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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
Is this really what you’ve been reduced to? My question stipulated that the Demon was invisible to the observer.
In that particular experiment, David Leigh was one of the observers. I'm not sure what you mean: that he's got no mirror in his bathroom, or what? Anyway, the "molecular demon" (or "information ratchet") was powered by light impulses, not telepathically by Professor Leigh's mental processes. Leigh and the rest of his team might as well have left the room and let the experiment run without human agents as they finished their coffees and exported entropy (thanks, Zachriel). The ratchet would have kept doing its thing notwithstanding.Piotr
April 7, 2015
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Zac says, The demon that requires no energy and doesn’t irreversibly destroy information doesn’t exist. I say, Once again assuming Materialism from the get go. This is so sad. Your side is so shackled by presuppositions you can't even engage in speculation about the existence of the non-materieal in a thought experiment. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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The whole point of MD is that there is no natural flow of energy in the experiment to tap into . The box is at equilibrium/maximum entropy when the Demon gets to work.
In that case the demon just won't work. OK, he may have its own internal source of energy, but if so, the box is not at equilibrium: the demon sits inside the box and is part of the system! The more gas it has to segregate, the more energy it will need (and the more of it will be converted into heat). It won't avoid detection by a careful observer.Piotr
April 7, 2015
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Piotr: he goes to the lavat’ry like the rest of us. Ahem. In polite company we say he is exporting entropy.Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: The box is at equilibrium/maximum entropy when the Demon gets to work. The demon is a thought-experiment. The demon that requires no energy and doesn't irreversibly destroy information doesn't exist. Leigh's experiment shows you how it might work in the real world. It's powered by light. So is Æolus.Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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Piotr says, Professor Leigh is fully visible. I say, Is this really what you've been reduced to? My question stipulated that the Demon was invisible to the observer. I would like to have a discussion is anyone on your side capable? peacefifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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Piotr says, The whole thing has nothing to do with intelligence, since an unintelligent process can do the same thing (divert part of a natural flow of energy to do work, reducing entropy locally but increasing it globally). I say. The whole point of MD is that there is no natural flow of energy in the experiment to tap into . The box is at equilibrium/maximum entropy when the Demon gets to work. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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fifth:
The unseen intelligent agent in this case is of course Leigh.
Professor Leigh is fully visible. You can see him here: http://www.catenane.net/pages/profbio.html He doesn't defy the 2LoT himself. He breathes, he drinks, he eats his lunch, he goes to the lavat'ry like the rest of us.Piotr
April 7, 2015
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Box: “Weather organizes” doesn’t make sense in any world view. Are you nitpicking about a figure of speech, or did you have a substantive point? NASA: "A supercell is a long-lived and highly organized storm"Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: The unseen intelligent agent in this case is of course Leigh. There are natural sorting mechanisms. In any case, the demon requires energy, so your #2 is wrong. fifthmonarchyman: Again with the storms. You're the one who brought up sorting. Storms are the result of natural sorting. Could an observer justifiably infer from the decrease in thermodynamic entropy in a storm that an unseen intelligent agent (Æolus) was somehow at work? fifthmonarchyman: Please take a deep breath and review the lessons on specification. Maxwell's demon sorts high and low energy particles.Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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Zach: Weather organizes regions of low entropy.
