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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
#194 Niwrad, Congratulations, the solution is correct. I got the same value of a without doing much rounding, so a small rounding error was probably introduced by Styer himself. Of course the exercise contains some questionable assumptions: why should the mean decrease of the biosphere's entropy per unit of time due to evolution have been even approximately constant over 54 million years? Why divide it by the number of organisms at the end of the process, ignoring earlier population sizes? Also the "probability decrease" rate of 10^3 per century is not explicitly justified and there are reasons to think that it should be much higher (see Bunn 2009) -- but, as you say, these are details. One can use a more refined model with more realistic coefficients and get a more plausible estimate. It doesn't matter much. What does matter is the fact that due to evolution an "improved and therefore less probable" organism can reach a macrostate which is indeed extremely improbable in comparison with its distant ancestors. So far, so good. The question now is how to interpret this result. Your numbers are OK, but your understanding of them isn't. You seem to take this vast decrease of probability as proof that the organism in question can't have evolved at all, therefore evolution is impossible. This is wrong. Styer's model assumes evolution in the first place. His purpose is to calculate if the entropy reduction in the biosphere required by evolution is not unrealistically high, given the energy/entropy limitations holding on Earth (as a result of energy flow from the Sun to the Earth and from the Earth to cold outer space). Both Styer's back-of-envelope calculations and Bunn's "more robust" argument confirm that only an infinitesimal fraction of the available energy flow is sufficient to support the required local entropy decrease (keeping life away from thermal equilibrium and providing usable energy for self-organisation), and so evolution doesn't come anywhere close to violating the 2LOT. The fact that any particular organism at the end of an evolutionary process represents an extremely unlikely macrostate (because of its extremely precise specification) doesn't mean that it can't have evolved. It only means that the precise (narrowly specified) outcome of evolution after millions of years cannot be predicted, and that if you ran the same process again, you could not get the same result (i.e. "the same" macrostate in terms of sufficiently detailed specification). But evolution has no target and never produces exactly the same thing twice. Any outcome will do. Let's compare that again with flipping a fair coin 1000 times. The probability of any specific outcome is 10^(-301), far exceeding Dembski's limit, thought it takes, say, an hour to perform the experiment (not the age of the Universe multiplied by an enormous factor). But some outcome is inevitable, it just can't be predicted accurately. And if you run the experiment again, and again, and again, you will never get the same result. So don't be misled by Really Big Numbers. They only refer to the size of an abstract sample space (measured in the number of definable microstates) and don't tell you that something is impossible,Piotr
April 2, 2015
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Sal:
Or to Dr. Lambert and those involved from removing the term “disorder” in the definition of entropy.
It doesn't make it right, Sal. You are confused.
And the wiki pedia reasoning goes like this, entropy is disorder because:
The entropy of the universe tends to a maximum.
No, Sal, I quoted the part that says the reasoning. Obviously you do have issues. AGAIN: The relationship between entropy, order, and disorder in the Boltzmann equation is so clear among physicists that according to the views of thermodynamic ecologists Sven Jorgensen and Yuri Svirezhev, “it is obvious that entropy is a measure of order or, most likely, disorder in the system.”[13]
Who has been the one misleading and polluting the minds of pro-ID chemistry, physics, and engineering students with “entropy is disorder”?
There isn't anything misleading about entropy is disorder. Your issues don't hold any weight.
Joe
April 2, 2015
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Piotr Call "a" the answer requested by Styer Cambrian = 542-488 = 54 x 10^6 years = 1.703 x 10^15 seconds organisms = 10^18 change entropy all biosphere each sec = -302 J/K (Styer Eq.5) change entropy 1 organism during Cambrian: -302 x 1.703 x 10^15 / 10^18 = -514.316 x 10^-3 J/K Wf = Wi / a entropy difference between final and initial state: Sf-Si = k x ln(Wi /a) - k x ln (Wi) = k x ln(1/a) -514.316 x 10^-3 = 1.38 x 10^-23 x ln(1/a) ln(1/a) = -372.69 x 10^20 a = e^(372.69 x 10^20) = 10^(1.62 x 10^22) From this a value you continue reading the paragraph "Implausibility of evolution" above to get the probability of the final state "evoluted". Note: I get 1.62 while Styer gets 1.8, likely due to rounding somewhere, but the substance is equal.niwrad
April 2, 2015
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would we be within reason to state that we are dealing with a type of thermodynamic entropy?
