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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
Silver Asiatic: Under materialism, no lakes, trees, rocks, organisms or any ‘thing’ at all has any existence in themselves. These ‘things’ are categorizations or organizations of matter. But ontologically, under materialism, they’re illusions. They are organizations of matter. That they can be categorized doesn't mean they cease to be organizations of matter. Silver Asiatic: But ontologically, under materialism, they’re illusions. No. That's solipsism, not materialism. Under most forms of materialism, objects exist, and are experienced through senses.Zachriel
April 5, 2015
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Arrangements of matter are perfectly compatible with materialism.
The sad part is materialism can't even explain the existence of matter.Joe
April 5, 2015
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Box
Materialism does not offer an ontological differentiation between lakes, rocks and organisms – there is nothing over and above particles in motion. Neither rocks nor organisms have existence and causal powers in and of itself.
Very clear and key point. Under materialism, no lakes, trees, rocks, organisms or any 'thing' at all has any existence in themselves. These 'things' are categorizations or organizations of matter. But ontologically, under materialism, they're illusions. These illusions of 'things' as distinct entities, are generated by the physical brain - which is also not a distinct thing, but is merely particles. So, the physical brain, supposedly, generates illusions about 'reality' - organizing particles into things and beings which do not actually exist. But illusions and understandings of reality are impossible under materialism since they require the existence of the immaterial. Materialism can only generate what exists - there is only the physical, nothing else. With that, there can be no 'reality' since that term only makes sense in contrast to illusion. Particles cannot generate illusions. Anything they generate must be real. If the physical brain is making distinctions between physical reality and anything other than that - then even under materialism, an immaterial world (non-physical reality) must exist. The categorization and organization of particles into objects or beings is the generation of things that have no existence. Thus, they are immaterial ideas.Silver Asiatic
April 5, 2015
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what then is the point of accosting random commenters in multiple threads about your “semiotic argument”.
Ah yes, thanks for reminding me, AS. When you say things like this (above)...
So when you keep popping, apparently randomly into threads and posting a comment containing the word “semiosis”
... I need to remind you that only you and Phoenix used the word "semiosis" in a comment on this thread. You poor thing, you must be really rattled on the inside, or else you wouldn't keep making mistake after mistake like this in front of people you despise. May I offer a friendly suggestion? You've made it abundantly clear that you are emotionally motivated to say something derogatory about my project any chance you get. But frankly, you've let it get the best of you. You should try to control your seething disdain for others who don't agree with you. I realize that you often make it a point to mention how you have no problem in allowing others to believe differently than yourself, but those words continually ring hollow when they don't match up to your actions. And this whole tactic of yours where you hit up the idea that I'm attacking unwary commenters with my thoughts, well, that's really is a looser. You should consider dropping it, given the fact that at at this site, topics such as information, causation, and origins will often be at the very center of the discussion, and after all, an open forum is typically a place where people talk about their thoughts. Perhaps you should try, at least in my case, try applying yourself and actually addressing exactly what I mention in my comments -- instead of haplessly giving in to your desire to attack me at every turn. Anyway -- this is just some advice to think over. If you choose to continue stumbling and fumbling around, I'll keep on correcting you, or ignore you.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2015