I know full well that materialists have insurmountable problems accommodating agency, but that doesn't mean that therefor anything goes. "Weather organizes" doesn't make sense in any world view.Box
April 7, 2015
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Zac says, Leigh’s demon is a simple mechanism, not a sentient organism. It’s powered by light. I say, The unseen intelligent agent in this case is of course Leigh. That you didn't immediately get that is very telling. Zac says, Weather organizes regions of low entropy. I say, Again with the storms. Have you learned nothing grasshopper? Please take a deep breath and review the lessons on specification. Come back when you are ready to be serious. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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#483 fifth, You ought to use the subjunctive mood when speaking of Maxwell's demon, since MD is only a thought experiment, not an actual agent. But anyway: (1) MD would not violate the 2LoT if it had a source of energy allowing it to do work (to segregate the molecules) and an entropy sink (in accordance with the 2LoT, doing work demands generating more entropy than you lower locally). (2) If MD, even one not directly visible to an outside observer, consumed energy and produced entropy, this would be detectable in the total thermodynamic balance of the system, so it wouldn't look like a violation of the 2LoT. (3) The whole thing has nothing to do with intelligence, since an unintelligent process can do the same thing (divert part of a natural flow of energy to do work, reducing entropy locally but increasing it globally).Piotr
April 7, 2015
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Upright BiPed: Which is why the question wasn’t relevant to the conversation, and not worth answering. The thread is about the "compensation argument", and the specific topic was organization due to organic growth, so of course it's relevant. Furthermore, the question entailed a fallacious understanding. Metabolism, and therefore growth, are not independent of the flow of entropy, but depend upon it. fifthmonarchyman: 2)Assuming the demon is invisible to an outside observer does it appear that the second law has been violated? the answer is of course yes The answer is no. Any real demon must have a source of power. http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070129/full/news070129-10.html fifthmonarchyman: 3)Could an observer justifiably infer from the decrease in entropy in the box that an unseen intelligent agent (the demon) was some how at work? Leigh's demon is a simple mechanism, not a sentient organism. It's powered by light. fifthmonarchyman: Of course the motivation is to show that the second law applies to macrostates (things) in the same way it applies to microstates (their parts). Weather organizes regions of low entropy. Could an observer justifiably infer from the decrease in entropy that an unseen intelligent agent (Æolus) was somehow at work?Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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phoenix says, Fifthmonarchyman is arguing that things and their parts are simultaneously “ultimate”. How he thinks this relates to the 2LoT is unclear; I say, Of course the motivation is to show that the second law applies to macrostates (things) in the same way it applies to microstates (their parts). It's the bottom up bias of materialism that causes this realization to be missed. That is why we end up talking past each other. Peacefifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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Phoenix, Perhaps the best way to answer your questions is to ask some more. 1) Does Maxwell's demon violate the second law? The answer of course is no 2)Assuming the demon is invisible to an outside observer does it appear that the second law has been violated? the answer is of course yes 3)Therefore could an observer justifiably infer from the decrease in entropy in the box that an unseen intelligent agent (the demon) was some how at work? I'll let you answer that one.fifthmonarchyman
April 7, 2015
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Upright BiPed: I’d ask if you understood that you can’t organize an organism without a local independence from the second law? Zachriel: Metabolism and growth are dependent on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, not independent of it.
Which is why the question wasn't relevant to the conversation, and not worth answering.Upright BiPed
April 7, 2015
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Upright BiPed: I’d ask if you understood that you can’t organize an organism without a local independence from the second law? Metabolism and growth are dependent on the 2nd law of thermodynamics, not independent of it. Box: Does DC constitute a violation of UC No.Zachriel
April 7, 2015
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We must either assume the reality of an organism, which implies real top-down causal power – downward causation (DC), or plunge into absurdity, like materialists do; see #399. DC can either originate from the organism as a whole or from an intelligent source external to the organism. The second law is about causes which flow from the bottom to the top – upward causation (UC).
Phoenix: Does life violate the second law? Yes or no?