No, imho. 500 fair copper pennies in a stable heads/tails configuration is modeled classically as being at rest after being flipped or whatever, hence zero kinetic energy even though there is kinetic energy in the vibrating copper molecules (thermodynamic). The classical macroscopic energy state defined by each coin at rest is 0: KE = 1/2 m v ^2 v = 0, ergo KE = 0 even though there is kinetic energy in the copper molecules. This energy state gives us ZERO information about the heads/tails configuration of the coins. Additionally, thermodynamic entropy is a state function, meaning, the history of how it got to that level of entropy is not embedded into the entropy amount. Example: the thermodynamic entropy of 500 pure copper pennies is: 826.68 J/K or 8.636 x 10^25 bits We don't know that it got there via being first cold or hot in the last 10 minutes. We know the KE state function of the coins is zero Joules of energy, but we don't know how it came to rest by the current KE number. More significantly, we can't tell that something is heads or tails by the present KE number or thermodynamic entropy number, and that is a problem if one is trying to infer present mechanical configuration based on functions defined only by present energy such as total kinetic energy and thermodynamic entropy! By way of induction, delta-S values are also almost as meaningless unless one has the entire history of the system in some other records. The necessary physical information for inferring design is driven by the history or total boundary conditions involved. Unfortunately that information is erased or not present in state function variables. Thankfully, even though we might not have necessary information, there are a few cases we might providentially have sufficient information. Example: the symbolic information (like the coins being 100% heads), we don't need all the history of the coin's evolution, we have sufficient information to reject the chance hypothesis. The bottom line is that although energy is influential in determining design, state functions that are merely functions of present kinetic energy (thermal entropy is a state function of the kinetic energy of the molecules, number of molecules, volume, pressure), do not give us sufficient information that is of interest to ID proponents. In that sense 2LOT entropy has insufficient information regarding evolution of design because it is a state function, not a historical record. One can of course bypass the need of historical records in inferring design if one providentially deals with a situation where LLN can be applied such as 500 fair coins 100% heads, or provisionally "all amino acids left handed despite thermal disordering tendencies", etc. I think LLN is more general,foundational and elementary than 2LOT or statistical mechanics. Here is a terse paraphrase of LLN: "average value tends toward expected value in chance processes". With this in mind I can say,
500 fair coins 100% heads is not by chance because average value of should tend is expected value and 100% heads is sufficiently far from expectation to warrant rejecting the chance hypothesis
In no way could I even attempt to reject the chance hypothesis using 2LOT. If this can't be done for such trivial designs as coins using 2LOT, I don't think it can be done for more complex designs. That's why I would recommend to next generation IDists, rely on LLN not 2LOT.scordova
April 1, 2015
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scordova, I agree with almost everything you've written in your last post. However, you still are only referring to personal preference, and 'the way things have been done' and you are not dealing with either my final syllogism or the main point. Scordova: "He’ll reject it based on the LLN, not 2LOT. Here is a clear cut case where the heads/tails configuration and heads/tails entropy of the system is considered in making a design (non-chance) inference without conflating it with 2LOT." Of course, because he's thinking just deep enough to reference the LLN, and indeed he is correct. Problem is, if he stops there, he's not thinking as deep as he could when tracing the development of said pattern. Every single configuration of matter is the result of energy transfer -- thermodynamics. So, before I continue with my argument (and re-iterate and expand key points) I need to ask you if, as a matter of either principle or mathematics, 2LOT can only deal with J/K measurements. If there was another subcategory of thermodynamic measurement that was derived from statistical mathematics, dealing with the movement from low to high multiplicity of macrostates, and if the only difference between this subcategory and J/K entropy was the choice of macrostate, would we be within reason to state that we are dealing with a type of thermodynamic entropy? Keep in mind that this subcategory still deals with measurements of energy transfer (thermodynamics), just not in J/K, thus not necessarily 'heat' measurements. "No statistician I know of would reject the chance hypothesis by saying : clearly 500 fair coins in the 100% heads configuration is not the result of chance because “heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time [aka Clausius statement of 2LOT]” Did anyone here, especially myself, even imply anything of the sort? Does my final syllogism or conclusion indicate anything of the sort? This statement of yours doesn't seem to add to the discussion. "If such a non-sequitur line of reasoning won’t fit the simple example of 500 fair coins, why is it reasonable to try to apply these same sorts of non-sequiturs to more complex designs." When did I ever apply that line of reasoning. Did I imply it in my final syllogism or conclusion somewhere? Furthermore, I haven't