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Upright BiPed: If the dynamic properties of matter do not explain the origin of representationalism, then what does? The concept in materialism is that everything supervenes on the physical. For instance, emergentism suggests that physical reality is composed of layers of increasing complexity, and while everything supervenes on the physical, it doesn't reduce to simple physical explanations. The conversation with Box concerned whether objects are coherent within materialism. They obviously are. In any case, there's no apparent barrier to prevent the origin of what you term representationalism (which seems a usage distinct from that in cognitivism). Complex associations can evolve from simpler associations, just like complex structures can evolve from simple structures. Zachriel: Categorizations and functions are theories about the object, not properties [of the object]. Box: Exactly my simple point! Those are relational considerations, not the primary properties of the object. The cite refuted your claim. Box: Which is nothing over and above particles in motion. Of course it is. A rock is a specific arrangement of particles. Box: Why are materialists – like Piotr and Zachriel – Not a materialist. We've cited two resources on philosophy, both of which indicate that materialism recognizes "things". Box: arguing that under materialism there is more than particles in motion, that “things” and “objects” exist on their own? Because most materialists accept that things and objects exist as coherent entities. Indeed, it's something they're generally known for! fifthmonarchyman: If you think that “whole” physical entities genuinely exist it is incumbent on you to explain how mere particles in motion can give rise to whole things given a materialistic framework. Gravity, for one. The strong and electroweak forces for another. CJYman: Zachriel, again referencing your snowstorm example, improbable things happen everyday but that is only because of relevant compensation. That's right. A decrease in entropy requires the export of entropy to the environment. Using fifthmonarchyman's example, the ink crystallizes while the solvent evaporates. CJYman: Probabilities require ‘givens’ to be calculated. Some things may appear to be very improbable, but given specific circumstances, they can become almost guaranteed within a certain timeframe. Evolution is almost guaranteed, given the existence of life. CJYman: Furthermore, this discussion is less about absolute entropy or probability measurement than a direction of entropy (multiplicity from low to high probability) and what it takes to locally reverse that direction. Sure. Organisms import energy and export entropy. CJYman: Oh, and your response to my question seems to indicate that you think snowstorms are formed at seeming insurmountable odds. Snowstorms are improbable based on a chance arrangement of the multiplicity of thermodynamic microstates; consequently, it requires the expenditure work to make a snowstorm. CJYman: P1. Configuration multiplicity provides the basis for statistical thermodynamics. Multiplicity of thermodynamic microstates that is. CJYman: P3. If configuration entropy is apparently violated, then statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated. If configuration entropy of thermodynamic microstates is apparently violated, then statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated. CJYman: C1. Therefore, a violation of configuration entropy would be a violation of the foundation of 2LOT. C2. If the ‘change in J/K’ measurements of 2LOT are to remain correct, a re-write of the connection between statistical thermodynamics and 2LOT would be required. As no such violation of the configuration entropy of thermodynamic microstates has been observed, no rewrite is necessary. fifthmonarchyman: assorted lord Kelvin quotes, “The assumption of atoms can explain no property of body which has not previously been attributed to the atoms themselves.” Well, funny story. It turns out that Kelvin's atoms are not indivisible. Box: If an organism has no existence in and of itself – no causal powers in and of itself – why then don’t the particles, which constitute the organism, act in accordance to the 2nd law They do, including humans no matter how ingenious their contraptions.Zachriel
April 5, 2015
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F/N: Pardon a minor point. Last I checked, J/K is not physically dimensionless. Work gives us J --> N.m or kg.m^2.s^-2, and K is a base SI unit, so J/K is kg.m^2.s^-2.K^-1. In stat thermo-d work, Boltzmann's constant moves from non energy values to energy by effectively giving a yardstick for molecular lumps of energy connected to adding heat etc. Of course, to go back to mathematical operations etc we effectively use ratio tricks to take such out again, e.g. why tables or graph axes sometimes bear the tag: /s, for time units etc. Where, k_b = R/N_A, i.e. 1.3806488(13)×10^ - 23 J/K. In the Boltzmann distribution or the like we often see A*X^-e/kT or the like [A a multiplier, X a base of exponentiation, often e], which ratio of micro-level energy in a relevant degree of freedom to kT will be dimensionless, as exponentiation requires. Hey, something caught my eye, on looking for a good value for k_b. Mebbe, this isn't so minor after all. The Wiki article on k_b remarks:
One could choose instead a rescaled dimensionless entropy in microscopic terms such that S' = ln W; Delta_S' = [INTEGRAL] {dQ/ (k_b*T)} This is a rather more natural form; and this rescaled entropy exactly corresponds to Shannon's subsequent information entropy. The characteristic energy k_B*T is thus the heat required to increase the rescaled entropy by one nat.
