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Faith and Reason

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The comment threads to several recent posts have contained spirited discussions of faith, reason and the relationship between the two. This issue comes up quite often on this blog, so I decided it was time to devote a post to it. Many of the comments assume a dichotomy, namely that materialists operate solely within the sphere of reason, and theists operate solely within the sphere of faith. In this post I will demonstrate that this dichotomy is not only false, but obviously false. I will show that everyone operates in varying degrees in both spheres. I will then show that far from being a bastion of pure reason, materialism actually requires greater faith commitments than theism.

Everyone Has Faith.

Materialists can be insufferably smug when it comes to the faith/reason debate. They claim their knowledge is superior because they refuse to believe anything that cannot be confirmed by evidence. Therefore, the claim goes, their beliefs are more reliable than the beliefs of theists, whom, they say, base their beliefs on “leap in the dark” faith that is not confirmed by the evidence or, even worse flies in the face of the evidence. Just a moment’s thought will show, however, that not only is the materialist’s smug self-satisfaction unwarranted, his claim of epistemological superiority is obviously false. Materialists make leaps of faith just like the rest of us.

Materialist believe that a real world exists outside of themselves and that they have trustworthy perceptions of this real world from their senses. Surprise. Those two beliefs are not based upon any evidence. Materialists hold the beliefs based on pure faith, a frequently unacknowledged faith to be sure, but faith nevertheless. You might say, “That’s crazy talk Barry. Everyone knows the outside world exists and that we can perceive it through our senses.” Do we?

Philosophers have known for hundreds of years that data provided to us by sense impressions cannot be the basis of absolute knowledge. Renee Descartes, for example, famously demonstrated this with his “evil demon” thought experiment. In this experiment Descartes posited an evil demon “as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me.” The evil demon is so powerful he is capable of presenting an illusion of the entire world, including Descartes’ sense impressions of his own body, to Descartes’ mind. If such an evil demon actually existed, Descartes’ sense impressions would be misleading him, and the outside world, including Descartes’ own body, would not in fact exist even though Descartes’ sense impressions confirmed unequivocally that they did.

Here’s the fascinating part of the experiment. How do we know the evil demon does not exist? Answer. By definition, the data presented to our minds by our senses cannot demonstrate his non-existence. In fact, we cannot know with absolute certainty he does not exist. We take his non-existence purely as a matter of faith.

Or consider the movie “The Matrix.” Early on in the movie we learn the vast majority of humans live in containers filled with clear viscous goo, and all of their sense impressions of the world are fed directly to their brains by a massively powerful computer program. How do we know we do not actually live in the Matrix? Answer, just as we cannot prove the non-existence of Descartes’ evil demon, we cannot prove we are not in the Matrix.

Then there is the concept of the “Boltzman Brain,” which is a hypothetical brain that randomly forms out of the chaos of the universe with false memories of a life and false impressions of the world. Again, as a matter of pure logic, I cannot prove that I am not at this moment a Boltzman Brain.

All of these concepts are closely related and are perhaps epitomized by Bishop Berkeley’s idealism. Berkeley argued that we cannot really “know” an object outside of our mind, that the only reality we can really experience is our perception of things. Boswell records Dr. Johnson’s response to Berkeley:

After we came out of the church, we stood and spoke some time together of Bishop Berkeley’ sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it – ‘I refute it thus.’

This is is an amusing anecdote. We can imagine Johnson kicking the rock outside the church so hard that he bounced off of it. But consider this. Johnson most certainly did NOT refute Berkeley as a matter of pure logic. Boswell was correct. It is impossible to refute Berkeley’s idealism, just as it is impossible to refute Descartes’ demon, or the existence of the Matrix, or that at this moment I am a Boltzman Brain. The internal logic of these systems is seamless and flawless.

But in another very important sense Johnson did refute Berkeley. He refuted him as a practical matter. The point of Johnson’s exercise is that our senses are all we have. We have nothing else with which to perceive the universe, and, as a practical matter, we must rely on our senses or give up all hope of having any knowledge, even knowledge as basic as whether the large stone in front of me (and the foot I’m kicking it with) exists. We all have faith that the data related to us by our senses corresponds to an outside world that really exists and that can be apprehended by our senses.

In short, we are all rock kickers. Every materialist believes that when he kicks a large rock he has an actual foot with which he is kicking an actual rock. But as we have seen, the materialist must accept this conclusion as a matter of faith, not as a matter of pure reason based upon evidence.

Materialists’ faith commitments do not stop there. Consider the following statement: “The universe is subject to rationale inquiry.” This statement is a “rock kicking” statement. All scientific inquiry is based on the assumption that it is true. Nevertheless, the truth of the statement cannot be established to a logical certainty or confirmed absolutely by examination of physical evidence.