mentioned anything, to my remembrance, pertaining to complexity of design other than indirectly in reference to multiplicity of macrostates, I guess. "... a 747 won’t spontaneously assemble by a tornado because “heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time [aka Clausius statement of 2LOT] this would be a non-sequitur." I see you are still missing my points. How does this relate to any of my points? I guess this type of statement from you is why I've asked you the question above in this post referencing a 'hypothetical' thermodynamic macrostate not specifically measuring 'heat.' "I think he was careful and gallantly did his best, but he would have been served better if the reviewer were someone like Dr. Lambert who was referenced in: http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ I don’t think they would have sanctioned any notion that equated disorder with entropy, and that was at the heart of Dr. Sewell’s argument." No they definitely would not. However, there is some sloppy reasoning when they go from people's misinterpretation of homogeneity/equilibrium as 'order' to jumping to the conclusion that intuitive concepts such as order and disorder are no good in this discussion. Instead, I think those intuitive concepts should be properly and rigorously defined without conflating order and organization. I'm actually surprised by their lack of curiosity. Is there any possibility of rigorously defining and including order into an understanding of 2LOT? I believe so, but it seems a proper attempt hasn't even been made ... by that group of researchers at least. I do think that 'entropysite' is an excellent site, and we will definitely have to discuss order, and organization soon. I think these concepts are ripe for rigorous development, especially in their their relation to thermodynamics and 2LOT. But I'll leave it at that for now. We'll get back to that in the future. Finally, do you disagree with Granville's conclusion that the mere opening of a system to heat flow does not automatically make the highly improbable become probable? That appears to be his main point. It appears that you merely disagree with how he gets to that position, correct? "Further, No Free Lunch (NFL), by Dembski page 131, most certainly showed entropy INCREASE was necessary for complexity increase. NFL most certainly did not equate entropy with disorder or disorganization." Configuration entropy or J/K entropy? An important distinction since it appears that we both realize that J/K entropy is a subset of configuration entropy, while not all configuration entropy is J/K entropy. NFL also probably (I haven't fully read it yet, so correct me if I'm wrong) didn't attempt to rigorously define order and organization. I presume that wasn't in it's scope. I have however read many times through, 'Specification: The Pattern that Signifies Intelligence.' This paper was a clarification of some of the points within NFL if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while.CJYman
April 1, 2015
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I guess it isn’t so obvious for some people, hey Sal, Piotr, TSZ?
Or to Dr. Lambert and those involved from removing the term "disorder" in the definition of entropy. http://entropysite.oxy.edu/
“Entropy is disorder” is an archaic, misleading definition of entropy dating from the late 19th century before knowledge of molecular behavior, of quantum mechanics and molecular energy levels, or of the Third Law of thermodynamics. It seriously misleads beginning students, partly because “disorder” is a common word, partly because it has no scientific meaning in terms of energy or energy dispersal. Ten examples conclusively demonstrate the inadequacy of “disorder” in general chemistry.
Who has been the one misleading and polluting the minds of pro-ID chemistry, physics, and engineering students with “entropy is disorder”? Not me. :-) Note:
The 36 Science Textbooks That Have Deleted “disorder” From Their Description of the Nature of Entropy (As advocated in the publications of Dr. Frank L. Lambert, Professor Emeritus, Chemistry, Occidental College.)
And the wiki pedia reasoning goes like this, entropy is disorder because:
The entropy of the universe tends to a maximum.
That can be proven without recourse to assuming entropy is disorder, it can be derived by the Clausius inequality and associated integral. Therefore what Wikipedia reported is wrong. Care to do the calculation of universal entropy rise from the Clausius definition of delta-S, Joe, since you supposedly know so much. :-)scordova
April 1, 2015
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Piotr, I am just pointing out there are scientists, non-ID scientists, who say entropy = disorder. But I understand that would get you all upset. Do you really think I have been following along? I don't need the 2LoT- I know your position doesn't have anything and that makes the 2LoT irrelevant to the discussion. If you ever come up with something we can see if the law applies.Joe
April 1, 2015
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Joe, Since you know so much about these things, perhaps you could help Niwrad with Styer’s student exercise #2?Piotr
April 1, 2015
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Entropy (order and disorder):
The relationship between entropy, order, and disorder in the Boltzmann equation is so clear among physicists that according to the views of thermodynamic ecologists Sven Jorgensen and Yuri Svirezhev, “it is obvious that entropy is a measure of order or, most likely, disorder in the system.”[13] In this direction, the second law of thermodynamics, as famously enunciated by Rudolf Clausius in 1865, states that:“The entropy of the universe tends to a maximum."