Food for thought, as the informational view continues to more and more break through. I give my 2011 clip on that view from Wiki -- testifying against interest -- in its informational entropy article:
At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not close. Physicists and chemists are apt to be more interested in changes in entropy as a system spontaneously evolves away from its initial conditions, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, rather than an unchanging probability distribution. And, as the numerical smallness of Boltzmann's constant kB indicates, the changes in S / kB for even minute amounts of substances in chemical and physical processes represent amounts of entropy which are so large as to be right off the scale compared to anything seen in data compression or signal processing. But, at a multidisciplinary level, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. In fact, in the view of Jaynes (1957), thermodynamics should be seen as an application of Shannon's information theory: the thermodynamic entropy is interpreted as being an estimate of the amount of further Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, that remains uncommunicated by a description solely in terms of the macroscopic variables of classical thermodynamics. For example, adding heat to a system increases its thermodynamic entropy because it increases the number of possible microscopic states that it could be in, thus making any complete state description longer. (See article: maximum entropy thermodynamics.[Also,another article remarks: >>in the words of G. N. Lewis writing about chemical entropy in 1930, "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more" . . . in the discrete case using base two logarithms, the reduced Gibbs entropy is equal to the minimum number of yes/no questions that need to be answered in order to fully specify the microstate, given that we know the macrostate.>>]) Maxwell's demon can (hypothetically) reduce the thermodynamic entropy of a system by using information about the states of individual molecules; but, as Landauer (from 1961) and co-workers have shown, to function the demon himself must increase thermodynamic entropy in the process, by at least the amount of Shannon information he proposes to first acquire and store; and so the total entropy does not decrease (which resolves the paradox).
KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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Phoenix, This is a summary "definition" of relevant evolutionary materialist scientism, by Lewontin:
the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [Billions and billions of demons, NYRB, Jan 1997. In case yu may have been led to imagine this is "quote-mined" and/or idiosyncratic; kindly look at the fuller annotated citation here on, and the following four other clips.]
And, recently, Rosenberg of Duke U, in the lead to ch 9 of his 2011 The Atheist's Guide to Reality, inadvertently exposes the utter self-referential incoherence involved:
FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates. The physical facts fix all the facts. The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live. Not that there was ever much doubt about mortality anyway.
KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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AR, no. Photosynthesis etc couple energy, mass and information flows via direct or indirect and highly relevant energy converters and constructors. What is questionable -- and has been explicit on record since at least Thaxton et al in TMLO -- is the claimed ab initio spontaneous formation of such FSCO/I rich entities by way of blind needle in haystack search on lucky noise. The empirical and analytical grounding for such an astonishing claim, absent a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism that implies such "must" have happened, is grossly inadequate. And irrelevant energy flows not connected to empirically and analytically reasonable converters or constructors, cannot credibly "compensate." Yes, 2LOT implies that such converters and constructors must export waste degraded energy, typically as heat etc, but that has nothing to do with why such relevant converters are effectively necessary on empirical and analytical grounds for origin of FSCO/I, and for closely linked Wicken wiring diagram constructive work. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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phoenix, 341: please, every comment I have ever made at UD links directly to an answer to your "cornering" attempt; just click on my handle. You carry out a turnabout fallacy also: in fact it is those who wish to argue that irrelevant energy and/or mass flows "compensate" adequately for the claimed blind needle in haystack search formation of the functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (FSCO/I) in original and onward life forms and their body plans, who need to show empirically and analytically that their arguments and claims are compatible with 2LOT and do not constitute an appeal to effectively something -- FSCO/I -- from nothing, molecular noise and linked phenomena. Failing such, the claims out there run perilously close to being a claim to a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind. KF PS: For reference, Dr Selensky is a physicist.kairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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Besides providing direct empirical falsification of neo-Darwinian claims as to the generation of information, the implication of finding 'non-local', beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’ quantum information in molecular biology on a massive scale is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068
Verse and Music:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Moriah Peters - You Carry Me - music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2H-zQjgurQ
Of supplemental note: Classical 'digital' information, such as what is found to be encoded on DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘non-local' (i.e. beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information, which is also encoded on DNA, by the following method:
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm Here are some related lectures on the subject: Vlatko Vedral - Entanglement and its relationship to thermodynamics - QuICC Lecture 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBBxIa2CK6o Vlatko Vedral - Entanglement and its relationship to thermodynamics - QuICC Lecture 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNpD5tjs0Cs Vlatko Vedral - Entanglement and its relationship to thermodynamics - QuICC Lecture 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5PCYhlXLHA
bornagain77
April 5, 2015
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As Box pointed out, Talbott rightly asks:
"the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?"
