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Guest Post: Part 1 of 2: Qualitative Complex and Specified Information within genes – An Introduction

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Today’s guest post comes to us from one of our regular commenters, Dr.JDD. All that follows is his:

I would like to start off this post by emphasising this is not meant to be seen in any way as a “disproof” nor an “attempt to disprove” the appearance of complex proteins in eukaryotic cells through proposed unguided evolutionary mechanisms. This is rather I hope something to stir up discussion and engage thought in particular to those who wish to understand better the real complexities and challenges that are needed to be overcome, if indeed we were to accept such proposed mechanisms as genuine and real.

We all know that mutations in DNA can result in a different amino acid appearing in a protein. For example the DNA triplet codon if read as “CTT” would be translated to the amino acid Leucine (L; obviously via the mRNA intermediate). However, if there was a mutation from the C to the G, the frame would read “GTT” and this would be translated into a Valine (V). As we all further know, we can have deleterious, neutral, and beneficial mutations (in a given context). Additionally, a mutation in the third letter of the DNA triplet codon is often redundant at the level of the amino acid because of the redundant nature of the genetic code (“perfectly optimised” many would say). Obviously then, removal of or insertion of a new DNA base will have a much greater impact on the sequence (as you will shift the reading frame) and therefore is usually deleterious.

Now I would make a request that I am not attacked for over-simplifying this concept, but to talk very simply about evolutionary change, mutations will occur at random in certain positions in the DNA sequence and this may be inherited (germline mutations) with a consequence of either deleterious, neutral or beneficial, with most “thought to be near-neutral.”

There remains a question though that has fascinated me for a while, and led me to look at some examples of this. What if we discovered other layers of code within the same gene? What would be the impact of a mutation on this other code, relative to the foremost code? How much would this then limit the availability of more than one code to co-evolve, realistically?

Now these are not questions I personally can easily answer nor have the capacity to answer, to any full degree. But I think it is something interesting that others who are perhaps smarter and of a more “code-orientated” training and mind-set should consider, especially in the context of the ID paradigm.

Just to make a “disclaimer” as well – I profess to not be an expert in this area. My PhD and some of my first post-doctoral work was in the endocytic pathway and protein trafficking and I then moved on to human Immunology. I am no longer in academia but rather the pharmaceutical world so the way I approach research and scientific questions is perhaps a little different than the academic approach, but personally I do not see that as a bad thing. I am not a geneticist is the main point I am making, although I obviously have some training in that field (not that this is an exceptionally useful thing).

Now with the advance of proteomics and our ability to detect peptides and “map” the human proteome, a lot of information has come to light. In particular, it is apparent we are “missing” a lot of proteins found in cells but not annotated as genes in our databases. Surprisingly, for quite some time the field has held to the dogma of one gene, one Open Reading Frame (ORF) – and potentially many different proteins due to alternative splicing events, for example. Yet recent studies mapping the human proteome (“A draft map of the human proteome.” Kim et al. 2014. Nature. 509, 575-581) have yielded many MS spectra that cannot be assigned to annotated genes in the human genome. With that publication in the prestigious Nature journal, one researcher made a very insightful comment which I would like to focus on (emphasis mine):

 

