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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
KF: Several and complex, while not given in precise quantitative terms, do indicate multiple (several, AmHD:1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many”) parts Why the exclusion of "many", the more interdependent the more persuasive it seems. Perhaps this is just an informal definition, though if this was to be the silver bullet, precision would seem to be warranted. Just curious ,could you estimate the increase of FSCO in the ecoli if any?velikovskys
March 31, 2015
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kf
Several and complex, while not given in precise quantitative terms, do indicate multiple (several, AmHD:1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many”) parts that must fit and couple together in a complex to yield a function. Where, complex, per Collins ED means: “1. made up of various interconnected parts; composite.”
Which the evolved IC system in Lenski expt fits to a tee! If you, as well as joe, think that this is not a evolved IC system which component(s) may be removed and have the aerobic transport of citrate function be maintained? kf
Setting up and knocking over a strawman caricature may be convenient and may give comfort to those looking for an excuse to dismiss, but it neither answers the material issue nor commends itself as serious-minded.
yes I agree your construction of a strawman charicature is irrelevant. We are discussing the aerobic transport of citrate which clearly evolved in the Lenski expt and the mutational pathway is well documented. The aerobic tranport of citrate in e coli is clearly a novel function as well as IC. jow
The entire system existed- the citrate transport system existed, just one protein was not present when in an aerobic environment.
simple question, joe, did the strain of E coli used in Lenski's expt have the ability to transport citrate across the cell membrane in the presence at the start of the expt? Or is it an evolved function? So it is as i thought. ID has no methodology to determine if a sequence of mutational events is designed or not. thank you for clarifying what was obvious to most everyone outside of the ID camp. It 'seems' to be designed is the best that the ID pseudoscience paradigm can muster. kf
That is, you want something with a core of at bare minimum four to five interconnected interacting parts such that absence, loss or material defect of any one of the core parts implies non-function or loss of function. In the classic case, the flagellum, the number of parts is of order in the low multiple dozens.,/blockquote> you will have to do better in jsutifying why a system of, say, three components is not irreducibly complex if you cannot remove one and have the function be maintained. please stop moving the goalposts and deal with the actual data from lenski's expt.
franklin
March 31, 2015
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Joe: Gene duplication is evidence enough for design. The type of gene duplication that took place in this case is definitely evidence for it. To be clear, Lenski's experiment was supporting evidence for design? The example clarified the definition. So several means five or more, got it.velikovskys
March 31, 2015
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The example clarified the definition.Joe
March 31, 2015
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Joe If it has less than 5 it does not qualify. "A single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning”…Darwin’s Black Box" No vel, I was just using Behe’s most simple example as a starting point. Sorry, I thought you were using his definitionvelikovskys
March 31, 2015
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Franklin: Please note:
What type of biological system could not be formed by “numerous successive, slight modifications?” Well, for starters, a system that is irreducibly complex. By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the [core] parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. [DBB, p. 39]
Several and complex, while not given in precise quantitative terms, do indicate multiple (several, AmHD:1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many") parts that must fit and couple together in a complex to yield a function. Where, complex, per Collins ED means: "1. made up of various interconnected parts; composite." That is, you want something with a core of at bare minimum four to five interconnected interacting parts such that absence, loss or material defect of any one of the core parts implies non-function or loss of function. In the classic case, the flagellum, the number of parts is of order in the low multiple dozens. Thus, you face the Menuge challenge C1 - 5:
For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. ( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)
Setting up and knocking over a strawman caricature may be convenient and may give comfort to those looking for an excuse to dismiss, but it neither answers the material issue nor commends itself as serious-minded. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2015
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franklin, What is your problem? The entire system existed- the citrate transport system existed, just one protein was not present when in an aerobic environment. Statistical methodology? You have to be desperate. Gene duplication is evidence enough for design. The type of gene duplication that took place in this case is definitely evidence for it. What else is there besides sheer dumb luck? How is that science?Joe
March 31, 2015
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No vel, I was just using Behe's most simple example as a starting point.Joe
March 31, 2015
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Joe: vel, Lenski’s experiment can only account for ONE component. ONE is less than several. According to you,so is 3 and 4velikovskys
March 31, 2015
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RE Lenski- The entire system existed in the organism.
