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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
The distinction between us is that you are merely looking for a soundbite, while I'm trying to give you something to help you actually understand the issue. It's hardly surprising that you ignore the opportunity. No one can make you want to understand. You either do or you don't. cheersUpright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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Upright, Seriously? You're going to chicken out, too? Well, at least KF will have some company in the bunker.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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kairosfocus:
Phoenix: Your deliberate ambiguity of questions lies exposed, which is sadly typical:
Right. Just look at how ambiguous my questions are:
1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no? 2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no? 3. Does life violate the second law? Yes or no? Once you’ve actually answered the questions, feel free to justify and elaborate on your answers.
You crack me up, KF. I'll bet the onlookers are laughing, too.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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#463 I'd ask if you understood that you can't organize an organism without a local independence from the second law? Do you?Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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niwrad:
In a tree (as any organism) the organization is injected in the seed as a potentiality which will be developing and operating during all its living and growing.
phoenix:
OK, so now you’re saying that ‘organization’ doesn’t have to be injected after all. It can arise spontaneously in a system that has the necessary ‘potentiality’. Could you revise and restate your proposed second law of organization?
niwrad:
No. Organization does have to be injected and does not spontaneously arise in a system lacking the necessary organizational potency.
Now you're saying that 'organizational potency' is the same thing as 'organization'. It clearly isn't. For instance, it's obvious that the tree does organize air, water, and mineral molecules into branches and leaves. Your second law of 'organization' therefore needs to be revised to account for 'organizational potency'. Good luck measuring either of those, by the way. If you can't measure them, how do you propose to establish your law?
Think of an egg, e.g. a crocodile egg. Why a crocodile egg outputs a crocodile, not a cat?
Why is a Fly not a Horse? :-)phoenix
April 6, 2015
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Upright #441, Still trying to change the subject to semiosis, I see. However, the rest of us are talking about the second law. How would you answer the question I posed to Box?
Do you understand that organisms do not violate the second law?
phoenix
April 6, 2015
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niwrad says computing has a cost ----- “ordo” needed “chao” to create the world Logos made flesh to be known by us I say That is Deep stuff. Incarnation is the central point of it all. The one fact on which the entire universe hangs. That post made this entire thread worth it. Thank you Peacefifthmonarchyman
April 6, 2015
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Crap, just had a loss of my last comment. scordova, just to let you know I understand the nuances and consequences of this argument. I am a naturalist: no interventions for me, evolution all the way, some type of abiogenesis had to have occurred. I disagree that there are fundamental differences between the ID measures of information. I'll write up an explanation again (just lost the last one) with my next post. I do agree that the LLN is a good place to start a design argument. It does a good job addressing chance and law (except for long ordered patterns such as crystals and pulsars if I am interpreting your application of LLN correctly) and helping to provide a probability or an information measure. But as far as connecting the design to intelligence, as in why should we invoke intelligence, we need to go further than merely inference (which again is good for a start) or the position that intelligence is all that is left from the available options (a horrible passive rather than active argument IMHO). We need to see the connection between intelligence and its design, and we may be able to do that through a discussion of energy flow, organized systems, and 2LOT.CJYman
April 6, 2015
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Where does everyone stand re: the compensation argument?
Anti-compensation is not a good defense for ID. LLN and its corollaries are a superior way to frame the probability arguments. For biological complexity, at issue is whether something like a complex algorithmic metabolism (aka living organism) is the expected outcome on a pre-biotic Earth. Our knowledge of chemistry and physics and cybernetics says "no". The expected outcome is non-life. I think that is a perfectly scientific claim. Whatever the reason that biological organisms emerged outside of expectation may be open to debate, possibly outside of science, but the assertion that biological organisms are a phenomenon far outside of expectation should be scientifically defensible. Systems with so many steps involved in functionality are clearly a low multiplicity configuration in design space, but I don't think it is wise to conflate design space multiplicity and entropy and probability with traditional notions of thermodynamic multiplicity and entropy and probability. There is a very strong connection of thermodynamic entropy with temperature, and by way of contrast I don't see design space entropies connected to temperature, thus 2LOT seems the wrong tool to argue for improbability. It should be instructive to again repeat the most widely accepted statement of the 2nd Law: CLAUSIUS STATEMENT:
Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time
This seems to me too much a stretch to argue for the improbability of biological evolution from ordinary processes. The right tool to argue for improbability is LLN, it has always been LLN, not 2LOT. I suppose one could create an anti-compensation argument using LLN. That would be more palatable. Here is the LLN
sample average converges in probability towards the expected value
As far as biological evolution, one could apply LLN and say, "non-life ordinarily converges on the expected outcome of non-life". The implication therefore is something far out of the ordinary created life.
Will merely opening up a system’s boundaries to heat flow cause all improbable things to become more probable?