Allow me to rephrase the question: "does DC violate UC"? Suppose that these words and sentences convey meaning that originates top-down from my intelligence. Here the presence of DC is obvious, however it’s equally obvious that the typing of these words and sentences involve physical interactions, therefore UC is involved as well. Notice that the hierarchy between DC and UC is very clear. My intuition informs me that this hierarchal relationship is typical during life, perhaps with the exception of periods of sickness. What we typically see in life is DC able to steer UC at will within rather flexible boundaries – often seemingly ever receding, but at the end of our earthly existence impenetrable. Does DC constitute a violation of UC – and by implication the 2nd law? You tell me. If a violation of the principle of causal closure implies a violation of the 2nd law, then yes, the 2nd law is being violated by DC. Remember though that, as has been pointed out, causal closure – all causes flow from the bottom to the top – plunges us into absurdity.Box
April 7, 2015
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Phoenix aka KeithS I know you think you're right and let us suppose for a minute you are, what does it mean in the greater scheme of things? If we have no souls and there is nothing worth saving what exactly is your efforts trying to achieve? Save us? and then I ask save us from what? No there is something else going on here, and I'll lay it out stop me when I'm wrong. You are here because you are lonely, the reason you're lonely is because even though you're in your own mind a really nice and good person, people just don't seem to understand you. But if your mind can not be trusted and if your view is actually true then maybe you're not really a nice guy because they don't really exist and maybe that's why you have people in the real world avoid you too. You find solace here because at least people talk to you, why else would you keep returning?Andre
April 7, 2015
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F/N, FTR: Phoenix continues to distort the truth, exposing attitude and agenda. I clip again [3rd time[, for reference to demonstrate that he has artfully demanded Y/N answers to deliberately ambiguous and loaded qs then has caricatured reasonable answers on the merits. Yes, much more than taunting is going on here, this is willful speaking in disregard to truth to poison the atmosphere . . . an all too common tactic used by too many objectors to design thought: ______________ >> Pardon but your continued willful caricature -- in the teeth of my specifically pointing out the problems with your loaded, stereotyping questions AND giving point by point answers at 444 above -- shows bad faith on your part. Not a great surprise at this point. I repeat my answer at that time: ______________ >> Your deliberate ambiguity of questions lies exposed, which is sadly typical:
>>1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no?>> a: “Evolution” is hopelessly ambiguous, as long since pointed out. b: As already stated and willfully ignored in haste to erect loaded strawman caricatures, microevolution mostly by loss of information is trivial and within islands of function of existing organisms and body plans. Such changes are not an issue. As you know or should. c: Macro level, body-plan origin by means of design would not be an issue, as stated. d: Blind watchmaker origin of novel body plans has no observed adequate cause and would demand creation of information from noise. e: The issue here is then not the Clausius statement ds >/= 0, but as has been explained but repeatedly willfully ignored, the statistical underpinnings that have been integral to the classical result for 100+ years. f: To expect the constructive work to be carried out to generate required FSCO/I without a credible information source expects in effect molecular noise to synthesise complex, functionally specific organisation and information. For which there is no vera causa. g: Even the ordering of the questions is loaded, by holding back the pivotal case, OOL. >>2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no?>> h: Again willfully ambiguous so a direct Y/N cannot reasonably be expected — a typical dirty rhetorical trick. Origin of life by design would involve relevant energy, mass and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. Such is no more a problem for classical and statistical thermodynamics than general technologies are. i: The various ideologically loaded blind watchmaker thesis narratives first utterly lack adequate cause of the FSCO/I required, and should not even be considered as serious science until they pass the vera causa test. j: Such narratives lack an account of relevant mass, energy and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. k: Lacking energy converters, there is a want of ability to credibly take in energy, create shaft work or relevant organised flows, and to exhaust degraded heat. Thus, there is skirting of the perpetuum mobile, 2nd kind. l: So too, here we see starkly exposed the notion of using irrelevant energy flows in absence of coupling and prescriptive information, to try to suggest that blind watchmaker thesis OOL does not face serious problems with the underlying molecular statistics and factors to create molecular nanotech of life. m: The only credible, empirically warranted source of such molecular scale FSCO/I, is intelligently directed configuration. >>3. Does life violate the second law? Yes or no?>> n: The very suggestion loaded into this question erects a strawman caricature in disregard to truth. o: Has any serious person, anywhere, suggested that bio forms of life violate 2 LOT and/or implications of the underlying molecular statistics? Patently, not. p: On the contrary, life forms exhibit the pattern I have pointed out dozens of times, of relevant mass, energy and information flows, coupled to energy converters and constructors, starting from in the living cell. q: Repeatedly, I have highlighted protein synthesis as a capital case in point. It is only by willful ignoring of what has been put on the table that you have been able to continue with deliberately ambiguous and loaded questions. r: Thus, revealing the underlying amoral agenda of might and manipulation making “right” occasioned by the fatal moral hazard in evolutionary materialism as an ideology and in all fellow traveller systems that seek to accommodate it. As, Plato warned against so long ago.