Xavier Roucou 2014 Jul 15
Among several significant contributions in this work, the discovery of 44 novel protein-coding open reading frames (ORFs) illustrates the complexity of the human proteome. Recently, we reported the discovery of 83,886 previously undescribed ORFs termed alternative ORFs (AltORFs) Vanderperre B, 2013. AltORFs are defined as ORFs present in the transcriptome that are different from annotated ORFs. We detected 1,259 proteins translated from AltORFs in human biological samples Vanderperre B, 2013. While the role and importance of this “alternative proteome” will require substantial further validation, there can be no doubt that a comprehensive description of the human proteome must include the distinct possibility of a vastly greater number of functional proteins than has been traditionally considered. Given the existence of the alternative proteome, it is not surprising that Kim et al. found that nearly 50% of the 35 million MS/MS spectra of human proteins did not match proteins in the NCBI’s RefSeq human protein sequence database. In an attempt to identify these novel proteins, the authors translated the human reference genome, RefSeq transcript sequences, non-coding RNAs, and pseudogenes. Among the 193 newly identified proteins, 44 were translated from novel uORFs, ORFs located in an alternate reading frame within coding regions of annotated genes, or ORFs located in 3’-UTRs. The astonishing failure to have detected the alternative proteome years ago results from the fact that MS-based proteomic methods rely on existing protein sequence databases that are far from complete and therefore do not allow the assignment of all MS/MS spectra. Recent ribosome profiling and footprinting approaches have suggested the significant use of unconventional translation initiation sites in mammals Ingolia NT, 2011 Lee S, 2012 Michel AM, 2012, and these alternative proteins should have been detected. In order to better define the human proteome, we generated a new database of alternative ORFs (AltORFs) present in NCBI’s RefSeq human mRNA sequence database. AltORFs overlap the annotated or reference protein coding ORF (RefORF) in an alternate reading frame, are located in the 5′- and 3′-UTR regions of an mRNA, or partially overlap with both the RefORF and an UTR region. This approach led to the discovery of 83,886 unique AltORFs with a minimum size of 40 codons Vanderperre B, 2013. The majority of mRNAs (87%) have at least one predicted AltORF, with an average of 3.88 AltORFs per mRNA. Additionally, the evolutionary conservation of many of these reading frames suggests functional importance. These AltORFs were translated in silico and included in an alternative protein database we used to interpret unmatched MS/MS spectra. So far, we and others have identified nearly 1300 alternative proteins in different human cell lines and tissues Vanderperre B, 2013, Klemke M, 2001 Oyama M, 2004 Vanderperre B, 2011 Bergeron D, 2013 Slavoff SA, 2013 Menschaert G, 2013, including certain of the 44 new proteins mentioned in the Kim et al. study: the alternative protein translated from the AltORFs mapping to the 5’-UTR of the SLC35A4 gene (or AltSLC35A4), was detected in Hela cells and lung tissue; the AltC11orf48 was detected in Hela cells, colon, lung and ovary tissues; and the AltCHTF8 was detected in Hela cells Vanderperre B, 2013. Twenty four of the 44 novel ORFs detected by Kim et al. were, in fact, already present in our AltORF database, and 9 of the 44 proteins translated from these novel ORFs were previously detected: AltASNSD1, AltSLC35A4, AltMKKS, AltSMCR7L, AltCHTF8, AltRPP14, AltSF1, AltC110rf48, AltHNRNPUL12. In this sense, Kim et al.`s study strongly supports the existence of the alternative proteome. Clearly, the alternative proteins detected by Kim et al. and by our team are the proverbial tip of the iceberg. A full map of the human proteome is thus still years away, and will require several important changes in our current thinking concerning the proteome and the concept that each mature mRNA only codes for one protein.

I could spend quite a long time talking about how fascinating this is, how little we know about proteins at present and how dogma has led us down a path to ignore an abundance of proteins just because they do not fit the standard model of thinking. It is truly amazing how little attention this line of work receives. For example, >90% of people I work with are PhD-level molecular and cellular biologists, and I have not yet met one who, when I have spoken of these things to them, is aware such layers of complexity exist. The dogma changes very slowly.

However what I wish to focus on are these AltORFs that are present in different reading frames of an already existing gene. Hopefully some of you will find this as utterly fascinating as I have. Hopefully some of you will even be able to think about the probabilistic implications to the evolutionary paradigm that this may (or may not) raise. I think most of us are fascinated by biology in one way or another so hopefully at least the first purpose will see some fulfilment.

As already discussed, a protein product is translated from an initial DNA code (via messenger RNA). This code is in triple – so 3 bases code for 1 amino acid, usually. However the reading frame is important. For example, consider the set of 3-letter words below:

THE CAT WAS NOT FAT

That makes sense and gives a message. Now let us change the way we read that by starting the 3-letter words from a reading frame shifted 1 letter over:

HEC ATW ASN OTF

What you notice is the message is completely lost – you cannot see any similarity to the first message, when looking at the triplets. Note – this is not one of those naïve attempts to use language to represent what happens with DNA code. That is different because in language you need to have particular combinations of letters to make the message viable. Whereas with DNA code, all you need are 3 of the four bases – any combination will give a message, either one of the 20 (usually) amino acids, or a stop code (or a start but that is the same as an amino acid, Met). That does not mean functionality of the polypeptide, but there is still a message. So this is just to illustrate you change the message – not you lose it!

Equally then, let us shift the reading frame over one again:

ECA TWA SNO TFA

All 3 messages are quite different. So what about with a DNA code and reading in different frames? Here is an example:

ATG CTT CAA TGC AGA TTC CCG GTT TCT TAG

Now ATG in DNA codes for the start codon and is a Methionine (M). TAG is one of several stop codons. So the translated result of such a code would be:

M-L-Q-C-R-F-P-V-S-*(STOP)

However, if you were to read in an alternative frame (shifted over 2 times from the original), you would see that starting at the 9th letter, we now observe a potential start codon of ATG appear:

(AT) GCT TCA ATG CAG ATT CCC GGT TTC CTT (AG)

This would then translate to (caveat – no stop codon here):

M-Q-I-P-G-F-L-…

As you can see, this looks quite different to the first peptidic sequence (ignoring the unavoidable starting Met). Given such a vastly different sequence, one may expect quite a different looking protein to be produced: a protein with different folds, structure and function (obviously this case is an example and neither sequence are long enough to be considered a “protein” as such but rather a short peptide, but this is merely to illustrate a principle).