Finally, consider the very definitional presupposition of materialism, which can be reduced to the following statement: “The universe consists of space, matter and energy and nothing else.” Has this assertion been proven true? Not only has it not been proven to be true; it is incapable of such proof. The statement is what Karl Popper called a “universal statement,” of which he wrote in The Logic of Scientific Inquiry:

This is the reason why strictly existential statements are not falsifiable. We cannot search the whole world in order to establish that something does not exist [in our case, a non-material phenomenon], has never existed, and will never exist. It is for precisely the same reason that strictly universal statements are not verifiable. Again, we cannot search the whole world in order to make sure that nothing exists which the law forbids.

Do you mean to tell me that materialism is not in fact physical but metaphysical at its very foundation, and that the entire materialist enterprise rests on a faith commitment? Yes, that’s exactly what I mean to tell you, and we thus conclude that the materialist conceit that all of materialist knowledge is confirmed by evidence is not only false, but obviously false.

Reason has a limit, and at the end of reason are first principles, and first principles must be accepted on faith; they cannot be demonstrated. This is what C.S. Lewis meant when he wrote in The Abolition of Man:

But you cannot go on ‘explaining away’ for ever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on seeing through things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to ‘see through’ first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To ‘see through’ all things is the same as not to see.

Authentic Faith, For Both the Theist and the Materialist, is Consistent With Reason

Not only is the first materialist conceit – that they are immune to faith commitments –false, but their second conceit – that theists are immune to reason – is also false. Usually when a materialist argues against the epistemic status of faith, he does not argue against faith as most theists understand it and practice it. Instead, he erects the straw man of “fideism” and knocks it over, all the while pretending to have knocked over the real thing. “Fideism” is the blind leap in the dark even in the face of all of the evidence type of faith that the materialist so rightly deplores. But fideism is not the type of faith practiced by most theists. It is certainly not the faith of historic Christianity.

Authentic Christian faith is in fact faith; it is belief in something that cannot be proven absolutely by evidence. But it is not blind-leap-in-the-dark-in-the-face-of-the evidence fideism. Far from being a blind leap, authentic Christian faith is a reasoned faith. It does not fly in the face of the evidence; rather it goes one step further than the evidence. For example, Christians, by definition, believe in the existence of God. Is this belief a blind “the moon is made of green cheese” leap? Certainly not, because, in a manner of speaking, God’s existence has been proved.

Before I go on let me say a brief word about what it means to “prove” something. People mean many things when they use that word. There are many different “standards of proof.” One standard of proof is an “apodictic proof.” A is greater than B and B is greater than C. Therefore, A is greater than C. This conclusion is necessarily true as a matter of logical certainty. But there are other standards of proof, and unusually when we talk about something having been proved we mean some lesser standard than apodictic.

I am a lawyer, and when I take a case to trial my job is to “prove” my case to the jury. At the end of the evidence the judge will instruct the jury concerning the applicable burden of proof. In a civil case he will usually say I must have proved my case “by a preponderance of the evidence.” He will then tell the jury that to prove something by a preponderance of the evidence means to “prove that it is more probably true than not.” If it is a criminal case the judge will tell the jury the prosecution must have proved its case “beyond a reasonable doubt.” He will then explain that “reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.”

Certainly the existence of God has not been proven in the apodictic sense of the word, but it has been proven in every fair sense of the word “proven.” Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the proofs of the existence of God (the cosmological proof, the ontological proof, the teleological proof, the moral proof, etc.) here.

Consider just one of these many proofs, the cosmological proof. We know that every finite thing has a cause. No finite thing can cause itself. The chain of cause and effect cannot be infinitely long. Therefore, an uncaused first cause must exist, and that uncaused first cause is God.

Is the cosmological proof an example of blind leap in the dark faith? Look at each step in the chain of reasoning.

1. Every effect has a cause. Who could argue with that?
2. No effect causes itself. This seems inarguable as a logical matter.
3. The chain of cause and effect is not infinite. This seems consistent with what we know about the universe; big bang theory especially supports this conclusion.
4. Therefore, there must have been an uncaused first cause. The conclusion follows inexorably from perfectly reasonable premises.

Remember, the cosmological proof is only one of many reasonable proofs of the existence of God. I encourage you to examine it and the others in more detail. If you do, I believe you will find that God’s existence has been proved. By this I mean that the existence of God has been proved beyond any “doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence,” i.e., beyond a reasonable doubt. Certainly the evidence preponderates toward the existence of God.

This is not to say that there is no room for some doubt. When I go to trial my opponent puts on his evidence to counter mine. Similarly, many people believe that such things as the existence of evil or the suffering of innocents counts as evidence against the existence of God. It is beyond the scope of this post to answer these objections, but they have been answered.

More to the point of this post, the fact that many people believe there is evidence that points away from the existence of God does not undermine my original conclusion. Authentic Christian faith is not a leap in the dark. It is a rational faith based upon a reasoned consideration of the evidence.

Materialists often make the mistake of engaging in what I call “selective evidentialism.” Selective evidentialism is the practice of saying “unless I can touch it, see it, taste it, hear it or smell it, it must be the product of faith (the evidentialism part), but if it suits me I will accept its existence on faith (the selective part). Consider dark matter. The standard cosmological model rests on the assumption that 90% of the matter in the universe is “dark matter.” Yet no scientist has ever directly observed a single iota of the stuff. The existence of dark matter is rather inferred from certain gravitational effects on visible matter.

