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Functional information defined

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What is function? What is functional information? Can it be measured?

Let’s try to clarify those points a little.

Function is often a controversial concept. It is one of those things that everybody apparently understands, but nobody dares to define. So it happens that, as soon as you try to use that concept in some reasoning, your kind interlocutor immediately stops you at the beginning, with the following smart request: “Yes, but what is function? How can you define it?

So, I will try to define it.

A premise. As we are not debating philosophy, but empirical science, we need to remain adherent to what can be observed. So, in defining function, we must stick to what can be observed: objects and events, in a word facts.

That’s what I will do.

But as usual I will include, in my list of observables, conscious beings, and in particular humans. And all the observable processes which take place in their consciousness, including the subjective experiences of understanding and purpose. Those things cannot be defined other than as specific experiences which happen in a conscious being, and which we all understand because we observe them in ourselves.

That said, I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

The purpose of this distinction should be clear, but I will state it explicitly just the same: a function is a conception of a conscious being, it does not exist  in the material world outside of us, but it does exist in our subjective experience. Objective functionalities, instead, are properties of material objects. But we need a conscious observer to connect an objective functionality to a consciously defined function.

Let’s make an example.

Stones

I am a conscious observer. At the beach, I see various stones. In my consciousness, I represent the desire to use a stone as a chopping tool to obtain a specific result (to chop some kind of food). And I choose one particular stone which seems to be good for that.

So we have:

a) The function: chopping food as desired. This is a conscious representation in the observer, connecting a specific stone to the desired result. The function is not in the stone, but in the observer’s consciousness.

b) The functionality in the chosen stone: that stone can be used to obtain the desired result.

So, what makes that stone “good” to obtain the result? Its properties.

First of all, being a stone. Then, being in some range of dimensions and form and hardness. Not every stone will do. If it is too big, or too small, or with the wrong form, etc., it cannot be used for my purpose.

But many of them will be good.

So, let’s imagine that we have 10^6 stones on that beach, and that we try to use each of them to chop some definite food, and we classify each stone for a binary result: good – not good, defining objectively how much and how well the food must be chopped to give a “good” result. And we count the good stones.

I call the total number of stones: the Search space.

I call the total number of good stones: the Target space

I call –log2 of the ratio Target space/Search space:  Functionally Specified Information (FSI) for that function in the system of all the stones I can find in that beach. It is expressed in bits, because we take -log2 of the number.

So, for example, if 10^4 stones on the beach are good, the FSI for that function in that system is –log2 of 10^-2, that is  6,64386 bits.

What does that mean? It means that one stone out of 100 is good, in the sense we have defined, and if we choose randomly one stone in that beach we have a probability to find a good stone of 0.01 (2^-6,64386).

I hope that is clear.

So, the general definitions:

c) Specification. Given a well defined set of objects (the search space), we call “specification”, in relation to that set, any explicit objective rule that can divide the set in two non overlapping subsets:  the “specified” subset (target space) and the “non specified” subset.  IOWs, a specification is any well defined rule which generates a binary partition in a well defined set of objects.

d) Functional Specification. It is a special form of specification (in the sense defined above), where the rule that specifies is of the following type:  “The specified subset in this well defined set of objects includes all the objects in the set which can implement the following, well defined function…” .  IOWs, a functional specification is any well defined rule which generates a binary partition in a well defined set of objects using a function defined as in a) and verifying if the functionality, defined as in b), is present in each object of the set.

It should be clear that functional specification is a definite subset of specification. Other properties, different from function, can in principle be used  to specify. But for our purposes we will stick to functional specification, as defined here.

e) The ratio Target space/Search space  expresses the probability of getting an object from the search space by one random search attempt, in a system where each object has the same probability of being found by a random search (that is, a system with an uniform probability of finding those objects).

f) The Functionally Specified  Information  (FSI)  in bits is simply –log2 of that number. Please, note that I  imply  no specific  meaning of the word “information” here. We could call it any other way. What I mean is exactly what I have defined, and nothing more.

One last step. FSI is a continuous numerical value, different for each function and system.  But it is possible to categorize  the concept in order to have a binary variable (yes/no) for each function in a system.