no, there was no aerobic citrate transport system in this strain of e coli. In fact the absence of such function constitutes the bases for the Citrate test which is a diagnostic tool used to identify e coli versus other pathogenic bacteria. joe
n an anaerobic environment it functioned just fine. In an aerobic environment the gene that coded for the transport protein was not expressed.
true. the e coli strain used in the Lenski expt did not possess the ability to transport citrate across the cell membrane, in the presence of oxygen, prior to the evolution of that function....which represents, of course, an IC system that once did not exist and now does. joe
The entire system was already in place.
no. The aerobic citrate transport system did not exist prior to its evolution in this expt. joe
All that happened was the existing gene for that transport protein was duplicated and placed under the control of a promoter that was not turned off by oxygen such that the gene was expressed, the protein made and the system ran as designed.
you've forgotten to include the potentiating mutations as well as the activating mutations that occurred in the evolutionary pathway of this irreducibly complex system. I've asked you several times before what statistical methodology do ID researchers use to differentiate designed versus non-design in this expt. Does this methodolgy exist or is it as joe said before....'it seems designed to me' the depth of the scientific riogr that ID brings to the table?franklin
March 31, 2015
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RE Lenski- The entire system existed in the organism. In an anaerobic environment it functioned just fine. In an aerobic environment the gene that coded for the transport protein was not expressed. The entire system was already in place. All that happened was the existing gene for that transport protein was duplicated and placed under the control of a promoter that was not turned off by oxygen such that the gene was expressed, the protein made and the system ran as designed. ;)Joe
March 31, 2015
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Piotr, you are wrong. Try taking on the evidence as opposed to all else.Joe
March 31, 2015
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#106
Clear, informal and down to earth.
And self-published. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Long View Press--Academic seems to exist solely in order to print books written or edited by David L. Abel -- "peer-reviewed publications", as he calls them. Like the Department of ProtoBioCybernetics and ProtoBioSemiotics, the Gene Emergence Project, and the Origin of Life Science Foundation, Inc., this fake publishing company is part of a cargo-cult enterprise satisfying one man's epic vanity.Piotr
March 31, 2015
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vel, Lenski's experiment can only account for ONE component. ONE is less than several. And not only that the component was already there. LosersJoe
March 31, 2015
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franklin:
So a system that cannot function if any of the parts is removed is only IC if it has at least 5 parts……..2, 3, or 4 parts don;t count even if the removal of any of them eliminate function. What is the definition of irreducibly complex again….it seems it has been changed from what has been put forth previously.
Way to ignore what I posted and prattle on like a loser.
It also means that continued 5-yard passes moves the ball down the field but it also doesn’t preclude completing a 60 yard pass as well.
many people can throw a 5 yard pass. Only a few can throw a 60 yard pass.
that is an assertion of yours with no supporting evidence.
All you have are evidence-free assertions. Perhaps YOU could post the entailments for unguided evolution so we can see if Lenski's experiment fits.Joe
March 31, 2015
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Fifth, it's not true at all that specific adaptations require an expected sequence of events. It is that adaptation can only modify what is already present. The strength of evolution is it's ability to drive adaptation. Now you point me to a highly controversial idea in species at the very base of the evolutionary tree of animals that we don't know much about and that have been evolving for hundreds of millions of years. The evolution of neurons twice is less likely than it happening just once based on "chance" alone and with all other things being equal. But this is not how it works and all other things are not equal. We are talking about a time in evolutionary history when new tissue types are being experimented with by evolution and the arrival of "proto-neural tissue" is not as impossible as the article makes it out to be. They mention that neurons must physically connect with each other and that they must be able to send and receive signals, but all cells/tissues do these things. Don't take secondhand information that has been punched-up and dumbed-down, as gospel.Curly Howard
March 31, 2015
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Scordova,
Scordova:
Box: In every post you harp on the fact that it [design] isn’t included [in description of thermodynamic macrostates] as if we are not aware of that fact. Please be so kind to assume that we know.