Isn’t this astounding! Scientists have so much faith (I use that word advisedly) in their observations, calculations and assumptions that they say that, for now at least, the existence of 90% of the matter in the universe must be accepted as a matter of faith based upon inferences. This is a reasoned faith, probably even a reasonable faith, but it is faith nevertheless. Moreover, there are competing explanations for the data that do not require dark matter. If these explanations turn out to be true, dark matter, like the ether of nineteenth century cosmology, will vanish in an instant.

What is so different about the materialist’s faith in the existence of dark matter and the Christian’s faith in the existence of God? Both beliefs are based upon a reasoned analysis of the evidence. Both beliefs are extensions from the known to the unknown. Both may be true or false.

The Materialists’ Faith Commitments Are More of a Leap in the Dark than the Theists’

In one of his debates with William Provine, Phil Johnson said, “I would love to be a Darwinist. I just can’t manage the faith commitments.”

Consider two instances of the materialist faith dilemma. First, how does the materialist answer the question: “Why is there something instead of nothing?” For the theist this is an easy question. God, the uncaused first cause, created all things that exist. But the materialist finds himself between the Scylla of an eternal universe and the Charybdis of a self-created universe. The eternal universe flies in the face of all we now know about the cosmos. There is practically universal agreement among cosmologists that the universe had a beginning. The self-created universe is a logical absurdity.

Secondly, consider biological origins. By definition the materialist must believe that particles of matter, starting as the detritus of the nuclear furnaces at the center of long burned out stars, organized themselves with absolutely no plan or guidance into first elements and then planets and then organic compounds and then into animals and plants and humans and computers and space stations. The phrase “mud to mind” does not even begin to encompass the absurdity of the proposition.

I call materialists’ belief in these two propositions “materialist fideism.” It really is amusing to listen to materialists blast leap-in-the-dark faith, when their faith commitments dwarf those of even the most fundamentalist believer.