So again, those that like to be fascinated by these things and consider paradigms let us consider a few things:

1) How does this affect the evolution of a protein when proposed to be through unguided processes?

2) What constraints are placed on apparent “neutral” or near-neutral mutations?

3) How does this affect the way you interpret an apparent “redundant” mutation in the DNA code?

4) Given the vastly different nature of the amino acid code (and thus strong chance of differing structure, folds and function), what are the probabilistic likelihood of such an alternative ORF (AltORF) encoding for a protein that plays a very close role with the common ORF it is found within?

Just to speak to some of those questions in particular with regards to points 1-3, I think broadly speaking this makes unguided evolution a lot harder. The reason being is any evolutionary changes to this region of overlapping ORFs in different frames means that a change has to be tolerated by BOTH proteins simultaneously. Where a mutation may have been neutral/near neutral before for the standard ORF now has to also be likewise (or beneficial) for the AltORF. As you are in a completely different reading frame, a conservative point mutation in the DNA code could very easily insert an aberrant stop codon for example into the AltORF. Suddenly, the layers are complicated (and this is just considering one single AltORF that overlaps). Thus without full understanding of the potential AltORFs present in a gene, one cannot simply state that a mutation is either a) neutral/near neutral/beneficial, b) redundant or c) conservative.

For example, in the above case we have as the 7th triplet in the original ORF, CCG which translates to a P (Proline). Let us say that we have a mutation from CCG to CCC – a single point mutation. This, in the original ORF is redundant – you still encode for a P. However, in the altORF that mutation has now changed a GGT to a CGT which is a Cysteine (C) to an Arginine (R). Those amino acids are not even close to being conservative (e.g. an L to a V might be considered a conservative change as these are both small hydrophobic residues). So you can see that the impact now of a single mutation which under the usual accepted paradigm of DNA code is seen as conservative or even redundant, suddenly becomes the opposite of this.

In part 2, I will try to review and summarise a paper that describes one such AltORF that overlaps with an existing normal gene, with implications in disease. Putting it into this context I think will help fascinate those of interest further, and also demonstrate some of the challenges unguided evolution must overcome.