No.scordova
April 6, 2015
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#457 CJYman, Probability is not an inherent property of "things". It can be assigned to events that produce those things (and is the measure of the likeliness of their occurrence). It makes no sense to say that, say, the set of ten coins sitting heads up has the probability of 2^(-10). It does make sense to say that if the coins are fair, 2^(-10) is the probability of such a set being the outcome of a random toss (or a sequence of 10 independent tosses). If you toss coin 1 until you get heads, then do the same with coin 2 etc., the probability of ending up with HHHHHHHHHH is 1, not 2^(-10). If you don't know how an ordered arrangement has been produced, it's meaningless to talk about its probability. Likewise in biology. There is no such thing as the "probability of a protein", but it makes sense to speak about the probability of the protein being the outcome of a certain process. The same outcome may be produced in different ways, and its probability will vary accordingly.Piotr
April 6, 2015
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CJYman:
Where does everyone stand re: the compensation argument?
It's valid and inseparable from the 2LoT.
Will merely opening up a system’s boundaries to heat flow cause all improbable things to become more probable?
Of course not. Shining sunlight on a rock won't make it burst into song.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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Where does everyone stand re: the compensation argument? Will merely opening up a system's boundaries to heat flow cause all improbable things to become more probable?CJYman
April 6, 2015
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Zachriel, I will be back (hopefully soon) to respond to your last few comments to me and to continue the development of the argument at hand. I will be back to define organization and discuss the idea of "organizational tolerance" macrostates.CJYman
April 6, 2015
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scordova, I do really appreciate your constructive criticism. Unfortunately we have been talking past each other to a certain extent. I hope that my post #216 has cleared up some of the issues. Do you have any problems with that comment (other than the syllogism -- I just re-phrased it and posted to TLZ)CJYman
April 6, 2015
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I see you guys are just starting to get to the meat of the argument … the connection between 2LOT and intelligence. Simply, all organization requires the transfer of energy therefore there will be a connection between energy flow and organization.
It is more subtle than that. 2LOT does not preclude design type organization, it will however even preclude intelligent beings (except God) from intervening and allow a cold reservoir to dump net positive amount of heat to a hot reservoir. See: https://uncommondescent.com/physics/landmark-1929-physics-paper-on-the-decrease-of-entropy-in-a-thermodynamic-system-by-the-intervention-of-intelligent-beings/scordova
April 6, 2015
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Hi CJYman. A couple of months ago I let my gaurd down and allowed a back door open to get to my email on this site. The freindly people who come here managed to destroy the account within a few hours. Since then I have beefed up and hope to be able to handle the attacks. You can contact the "contact" at complexitycafe. That's a dot com. I look forward to hearing from you.Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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If configuration entropy is apparently violated, then statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated.
How can configuration entropy be violated? Entropy is a state function of a system. It's almost like saying "temperature is violated?". So then if we found 500 fair coins 100% heads, would we say 2LOT has been violated? Absolutely not. Granted 100% heads is a low multiplicity configuration for heads/tails, but I doubt there is a physicist in the world who'd say, "that's an example of 2LOT being violated" the only thing being violated would be the chance hypothesis since chance + LLN does not result in 100% heads. I should point out now, unfortunately there seems to be at least two notions of entropy floating around for IDists. 1. Bill Dembski/Shannon simple count of microstates, high complexity designs have HIGH entropy (number of design space bits) 2. Sewell/CJYman low multiplicity is low entropy, high complexity designs have LOW entropy since they have low multiplicity. This is NOT a good situation since the definitions of entropy are practically polar opposites in the ID community. So why go there? !!!! Basic probability and Law of Large numbers is good enough, clear, and unassailable. Look what happens when we steer clear of information theory, 2LOT and whatever else, and go back to basics: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-statistics-question-for-nick-matzke/ and https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/ssdd-a-22-sigma-event-is-consistent-with-the-physics-of-fair-coins/ and https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/jerads-dds-causes-him-to-succumb-to-millers-mendacity-and-other-errors/ and https://uncommondescent.com/humor/the-law-of-large-numbers-vs-keiths-eigenstate-my-tsz-critics/scordova
April 6, 2015
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Phoenix: "What does that mean? Entropy isn’t a law that can be violated." Pardon, I was going to fast. Thank you for holding me to the details. I have re-phrased my final syllogism for it to be more accurate in its wording. You can read it at TSZ.CJYman
April 6, 2015
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niwrad: to assembly a system needs energy/work That's right. niwrad: control on power needs power supply Not sure what you mean, other than the obvious tautology. CJYman: Simply, all organization requires the transfer of energy therefore there will be a connection between energy flow and organization. Simply, all disorganization requires the transfer of energy therefore there will be a connection between energy flow and disorganization.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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Upright Biped, is there a good way that I could contact you. Just want to run something by you re: organization & protocols.CJYman
April 6, 2015
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I see you guys are just starting to get to the meat of the argument ... the connection between 2LOT and intelligence. Simply, all organization requires the transfer of energy therefore there will be a connection between energy flow and organization.CJYman
April 6, 2015
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Zachriel
Any such injection requires the expenditure of energy available for work, of course.