I guess it isn't so obvious for some people, hey Sal, Piotr, TSZ?Joe
April 1, 2015
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this discussion is based on nuanced connections between entropy that defines all macrostates vs. entropy that defines thermodynamic states as measured in J/K
I gave a very simple example. Ask a statistician whether he would reject the chance hypothesis as an explanation of 500 fair coins in the 100% heads configuration. He'll reject it based on the LLN, not 2LOT. Here is a clear cut case where the heads/tails configuration and heads/tails entropy of the system is considered in making a design (non-chance) inference without conflating it with 2LOT. No statistician I know of would reject the chance hypothesis by saying :
clearly 500 fair coins in the 100% heads configuration is not the result of chance because "heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time [aka Clausius statement of 2LOT]"
Such a statement sounds like a non-sequitur because it is a non-sequitur. If such a non-sequitur line of reasoning won't fit the simple example of 500 fair coins, why is it reasonable to try to apply these same sorts of non-sequiturs to more complex designs. If similarly someone says,
a 747 won't spontaneously assemble by a tornado because "heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time [aka Clausius statement of 2LOT]"
this would be a non-sequitur. Tornados won't make the 747, but 2LOT isn't the reason, LLN is.
Scordova, can you tell me if Granville has indeed been careful with the technical details in your opinion?
I think he was careful and gallantly did his best, but he would have been served better if the reviewer were someone like Dr. Lambert who was referenced in: http://entropysite.oxy.edu/ I don't think they would have sanctioned any notion that equated disorder with entropy, and that was at the heart of Dr. Sewell's argument. Further, No Free Lunch (NFL), by Dembski page 131, most certainly showed entropy INCREASE was necessary for complexity increase. NFL most certainly did not equate entropy with disorder or disorganization.scordova
April 1, 2015
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#184 Niwrad, Of course I know how to do the calculations (which are indeed simple). Do you? Here's a challenge for you: I'll give you 24 hours. It's a generous deadline, since the exercise (Problem #2) can be done in 15 minutes. Since you claim that "IDers provide results in numbers that [I/we] don’t like", show me/us how you IDers arrive at those numbers. A brief explanation would be welcome to prove that you know what those computations mean. If you don't do it, I'll take it as your admission that you have no idea what you are talking about (though you keep talking none the less). Of course after 24 hrs I'll show you my solution.Piotr
April 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Of course you know that Evolution does not determine the characteristics of constituent atoms or the load bearing distinctives of calcium. That's exactly right. Evolution fits the phenotype to the environment, the phenotype being the available structures. Evolution doesn't work on a blank space, but this highly complex interrelationship. Gravity may be the environment, but the characteristics of muscle and bone are what evolution manipulates (among other adaptations).Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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Piotr It's funny how you evolutionists, who routinely ask IDers to provide quantitative results ("how much CSI?", "quantify organization!", "ID is not scientific for it doesn't provide calculations" ...), behave when IDers provide results in numbers that you don't like. As in this case about a probability calculation, ... "probabilities don’t mean much by themselves and have to be interpreted in a context" -- you say -- ... aahh, when numbers are against evolution then numbers don't matter! Double standard. "I get everything backwards, including the “simple reasoning” copied from Styer’s “Entropy and Evolution”"?? Have you resolved Styer's student problem #2 in Appendix? I doubt it, given you accuse me of "getting everything backwards". At least Styer has honestly computed and reported the numeric solution (likely without being aware that this way he would have shot himself and all evolutionists on the foot). I simply added 1 bit to the story to get the probability. Do the homework. Maybe you will understand Styer and also my final bit you dislike so much.niwrad
April 1, 2015
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#172 Niwrad, It's funny how you manage to get everything backwards, including the "simple reasoning" copied from Styer's "Entropy and Evolution". It doesn't mean what you think it means (in a way, it means the reverse of what you make of it), but I can see by now that any attempts to explain it to you are futile.Piotr
April 1, 2015
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Zac Of course you know that Evolution does not determine the characteristics of constituent atoms or the load bearing distinctives of calcium. This has like all conversations with you become boring. I only wish someone on your side were capable of a genuine honest discussion. oh well peacefifthmonarchyman
April 1, 2015
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Zachriel:
For instance, the characteristics of constituent atoms determines how a protein will fold,
Maybe for some proteins but most need chaperones otherwise they won't fold:
It has recently become clear that protein folding in the cellular environment is not a spontaneous, energy-independent process akin to that observed when chemically denatured purified polypeptides are refolded in vitro. Rather, in vivo protein folding strongly relies on accessory proteins known as molecular chaperones and foldases.--Molecular Chaperones and Foldases (bold added)