So then what’s the excuse for continuing to conflate and equivocate non-thermodynamic macrostates with thermodynamic ones? As was done in the very next sentence:
Box: The question is whether the 2nd law’s tendency towards probable macrostates – despite the absence of e.g. Specified Functionality in the definition of macrostate
I cannot remember ever been quoted so incorrectly! This is what I wrote:
Box: The question is whether the 2nd law’s tendency towards probable macrostates – despite the absence of e.g. Specified Functionality in the definition of macrostate – nonetheless precludes the formation of spaceships, computers and the internet by purely natural forces.
Now explain where in this sentence do I "conflate and equivocate non-thermodynamic macrostates with thermodynamic ones"? Moreover you conveniently ignore the central question of my post:
The question remains: “can a spontaneous macrostate with maximum multiplicity ever be a computer or a space ship?” Some of us hold that the answer to that question is a resound “NO”. And if that answer is correct what does that tell us about the relationship between the 2nd law and organization?
- - // More on your quotations: In #111 you "quote" Niwrad saying “entropy is disorder” and go on about it at length, but where does Niwrad say “entropy is disorder”? I cannot find it. What I did find however is Niwrad saying in post #89, speaking about his last two posts on this subject, that "in both posts I never used the terms entropy, order, disorder."Box
March 31, 2015
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joe
How many parts are there, franklin? Even Behe’s mousetrap had 5. If it has less than 5 it does not qualify.
So a system that cannot function if any of the parts is removed is only IC if it has at least 5 parts........2, 3, or 4 parts don;t count even if the removal of any of them eliminate function. What is the definition of irreducibly complex again....it seems it has been changed from what has been put forth previously. joe
You don’t falsify something by going after the minimum. Throwing a 5 yard pass does not mean you can throw a 60 yard pass.
It also means that continued 5-yard passes moves the ball down the field but it also doesn't preclude completing a 60 yard pass as well. joe
It is something blind and undirected processes could not do.
that is an assertion of yours with no supporting evidence. Clearly the system evolved so I'm asking what methodological rigor do you brin g to the table to differentiate 'blind and undirected versus directed and unblinded;? joe
Taking the exact gene and duplicating it so it is under the control of a proper promoter doesn’t seem like a blind and undirected process.
"doesn't seem" is severely lacking in scientific rigor, joe. Perhaps you could outline the statistical methodology that IDists use to analyze such data/results which clearly delineate that the process was directed versus undirected. If yu cannot do this could you explain why not?franklin
March 31, 2015
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Joe How many parts are there, franklin? Even Behe’s mousetrap had 5. If it has less than 5 it does not qualify. "A single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning"...Darwin's Black Box Definition of several... 1. more than two but not many. You don’t falsify something by going after the minimum. Throwing a 5 yard pass does not mean you can throw a 60 yard pass. But until you throw a five yard pass ,we don't you can even do that.velikovskys
March 31, 2015
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Dr Selenski, thanks again. When this budget season -- talk about politics = folly + tricks -- is finally over, I am going to have me a reading feast. Classics and new stuff, plus a couple of Java Books for light reading. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2015
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Hey scordova, Could you briefly address my variation of Schroedinger’s cat thought experiment in 72. Thanks in advance peace
I wouldn't go there. To quote Stephen Hawking: "When I hear about Schrodinger's cat, I reach for my gun." http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/PQNdTKSEGUah7TGhd-JQig2.jpgscordova
March 31, 2015
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SalC, please reflect on the actual serious argument on the table. If you will, state is a concept that has different levels of meaning and depending on how particular, there is a different level of specificity involved. At macro level convenient for gross heat and energy flows, classic variables at lab level will do such as PVT etc. But when observable state can be functionally specified and is connected to much finer grained constraint, we are dealing with the micro level, and the imposition of configurational constraints at that level becomes material. It is no accident that cells rely on prescriptive info in D/RNA, ribosomes as assemblers and loaded tRNAs which are where the force of translation comes out. For the CCA end universal joint tool tip could in principle take any AA, but based on tRNA config a particular loading enzyme loads a specific AA. This guides protein chain assembly with start, sequencing and stop. Algorithm. Going further, it seems some experiments have been carried out with alternative loadings to create novel AA chains. In short we see here how open systems couple energy and mass flows under informational control to do constructive work in constructor machines. The proteins then come about by onward processes of folding, agglomeration, modification/activation, etc. So, the actual observations point to cybernetic processes not reliance on irrelevant energy or mass flows. Including random thermal agitation leading to diffusion etc. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2015