Comments
First of all, what a interesting post, Dr. JDD. I very much appreciate your taking the time to write it up. Bornagain77 @ 3 expanded on Barry's comment on evolutionary conservation with the following:
Evolutionary conservation is a highly misleading way to infer functional importance.
I see what you mean—there's really no compelling evidence. It's simply an unproven assumption based on a faulty paradigm, circular logic, and ignorance. I liked your quote about “only” 8.2% of human DNA is functional and then a little further we get to read a quote that 10% of the human genome hasn't even been sequenced! That means that the 8.2% figure can only apply to the 90% known, and the .2% serves only to provide a false sense of precision. What's particularly astounding to everyone (except wd400) is that the importance of a gene have been shown not to correlate with its genetic age. Novel genes are just as likely to have a critical function as conserved ones. Things are getting curiouser and curiouser. The explanation for why the organism didn't go extinct before then will involve a lot of musta and mighta assertions. Dr. JDD's sports car analogy was great! I'd take it further by observing that while we're barely literate in sports car engines, some people are nevertheless adamant about the lack of function of the parts that they don't understand. They would vehemently argue that the cooling van is a vestigial aircraft propeller, or perhaps due to in-progress convergent car-volution, or perhaps only decorative. When an important function is later demonstrated for the cooling fan, and they are bludgeoned by the literature for a few decades, they accept it only with the greatest reluctance, and still insist that it constitutes only another 1% of the number of parts and that all the others are still non-functional! Thus, ever-so-slowly, various sects of evolutionists are dragged kicking and screaming down the road of scientific progress. Thanks again. -QQuerius
May 30, 2015
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How come when I read one of your posts Popperian I am reminded of this quip from Berlinski?
‘Man, that thing is just a mess. It’s like looking into a room full of smoke.’ Berlinski ‘Before you can ask ‘Is Darwinian theory correct or not?’, You have to ask the preliminary question ‘Is it clear enough so that it could be correct?’. That’s a very different question. One of my prevailing doctrines about Darwinian theory is ‘Man, that thing is just a mess. It’s like looking into a room full of smoke.’ Nothing in the theory is precisely, clearly, carefully defined or delineated. It lacks all of the rigor one expects from mathematical physics, and mathematical physics lacks all the rigor one expects from mathematics. So we’re talking about a gradual descent down the level of intelligibility until we reach evolutionary biology.’ David Berlinski - EXPELLED - video (29:31 minute mark) https://youtu.be/V5EPymcWp-g?t=1768 Dr. David Berlinski: - extended interview - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEDYr_fgcP8&index=2&list=PLF9DB30F6802BC5CE
bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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Dr JDD, I am currently reading Code Biology: A New Science of Life. Very interesting stuff. BA77, Trifonov's work is mentioned a few times.Mung
May 30, 2015
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Dr JDD,
Take for example all cars ever built. There are certain “conserved” parts. Given you usually always see a steering wheel, if assessing all the cars with no other knowledge of cars you could rightly predict that is probably an important component for functionality, broadly speaking. .
Human designers are the best explanation for human designed things. This is because human designers are not abstract and have defined limitations, such as finite amount of knowledge. Which, in turn, results in a finite amount of resources, time, etc. The specific kind of concrete common design we observe is explained by these limitations. Exotic cars have fewer common parts, but can take months to construct and cost significantly more to build. In contrast, today's automobile manufactures do not produce entirely new platforms every year because it would be too resource intensive to design, test and retool factories to build. We lack the knowledge to do so cost effectively. Consumers, who have limited resources, cannot afford them, etc. Adding extraneous parts would drive up the cost even more. However, in the future, human designers will have created the necessary knowledge to build entirely new vehicles inexpensively and efficiently. So much so, that they could build one-off cars for each customer sharing absolutely no common parts at all. And they will do so using advances in artificial intelligence, physics simulations and construction techniques based on today's 3D printers. For example, non-engineers will be able to design their own vehicles with the help of advanced artificial intelligence, which will be safety tested using advanced simulations and built just for them in their own garage. Eventually, the materials of an existing vehicle could be reused to reduce the cost even more. As such, the overhead of adding extraneous parts, or even non-standard controls, would be very low, should the user decide to add them on a whim. So, your argument breaks down, even in the case of human designers. In other words, your argument implicitly assumes we will not create the necessary significant knowledge to contradict it. This comes as no surprise as ID proponents grossly underestimate the role that knowledge plays in design.
The observation of “conservation” however is entirely consistent with a common designer and reuse of blueprints much like we see shared blueprints for cars.
Actually, it's not. This is because ID's designer is abstract and has no defined limitations. As such, it has no limits what it knows, when it knew it, etc. In turn, it has no limits on resources, time etc. to act as a constraint for reuse. Nothing but the laws of physics would constraint it, if even that, as it supposedly designed those as well. Eventually human designed things will have considerably less in common, despite humans being finite. So, for ID's designer to be consistent, it would have to become considerably less abstract by nature of positing concrete limitations to constrain it. However, that's simply not going to happen. ID's designer is abstract, by design.Popperian
May 30, 2015