This is not a minor question since the human body is composed of something like a trillion billion protein molecules functioning, miraculously, as a cohesive whole:
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE – Stephen L. Talbott – May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”.,,, The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: “The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)”,,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
Andy C. McIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds, holds that non-material information is what is constraining the cell to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. Moreover, Dr. McIntosh holds that regarding information as independent of energy and matter ‘resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions’.
Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems – Andy C. McIntosh – 2013 Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9789814508728_0008
Here is a recent video by Dr. Giem, that gets the main points of Dr. McIntosh’s paper over very well for the lay person:
Biological Information – Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems 11-22-2014 by Paul Giem (A. McIntosh) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR_r6mFdwQM
Dr. McIntosh’s contention that ‘non-material information’ must be constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium is now backed up empirically. Classical Information in the cell has now been physically measured and is shown to correlate to the thermodynamics of the cell:
Maxwell’s demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle’s position) turns information into energy – November 2010 Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-maxwell-demon-energy.html Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010 Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform
As should be needless to say, the physical demonstration that ‘information has a thermodynamic content’ is extremely bad news for neo-Darwinism, (and naturalistic OOL scenarios for that matter), since Neo-Darwinism holds that information is not physically real but is merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis. Of related interest to information being physically real, and not being merely 'emergent' from a material basis as materialists hold, it is important to learn that ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement (A. Aspect, A. Zeilinger, etc..) is its own physical resource that can be used as a ‘quantum information channel’,,,
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
Where this really starts to get interesting is that the 'physically real' resource of quanrum entanglement/information is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale,,, in every DNA and protein molecule:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain - Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija - 2006 Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural - amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy - classical and quantum state, and (3) information - classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system. http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491
That ‘non-local’ quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints (Bell, Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger, etc..), should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, in every DNA and protein molecule, is a direct empirical falsification of Darwinian claims, for how can the ‘non-local’ quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) cause when the quantum entanglement effect falsified material particles as its own causation in the first place? Appealing to the probability of various 'random' configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply!
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
In other words, to give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place!bornagain77
April 5, 2015
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Having skipped through this thread, I'm wondering, are people here claiming that processes such as chemosynthesis, photosynthesis and respiration violate the second law of thermodynamics?Alicia Renard
April 5, 2015
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#322 phoenix: Piotr and Zachriel are discussing the second law of thermodynamics. God knows (so to speak) what you, Box, et al are talking about.
Our understanding of materialism is crucial for the appreciation of the 2nd law argument against materialism as presented by Niwrad.
#320 fifthmonarchyman: It should be obvious by now that when it comes to the second law the two sides are not even discussing the same things.
Exactly
#321 phoenix: If it’s illegitimate for a materialist to speak of macroscopic things — a lake, for instance — then why doesn’t a dualist face the same problem? Does an immaterial “lake soul” unite the particles into a coherent “lake whole”?
Materialism does not offer an ontological differentiation between lakes, rocks and organisms – there is nothing over and above particles in motion. Neither rocks nor organisms have existence and causal powers in and of itself. To be clear, like materialists I hold that lakes, rocks and toilets are nothing but particles in motion, however I do have a serious problem with the materialistic conception of organisms and consciousness. The materialistic concept that an organism is nothing but particles in motion – just like a lake or a rock – brings Stephen Talbott to the question:
(…) the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
If an organism has no existence in and of itself - no causal powers in and of itself – why then don’t the particles, which constitute the organism, act in accordance to the 2nd law, as they do at the moment of death and thereafter? What force prevents the particles in motion from doing what comes natural?
#25 Niwrad: Short answer: o_r_g_a_n_i_z_a_t_i_o_n. Intelligent design has organized all organisms with countless advanced ultra-sophisticated homeostatic cybernetic systems to maintain constant functionalities despite of all internal and external injuries and to contrast the 2nd_law_SM trend. When this organization shuts down the 2nd_law_SM does its destructive job, amen.
#335 Upright Biped: Phoenix, the organization that Box and Fifth are trying to get Piotr and Zachriel to address (in earnest) only comes into being through the translation of an informational medium. Your counterexample, the formation of a lake, is irrelevant to the conversation.