Comments
Tom MH: Atticus: If you don't like the word law, then by all means, describe the phenomenon in another way. The point is, it can't come into existence on its own. The big bang was it's origin, whatever it is or whatever you want to call it. We now know for a fact that "it" wasn't always there. From a philsophical perspective, the cosmological argument still holds: we observe movement, we also observe that the movement is regular, we infer order from the regular movement, and we infer a designer from the order. Once again, hearken back to Aristotle and Aquinas. The law of "infinite regress" applies here. Once movement is observed, we are bound to reason back to the "prime mover." This cannot be ignored or dimissed.StephenB
July 18, 2008
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Atticus:
Nature “breaks the law” only because our explanations of observations are imperfect.
Correct. Violate civil law (as you are free to do) and you are potentially in trouble. Violate a "Law" of nature, and the LAW is in trouble. It might be better if we avoid the term "law" in favor of the more generic term "theory" (as long we as agree that we are speaking of a scientific theory, and not merely some hypothesis). (To be a scientific theory, it must have some explanatory power and the ability to make testable predictions.) We might also do well to keep in mind the inherent provisionality of theories, even the ones so well-endowed with evidence that the are honored with the mantle of "Law" (e.g. the Laws of Thermodynamics, or Newton's Laws of Motion [but note, his "Theory of Universal Gravitation" only gets to be a "theory"!]). And finally, we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming the theory is the thing itself. Theories have no reality, they are only mental constructs for what reality might be and how it might behave. Theories are created by humans. The evidence for or against them are not (or better darn well not be). That the universe appears to behave in testably predictable ways is an observation at least as old as history. If you wish to believe that it behaves that way because God wills it, so be it, but I do not think that is a logical fallout of a belief in God (who, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, could be guiding each and every particle and fluctuation). IOW a rational universe is an additional postulate you must make. And if you believe miracles occur, then in effect you believe that sometimes God chooses to change the rules, occasionally and in an unpredictable way (or else they'd be observable and testable phenomena). So that is yet ANOTHER commitment of faith.Tom MH
July 18, 2008
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To the extent that a law is present, a lawgiver is indicated.
Words have multiple senses. Running a computer is not the same as running a marathon. A scientific law is not the same as a civil law. A civil law is a decree. A scientific law is a human attempt to capture regularity in observations of nature. No scientific law accounts perfectly for observations. Shall we say that nature is breaking the law? Of course not. The fact that "law of nature" is merely a metaphor is evident when one considers that nature "breaks" to some degree every law "discovered" (concocted) by humankind. Nature "breaks the law" only because our explanations of observations are imperfect. A further complication is that our scientists have inferred multiple "laws" giving conflicting accounts of observations. William James made various insightful comments about this one hundred years ago. See Pluralism, Pragmatism, and Instrumental Truth.
What would be the alternative? To say that we know nothing at all about God’s creation? It is impossible to say whether we know anything about God's creation. We can talk about our explanations, and be be very honest about the fact that explanations are not revelations.Atticus Finch
July 18, 2008
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-----Atticus Finch: "Early scientists believed that God the Creator was also God the Lawgiver. When they came by a highly successful explanation of their observations of God’s creation, they assumed that they had discovered God’s law. The history of science tells us that the early scientists were naive. Early “laws” have been replaced by better explanations. Yet the use of law for an inferred principle persists." That may be so, but the broader point remains. To the extent that a law is present, a lawgiver is indicated. That a phenomenon can be explained in a better way does not change its reality or the fact that it points to order. -----"In my mind, it is blasphemous to go proclaiming that we have discovered the Laws by which God’s Creation abides when we have merely found ways of putting together a few pieces of a massive puzzle." What would be the alternative? To say that we know nothing at all about God's creation? Where did anyone say that science provides us with a complete account of the big picture? Should we discount what we do know on the grounds that don't know very much?StephenB
July 17, 2008
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M.Baldwin
July 17, 2008
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And we've barely started! (Curse you, blockquote truncation monster.)Daniel King
July 17, 2008
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In my mind, it is blasphemous to go proclaiming that we have discovered the Laws by which God’s Creation abides when we have merely found ways of putting together a few pieces of a massive puzzle. And we've barely started!Daniel King
July 17, 2008
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Why is it reasonable to propose a law without a lawmaker?
Early scientists believed that God the Creator was also God the Lawgiver. When they came by a highly successful explanation of their observations of God's creation, they assumed that they had discovered God's law. The history of science tells us that the early scientists were naive. Early "laws" have been replaced by better explanations. Yet the use of law for an inferred principle persists. In my mind, it is blasphemous to go proclaiming that we have discovered the Laws by which God's Creation abides when we have merely found ways of putting together a few pieces of a massive puzzle.Atticus Finch
July 17, 2008