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Thirty Years of Multiple Sequence Codes - Edward N. Trifonov - 2011 How Many “Second Genetic Codes”? Excerpt: According to the media sympathetic to science and enthusiastic about sensational discoveries, the “Second Genetic Code” as it was called by New York Times (8) was discovered by Ya-Ming Hou and Paul Schimmel and published in Nature in 1988 (9). It was about recognition of tRNAs by respective aminoa- cyl-tRNA synthetases. Thirteen years later New Scientist announced the second Second Genetic Code (13), discovered by Jenuwein and Allis (14) and published in Science. This time it was about histone modifications. Five years later, New York Times, again, reported about “a second code in DNA in addition to the genetic code” (15). This was already the third Second Genetic Code, discovered by Segal et al (16), sug- gesting now nucleosome positioning rules. One, surely, would raise eyebrows having learned that there is also the fourth Second Genetic Code (17)—on in- teraction specificities between proteins and DNA, and the fifth Second Genetic Code, the name given by Nature magazine (18) to the set of rules governing gene splicing(19). Bewildered reader, naturally, would say “I’m done with seconds, can I have a third?” (20) The conclusion from the above is obvious: one has to admit that the genetic sequences carry many different codes. If we are to know what the sequences are about, we have to detect and decipher these codes. The times of surrender to “junk” and “selfish DNA” are over, and “non-coding” becomes a misnomer.,,, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1672022911600016
At the 10:30 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Trifonov states that the idea of the selfish gene 'inflicted an immense damage to biological sciences', for over 30 years:
Second, third, fourth… genetic codes - One spectacular case of code crowding - Edward N. Trifonov - video https://vimeo.com/81930637
In the preceding video, Trifonov elucidates codes that are, simultaneously, in the same sequence, coding for DNA curvature, Chromatin Code, Amphipathic helices, and NF kappaB. In fact, at the 58:00 minute mark he states, "Reading only one message, one gets three more, practically GRATIS!". And please note that this was just an introductory lecture in which Trifinov just covered the very basics and left many of the other codes out of the lecture. Codes which code for completely different, yet still biologically important, functions. In fact, at the 7:55 mark of the video, there are 13 codes that are listed on a powerpoint, although the writing was too small for me to read. Concluding powerpoint of the lecture (at the 1 hour mark): "Not only are there many different codes in the sequences, but they overlap, so that the same letters in a sequence may take part simultaneously in several different messages." Edward N. Trifonov - 2010 Here are some more notes on overlapping coding:
Multiple genetic codes Excerpt: Trifonov,, was also the first one to demonstrate[20] that there are multiple codes present in the DNA. He points out that even so called non-coding DNA has a function, i.e. contains codes, although different from the triplet code. Trifonov recognizes[19]:5–10 specific codes in the DNA, RNA and proteins:,, chromatin code (Trifonov 1980) RNA-to-protein translation code (triplet code) framing code (Trifonov 1987) translation pausing code (Makhoul & Trifonov 2002) protein folding code (Berezovsky, Grosberg & Trifonov 2000) fast adaptation codes (Trifonov 1989) binary code (Trifonov 2006) genome segmentation code (Kolker & Trifonov 1995) The codes can overlap[19]:10 each other so that up to 4 different codes can be identified in one DNA sequence (specifically a sequence involved in a nucleosome). According to Trifonov, other codes are yet to be discovered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Trifonov#Multiple_genetic_codes The multiple codes of nucleotide sequences. Trifonov EN. - 1989 Excerpt: Nucleotide sequences carry genetic information of many different kinds, not just instructions for protein synthesis (triplet code). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2673451 Trifanov EN - Genetic sequences as products of compression by inclusive superposition of many codes. Mol Biol 31:647–654. - 1997 Excerpt: The genomic DNA sequence is, therefore, an unusual example of natural sequence compression where, apparently, each single symbol not only is not wasted, but is also used simultaneously in many superimposed messages. http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/histcomp/alberts_na-auth-citing/node/6766.html Codes of biosequences - E. N. Trifonov - 2007 http://is.muni.cz/el/1431/jaro2007/Bi_IB8/Codes_of_biosequences.pdf Multiple levels of meaning in DNA sequences, and one more. - Trifonov EN, Volkovich Z, Frenkel ZM. - 2012 Excerpt: If we define a genetic code as a widespread DNA sequence pattern that carries a message with an impact on biology, then there are multiple genetic codes. Sequences involved in these codes overlap and, thus, both interact with and constrain each other, such as for the triplet code, the intron-splicing code, the code for amphipathic alpha helices, and the chromatin code. Nucleosomes preferentially are located at the ends of exons, thus protecting splice junctions, with the N9 positions of guanines of the GT and AG junctions oriented toward the histones.,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22954214
bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 - published online May 2013 Excerpt: In the last decade, we have discovered still another aspect of the multi- dimensional genome. We now know that DNA sequences are typically “ poly-functional” [38]. Trifanov previously had described at least 12 genetic codes that any given nucleotide can contribute to [39,40], and showed that a given base-pair can contribute to multiple overlapping codes simultaneously. The first evidence of overlapping protein-coding sequences in viruses caused quite a stir, but since then it has become recognized as typical. According to Kapronov et al., “it is not unusual that a single base-pair can be part of an intricate network of multiple isoforms of overlapping sense and antisense transcripts, the majority of which are unannotated” [41]. The ENCODE project [42] has confirmed that this phenomenon is ubiquitous in higher genomes, wherein a given DNA sequence routinely encodes multiple overlapping messages, meaning that a single nucleotide can contribute to two or more genetic codes. Most recently, Itzkovitz et al. analyzed protein coding regions of 700 species, and showed that virtually all forms of life have extensive overlapping information in their genomes [43]. 38. Sanford J (2008) Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome. FMS Publications, NY. Pages 131–142. 39. Trifonov EN (1989) Multiple codes of nucleotide sequences. Bull of Mathematical Biology 51:417–432. 40. Trifanov EN (1997) Genetic sequences as products of compression by inclusive superposition of many codes. Mol Biol 31:647–654. 