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KS, My pleasure :) I have been waiting for this book. It does well in attempting to disentangle a terminological knot around the OOL.EugeneS
March 31, 2015
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franklin:
Pf the evolved aerobic citrate transport system is not IC then you should have no problem telling us which parts of the system may be removed and the aerobic transport of citrate remains functional.
How many parts are there, franklin? Even Behe's mousetrap had 5. If it has less than 5 it does not qualify. You don't falsify something by going after the minimum. Throwing a 5 yard pass does not mean you can throw a 60 yard pass.
The mutational pathway taken in this expt. is clearly documented so please describe for us, joe, the statistical methodology that ID uses to determine if the pattern fits a ‘blind or unblinded’ process.
It is something blind and undirected processes could not do. Taking the exact gene and duplicating it so it is under the control of a proper promoter doesn't seem like a blind and undirected process.Joe
March 31, 2015
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Dr Selenski, yes, classical Thermo_D is indeed not the correct level. An informationally informed look at the microscopic view that for 100+ years has shaped our understanding of inter alia 2LOT, does provide some tools. But, we must be willing to actually look through the telescope to see the imperfections on the Moon or the satellites of Jupiter. KF PS: The book is free for download! Amazing! PPS: This caught my eye right off, pp. 122 - 3: >>3.15 Complexity does not equal abstract concept, organization or functionality “Emergence” is the term used in an effort to give substance to belief in self-organization. Emergence describes a supposedly spontaneous rise in integrative utilitarian controls and formal functionality of a system. The contention is, “Organized bio-function didn’t have to be prescribed. It just emerged,” meaning, “it just happened.” The first topic of discussion should be to ask HOW, by what mechanism, did organized bio-function just “emerge?” What is the scientific basis for this notion? How was it established that faith in “emergence” is anything more than blind-belief and superstition? Are we sure that the notion of emergence is not just a product of having to remain logically consistent with a purely metaphysical, materialistic, philosophic commitment? Relentless research into mere “complexity” in an effort to elucidate the key to life’s controls has led nowhere. 313 Mere complexity cannot steer physicodynamic events toward formal organization, biochemical productivity, energy capture, transduction, storage and utilization. 6,31,62,70,85,86,275,314 Maximum complexity is randomness, not formal function. Local and temporary movement away from equilibrium arises only from expedient operation of Maxwell’s demon’s trap door. 29,30 Life does not spring from complexity. Life springs from quality parts production, imaginative integration of those components, efficient management, constant negative and positive feedback regulation, and quality control. In short, cellular organization and integration of its component systems into a holistic metabolism require expert programming. 26,27,315 | Life is hardware, wetware and software. Programming is a form of Prescriptive Information (PI). 2,6,7,20,39 Regulation, the new “buzz word” of contemporary systems biology, is a form of control that must be formally prescribed, not physically constrained. Sinewave patterns prescribe no specific function. Pattern is not synonymous with prescription. Pulsar signals are not meaningful messages. Wave-induced redundant patterns in the bay-shore sand serve no unique prescriptive function. They simply reflect redundant, unimaginative physicodynamic interaction, such as the moon’s gravitational force on bodies of water. Complexity has little to do with PI. Much confusion results from not leaving behind pervasive faulty concepts of "information," with all of their illegitimate epistemological definitions and measurements, and concentrating on the ontological Prescription Principle. >> Dr Selenski, thanks for the late Christmas present!kairosfocus
March 31, 2015
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niwrad: What to say. Only one thing. If in the ID army the “friend-fire” is at this level, it is unlikely this army will win the war.