So, we define a threshold (for some specific  system of objects). Let’s say 30 bits.  We compute different values of FSI for many different functions which can be conceived for the objects in that system. We say that those functions which have a value of FSI above the threshold we have chosen (for example, more than 30 bits) are complex. I will not discuss here how the threshold is chosen, because that is part of the application of these concepts to the design inference, which will be the object of another post.

g) Functionally Specified Complex Information is therefore a binary property defined for a function in a system by a threshold. A function, in a specific system, can be “complex” (having  FSI above the threshold). In that case, we say that the function implicates FSCI in that system, and if an object observed in that system implements that function we say that the object exhibits FSCI.

h) Finally, if the function for which we use our objects is linked to a digital sequence which can be read in the object, we simply speak of digital FSCI: dFSCI.

So, FSI is a subset of SI, and dFSI is a subset of FSI. Each of these can be expressed in categorical form (complex/non complex).

Some final notes:

1) In this post, I have said nothing about design. I will discuss in a future post how these concepts can be used for a design inference, and why dFSCI is the most useful concept to infer design for biological information.

2) As you can see, I have strictly avoided to discuss what information is or is not. I have used the word for a specific definition, with no general implications at all.

1030743_72733179

3) Different functionalities for different functions can be defined for the same object or set of objects. Each function will have different values of FSI. For example, a tablet computer can certainly be used as a paperweight. It can also be used to make complex computations. So, the same object has different functionalities. Obviously, the FSI will be very different for the two functions: very low for the paperweight function (any object in that range of dimensions and weight will do), and very high for the computational function (it’s not so easy to find a material object that can work as a computer).

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4) Although I have used a conscious observer to define function, there is no subjectivity in the procedures. The conscious observer can define any possible function he likes. He is absolutely free. But he has to define objectively the function, and how to measure the functionality, so that everyone can objectively verify the measurement. So, there is no subjectivity in the measurements, but each measurement is referred to a specific function, objectively defined by a subject.