41. Kapranov P, et al (2005) Examples of complex architecture of the human transcriptome revealed by RACE and high density tiling arrays. Genome Res 15:987–997. 42. Birney E, et al (2007) Encode Project Consortium: Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. Nature 447:799–816. 43. Itzkovitz S, Hodis E, Sega E (2010) Overlapping codes within protein-coding sequences. Genome Res. 20:1582–1589. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0006 Overlapping Genetic Codes 12-6-2014 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WZy0n60_ZU In the book "Biological Information: New Perspectives" Chapters 6 and 9 (at least) argue that stretches of DNA can have multiple functions encoded into them. We will partially evaluate the strength of the evidence behind that argument. 1. Marks, R. J. II et al. 2013. Biological Information: New Perspectives. Hackensack, NJ: World Scientific Publishing Co. Pte. Ltd. - Book available in sections at http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/8818#t=toc 2. Kapranov P., et al. 2005. Examples of complex architecture of the human transcriptome revealed by RACE and high density tiling arrays. Genome Res 15:987–997. Available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172043/ 3. Birney E., et al. (Encode Project Consortium) 2007. Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. Nature 447:799–816. Available at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v447/n7146/full/nature05874.html 4. Itzkovitz S., Hodis E., Sega E. 2010. Overlapping codes within protein-coding sequences. Genome Res. 20:1582–1589. Available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20841429 5. He H., et al. 2007. Mapping the C. elegant noncoding transcriptome with a whole genome tiling microarray. Genome Res 17:1471-1477. Available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17785534 6. http://www.mcld.co.uk/hiv/?q=HIV%20genome 7. http://nsmn1.uh.edu/dgraur/niv/sabath_phd_thesis.pdf
etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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With the advance of science, and with the revealing of more and more astonishing, even unbelievable, levels of extremely sophisticated integrated complexity being found in the genome, I find the Darwinian belief that the vast majority of the genome is junk to be a sure mark that Darwinists have completely lost any semblance of rational objectivity in their analysis of the evidence. IMHO, for Darwinists, the Darwinian paradigm takes precedence no matter what the evidence may say to the contrary. They simply completely refuse to entertain the thought that Darwinian evolution may be false. Here are a few notes as to the astonishing complexity being dealt with:
DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis - video http://vimeo.com/33882804 Dr. Jerry Bergman, "Divine Engineering: Unraveling DNA's Design": The DNA packing process is both complex and elegant and is so efficient that it achieves a reduction in length of DNA by a factor of 1 million. http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/if_darwin_had_known/if_darwin_had_known06.php#dipnot 3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm Comprehensive Mapping of Long-Range Interactions Reveals Folding Principles of the Human Genome - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: At the megabase scale, the chromatin conformation is consistent with a fractal globule, a knot-free, polymer conformation that enables maximally dense packing while preserving the ability to easily fold and unfold any genomic locus. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/326/5950/289 Scientists' 3-D View of Genes-at-Work Is Paradigm Shift in Genetics - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Highly coordinated chromosomal choreography leads genes and the sequences controlling them, which are often positioned huge distances apart on chromosomes, to these 'hot spots'. Once close together within the same transcription factory, genes get switched on (a process called transcription) at an appropriate level at the right time in a specific cell type. This is the first demonstration that genes encoding proteins with related physiological role visit the same factory. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091215160649.htm Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm Biochemical Turing Machines “Reboot” the Watchmaker Argument - Fazale Rana - July 2012 Excerpt: ,,DNA has the capacity to store an enormous quantity of information. One gram of DNA can house as much information as nearly 1 trillion CDs. And a third benefit is that DNA computing operates near the theoretical capacity with regard to energy efficiency. per steve brown net Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Ten years on, still much to be learned from human genome map - April 12, 2013 Excerpt:,,,"What we've learned over the past 10 years is that we're still far from really understanding the complexity of the human genome," said Eric Schadt, chairman of genetics and genomic sciences at Mount Sinai Icahn School of Medicine in New York City. "Human disease is way more complicated than the old view that single hits to single genes cause diseases. "In most forms of diseases, it's whole constellations of genes operating in networks," Schadt explained. "That becomes a much harder problem. How do you target networks with a single drug?,, (Or vice versa, how do single mutations to single genes incrementally build "constellations of genes operating in networks" in the first place?),,, "We keep learning how much we really don't know and how much further we need to go," he added. "That's the big story.",,, What's more, about 10 percent of the human genome still hasn't been sequenced and can't be sequenced by existing technology, Green added. "There are parts of the genome we didn't know existed back when the genome was completed," he said.,,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-04-ten-years-human-genome.html The Complexity of Gene Expression, Protein Interaction, and Cell Differentiation - Jill Adams, Ph.D. - 2008 Excerpt: it seems that a single protein can have dozens, if not hundreds, of different interactions,,, In a commentary that accompanied Stumpf's article, Luis Nunes Amaral (2008) wrote, "These numbers provide a sobering view of where we stand in our cataloging of the human interactome. At present, we have identified less than 0.3% of all estimated interactions among human proteins. We are indeed at the dawn of systems biology." http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-complexity-of-gene-expression-protein-interaction-34575
bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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Barry
Why would evolutionary conservation necessarily predict functional importance? After all, we constantly hear that evolution also accounts for vestigial organs and junk DNA (not so much the latter anymore).
Why? Because neo-Darwisnism falls under the same umbrella as our current, best universal explanation for how knowledge grows. Specifically, theories are not out there for us to mechanically derive from observations. As such, explanatory theories are essentially guesses about how the world works, which are not guaranteed to actually solve the problems they are proposed to solve. For the same reason, we have no guarantee that those same theories will not solve other problems they were not conjectured to solve, either Even in the case of human designers, functional importance isn't guaranteed to occur, regardless of our intention to bring it about. When it does, it's the idea or functionally itself, in that solves some problem, that is key, not the original problem or the source. So, your question is based on a specific epistemological view you hold, not evolutionary theory itself. Note: I'm not a ID proponent because I've failed to take into account what we know about human designers. Rather, I'm not a ID proponent precisely because I've taken what we know about human designers into account. Intention simply isn't sufficient.Popperian
May 30, 2015
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wd400 claims that: "For instance evolutionary conservation and nothing else (phyloP) is a pretty good predictor of how bad a mutation will be in humans" Actually where mutations are most likely to be 'always catastrophically bad' are in the regulatory regions where 'orders of magnitude' differences are found between species.
Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F "Where (chimps and humans) really differ, and they differ by orders of magnitude, is in the genomic architecture outside the protein coding regions. They are vastly, vastly, different.,, The structural, the organization, the regulatory sequences, the hierarchy for how things are organized and used are vastly different between a chimpanzee and a human being in their genomes." Raymond Bohlin (per Richard Sternberg) - 9:29 minute mark of video https://vimeo.com/106012299 A Listener's Guide to the Meyer-Marshall Debate: Focus on the Origin of Information Question -Casey Luskin - December 4, 2013 Excerpt: "There is always an observable consequence if a dGRN (developmental gene regulatory network) subcircuit is interrupted. Since these consequences are always catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected, the whole network partakes of the quality that there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species develop in only one way." - Eric Davidson http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/12/a_listeners_gui079811.html Darwin's Doubt (Part 8) by Paul Giem - developmental gene regulatory networks and epigenetic information - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLl6wrqd1e0&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t&index=8 How to Build a Worm - Paul Nelson - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDQ0NJQ_z3U Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/
Thus, where Darwinists most need plasticity in the genome to be viable as a theory, (i.e. developmental Gene Regulatory Networks), is the place where mutations are found to be 'always catastrophically bad'. Yet, it is exactly in this area of the genome (i.e. regulatory networks) where substantial, ‘orders of magnitude’, differences are found between even supposedly closely related species. Needless to say, this is the exact opposite finding for what Darwinism would have predicted for what should have been found in the genome.bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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Hi Mung, Thanks for your comments. In part 2 I go through a case example from the literature and it seems to be conserved at least among higher mammals. Interestingly while the typical protein shows high homology (80-odd % to mouse if I recall correctly) however the predicted altORF in the same gene (different frame) is as low as 30-odd % homologous. It's an interesting example and curious to know how widespread it is.Dr JDD
May 30, 2015
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Thanks Dr JDD. I suppose that conserved regions might be a good place to look for overlapping genes. Another approach could involve identifying overlapping regions and then looking to see whether they are conserved, and if so how far back in time that seems to have been the case.Mung
May 30, 2015
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Right, but that was in answer to Barry's question, where he seems to think claiming conservation is correlated to function is contradictory to claiming evolution can create junk DNA. You might not like that particular argument for junkiness of our DNA, but it certainly doesn't contradict the correlation between conservation and function.wd400
May 30, 2015
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wd400 said:
one reason to think most of the DNA in the human genome is junk the absence of conservation
Dr JDD
May 30, 2015
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What are you on about? I was answering Barry's question, you seem to be talking about something.... else?wd400
May 30, 2015
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wd400 If you take your head out of the materialist paradigm and a priori commitment to naturalistic evolution with UCD your last statement looks like one "reason" but not a very good one. Take for example all cars ever built. There are certain "conserved" parts. Given you usually always see a steering wheel, if assessing all the cars with no other knowledge of cars you could rightly predict that is probably an important component for functionality, broadly speaking. The mistake to make would to be to then look at a very complex sports car that contains some parts not found in simpler cars and assume they perform no useful or even vital function. Yet there are many complex sports cars that contain essential parts for their functionality that are not found in simpler cars. Just because you do not know the function of that part does not make it functionless. The observation of "conservation" however is entirely consistent with a common designer and reuse of blueprints much like we see shared blueprints for cars. However what would ID predict? It may predict that in more complex organisms we see additional components and functionality to account for the complexity. Evo could predict that too however I think many realise they are in a catch 22 situation if they say that as there are only so many genes neutral drift could account for in the time frames and mutation rates believed be observed. So therefore evos choose to pretend as tho only conserved sequences of DNA actually matter. This approach quite frankly, severely retards scientific progress.Dr JDD