So, by insistently refusing to address what is on the table in terms of the merits, but instead insisting on loaded and deliberately ambiguous questions, there is a patent intent on your part to twist, caricature and attack the man rather than deal with the issue. Let me therefore pause and cite Thaxton et al from TMLO, ch 7, 1984, to show that from the foundations of the modern design movement in science, there has been a due appreciation of the issue:
While the maintenance of living systems is easily rationalized in terms of thermodynamics, the origin of such living systems is quite another matter. Though the earth is open to energy flow from the sun, the means of converting this energy into the necessary work to build up living systems from simple precursors remains at present unspecified (see equation 7-17). The “evolution” from biomonomers of to fully functioning cells is the issue. Can one make the incredible jump in energy and organization from raw material and raw energy, apart from some means of directing the energy flow through the system? [--> Thus, coupling of relevant energy, mass and info flows to converters and constructors, with exhausting of degraded energy and waste matter as direct implications] In Chapters 8 and 9 we will consider this question, limiting our discussion to two small but crucial steps in the proposed evolutionary scheme namely, the formation of protein and DNA from their precursors. It is widely agreed that both protein and DNA are essential for living systems and indispensable components of every living cell today.11 Yet they are only produced by living cells. Both types of molecules are much more energy and information rich than the biomonomers from which they form. Can one reasonably predict their occurrence given the necessary biomonomers and an energy source? Has this been verified experimentally? [--> without directing prescriptive information guiding a constructor subsystem driven by an energy conversion subsystem] These questions will be considered [--> and the answers were that the blind watchmaker thesis was not credible, on analysis, analysis that has been extended and developed, shifting focus to the directly linked information view, and the warranted answer remains the same] . . .
(And of course, onlookers, I have clipped my longstanding citation in my always linked note App I on thermodynamics, stat thermo-d and linked information issues.) >> ________________ I am confident no fair person can deny that I have adequately answered to the merits; but you have continued with drumbeat repetition of an ad hominem loaded strawman caricature as that suits your attitude and rhetorical agenda. It also reflects the underlying moral hazard of evolutionary materialism, which is amoral as it has no IS capable of bearing OUGHT, and by extension, of fellow-traveller ideologies that by accommodating it, fall into the same trap of opening the door to and/or enabling outright ruthless, cynically manipulative "might and manipulation make 'right,' truth,' science, etc." nihilism. KF PS: Plato's warning from 2350 years ago, that still speaks so aptly in advising us regarding evolutionary materialist factionists and their enabling fellow travellers:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them.
We have been warned, 2350 years ago. >> ______________ And of course such stunts distract attention from the substantial issues. Which must mean that the issue on the merits is not going where such want to. No credible a/c on how irrelevant energy flows "compensate" for origin of FSCO/I at OOL, no account of how such help create complex prescriptive info out of lucky noise and culling on reproductive success to build novel body plans. No observation of causal adequacy of irrelevant energy flows and want of adequate source of complex prescriptive info to create energy converters and constructors relevant to life out of lucky noise, or to find islands of function required for novel body plans. Until vera causa is shown, we should not take irrelevant energy flow compensation arguments seriously. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2015
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Testing...1..2..3 Barry,
phoenix, if all you can do is taunt other commenters, you will be shown the exit PDQ. Only warning.
