an encoded symbol system and language structure as the proximate cause of biological organization? These observations were predicted in logic and subsequently confirmed by experiment. Are we to take these facts and say that they are merely an example of the creative force that pervades nature, or, are we within reason to observe that these same physical conditions are otherwise found exclusively as a result of intelligent action, and without contradiction to other causes demonstrated to be adequate to the observation, they form a valid inference to intelligent input?Upright BiPed
May 8, 2021
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StephenB: You bypassed my main point in an attempt to neutralize it. I said it was superior because it provided *sound* direction.” In other words, it puts us on a road that leads to truth and counters unguided evolution, which imposes unsound direction and leads us into error. An explanation that is likely true is better than explanation that is likely false. Perhaps you'd like to define 'sound' direction then. Or, in other words, what is truth? How can you tell what it is before you get there? [JVL wrote four irrelevant paragraphs and ignored the challenge.] I'd like to know why you think there is a barrier to an accumulation of small incremental steps. Where does the boundary take place? Putting it another way: what is the boundary between small changes and large changes in living creatures? Can you define it scientifically?JVL
May 8, 2021
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StephenB: The design hypothesis is a better explanation not only because it is more rigorous and likely to be correct, but also because it provides us with sound direction. JVL: ---"You might say the same for choosing a military career over one in advertising; the military career is more rigorous and has a defined direction and purpose." You bypassed my main point in an attempt to neutralize it. I said it was superior because it provided *sound* direction." In other words, it puts us on a road that leads to truth and counters unguided evolution, which imposes unsound direction and leads us into error. An explanation that is likely true is better than explanation that is likely false. SB: I can’t tell you how many times I have asked the proponents of unguided evolution to provide the evidence and no one has ever done it. What they did was to show the power of nature to create small changes and then claim that it was also responsible for the large changes (from one type of living organism into another). If you can do it, you will be the first. Meanwhile, I don’t hesitate to make this claim and issue this challenge: There is not a shred of evidence to indicate that unguided evolution has the causal power to drive the entire macro-evolutionary process from beginning to end and through every taxonomic level. [JVL wrote four irrelevant paragraphs and ignored the challenge.]StephenB
May 8, 2021
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