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Tom MH: Thanks again for your thoughtful response. I think I understand where we agree and disagree. So, all I can say is, fair enough. Here is the part that I don’t understand, though. Why is it reasonable to propose a law without a lawmaker? In the same sense, why would anyone propose a painting without acknowledging the existence of the painter? Methodological naturalism, for example, insists the scientist should investigate the painting as if it wasn’t painted. The theist makes the reasonable inference about the existence of the first cause in both cases, reminiscent of Aristotle’s “prime mover.” What I understand you to be saying is that the materialist, by proposing that there is no lawmaker or no painter, is being just as reasonable as the theist who reasons back to a first cause. ----Also, you write, “You seem to be tying “design” and “law” together, or claiming that law is preceded by design, with God the agent behind both. (If that is the case, why not go for the trifecta, and make Him the agent behind chance as well…….”I do not see how it follows that IF a natural law governs some aspect of the natural world…, THEN that law must have a designer.” I would say that purpose or teleology underlies all of these things, though “chance” poses special problems, which is complicated enough to merit a separate discussion. (I reject the theistic evolutionists solution, which subjectivizes chance, and propose instead that the solution may be found in God’s ordained will vs. God’s permissive will. [But that is a long drawn out explanation]) However, the following sequence makes perfect sense to me: observe movement, observe the regularity of the movement, infer order from the observed regularity, and infer one who orders from the inferred order. Call it a Thomistic formulation. The explanatory filter does not go about things in exactly that way. It begins with a historical fact. Outside of law, chance, or intelligent agency, nothing else has ever been detected as an explanation for any event. That assumption could be wrong, of course, but it seems like a very good place to start because it goes all the way back to Plato and has never been shown to be false. To me, it seems like a much more dependable way of doing business than assuming, as materialist Darwinism does, that everything we know can be explained by law and chance. Indeed, we already know that this cannot be the case since we all think and make decisions, meaning that we ourselves are causal agents. The materialist, therefore, must take a giant leap of faith and deny the common sense conclusion that almost everyone arrives at, namely, that we all have a measure of free will. In spite of their public protests to the contrary, Darwinists must know deep down that we all think and make decisions. If it were not so, they would never try to persuade anyone about anything.StephenB
July 17, 2008
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Tom TH obviously a natural law is something that applies everywhere in the system then, yet we cannot (without invoking God, or Nature) know why it exists nor how it came into existence. In my last post I was actually trying to make the point that: from a materialistic viewpoint, the last authority more or less is "Nature" or the agnostic statement "We don't know all the bits and pieces yet!". e.g. “Nature produced Life! How? Probably through some evolutionary process, yet we don't have all the information to say for sure!" From a theist viewpoint the last authority is God e.g. "God created Life! How? We have a couple pointers Bible, Koran etc...! Thus, if you say that natural law is not invoking a designer, it invokes ever present Nature or an agnostic statement. How can there be a law without a lawmaker? Who is the lawmaker in your eyes?tb
July 17, 2008
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tb
It seems like it [law] is used when there is no explanation for a phenomenon!
Precisely the opposite! Science invokes a theory, or a law, or an equation, or a principle (it's not an orderly naming process) whenever it DOES discover an explanation. Newton's Three Laws of Motion are a perfect example of natural law. They are not "anybody", but they certainly seem to apply to "every thing". They are postulates, and form a Theory, but they work so well and so universally that Science honors them with the lofty title of "Law". Even Einstein's Relativity was never so honored. The question is, what do we do when there is NOT an explanation? The Explanatory Filter is certainly one attempt to answer that question. And note: the very first tap on the filter is "Law". HTH.Tom MH
July 17, 2008
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Tom NH what do you mean by "natural" law! I have long been pondering the mystic statements by Materialists! What do they mean when they say "Nature created this and Nature created that?" How does Nature create and who is Nature? It seems like it is used when there is no explanation for a phenomenon!tb
July 17, 2008
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This time WITHOUT the tags: "I do not see how it follows that IF a natural law governs some aspect of the natural world (gravitation, and the movement of planets, for example) THEN that law must have a designer."Tom MH
July 17, 2008
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StephenB:
Also, if I understand you correctly, the rationality of the universe is a self evident principle.
Actually, I did not state is as self-evident, but merely as a postulate. Of course, there are many physical phenomena that naturally lead us to expectations of regularity (the diurnal cycle, the phase of the moon, the seasons). But is ALL the natural world rational? That to me is a postulate, not a conclusion. It is supported by the success at which its application to inquiry leads to discovery and understanding. Newton's Laws, the Laws of Thermodynamics, Maxwell’s equations, Quantum Electrodynamics - these may all seem self-evident w, but they weren't initially self-evident to their discoverers. To form those Theorys, in the face of all the challenges that we easily overlook, their discoverers needed first to believe (or at least postulate) that an underlying order was possible. Call it the postulate of a rational universe. The rational universe does come free to the theist. The universe could be constantly and permanently in motion at the whim of an unpredictable God. The planets move because God wills them to move. (Or gods – the pantheist, lacking a sense of parsimony, assigns a unique god to each planet.) The intermediaries of gravitation, the inverse square law, action at a distance: these are cold rules of rationality neither explicit nor implicit in a faith in God. Also, I note that the Explanatory Filter offers three outcomes: law, chance, or design. The agency of God would, given adequate specificity, fall under “design”. A rational universe would fall under “law”. You seem to be tying “design” and “law” together, or claiming that law is preceded by design, with God the agent behind both. (If that is the case, why not go for the trifecta, and make Him the agent behind chance as well. There is plenty of precedent for it in insurance underwriting, which classifies severe and unpredictable meteorological events as “Acts of God”.) I do not see how it follows that IF a natural laoverns some aspect of the natural world (gravitation, and the movement of planets, for example) THEN that law must have a designer. It is not, in my mind, a reasonable inference, but an act of faith. It certainly isn’t an inference incorporated in the EF. Paul Giem: I share StephenB’s opinion of your post, and look forward to an opportunity to reply. Alas, at the immediate moment, other duty’s call…Tom MH
July 17, 2008
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Paul Giem: congratulations on an admirable post @63.StephenB
July 16, 2008