We must invoke top-bottom (downward) causation in order to explain organization, while under materialism all causes flow from the bottom to the top.Box
April 5, 2015
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AS, let me help you out. It appears you could really use it. This is a non sequitur:
UB: When someone wants to kill a conversation, they’ll often take a piece of their opponent’s comment and repeat it over and over and over again, like a jingle in a advertisement for soap and cereal. Or even more aptly, like a tool for rhetorical purposes AS: So when you keep popping, apparently randomly into threads and posting a comment containing the word “semiosis”, your ploy is rhetorical?
And this is a (weird) strawman of your own making:
I thought you were promoting your “argument” that the evolution of the replication, transcription, translation system of DNA, RNA, protein was impossible due to the irreducible complexity of aaRSs.
And this is a rhetorical misfire based on a non sequitur and a (weird) strawman of your own making:
Perhaps the fact you are only intent on killing conversations explains why you haven’t published your website.
cheersUpright BiPed
April 5, 2015
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Phoenix, Here again is the quote you've lifted:
“They” only exist as an arbitrary collection of particles in motion – just like a brick or a car.
Who is the "they" he speaks of? The answer is in the actual context at #270. Here is the actual quote:
Materialism is simple: nothing over and above particles in motion exist. So no, materialists do not exist as “persons”. “They” only exist as an arbitrary collection of particles in motion – just like a brick or a car.
What are materialists? Are they living organisms? And will you now actually pretend that you don't understand the tactic of voicing an unspoken logical conclusion of your opponent's position in order to get them to address it head on? Why don't you wait and ask Box if he believes materialists don't exist, or, if he just thinks they have to deal with the fact that they are unlike a brick or a car. Perhaps you'll get lucky and we'll find that Box is guilty of having a conversation with an entity that he doesn't believes exist. Who knows? Perhaps you'll have your victory; I'll be wrong about his intentions; and you won't be purposely misreading him in order to create a meaningless rhetorical diversion.Upright BiPed
April 5, 2015
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Materialists naively think that materialism is a bottom-up worldview. It is not even that. Materialism is simply an absurd BOTTOM idea and as such cannot be properly a worldview at all, and in fact explains nothing. There is no UP whatsoever for materialism. Since materialism is FLAT (mono-dimensional) it cannot explain the higher dimensions (the UP), which all things imply (ex. their organization). Differently, the correct worldview is necessarily top-down where at the top there is the "more" (Intelligence, Essence) and at the bottom there is the "less" (substance). If you want to express that in terms of modern science, we can say that information overarches matter (Abel would say "Formalism > Physicalism"). As such information explains matter, and not viceversa. Since matter = energy we have that energy cannot explain information. That is exactly the point of my twin OPs: the evolutionist compensation argument (energy organizes...) fails.niwrad
April 5, 2015
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Upright, Had you taken your own advice and read for context, you would have seen that Box's reference to "things" and "objects" extends beyond organisms:
“They” only exist as an arbitrary collection of particles in motion – just like a brick or a car. [Emphasis added]
Oops. Upright:
...on the face of it, am I ignoring the actual context of his comments at 319…or are you?
You are, obviously.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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Phoenix, lets test you out, shall we? When someone wants to kill a conversation, they'll often take a piece of their opponent's comment and repeat it over and over and over again, like a jingle in a advertisement for soap and cereal. Or even more aptly, like a tool for rhetorical purposes. This is the quote you've lifted and repeated over again from Box:
Why are materialists – like Piotr and Zachriel – arguing that under materialism there is more than particles in motion, that “things” and “objects” exist on their own?
Now let's see the context of the actual quote (#319):
Why this tedious discussion about materialism? Why are materialists – like Piotr and Zachriel – arguing that under materialism there is more than particles in motion, that “things” and “objects” exist on their own? Because they cannot deal with the argument presented in #214
Given materialism there are no organisms – there are just particles in motion. And these particles in motion don’t give a hoot about some (non-existent) organism. These particles don’t form a whole, they are all doing their own thing, blissfully unaware of something bigger than them. And one cannot explain the coherence we see in organisms from blind uninterested parts. So your basis of reasoning is a cause – the particles in motion – that is insufficient to explain the effect – a coherent whole, the organism.