Are you kidding? There's a lot more than mere taunting going on here. Have you read the thread? In response to criticisms, Niwrad is trying to come up with a workable statement of his "second law of organization". I've pointed out that his latest version has two unmeasurables in it -- 'organization' and 'organizational potency' -- and that without the ability to measure those rigorously, he will be unable to establish his 'law' as a true law. With Box, the conversation has progressed to the point where he is now on record saying that the particles within an organism do not obey the second law:
If an organism has no existence in and of itself – no causal powers in and of itself – why then don’t the particles, which constitute the organism, act in accordance to the 2nd law, as they do at the moment of death and thereafter? What force prevents the particles in motion from doing what comes natural?
Fifthmonarchyman is arguing that things and their parts are simultaneously "ultimate". How he thinks this relates to the 2LoT is unclear; perhaps he will follow Box in claiming that the 2LoT is suspended inside organisms. In any case, I am pointing out that his position is incoherent. And of course KF and UB are reluctant to state a position on the 2LoT question, lest they be required to defend it. I suspect you hear a lot from a particular commenter who doesn't like open dialogue, but don't forget about the other commenters who actually want to engage with the critics and see if their ideas will survive critical scrutiny.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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UB, I find the domain CC dot com is problematic just now. Could you PM me by email? KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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#472 It neither takes courage nor displays courage to answer your entirely inept question about metabolism. The issue here is the origin of the organization and prescriptive control that is the bedrock of biology -- and the only challenge to courage here is if you have enough to answer my question, since it is the only one between us that is germane to the topic at hand. Enjoy your nap.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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09:07 PM
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Phoenix, Pardon but your continued willful caricature -- in the teeth of my specifically pointing out the problems with your loaded, stereotyping questions AND giving point by point answers at 444 above -- shows bad faith on your part. Not a great surprise at this point. I repeat my answer at that time: ______________ >> Your deliberate ambiguity of questions lies exposed, which is sadly typical:
>>1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no?>> a: “Evolution” is hopelessly ambiguous, as long since pointed out. b: As already stated and willfully ignored in haste to erect loaded strawman caricatures, microevolution mostly by loss of information is trivial and within islands of function of existing organisms and body plans. Such changes are not an issue. As you know or should. c: Macro level, body-plan origin by means of design would not be an issue, as stated. d: Blind watchmaker origin of novel body plans has no observed adequate cause and would demand creation of information from noise. e: The issue here is then not the Clausius statement ds >/= 0, but as has been explained but repeatedly willfully ignored, the statistical underpinnings that have been integral to the classical result for 100+ years. f: To expect the constructive work to be carried out to generate required FSCO/I without a credible information source expects in effect molecular noise to synthesise complex, functionally specific organisation and information. For which there is no vera causa. g: Even the ordering of the questions is loaded, by holding back the pivotal case, OOL. >>2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no?>> h: Again willfully ambiguous so a direct Y/N cannot reasonably be expected — a typical dirty rhetorical trick. Origin of life by design would involve relevant energy, mass and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. Such is no more a problem for classical and statistical thermodynamics than general technologies are. i: The various ideologically loaded blind watchmaker thesis narratives first utterly lack adequate cause of the FSCO/I required, and should not even be considered as serious science until they pass the vera causa test. j: Such narratives lack an account of relevant mass, energy and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. k: Lacking energy converters, there is a want of ability to credibly take in energy, create shaft work or relevant organised flows, and to exhaust degraded heat. Thus, there is skirting of the perpetuum mobile, 2nd kind. l: So too, here we see starkly exposed the notion of using irrelevant energy flows in absence of coupling and prescriptive information, to try to suggest that blind watchmaker thesis OOL does not face serious problems with the underlying molecular statistics and factors to create molecular nanotech of life. m: The only credible, empirically warranted source of such molecular scale FSCO/I, is intelligently directed configuration. >>3. Does life violate the second law? Yes or no?>> n: The very suggestion loaded into this question erects a strawman caricature in disregard to truth. o: Has any serious person, anywhere, suggested that bio forms of life violate 2 LOT and/or implications of the underlying molecular statistics? Patently, not. p: On the contrary, life forms exhibit the pattern I have pointed out dozens of times, of relevant mass, energy and information flows, coupled to energy converters and constructors, starting from in the living cell. q: Repeatedly, I have highlighted protein synthesis as a capital case in point. It is only by willful ignoring of what has been put on the table that you have been able to continue with deliberately ambiguous and loaded questions. r: Thus, revealing the underlying amoral agenda of might and manipulation making “right” occasioned by the fatal moral hazard in evolutionary materialism as an ideology and in all fellow traveller systems that seek to accommodate it. As, Plato warned against so long ago.