Friendly fire? Like using misleading and archaic definitions of the 2nd law entropy to defend ID? Like saying "entropy is disorder"? How much of the "entropy is disorder" arguments have been put forward by IDists promoting "2LOT must be used to defend ID"? Bear in mind: http://entropysite.oxy.edu/
“Entropy is disorder” is an archaic, misleading definition of entropy dating from the late 19th century before knowledge of molecular behavior, of quantum mechanics and molecular energy levels, or of the Third Law of thermodynamics. It seriously misleads beginning students, partly because “disorder” is a common word, partly because it has no scientific meaning in terms of energy or energy dispersal. Ten examples conclusively demonstrate the inadequacy of “disorder” in general chemistry.
Who has been the one misleading and polluting the minds of pro-ID chemistry, physics, and engineering students with "entropy is disorder"? Not me. :-) Note:
The 36 Science Textbooks That Have Deleted “disorder” From Their Description of the Nature of Entropy (As advocated in the publications of Dr. Frank L. Lambert, Professor Emeritus, Chemistry, Occidental College.)
I see several IDists sticking to their guns with "entropy is disorder". Why does a functioning 747 have millions of times more entropy than a crumpled junk piece of foil if "entropy is disorder"? Why must design space entropy INCREASE (Dembski, NFL page 131) for design complexity to increase if "entropy is disorder"? Answer: entropy is not disorder, it is only occasionally correlated with it.
Evolutionists laugh.
A few IDists laugh at 2LOT arguments (or should I say roll their eyes), they just don't say anything publicly. Why should they?scordova
March 31, 2015
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EugeneS: The toolkit of thermodynamics, albeit perfectly valid, is not capable of grasping that distinction between organization and order, which you keep avoiding. It is not the right level of modeling. The toolkit of thermodynamics ... is not capable of grasping the distinction between organization and order.... It is not the right level of modeling.Zachriel
March 31, 2015
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fmm
Evolution did not make that specific result more likely. Another result would have been just as likely.
that would be true within the limits of historical contingency of the bacterial genome in question.franklin
March 31, 2015
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Zachriel, I encourage you to carefully investigate what your evidence really shows. Nobody argues that intelligent causation leads to physical realizations that ultimately and invariably should conform to the second law. That is beside the point. The case in point is that certain types of 'pattern' i.e. organized systems can only come about in practice as a result of intelligent causation. Massive observation exists to support it. The toolkit of thermodynamics, albeit perfectly valid, is not capable of grasping that distinction between organization and order, which you keep avoiding. It is not the right level of modeling. That's all.EugeneS
March 31, 2015
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joe
There is no granting for argument the development of the IC aerobic citrate transport system’s evolution in this bacterial strain since it is a clear result of this experiment with the evolutionary pathway clearly delineated. It isn’t IC and no one can say if blind and undirected processes produced it.
Pf the evolved aerobic citrate transport system is not IC then you should have no problem telling us which parts of the system may be removed and the aerobic transport of citrate remains functional. Will you do that for us joe? The mutational pathway taken in this expt. is clearly documented so please describe for us, joe, the statistical methodology that ID uses to determine if the pattern fits a 'blind or unblinded' process. REcall that every nucleotide base, in this strain of bacteria, has been mutated at least once in this expt.franklin
March 31, 2015
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