Joe
April 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Actually the shape of the “balloon” is entirely due to the constraints of the environment. That's not correct. For instance, the characteristics of constituent atoms determines how a protein will fold, and the distribution of charges on its surface. Another instance, the strength of bone tissue helps determine the cross-sectional size of limb bones. It's the relationship of the phenotype to the environment that determines the fitness. Meanwhile, stochastic processes explore the surrounding fitness landscape.Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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Scordova, I do see and appreciate the point you are making, however you appear to be glossing over the main point as brought to your attention by myself and others, as reiterated by Box (#92). As such, your argument while partially true, is somewhat devolving into an explanation of personal preference rather than dealing with statements of fact. I'll respond to your conflation of order and organization in a later comment, but first I would wish for you to deal with the main point that I repeated a few times in my last comment and reiterated in the final syllogism. But first, a response to one thing you stated: "...but not all entropies are covered by 2LOT. LLN (law of large numbers) would be the more general law appropriate for this, not 2LOT. LLN is implicitly at the heart of 2LOT, not the other way around." 1. How can 2LOT not cover energy flow configurations that are not measured in J/K, that are highly constrained (low multiplicity) and required for building a 747 for example? 2. Isn't LLN the explicit basis for statistical thermodynamics as the explanation for why we have a second law of thermodynamics? In the end, I will agree with part of your assessment of the situation if you can show the 2LOT only applies, in principle to J/K measurements, even if configuration entropy (as opposed to 'J/K' entropy) also deals specifically with the configuration of heat flow (thermodynamics) in 'non-J/K' macrostate terms that utilize all the same principles as statistical thermodynamics. If it is indeed the case that referring to an apparent violation of configuration entropy of energy flow (high constraint in generation and direction/application) is not related to thermodynamics, then my final syllogism only needs a simple re-wording and the impact remains the same: P1. Configuration multiplicity provides the basis for statistical thermodynamics. P2. Statistical thermodynamics provides the rationale behind why 2LOT exists. P3. If configuration entropy is apparently violated, then statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated. P4. If statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated then the foundation of our understanding of why 2LOT is true is apparently violated. C1. Therefore, a violation of configuration entropy would be a violation of the foundation of 2LOT. C2. If the 'change in J/K' measurements of 2LOT are to remain correct, a re-write of the connection between statistical thermodynamics and 2LOT would be required. In the end, the fact is that this discussion is based on nuanced connections between entropy that defines all macrostates vs. entropy that defines thermodynamic states as measured in J/K. If 2LOT only deals with J/K measurements then the most that can be said is that if a violation of configuration entropy is allowed then a violation of 2LOT is allowed unless statistical thermodynamics is incomplete in that regard. However, if 2LOT deals with thermodynamics beyond only J/K measurements then it appears that qualifiers are not necessary since there are more measurements of thermodynamic systems in regards to macrostates than merely temperature, pressure, and volume. Degree of constraint and applied direction of energy flow (ie: energy flow 'tolerance') required to create further low multiplicity systems would be one such measurement. Either way, the point that has been carried through all these discussions remains, even if we need to be more careful in our technical descriptions and wording. Scordova, can you tell me if Granville has indeed been careful with the technical details in your opinion? With that being said, do you agree with my conclusions on the discussion to this point, as quoted verbatim from my last post: "The whole point from the very beginning of the tornado vs. city block example was that certain macrostates require very specific conditions beyond simply uneven heat transfer for any sort of reversibility and are indeed irreversible even under conditions of mere open system heat flow. Simply put: a compensation factor is required for certain configurational macrostates (Tornado vs. city block or sun vs. doghouse examples) to be reversible and anyone who states otherwise is promoting an apparent violation of the very foundations of the operation of 2LOT. When we finally have that understanding settled, we can carry on with a discussion of what is the required compensation -- mere heat flow in an open system or a prior thermodynamic system of lower configuration entropy or something else?"CJYman
April 1, 2015