Comments
Hi gpuccio, Not sure if this thread is still exist. I notice a paper below use –log2(p) formula in calculating functional information, but p is estimated using Fisher's exact test. I am not sure if it is used correctly. Can p-value from statistical test be used directly as the probability for functional information formula? If so, it leads to many alternative ways to calculate the p term in functional information. "DECODE: an integrated differential co-expression and differential expression analysis of gene expression data", BMC Bioinfomratic 2015. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2105/16/182bonebone
November 2, 2015
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Piotr @269:
Neutral (or rather nearly neutral) evolution is (1) harder to understand (you have to learn something about the mathematics of drift to appreciate its importance), (2) its effects look less impressive.
Good point. Once we put real math into the equation the results appear a lot more modest. The same holds true with attempts to quantify natural selection's capabilities (e.g., Behe's Edge of Evolution). But given that most of the time the math is avoided and we are just dealing with cute just-so stories, then natural selection seems quite powerful indeed. Which leads back to one of my maxims: "The perception of evolutionary theory's explanatory power is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion." :)Eric Anderson
May 13, 2014
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I think the relatedness can best be demonstrated by an examination of their sausages!Mung
May 12, 2014
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gpuccio @ 272 "I think I too get along well enough with Piotr." It's obviously noticeable. "Maybe Italians share a common ancestor with Polish too." Perhaps yes, they do. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_SforzaDionisio
May 12, 2014
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Piotr, Perhaps this recent news report will help you to finally convince our common friend GP that OOL is not as complex as he claims it is ;-) http://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci/Kiedys-kradli-auta-teraz-kradna-mieszkania-Za-plecami-wlascicieli-n79519.html Now, given the tremendous popularity your discussion with GP has gained, I'm thinking about hosting a live debate on OOL between the two of you (in English), and then split the profits, 40% for you, 40% for GP, 10% for myself, 10% for the venue, which could be the Ergo Arena in Sopot. You may want to discuss the idea with GP and let me know if we should go for it. Then we have to determine a date. ;-)Dionisio
May 12, 2014
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There's surely some horizontal transfer going on: my sister married an Italian and I have two nephews and a niece in Turin.Piotr
May 12, 2014
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Dionisio: Your family tree is well mannered, that's all! :) I think I too get along well enough with Piotr. Maybe Italians share a common ancestor with Polish too.gpuccio
May 12, 2014
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gpuccio, [off topic]
But perhaps my wife is right: my jokes are funny only for me.
Please, let you wife know that your jokes are funny to other readers of your comments as well. At least to those who are Spanish-speakers. But maybe that's because we both share a common ancestor? I'm not too familiar with the origin of nationalities and cultures, but do the Spanish and Italian languages share a Common Descent? What is it? I remember they told me an Italian guy was hired by a Spanish queen to sail westward, and the Italiano discovered the Caribbean islands for the Spaniards. But I don't recall the details. By the way, my family tree looks more like a balanced binary tree than the tree of life I've seen described in some articles lately. Also, my family tree does not keep changing shape and form, with branches switching places or suffering radical transformations, as I've seen sometimes happening with the tree of life. Why? Can't they just set it and keep adding missing relative's names, as we do with our family trees? I mean, we can draw our family tree, and leave empty boxes to be filled up with additional names or even sub-branches as the missing information is gathered later on. Can't the do the same with the tree of life? Why not? Anyway, sorry for digressing so much from the original subject. Mea culpa :( P.S. I'm half Polish, that's why I get along so well with Piotr too ;-)Dionisio
May 12, 2014
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Piotr: The neo neo thing intended to be ironic. It implied (in my mind) the idea that in those views everything seems to be different and new and fascinating and trendy, but in the end the old traditional "modern synthesis" always rules. I could also call it "new age darwinism". :) But perhaps my wife is right: my jokes are funny only for me.gpuccio
May 12, 2014
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Dionisio:
They still present the Darwinian RV+NS formula as the proven magic creator of all the plants and animals. Does that make sense to you?
Probably because natural selection is the most important mechanism of adaptive change, and adaptations look so cool. They are didactically attractive. For a similar reason popular books about paleontology used to be mostly about dinosaurs (and not just any old dinosaurs but the big weirdos chasing each other across Jurassic plains). Who doesn't adore dinos? Neutral (or rather nearly neutral) evolution is (1) harder to understand (you have to learn something about the mathematics of drift to appreciate its importance), (2) its effects look less impressive. Gpuccio:
“neo neo darwinism”
The discipline is being developed all the time, and you can expect more change in the future. How about calling it simply (modern) evolutionary biology rather than add more "neos" to "Darwinism"? After all, we don't call modern quantum physics "neo-neo-Bohrism".Piotr
May 12, 2014