May 30, 2015
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Why would evolutionary conservation necessarily predict functional importance
I don't know about "necessary" but it's certainly true. For instance evolutionary conservation and nothing else (phyloP) is a pretty good predictor of how bad a mutation will be in humans: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003143
After all, we constantly hear that evolution also accounts for vestigial organs and junk DNA (not so much the latter anymore).
Well... yeah... one reason to think most of the DNA in the human genome is junk the absence of conservation.... this is hardly contradictory!wd400
May 30, 2015
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Mr. Arrington as to: "Why would evolutionary conservation necessarily predict functional importance?" It, as you pointed out, doesn't. Evolutionary conservation is a highly misleading way to infer functional importance. In fact, it was by appeal to supposed evolutionary conservation that the Darwinian critics of the ENCODE study, which found widespread functionality for 'junk' DNA, that the Darwinian critics tried to undermine the finding of widespread functionality in the genome:
DNA mostly 'junk?' Only 8.2 percent of human DNA is 'functional', study finds - July 24, 2014 Excerpt: To reach their (8.2%) figure, the Oxford University group took advantage of the ability of evolution to discern which activities matter and which do not. They identified how much of our genome has avoided accumulating changes over 100 million years of mammalian evolution -- a clear indication that this DNA matters, it has some important function that needs to be retained. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140724141608.htm
So basically, for these Darwinists, functionality did not determine if a sequence is actually functional, only 'conservation of sequence' determined what was functional. In other words, only if Darwinian evolution, (universal common descent), was assumed as true at the outset will Darwinists accept that a given sequence of 'junk' DNA may be functional! That is called 'assuming your conclusion into your premise' and is absolutely horrible science! Apparently some researchers in ENCODE were not so easily intimidated by Darwinists and they fired back with this:
Protracted Unrest Between ENCODE Researchers and Junk-DNA Advocates Goes On - November 26, 2014 Excerpt: In short, the Mouse ENCODE group takes direct aim at the arguments of Dan Graur and the other junk-DNA faithful, who say that everything evolution did not conserve is junk.,,, ,,,much of what Darwinian evolutionists had dismissed as junk appears functional. Non-coding regions of the mouse genome are transcribed, and appear to function in previously unimagined ways, such as regulation of gene expression, chromosomal stability, and maintenance of species identity. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/protracted_unre091501.html
Of related interest, and completely contrary to evolutionary thought, 'new' ORFan genes, which are definitely not evolutionarily conserved, and many times are found in only one species, are found to be just as essential as 'old' genes for maintaining life:
Age doesn't matter: New genes are as essential as ancient ones - December 2010 Excerpt: "A new gene is as essential as any other gene; the importance of a gene is independent of its age," said Manyuan Long, PhD, Professor of Ecology & Evolution and senior author of the paper. "New genes are no longer just vinegar, they are now equally likely to be butter and bread. We were shocked." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101216142523.htm New genes in Drosophila quickly become essential. - December 2010 Excerpt: The proportion of genes that are essential is similar in every evolutionary age group that we examined. Under constitutive silencing of these young essential genes, lethality was high in the pupal (later) stage and (but was) also found in the larval (early) stages. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/330/6011/1682.abstract
This following study, in which the functional roles of ORFan genes in humans were analyzed, the (Darwinian) researchers were 'very shocked' and 'taken aback' by what they found;
New Genes, New Brain - October 2011 Excerpt: “This is one of the first studies to look at the role of completely novel genes” in primate brain development,,, A bevy of genes known to be active during human fetal and infant development first appeared at the same time that the prefrontal cortex,,, Finally, 54 of the 280 genes found to be unique to humans were also highly expressed in the developing prefrontal cortex,,,, “We were very shocked that there were that many new genes that were upregulated in this part of the brain,” said Long, who added that he was also taken aback by synchronicity of the origin of the genes and the development of novel brain structures.,,, (From the PLoS article, author’s summary: We found these genes are scattered across the whole genome, demonstrating that they are generated by many independent events,,, Our data reveal that evolutionary change in the development of the human brain happened at the protein level by gene origination,,) http://the-scientist.com/2011/10/19/new-genes-new-brain/
Needless to say, as the preceding studies highlight, presupposing the functional importance of a sequence in the genome solely through evolutionary conservation is a hindrance to determining true functional importance in the genome. And is, as such, another prime example of Darwinian presuppositions hindering biological science rather than driving it forward.bornagain77
May 30, 2015
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Since first becoming aware of it, I have thought this precludes any notion of 'evolution' involving DNA. End of story. And what if, still another layer in the coding is found? It certainly is just naturally fascinating.butifnot
May 30, 2015
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From the article quoted in the OP:
Additionally, the evolutionary conservation of many of these reading frames suggests functional importance.
Why would evolutionary conservation necessarily predict functional importance? After all, we constantly hear that evolution also accounts for vestigial organs and junk DNA (not so much the latter anymore).Barry Arrington
May 30, 2015
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