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Zac says, The shape of the balloon is the fit of the phenotype to the environment. I say Actually the shape of the "balloon" is entirely due to the constraints of the environment. All the helium (evolution) does is fill up the space.The shape is there all along even when the balloon is deflated. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Evolution like the gas is not targeting anything in particular therefore it is not an explanation for anything in particular. The shape of the balloon is the fit of the phenotype to the environment.Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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Zac says, The nature of a gas doesn’t explain the intricate shape I say, exactly !!!! Evolution like the gas is not targeting anything in particular therefore it is not an explanation for anything in particular. That is my point. As far as evolution is concerned a highly specified low entropy event is no more likely than any other possible configuration of matter. Therefore as you granted evolution can not be used as an explanation for these events. Notice I'm not saying that particular events like these are impossible only that evolution is not the reason they exist. I rest my case. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Imagine if someone tried to explain the intricate shapes of the Mikey Mouse float by appealing to the helium. The nature of a gas doesn't explain the intricate shape, but is an example of how something can “not target anything in particular”, yet still find particular things.Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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zac says. A gas released into a vacuum chamber is an example of how something can “not target anything in particular”, yet still find particular things, in this case, the nooks and crannies of a vacuum chamber. I say, Correct, just like helium finds the nooks and crannies in a thanksgiving day balloon. Imagine if someone tried to explain the intricate shapes of the Mikey Mouse float by appealing to the helium. http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2011/11/this-week-in-disney-history-mickey-debuts-in-the-macys-thanksgiving-day-parade/ That's some comedy for ya ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
April 1, 2015
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niwrad: Cambrian evolution has infinitesimal probability, less than 1 / 10^(1.8 x 10^22) What are the odds of a storm center forming from a chance arrangement of microstates which is -50 millibars and -5°C from equilibrium.Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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Piotr Rubbish is your comment. From what Styer says, one can mathematically calculate the probability of one Cambrian individual organism, by mean of the simple reasoning I provide at the end of the article. If you are so scientifically educated person as you say you should have no problem to understand such basic elementary calculation.niwrad
April 1, 2015
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-c- Cambrian evolution has infinitesimal probability, less than 1 / 10^(1.8 x 10^22)
Rubbish. This is not even what Styer actually says. What he does say is this: assuming that at the end of the Cambrian explosion [sic] there were 10^18 individual multicellular animals, any given individual was 10^(1.8 x 10^22) times "less probable" than their common ancestor. It doesn't mean that the Cambrian explosion itself was infinitesimally probable, or impossible, or whatever. And let me repeat for the umpteenth time that probabilities don't mean much by themselves and have to be interpreted in a context.Piotr
April 1, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: According to evolution any particular highly complex configuration we see is no more likely than any other possible grouping of matter. You're not very good with analogies, are you? The movement of gas molecules is stochastic. A gas released into a vacuum chamber is an example of how something can "not target anything in particular", yet still find particular things, in this case, the nooks and crannies of a vacuum chamber. The evolutionary fitness space is multidimensional and much more complex than a vacuum container, while the gas is much more tenuous than in the thought-experiment. fifthmonarchyman: As far as evolution is concerned the amazing highly specified low entropy things we see in nature are produced by the equivalent of gas filling up the various corners of a vacuum chamber. Actually, an important question is how much of evolution is like filling the nooks and crannies and how much is contingent. niwrad: systems tend to probable states Unless work is done.Zachriel
April 1, 2015
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At the very end the issue of this OP (coupled with my previous one) is very simple. I can summarize it in few words and one number: -a- systems tend to probable states -b- energy doesn't organize and compensation arguments fail -c- Cambrian evolution has infinitesimal probability, less than 1 / 10^(1.8 x 10^22) Then evolution is implausible. N.B. No need of entropy, order, disorder concepts. Evolutionists (led by scordova) obfuscate what is very simple. If they deny a and b they deny logic, physics, evidence. If they deny c they deny Styer (an evolutionist) not me. The trustworthy IDers who have fought this battle with me, better than me, have perfectly understood that. I wish to thank them for their indefatigable defense of the truth, here and elsewhere. Be quiet and calm, remember what was said: "The truth is a reality that cannot be destroyed by what opposes it, rather the truth destroys what opposes it."niwrad
April 1, 2015
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Then you should be able to name a component or gene that did not exist prior to the experiment.
the gene coding for a protein involved in citrate transport that is expressed under aerobic conditions.
What an ignorant tool! The gene was in the organism. No new genes were formed in this experiment. You are one deluded chump, franklin. I guess your desperation is borne from the fact that your position has nothing.Joe
April 1, 2015
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vel:
But it was non functional, it was missing parts.
What gene was it missing? Franklin was too afraid to answer that question and I bet you won't either.Joe
April 1, 2015
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