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Dionisio (and Piotr): Scientists like Moran (and maybe Myers) have tried to present themselves as different, in some way, from the neo darwinian orthodoxy, but the whole discussion originated by VJ here, and Moran's contributions to it, show well how ambiguous and vague this "difference" is, when really tested by definite requests. In the end, as I have said here, RV + NS is still the only game in town. If one excludes design. There are, obviously, true substantal "dissenters". there have been in the past, too. Gould, and Kimura, and McClintock. There are now. Shapiro, Pigliucci, and many others. Each of them has brought interesting contributions, and the scenario is more varied for that. But, in most cases, the commitment to a "naturalistic" (which, in this context, just means "non design") explanation makes their novelty extremely vulnerable: the old strong story of RV + NS is always there, ready to include and digest and neutralize all other points of views, and remains the only game in town. Because it is. Dawkins is completely right, IMO, about that. If design is excluded a priori, RV + NS is really the only game in town. A very bad game, but the only one. Neutralism, epigenetics, engines of variation, and all the other finesses of what I often call "neo neo darwinism" are not even a game. They don't even start to try to explain anything.gpuccio
May 11, 2014
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Dionisio: There is no necessity to have doubts about the unchanged status of neo darwinism (RV + NS) as the central dogma of scientific academy, from Dawkins to Coyne to Matzke. It's enough to read Matzke'summary here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-much-disputed-neutral-theory-of-evolution-and-the-book-that-professor-moran-refuses-to-review-larry-moran-responds-to-my-questions/ at posts 29-34. And, if you want, my summary of his ideas at post 56 in the same thread, and his comment again at post 63 (with some backpedaling at 65). And my final request of some scientific support to his statements, at posts 69 - 70, so that we may discuss facts. Piotr is aware of the exchange, as from his post #261 here. And it seems he is waiting for further contributions from Matzke, who "knows a helluvalot more about these things". I am waiting, too.gpuccio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr,
You should know even from discussions on this blog that modern biologists don’t worship Darwin and of course disagree with many of his ideas. Darwin has to be given due credit for his pioneering work, but he was demonstrably wrong about many important features of evolution. It would be foolish to blame him: he worked with very limited evidence, had no great predecessors to stand on their shoulders, and didn’t even live to witness the birth of genetics, let alone pop gen. Anyway, The Origins is not the biologists’ bible.
However, despite all that, most textbooks out there don't reveal what you just wrote. They still present the Darwinian RV+NS formula as the proven magic creator of all the plants and animals. Does that make sense to you? Not to me. That attitude has only discredited science in the eyes of many. Perhaps that's why the ongoing heated debate seems to get louder everyday.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr, Your and my interpretations of the information we read are biased, because they're affected by our different worldviews. That's why the OOL discussion can easily turn philosophical and lead no where. We should look objectively at the data and make our unbiased conclusions based on the evidences we see. In the areas we still don't understand, we should not rush to premature conclusions.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr, Thank you for the additional information you wrote. I think that OOL theories and discussions are not scientific per se because they can't be completely tested with observations. I'm more interested in the detailed description of the known biological systems. They are fascinating and complex enough to keep busy many honest dedicated scientists all over the world. Fortunately most scientists don't care much about this OOL debate, because they're too busy trying to get their difficult research work done. Science should stay away from the philosophical discussion on OOL. These days we can find engineers and computer scientists working along with biologists and biochemists on research projects. In another thread I mentioned two examples of engineers and computer scientists who lead biology research teams at Stanford University (a lady who is electrical engineer) and University of Florida (an Italian gentleman who is a computer scientist). I'm not a scientist. I work on a software development project. The data coming out of research labs is answering some outstanding questions, but also raising new questions. Almost like a never-ending story. The deeper they dig, the more fascinating the picture looks.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Dionisio:
So here you have a respected Polish scientist from the famous university in Krakow, who does not seem to agree with the Britton who wrote the scandalous extrapolation story based on the adaptation of the Galapagos finch.
I haven't heard of Korohoda before. He does seem to be a respected retired embryologist and cytobiologist. As far as I can see, he hasn't published anything on evolution, so I assume that he's presenting his private views to a more-or-less lay audience. Judging from the presentation, he's a Lamarckist of sorts, skightly obsessed with "epigenetic self-reprogramming" as a major evolutionary force -- eccentric, but not exactly ID. To save you the trouble of googling up furter examples, there's also a retired professor of dendrology (and ultraconservative politician) called Maciej Giertych, who is a genuine young-Earth creationist. A few years ago, when he was a Polish member of the European Parliament, he made a show of himself by organising YEC seminars in Brussels. You must have heard of him. So there's one YEC with scientific credentials. Do you realise how many biologists there are in Poland? Find me one who thinks Giertych is right. You should know even from discussions on this blog that modern biologists don't worship Darwin and of course disagree with many of his ideas. Darwin has to be given due credit for his pioneering work, but he was demonstrably wrong about many important features of evolution. It would be foolish to blame him: he worked with very limited evidence, had no great predecessors to stand on their shoulders, and didn't even live to witness the birth of genetics, let alone pop gen. Anyway, The Origins is not the biologists' bible.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Piotr, This Polish scientist apparently is against neo-Darwinian RV+NS theory, though he may not be an ID proponent. Perhaps he is closer to the position of the guy who is the head of the NIH in the USA, some kind of TE or something like that, but definitely they don't seem to buy the RV+NS story. So here you have a respected Polish scientist from the famous university in Krakow, who does not seem to agree with the Britton who wrote the scandalous extrapolation story based on the adaptation of the Galapagos finch: Biologia komórkowa i molekularna nauk? XXI wieku BTW, I got this link from the TZ Polski link within the Tomasz Zadarmo bookmarking blog. Maybe there are more cool stuffs in the same TZ Polski link?Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Gpuccio: Some of the same topics (gene duplication + subfunctionalisation) have come up in your discussion with Nick Matzke in another thread. Nick knows a helluvalot more about these things, and I don't want to duplicate that discussion, so I'll suspended my participation for the moment. I haven't forgotten, though.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Dionisio @ 257