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Tom MH, It does seem like we share the axiom that the universe is rational, although we need to explore precisely what that means. Does that mean that the universe is self-explanatory? If Big-Bang cosmology is correct, then there was a time when the universe was not self-explanatory. One can postulate a God, or multiple universes, or a super-universe. But the universe we know cannot explain itself, when pushed back beyond some 13.7 billion years. So, unless one is prepared to challenge Big-Bang cosmology, one must admit that rationality (for the universe) does not entail complete obedience to natural law (the laws of physics as we understand laws) and nothing else. For the laws of physics fail at the moment of the Big Bang. That's why it is called a singularity. Are there any other times at which there is evidence for a singularity? Are there any other times when the laws of physics fail to explain the observed phenomena? Probably the best candidate for such a time is at the origin of life. Consider three postulates: 1. Life exists at present. 2. Life could not have existed for a substantial period of time after the Big Bang. 3. Life comes only from life. I believe we can agree on the first postulate. I believe that, given the Big Bang, we can agree on the second postulate. The real question is whether the third postulate is secure. As you know, there was a time when the third postulate was believed to be demonstrably false. That time is gone. In fact, the whole point of evolution would be moot if the third postulate were routinely violated. Need some new phyla in the Cambrian? No problem. Trilobites, starfish, clams, hallucinogenia, and hagfish can just spontaneously pop into being. No need to postulate, let alone find, intermediates between ediacaran life and trilobites, for instance. For that matter, no need to find intermediates between reptiles and birds, or between chimpanzees and humans. They just spontaneously generated. The point is that it is generally recognized that the spontaneous generation of life is at least difficult and rare. Is it even possible without the intervention of some kind of intelligence? We certainly don't know the answer is yes by any kind of scientific experimentation. In fact, all our experiments to date argue that the answer is no. So if there is to be any evidence for the belief in abiogenesis, it must (at present) come from theory. But as you also probably know, there is no coherent theory that explains the origin of life from non-life without intelligence either. Otherwise, Harverd scientists would not have gotten their grant to produce such a theory. And the obstacles in the way of such a theory are formidable. They include (not an exhaustive list): 1. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the amino acids used in life. 2. Miller-Urey apparati produce numerous other compounds not used in life, and some that are toxic (the most prominent one being hydrogen cyanide). 3. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce sugars in the presence of ammonia, which is required for producing amino acids. 4. Miller-Urey apparati do not produce all the bases needed for DNA and RNA (Adenine, (HCN)5, being the only one made in appreciable amounts). 5. No known reaction will add bases to the 1-position of ribose (even living organisms do not synthesize the nucleosides that way, using either a complicated synthesis for adenine and guanine, or orotic acid for uridine and cytidine). 6. There is no known process for consistently forming one chirality (left-handed versus right-handed) of biochemical compounds from racemic (non-chiral or mixed chiral) reagents, outside of life itself. 7. There is no known way to get nucleoside triphosphates from nucleosides other than biochemically. 8. When nucleosides polymerize naturally into RNA, they form 2'-5' linkages rather than the 3'-5' linkages normally found in RNA. 9. When RNA is formed by RNA polymerase, shorter RNA molecules outcompete longer ones. 10. Reasonable requirements for the specificity of RNA required for the origin of life are vastly beyond the probabilistic resources of the universe. 11. Even given all the ingredients for life, life will still not spontaneously reorganize. That is why canned fool can sit on the shelf indefinitely without spoiling. Thus all the evidence we have points to postulate 3 above being correct; life only comes from life. This appears to point to another singularity, this time after the universe began. Postulating a material intelligence (as Dawkins allowed) doesn't solve the problem. For then that intelligence must have arisen via some mechanism also. If it is life, then we still must allow for its spontaneous generation, or else a singularity for it. Non-living intelligence is even more of a reach. To postulate that computers, for example, can evolve without intelligent (e. g., from people) input completely strains credulity. And computers cannot have made it through the Big Bang. So we are left with three alternatives. 1. There are laws of which we are totally ignorant that can produce life from non-living material, without the intervention of intelligence. 2. Life arose through a singularity with no cause, sometime after the universe was formed (implying a break in rationality). 3. Life arose through the action of an intelligent agent, whose intelligence is not dependent upon the organization of matter (which would make that agent supernatural). Option 2, it seems to me, is irrational, and concedes a universe that is at least partly irrational. Option 3 is not irrational, but is not materialistic, postulating an entity or entities that is/are not restricted to the material. That is, it is rational, but not materialistic. Option 1 is rational in one sense; we know that our information is incomplete, and this could be one more area where our information is incomplete. And belief in abiogenesis allows us to view the universe as completely (well, except for quantum mechanics and the Big Bang itself), explained by cause-effect relations. But it is heavily faith-based. We have no experimental evidence for this belief, and the theoretical problems appear insoluble. We have here belief against all the evidence, analogous to the most daring leaps of religious faith imaginable, that is to say, faith not only without evidence but in the teeth of evidence. And it is even worse; there is no appeal to a God Who could reasonably do the feat that needs explaining. It is a miracle without God. The rationale that I have seen for this leap of faith is usually that "science" has solved all previous problems and will solve this one too. But this argument is wrong, on two counts. First, even if successful, it would only establish that there was relative parity between the argument for the supernatural origin of life and those for abiogenesis. We would still be completely dependent on faith to believe in abiogenesis. Second, and perhaps more importantly, "science" has in fact not solved all previous problems. Science has come up to a stone wall regarding the origin of the universe. In fact, "science" has come up to several difficult obstacles, issued promissory notes, and moved on without actually solving the problems. The origin of the Cambrian fauna is something that non-interventionalist evolutionary theory has simply postulated without fossil evidence. The origin of the flagellum in a step-by-step manner has never actually been demonstrated (the best try, that of Matzke, was actually a leap-by-leap explanation, and even then without any experimental evidence to back up his scenario). This insistence that nature must be self-contained is in fact faith against the weight of evidence. Now if you want to believe in abiogenesis by faith, I won't begrudge you. But some of us prefer to be a little more evience-based.Paul Giem