Yes. Organization injection requires energy like: in the cosmos essence cannot exist without substance cosmological information requires a material carrier computing has a cost control on power needs power supply Maxwell demon cannot be ideal (therefore it cannot violate 2nd law) to assembly a system needs energy/work "ordo" needed "chao" to create the world Logos made flesh to be known by us ... I leave you to find other examples in other fields.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn’t prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source. Simply 2nd_law_SM states what is the spontaneous trend of isolated systems when no organization is injected.
An isolated biological system (one that can't exchange matter, work or heat with its surroundings) won't maintain its non-equilibrium dynamics for long, no matter how much organisation you "inject" into it. The 2LoT will take care of that. If you continue "injecting organisation", that presumably means a transfer of energy (and possibly of matter as well). Still, the entropy of the system must increase unless it can get rid of waste matter/heat. If you allow it to do so, you can no longer call it isolated.Piotr
April 6, 2015
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niwrad: Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn’t prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source. Any such injection requires the expenditure of energy available for work, of course. niwrad: So, if with “to violate” we mean “to suspend”, or something like that, my answer is “no”, intelligent interventions don’t violate/suspend the laws operating on matter. So, no. Intelligent intervention doesn’t violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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Phoenix: Your deliberate ambiguity of questions lies exposed, which is sadly typical:
>>1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no?>> a: "Evolution" is hopelessly ambiguous, as long since pointed out. b: As already stated and willfully ignored in haste to erect loaded strawman caricatures, microevolution mostly by loss of information is trivial and within islands of function of existing organisms and body plans. Such changes are not an issue. As you know or should. c: Macro level, body-plan origin by means of design would not be an issue, as stated. d: Blind watchmaker origin of novel body plans has no observed adequate cause and would demand creation of information from noise. e: The issue here is then not the Clausius statement ds>/= 0, but as has been explained but repeatedly willfully ignored, the statistical underpinnings that have been integral to the classical result for 100+ years. f: To expect the constructive work to be carried out to generate required FSCO/I without a credible information source expects in effect molecular noise to synthesise complex, functionally specific organisation and information. For which there is no vera causa. g: Even the ordering of the questions is loaded, by holding back the pivotal case, OOL. >>2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no?>> h: Again willfully ambiguous so a direct Y/N cannot reasonably be expected -- a typical dirty rhetorical trick. Origin of life by design would involve relevant energy, mass and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. Such is no more a problem for classical and statistical thermodynamics than general technologies are. i: The various ideologically loaded blind watchmaker thesis narratives first utterly lack adequate cause of the FSCO/I required, and should not even be considered as serious science until they pass the vera causa test. j: Such narratives lack an account of relevant mass, energy and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors with appropriate prescriptive information. k: Lacking energy converters, there is a want of ability to credibly take in energy, create shaft work or relevant organised flows, and to exhaust degraded heat. Thus, there is skirting of the perpetuum mobile, 2nd kind. l: So too, here we see starkly exposed the notion of using irrelevant energy flows in absence of coupling and prescriptive information, to try to suggest that blind watchmaker thesis OOL does not face serious problems with the underlying molecular statistics and factors to create molecular nanotech of life. m: The only credible, empirically warranted source of such molecular scale FSCO/I, is intelligently directed configuration. >>3. Does life violate the second law? Yes or no?>> n: The very suggestion loaded into this question erects a strawman caricature in disregard to truth. o: Has any serious person, anywhere, suggested that bio forms of life violate 2 LOT and/or implications of the underlying molecular statistics? Patently, not. p: On the contrary, life forms exhibit the pattern I have pointed out dozens of times, of relevant mass, energy and information flows, coupled to energy converters and constructors, starting from in the living cell. q: Repeatedly, I have highlighted protein synthesis as a capital case in point. It is only by willful ignoring of what has been put on the table that you have been able to continue with deliberately ambiguous and loaded questions. r: Thus, revealing the underlying amoral agenda of might and manipulation making "right" occasioned by the fatal moral hazard in evolutionary materialism as an ideology and in all fellow traveller systems that seek to accommodate it. As, Plato warned against so long ago.