I have don’t much google searching already,...
Oops! Sorry, I meant
I have done much google searching already,...
Mea culpa :(Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr: However, Dionisio is right. You had asked about my ideas on how the designer acts on material things, and I have answered giving you my ideas about the consciousness brain interaction (and therefore also the designer - biological matter interaction, which IMO is nased on the same principles). That is interesting, but the biological issues we debated before that are interesting too. Let's remember that.gpuccio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr: a) About Penrose: I admire his work too. Especially his demonstration of the non algorithmic nature of conscious knowledge, starting from the Godel theorem. However, I agree with you that his attempts to build a "positive" model have great limitations, and the reason is exactly that he tries to stick to a "physical" view of reality. I am not sure that I am a dualist in the conventional sense, but I do believe that we have to consider consciousness as a separate empirical thing, and that it is impossible to explain it in terms of configurations of matter, even by quantum models. But Penrose is not the only theorist of quantum interaction between mind and brain. I was thinking more of Eccles and similar. b) You say:
Before you ask, I’m not a fan of any interpretation of quantum mechanics which assigns a special role to a conscious observer in reducing indeterminacies to a single possibility. More generally, I would argue that the dichotomy “indeterministic quantum reality” versus “deterministic classical reality” (with wave function collapse creating the latter) is a false one. There are, for example, no “quantum electrons” as opposed to “localised electrons” produced by the act of observation. Far from being a fundamental physical process, collapse is an apparent effect of decoherence.
I am not a fan of those interpretations too. I don't think that the collapse of the wave function is determined by conscious observation. But I believe that it is real, and not "an apparent effect of decoherence". Without the collapse, or however you want to call it, QM would just be another form of deterministic description of reality, essentially not different from traditional mechanics. Why? Because the evolution of the wave function is strictly deterministic. It's only when we take into consideration the collapse, and interpret the wave function as a function of probability for the results of the collapse itself, that the whole theory is no more strictly deterministic. The collapse, however, happens in the most diverse contexts, and as far as I can understand we still have no idea of why it happens. What I believe is not that consciousness determines the collapse, but that consciousness, in particular settings, can guide the collapse, transforming events that should be completely probabilistics in events that are apparently probabilistic, but conform in reality to a function or meaning willed by the consciousness itself. IOWs, something like that (from the Wikipedia page about "How the Self Controls Its Brain", by John Eccles):
Eccles called the fundamental neural units of the cerebral cortex "dendrons", which are cylindrical bundles of neurons arranged vertically in the six outer layers or laminae of the cortex, each cylinder being about 60 micrometres in diameter. Eccles proposed that each of the 40 million dendrons is linked with a mental unit, or "psychon", representing a unitary conscious experience. In willed actions and thought, psychons act on dendrons and, for a moment, increase the probability of the firing of selected neurons through quantum tunneling effect in synaptic exocytosis, while in perception the reverse process takes place.
Now, I want to clarify that I don't believe that Eccles, or anyone else, has a definite, detailed theory of the consciousness - brain interface. But I think that the correct solution is in that direction. That allows for an empirical approach to consciousness and brain (both empirically considered and respected), and their interactions. With space enough for models including libertarian free will without any violation of the known laws of physics.gpuccio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr, your discussion with GP has turned philosophical, because you have introduced unscientific terms in your comments (allusions to religions, etc.). Stick to the subject. Stay away from non-scientific terms. BTW, intelligent design is not divorced from science. If you say so, then many engineers and computer scientists would tell you the opposite. Think about it. They claim to use their intelligence to design the stuff we use later for our convenience. When someone asks a purely scientific question, about a particular GRN, or signaling pathway, or genotype-phenotype association mechanisms, or cell fate determination mechanisms, or as it was in my case, where I asked you to help me to contact some biologist researchers at your university, so that I could get some links to materials explaining the mechanisms associated with the spindle apparatus that operates during intrinsic asymmetric cell division, you quickly responded that you could not help, because you are not a biologist or biochemist. But don't you know anyone in your university that could respond my questions? Where have the real scientists gone to? ;-) I have don't much google searching already, and plan to keep doing it (binging it too). But direct suggestions from specialists are always helpful. So I encourage you to ask your colleagues in the university and see if they know a researcher in a biology-related department. Don't forget my 'zaproszenie na herbate albo kawe' next time you go to Gdansk. Then we could chat directly po polsku. Serdecznie pozdrawiam.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr @ 254
Human language has its limitations. I said “reality” (rather than “this universe”) in the sense ‘anything we can learn about’. There may be other universes, and we may find a way to learn something about them indirectly, without being able to observe them. That would make them “real” too.