Wow, would you look at that! It seems almost certain – almost beyond mistake by a reasonable reader – that Box is talking about the organization that takes place in living organisms. And living organisms are what? That's right, they only exist as the product of translated information, requiring arrangements of matter that are independent of the minimum total potential energy state of the medium (i.e. thermodynamic law). And your counterexample of "lakes" are what? That's right. Their formation is a direct product of water molecules collectively assuming their lowest potential energy state under the forces of gravity on terrestrial earth. Now, Box can surely defend his own comments if he wishes, but on the face of it, am I ignoring the actual context of his comments at 319...or are you?Upright BiPed
April 4, 2015
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Andre and Upright, Both of you are projecting your own pet ideas onto the discussion. Andre wants this to be a "get your own dirt" argument. Upright wants it to be about "biosemiosis". It's neither. It's just Box's silly claim that materialists can't talk about "things" or "objects":
Why are materialists – like Piotr and Zachriel – arguing that under materialism there is more than particles in motion, that “things” and “objects” exist on their own?
Things, including toilets, are arrangements of matter. Arrangements of matter are perfectly compatible with materialism.phoenix
April 4, 2015
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Phoenix Things can't exist on their own. Fifty and box know that. Piotr and Zach think they can. The problem is this, to be the cause of your own existence you have to exist before you existed. That counts for living and non living things and objects anything that comes into existence cannot be its own cause.Andre
April 4, 2015
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Andre,
You don’t seem to understand what box, fifty and me are trying to say.
Au contraire. You don't understand what Box and "fifty" are trying to say. Box makes it clear, though:
Why are materialists – like Piotr and Zachriel – arguing that under materialism there is more than particles in motion, that “things” and “objects” exist on their own?
Andre:
Phoenix good old auto correct on the cell phone caused to say matriarch.
I figured. :-)phoenix
April 4, 2015
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Phoenix good old auto correct on the cell phone caused to say matriarch. Fixed itAndre
April 4, 2015
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Phoenix You don't seem to understand what box, fifty and me are trying to say. Materialism can not account how such an arrangement is possible. Give it a goAndre
April 4, 2015
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Andre,
Of course a toilet is an arrangement of matter but the question is can natural laws like gravity ever create a toilet with a bowl, seat, flusher and the plumbing...
No, that is not the question. Box and fifth are arguing that materialists can't speak coherently of objects like toilets and lakes, which is nonsense, as you seem to recognize:
Of course a toilet is an arrangement of matter...
phoenix
April 4, 2015
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Andre #345, I liked it better when your comment said this:
Materialism can’t even account for where the matriarch of the toilet comes from...
It made me ask myself, "Where is Andre from, anyway?"phoenix
April 4, 2015
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Phoenix Of course a toilet is an arrangement of matter but the question is can natural laws like gravity ever create a toilet with a bowl, seat, flusher and the plumbing associated to carry the excrement from leaving your bum all the way to a sewage plant that processes it and in turn cleans the water by separating your poo? Materialism can't account for it, if they do they invoke intelligent design and for materialism that is a swear word and far more painful that uttering the word God.Andre
April 4, 2015
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OK how many people does it take when you start with one and add one at a time to yield the United States??
All of them. But how would that be a problem for materialists and not for everyone else, anyway? You haven't thought this through, fifth.phoenix
April 4, 2015
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fifth, Toilets are a nice way to highlight the absurdity of your (and Box's) caricature of materialism. It is perfectly coherent to think of toilets as arrangements of matter, as you know but won't admit.phoenix
April 4, 2015
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Hey phoenix, what is with this fixation with toilets? Are you sure you are not trolling? My worldview holds that the whole thing is just as primary it's constituent parts. Any system that is missing it's constituent parts is not a whole system. you say, just as the fact that societies are made up of people doesn’t make it incoherent to speak about the United States. I say. OK how many people does it take when you start with one and add one at a time to yield the United States?? I'm off to bed. Troll on peacefifthmonarchyman
April 4, 2015
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Andre, Perhaps you can help fifthmonarchyman out. He and Box claim that a toilet is more than an arrangement of matter. Yet he also says that no entity, material or otherwise, is needed to unite the matter into a "thing". What is the mysterious missing ingredient -- this non-entity -- that bestows toilethood on a toilet-like arrangement of porcelain, and lakehood on a lake-like arrangement of water?phoenix
April 4, 2015
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