So, by insistently refusing to address what is on the table in terms of the merits, but instead insisting on loaded and deliberately ambiguous questions, there is a patent intent on your part to twist, caricature and attack the man rather than deal with the issue. Let me therefore pause and cite Thaxton et al from TMLO, ch 7, 1984, to show that from the foundations of the modern design movement in science, there has been a due appreciation of the issue:
While the maintenance of living systems is easily rationalized in terms of thermodynamics, the origin of such living systems is quite another matter. Though the earth is open to energy flow from the sun, the means of converting this energy into the necessary work to build up living systems from simple precursors remains at present unspecified (see equation 7-17). The "evolution" from biomonomers of to fully functioning cells is the issue. Can one make the incredible jump in energy and organization from raw material and raw energy, apart from some means of directing the energy flow through the system? [--> Thus, coupling of relevant energy, mass and info flows to converters and constructors, with exhausting of degraded energy and waste matter as direct implications] In Chapters 8 and 9 we will consider this question, limiting our discussion to two small but crucial steps in the proposed evolutionary scheme namely, the formation of protein and DNA from their precursors. It is widely agreed that both protein and DNA are essential for living systems and indispensable components of every living cell today.11 Yet they are only produced by living cells. Both types of molecules are much more energy and information rich than the biomonomers from which they form. Can one reasonably predict their occurrence given the necessary biomonomers and an energy source? Has this been verified experimentally? [--> without directing prescriptive information guiding a constructor subsystem driven by an energy conversion subsystem] These questions will be considered [--> and the answers were that the blind watchmaker thesis was not credible, on analysis, analysis that has been extended and developed, shifting focus to the directly linked information view, and the warranted answer remains the same] . . .
(And of course, onlookers, I have clipped my longstanding citation in my always linked note App I on thermodynamics, stat thermo-d and linked information issues.) KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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How long have I been telling them they're parasites, WJM and Nirwad, particularly as regards QM, but really in terms of virtually the whole of science, pioneered as it has been, notably in the last century, entirely by believers in ID, ergo deists, at minimum. And among such parasites, that surely includes even Feynman. It seems interesting that he nevertheless remarked that nobody understood QM, in that it was, potentially, a curious admission, even if he later contradicted it, that scientism is a busted flush, and likely to remain so in perpetuity. He realised he didn't need to know the metaphysics to tackle the nitty-gritty of the subject with distinction. But where Planck, Bohr and to a lesser extent, Einstein were fascinated by the metaphysics, he and the general run of physicists, materialists, driven by fear, had evidently very quickly erected a barrier to contemplating head on, its implications. It is said that Einstein was wildly popular because he explained his extraordinary findings in simple terms, which journalists could retail to the public. And while that is no doubt partially true, I believe the public were particularly pleased that Einstein had shown up the 'everything from nothing', atheist monkeys for what they, indeed, are. Who could have guessed the materialists would cling so desperately to their scientism, as they have, right into the 21st century? As a footnote, it is hilarious to compare Wiktionary's relatively anodyne definition of 'scientism' with that of other ones, notably, the second definition in both Collins and Merriam Webster.Axel
April 6, 2015
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phoenix
OK, so now you’re saying that ‘organization’ doesn’t have to be injected after all.
No. Organization does have to be injected and does not spontaneously arise in a system lacking the necessary organizational potency. Think of an egg, e.g. a crocodile egg. Why a crocodile egg outputs a crocodile, not a cat? Because the egg contains in potency a crocodile. In computer terms, the bio-software in the egg was programmed to develop a crocodile, not a cat. This is what I called "cybernetic organizational frontloading." The concepts of "program source code" and "program output" may help to understand what potentiality is. The source code has the potentiality to produce the output. When its binary code runs on computer, the output is generated and the potentiality becomes actuality. The crocodile is born.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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Do you understand that organisms do not violate the second law?
Do you understand that you cannot organize an organism without a local independence from the second law? Why? Because add glycine next–add serine next–add aspartic acid next is not a temporal event that can be derived from matter. Hello? It must be brought into existence by a system, and that system (as a physical necessity) will have a natural discontinuity between its input and output. Don’t believe me? Then just try to duplicate the system without it. Good luck :|Upright BiPed
April 6, 2015
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WJM:
I’ve already made my suggestion here: https://uncommondescent.com.....ragmatism/
Which was promptly dismantled at TSZ.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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Piotr said:
They have practically stolen science from its rightful owners — is that what you mean?
Stolen and have turned into an ideological swamp of non-workable metaphysical expectations, yes.
Hey, WJM, why not show us how science should be practised?
I've already made my suggestion here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-about-methodological-pragmatism/
How do complex structures originate according to non-materialist, non-reductionist science?
I would suggest that an unlimited resource of functional information exists non-materially that is transferred into the physical world via an observing consciousness, automatically ordering (collapsing) quantum field substrates (potentials) in accordance with the information interacting with it. But that's just a suggestion; I don't know how one would go about scientifically testing such a theory. Perhaps BA77 has some research on the matter :)William J Murray
April 6, 2015
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