The terms 'reality' and 'this universe' are quite different. Wouldn't reality include anything that might be beyond this universe of beyond its 'multi' variants? Would science be able to research that transcendent 'whatever' using the scientific method that includes observation of the evidence in order to confirm and prove any hypothesis or theory? Since you said you're an expert in linguistics at the main university in Poznan, you could have done much better than that, couldn't you? I'm not an expert in linguistics and English is not my first language. Actually, I'm not an expert on anything. I have good news for you. Even though you deny or reject God, He loves you. I know it because I know He loves me, and I'm much worse than you are.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Piotr @ 250
I have no idea who Tomasz Zadarmo is, but I can see that nobody’s commenting on that blog.
In the 'About' page, the author of that blog wrote that his main purpose for his blog is bookmarking interesting articles, i.e. to save the links to online material he might want to use later. At least that's what I understood. Here's the 'About' section of that blog: http://tomaszzadarmo.wordpress.com/about/ Apparently the guy left the comment option still open for himself to write his own comments next to the links at a later time. But maybe that was not the intent. Bottom line, the blog is not intended for commenting, as it is done in most blogs out there. Notice that the guy does not seem to write anything of his own inspiration, but simply links to other sources of information. I admit that I had not seen this kind of use for a blog before. But that's fine with me.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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Is that a scientific affirmation? Does the term ‘reality’ include whatever is beyond this universe?
Human language has its limitations. I said "reality" (rather than "this universe") in the sense 'anything we can learn about'. There may be other universes, and we may find a way to learn something about them indirectly, without being able to observe them. That would make them "real" too.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Gpuccio, @225 A preamble:
You may be aware of models of the mind-brain interface which are based on quantum mechanics.
I am aware of Roger Penrose's ideas about "the quantum mind". With all due respect to Sir Roger, whose work I admire, I don't think this particular idea is very helpful. As originally presented by Penrose, it wasn't a specific model, by the way, and attempts to turn it into a testable biological model, with Stuart Hameroff's help (things supposedly going on in microtubules), have not been very successful so far. Anyway, Penrose can't be described as a mind/physics dualist. Consciousness, according to him, is a quantum phenomenon. It isn't "material" (in the classical sense) but it is physical. In particular, his idea does not allow consciousness to exist without a physical substrate, independently of other stuff that makes up the universe. Quantum computations won't do themselves without a quantum computer.
We know from physics that the universe must not be necessarily considered as wholly deterministic (unless you are a die hard Einsteinian). Quantum wave function collapse (at least in most interpretations of quantum mechanics) is a true example of intrinsic probabilistic realities. The probabilities in quantum mechanics are not just a way to describe deterministic systems with too many variables, like in conventional statistics. They are an intrinsic property of reality at that level.
Before you ask, I'm not a fan of any interpretation of quantum mechanics which assigns a special role to a conscious observer in reducing indeterminacies to a single possibility. More generally, I would argue that the dichotomy "indeterministic quantum reality" versus "deterministic classical reality" (with wave function collapse creating the latter) is a false one. There are, for example, no "quantum electrons" as opposed to "localised electrons" produced by the act of observation. Far from being a fundamental physical process, collapse is an apparent effect of decoherence. I can develop these thoughts and provide some basic references on demand, but I hope that even without a detailed justification you can see what my general position is.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Piotr @ 244
I accept that science is the best method of collecting reliable and objectively communicable knowledge about reality.
Is that a scientific affirmation? Does the term 'reality' include whatever is beyond this universe? That seems like a philosophical statement, doesn't it? The whole discussion boils down to a confrontation between two opposite irreconcilable worldviews. On one side stand those who believe the ultimate reality is matter and energy represented by the universe or its recent multi variant. On the opposite side stand those who believe that the ultimate reality is non-material transcendent intelligence as the first cause of the universe or its multi valiant. Since there's no apparent reconciliation between those two positions, this discussion becomes senseless at some point. Perhaps this particular thread has reached that state.Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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proponentsists? can we assume you meant proponents?
Google up "cdesign proponentsists" if you've never seen this phrase before.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Dionisio: Has it escaped your attention that the "News" section on the Polish Creationist Society page you have linked to has rather old news (the most recent entry is from September 2010)? The website is as dead as the dodo, and so is the organised creationist/ID movement in these parts. I have no idea who Tomasz Zadarmo is, but I can see that nobody's commenting on that blog.Piotr
May 11, 2014
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Piotr @ 234
The only creation design proponentsists I meet here are the occasional Jehovah’s Witnesses — a recent import from the USA.
Apparently you're not aware of what's going on in your own country? Christians (including RC, but not only) are the most active proponents of creation in your country. [BTW, JWs are not Christians. That's a cult.] You may look at this blog by Polish Creation proponents in your own language: http://creationism.org.pl/artykuly/TJarosz Also, you may want to review the content of the 'TZ Polski' link within http://tzadarmo.wordpress.com Enjoy it!Dionisio
May 11, 2014
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