July 16, 2008
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Excuse please: Paragraph two misplaced the order of events, which should read movement, regularity, order, and design.StephenB
July 16, 2008
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Tom MN: Thanks for your response. We seem to agree that assuming first principles is a necessary condition for reasoning in the abstract. Also, if I understand you correctly, the rationality of the universe is a self evident principle. I would be inclined to say that reason derives that principle through observation and reflection, and that only reason’s first principles must be taken on faith. Put another way, I don’t think we have to take the rationality of the universe on faith, we can deduce it through the use of unaided reason, though I think that religious faith can confirm it. I suppose part of the difficulty has to do with what we mean by a rational universe. For my part, that term is a more general way of expressing the totality of more specific attributes such as movement, order, regularity, and design---in that order. To me these concepts are inseparable in this sense that one cannot reasonably explain one without an appeal to the other. That is what rationality means; things make sense because they hang together, or, as they like to say in philosophy and science, they exhibit the principle of “coherence.” Aristotle’s “prime mover” argument and Aquinas’ five ways would be two examples. In any case, we have two propositions: The theist (at least a classical theist) insists that movement and regularity imply order, which, in turn, implies design, which in turn implies a designer. Keep in mind that this formulation does not require faith. It is an inference, and a reasonable one, in my judgment. The materialist rejects this proposition and insists that order can explain itself. In effect, he scoffs at that which reason dictates and insists that it CANNOT be the case. He admits that design is manifest, (how can he not) but he tries to explain, with no intellectual justification, that it is an “illusion.” Richard Dawkins, for example, defines biology as the study of organism that “appear” to be designed. That is because he has taken a leap of faith and decided to believe that order can explain itself. If we perceive design, he claims, we are deluding ourselves. But the materialist is not content to make his own leap of faith; he demands that we must all take that leap with him. In his judgment, order must be its own explanation, and that is all there is to it. Further, he is going to define science in such restrictive terms that no other conclusion is possible. That is what methodological naturalism is all about. It is simply a set of arbitrary rules that codifies and institutionalizes the following proposition: “You may not perform a design inference in the name of science. Even if that is where the evidence leads, even if reason itself has already discovered it, even science was founded on that very principle, you may not do it. Further, if you dare to dissent, meaning that if you use legitimate scientific methods to uncover evidence for design, we will make you pay for it. We who hold power and who arrogate unto ourselves the right to rule science and define its parameters forever, will slander you, discredit you, and remove you from the community of researchers and scholars.”StephenB
July 16, 2008
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StephenB: thanks for your response! Yes, I agree with [II]: first principles are (by definition) assumed, and not derived or proven. (And I will at least provisionally agree to conflate "faith" with "assumption", "axiom", or "postulate". In a like manner I will conflate "materialist" with "atheist", as the converse of "theist" - I like my dichotomies to be tidy.) We make some assumptions and then follow where they lead us. Start with the Peano postulates (and the patience of a saint) and you are led to 1+1=2. Start with Euclid's five postulates and you are led to planar geometry. Change Euclid's fifth postulate and you can get different geometries, which are either sublime or ridiculous depending on your taste. And so forth. The value of these postulates is whether they lead us to discover anything fruitful (like arithmetic) or congruent with reality (like Euclid's geometry...until Einstein showed us that space-time was decidedly non-Euclidean). The postulate that I have been talking here is that of a rational universe. That is, the postulate that the natural world is governed by an underlying order, a mathematically consistent system of laws and principles. Sorry for such a poor definition but I think you understand what I mean. Note that I have this posed as a first principle, and therefore nothing that can be derived from "Reason". Perhaps that is our sticking point? Both theists and atheists may assume a rational universe. For theists this is an additional assumption beyond just the existence of a supreme being. IOW a faith in the existence of God does not necessarily include the faith that the universe is rational, especially if God is omniscient and omnipresent. For if He is, then He can readily attend to the fall of each sparrow, not to mention the orbit of each planet or the decay of each neutron. No need for the intermediary of natural laws. Thus, two commitments of faith for the theist: God exists, and His universe is rational. Only one commitment of faith here for the atheist: the universe is rational. Your argument in [I] seems to be that if the universe is rational then someone must have made it so. And further, that denying that requires an additional leap of faith by the atheist. Have I got that correctly? If so, then I do not follow your argument. Nor can I find it among the arguments for the existence of God for which BarryA provided a wiki link. This, too, may be a sticking point between us. Finally, I must ask why the postulate of a rational universe needs to be suspended for certain questions. Such as, say, the origin of species. Or the origin of life. At what point do we decide that the natural world had ceased to be rational; that God has dispensed with the intermediary of natural law and is intervening directly? When do we decide that he has turned off the autopilot and taken direct control? You will agree, won’t you, that if natural law does not hold and God is directly intervening in the conduct of the universe, then the further search for order (in that particular corner of nature) is useless, yes? Unless we wish to postulate that God Himself is subject to rational law- but that is too metaphysically confusing for me to pursue. At any rate, my contention is that the atheist (materialist) does not reach this point, he continues to believe in a rational universe as long as that postulate yields fruitful results. Or, well, as long as it pleases him to do so. Methodological naturalism also doggedly holds to the postulate of a rational universe. But remember, this postulate stand separate (imho) from the existence of God. Therefore I see no conflict between theism and methodological naturalism. The denial of God is not a requirement. Tom MH {note to blockquote monster: I am now cutting and pasting from MS Word. Do your worst, evil demon.}Tom MH