So, by insistently refusing to address what is on the table in terms of the merits, but instead insisting on loaded and deliberately ambiguous questions, there is a patent intent on your part to twist, caricature and attack the man rather than deal with the issue. Let me therefore pause and cite Thaxton et al from TMLO, ch 7, 1984, to show that from the foundations of the modern design movement in science, there has been a due appreciation of the issue:
While the maintenance of living systems is easily rationalized in terms of thermodynamics, the origin of such living systems is quite another matter. Though the earth is open to energy flow from the sun, the means of converting this energy into the necessary work to build up living systems from simple precursors remains at present unspecified (see equation 7-17). The “evolution” from biomonomers of to fully functioning cells is the issue. Can one make the incredible jump in energy and organization from raw material and raw energy, apart from some means of directing the energy flow through the system? [--> Thus, coupling of relevant energy, mass and info flows to converters and constructors, with exhausting of degraded energy and waste matter as direct implications] In Chapters 8 and 9 we will consider this question, limiting our discussion to two small but crucial steps in the proposed evolutionary scheme namely, the formation of protein and DNA from their precursors. It is widely agreed that both protein and DNA are essential for living systems and indispensable components of every living cell today.11 Yet they are only produced by living cells. Both types of molecules are much more energy and information rich than the biomonomers from which they form. Can one reasonably predict their occurrence given the necessary biomonomers and an energy source? Has this been verified experimentally? [--> without directing prescriptive information guiding a constructor subsystem driven by an energy conversion subsystem] These questions will be considered [--> and the answers were that the blind watchmaker thesis was not credible, on analysis, analysis that has been extended and developed, shifting focus to the directly linked information view, and the warranted answer remains the same] . . .
(And of course, onlookers, I have clipped my longstanding citation in my always linked note App I on thermodynamics, stat thermo-d and linked information issues.) >> ________________ I am confident no fair person can deny that I have adequately answered to the merits; but you have continued with drumbeat repetition of an ad hominem loaded strawman caricature as that suits your attitude and rhetorical agenda. It also reflects the underlying moral hazard of evolutionary materialism, which is amoral as it has no IS capable of bearing OUGHT, and by extension, of fellow-traveller ideologies that by accommodating it, fall into the same trap of opening the door to and/or enabling outright ruthless, cynically manipulative "might and manipulation make 'right,' truth,' science, etc." nihilism. KF PS: Plato's warning from 2350 years ago, that still speaks so aptly in advising us regarding evolutionary materialist factionists and their enabling fellow travellers:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin")], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse], and not in legal subjection to them.
We have been warned, 2350 years ago.kairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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08:54 PM
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phoenix, if all you can do is taunt other commenters, you will be shown the exit PDQ. Only warning.Barry Arrington
April 6, 2015
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08:51 PM
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Upright, Wake me up if you muster the courage to answer my question:
Do you understand that organisms do not violate the second law?
In the meantime, I'm happy to carry on the conversation with your braver comrades.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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08:24 PM
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It betrays a deep need on your part to conclude that the local independence from the second law required to organize a living organism is (somehow) unimportant in a conversation about the relationship of the second law to living organisms. As I said, no one can make you actually want to understand. You are free to have it your way.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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08:11 PM
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No, Upright, the difference is that I am sticking to the topic of the thread, while you, to no one's surprise, are trying to avoid it.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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07:53 PM
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CJY, if you sent me something, I didn't receive it.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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07:47 PM
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