July 16, 2008
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Pubdef: "Is the Christian’s faith in the existence of God similarly subject to revision based on new data?" Probably would be, except that I doubt if there really is any new data. The old data transcends anything new that could be discovered. Interesting when you consider the current state of Darwinian evolution. They (the Darwinists) believe that the old data transcends anything new. So do we have a religion here, or what?CannuckianYankee
July 15, 2008
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Tom MH: I think I have lost track of your trajectory. Two propositions are on the table that you seem to dispute: [I] Materialism presumes that matter, space, and energy is all there is. Reason, on the other hand, leads us to conclude that [A] the universe is ordered therefore [B] someone must have ordered it. By denying [B], the materialist takes a much greater leap of faith than the theist, because his faith defies reason, while the Theists faith is consistent with it. Further, as I think we can agree, the universe appears to be designed. The theist proceeds on that assumption, and therefore, his search for order is logical. The materialist, on the other hand, claims that design is an “illusion,” yet he continues to look for order. Thus, he believes that there can be order without design, which constitutes another giant leap of faith. [II] First principles of reason cannot be proven, they must be assumed, or, if you like, taken on faith. If that is not the case, explain how reason can arrive at reason’s first principles. {The law of non-contradiction, for example, or the law of the excluded middle, or the principle that the whole is greater than any of its parts etc.} Am I reading you right? Do you deny I and II, and, if so, how do your resolve the difficulties?StephenB
July 15, 2008
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Atom, perhaps in the next installment of The Matrix, Neo (or "Nero" ;) wakes up and discovers that he was actually in a cybernetic dream in the previous three movies. It's containers of viscous goo all the way down (until stack crash).Tom MH
July 15, 2008
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Actually, StephenB, I was not posing that as a materialist's assumption but the assumption made by any who pursue a rational inquiry into the nature of the physical world. Science looks for underlying order. One needs the conviction that it exists, and is discoverable, to have even the hope of succeeding in discovering it. Why is that conviction appropriate in some fields of study but must be set aside in others? And it goes without saying that without a discovery of order it is pointless to look for an orderer.Tom MH
July 15, 2008
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-----Tom MH: .....(materialist assumption) that the natural world is governed by laws or symmetry, and that those laws or symmetires can be grasped by the mind of man. If a theistic scientist assumes that the natural world obeys laws that represent the will of God, then what need or reason does he have to abandon that assumption now? If reason takes us to order, then it cannot ligically stop there, it must proceed onwards to the orderer. In other words, it is not enough to say "I believe in order" and leave it at that. That would be like saying "I believe in paintings," but I renounce the proposition that a painter exists, or as methodological naturalism would have it, I must study the painting as if it wasn't painted. This is not only a monumental leap of faith, it is an irrational approach to intellectual inquiry.StephenB
July 15, 2008
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kf wrote:
...hence Nero's "discovery" in the Matrix...
You caught me off gaurd with this typo...I paused to wonder why I didn't remember "Nero" in the movies...lol.Atom
July 15, 2008
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Following up: On the cosmological argument to God, adapting a Wm Lane Craig paper in light of the concept of contingent vs necessary beings: __________ 1. Whatever exists has a reason for its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external ground. 2. Whatever >begins to exist is not necessary in its existence. [Here, we advert to both the evident beginning of the observed universe and its fine-tuning . . .] 3. If the [observed] universe [which is generally viewed by cosmologists as originating in a "big bang" some 13.7 BYA] has an external ground of its existence, then there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful. [NOTE: For, impersonal but deterministic causes will produce a result as soon as they are present, e.g. as soon as heat, fuel and oxidiser are jointly present, a fire bursts into being. That is, it takes an agent cause to act in a structured fashion at a particular beginning-point. See (4) below on the idea of sub-universes popping up at random in an underlying infinite, eternal universe as a whole.] 4. The [observed] universe began to exist. [NOTE: To deny this, one in effect must propose a speculative, eternally existing wider universe as a whole; in which sub-universes (such as our own) pop up more or less at random. This, of course is not at all what we have actually observed. Such a resort thus brings out the underlying speculative -- and after-the-fact -- metaphysics embedded in such "multiverse" proposals . . . ] From (2) and (4) it follows that 5. Therefore, the universe is not necessary in its existence. From (1) and (5) it follows further that 6. Therefore, the universe has an external ground of its existence. From (3) and (6) it we can conclude that 7. Therefore, there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful. And this, as Thomas Aquinas laconically remarked,{67} is what everybody means by God. ___________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2008
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The blockquote problem might be user error that's not properly vetted by the client-side preview code. In short, it's possible to be over-reliant on the preview's interpretation of the formatting. For instance, <blockquote>text</blockquote> seems to work properly in the preview and when posted. However <blockquote>text</blockquote will work in the preview, but is unlikely to work in the final post. I can't say for certain that this is the case, but it's quite possible, and so double-checking the tags is highly recommended.Apollos
July 15, 2008
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Blockquote test:
testing testing (inside)
Check 1, check 2, sssibilance, sssibilance (outside).Apollos
July 15, 2008
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blockquote does not work properly here any longer, it shows good in the preview yet it turns out terribly in the site itself! Can anyone FIX THIS PLEASE!tb
July 15, 2008
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Skevos Mavros
Why can we not reasonably assume, until evidence suggests otherwise, that this “uncaused first cause” was a not-yet-understood, possibly very weird, natural process?What is a "very weird, natural process", and how can you reasonably suggest it was natural (materialistic)?tb
July 15, 2008
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