Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On Active Information, search, Islands of Function and FSCO/I

Categories
ID Foundations
rhetoric
specified complexity
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

A current rhetorical tack of objections to the design inference has two facets:

(a) suggesting or implying that by moving research focus to Active Information needle in haystack search-challenge linked Specified Complexity has been “dispensed with” [thus,too, related concepts such as FSCO/I]; and

(b) setting out to dismiss Active Information, now considered in isolation.

Both of these rhetorical gambits are in error.

However, just because a rhetorical assertion or strategy is erroneous does not mean that it is unpersuasive; especially for those inclined that way in the first place.

So, there is a necessity for a corrective.

First, let us observe how Marks and Dembski began their 2010 paper, in its abstract:

Needle-in-the-haystack problems look for small targets in large spaces. In such cases, blind search stands no hope of success. Conservation of information dictates any search technique will work, on average, as well as blind search. Success requires an assisted search. But whence the assistance required for a search to be successful? To pose the question this way suggests that successful searches do not emerge spontaneously but need themselves to be discovered via a search. The question then naturally arises whether such a higher-level “search for a search” is any easier than the original search. We prove two results: (1) The Horizontal No Free Lunch Theorem, which shows that average relative performance of searches never exceeds unassisted or blind searches, and (2) The Vertical No Free Lunch Theorem, which shows that the difficulty of searching for a successful search increases exponentially with respect to the minimum allowable active information being sought.

That is, the context of active information and associated search for a good search, is exactly that of finding isolated targets Ti in large configuration spaces W, that then pose a needle in haystack search challenge. Or, as I have represented this so often here at UD:

csi_defnUpdating to reflect the bridge to the origin of life challenge:

islands_of_func_chall

In this model, we see how researchers on evolutionary computing typically confine their work to tractable cases where a dust of random walk searches with drift due to a presumably gentle slope on what looks like a fairly flat surface is indeed likely to converge on multiple zones of sharply rising function, which then allows identification of likely local peaks of function. The researcher in view then has a second tier search across peaks to achieve a global maximum.

This of course contrasts with the FSCO/I [= functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information] case where

a: due to a need for multiple well-matched parts that

b: must be correctly arranged and coupled together

c: per a functionally specific wiring diagram

d: to attain the particular interactions that achieve function, and so

e: will be tied to an information-rich wiring diagram that

f: may be described and quantified informationally by using

g: a structured list of y/n q’s forming a descriptive bit string

. . . we naturally see instead isolated zones of function Ti amidst a much larger sea of non-functional clustered or scattered arrangements of parts.

This may be illustrated by an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel exploded view assembly diagram:

abu_6500c3mag

. . . which may be compared to the organisation of a petroleum refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system
Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

. . . and to that of the cellular protein synthesis system:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)
Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

. . . and onward the cellular metabolic process network (with the above being the small corner top left):

cell_metabolism

(NB: I insist on presenting this cluster of illustrations to demonstrate to all but the willfully obtuse, that FSCO/I is real, unavoidably familiar and pivotally relevant to origin of cell based life discussions, with implications onward for body plans that must unfold from an embryo or the like, OOL and OOBP.)

Now, in their 2013 paper on generalising their analysis, Marks, Dembski and Ewert begin:

All but the most trivial searches are needle-in-the-haystack problems. Yet many searches successfully locate needles in haystacks. How is this possible? A success-ful search locates a target in a manageable number of steps. According to conserva-tion of information, nontrivial searches can be successful only by drawing on existing external information, outputting no more information than was inputted [1]. In previous work, we made assumptions that limited the generality of conservation of information, such as assuming that the baseline against which search perfor-mance is evaluated must be a uniform probability distribution or that any query of the search space yields full knowledge of whether the candidate queried is inside or outside the target. In this paper, we remove such constraints and show that | conservation of information holds quite generally. We continue to assume that tar-gets are fixed. Search for fuzzy and moveable targets will be the topic of future research by the Evolutionary Informatics Lab.

In generalizing conservation of information, we first generalize what we mean by targeted search. The first three sections of this paper therefore develop a general approach to targeted search. The upshot of this approach is that any search may be represented as a probability distribution on the space being searched. Readers who are prepared to accept that searches may be represented in this way can skip to section 4 and regard the first three sections as stage-setting. Nonetheless, we sug-gest that readers study these first three sections, if only to appreciate the full gen-erality of the approach to search we are proposing and also to understand why attempts to circumvent conservation of information via certain types of searches fail. Indeed, as we shall see, such attempts to bypass conservation of information look to searches that fall under the general approach outlined here; moreover, conservation of information, as formalized here, applies to all these cases . . .

So, again, the direct relevance of FSCO/I and linked needle in haystack search challenge continues.

Going further, we may now focus:

is_ o_func2_activ_info

In short, active information is a bridge that allows us to pass to relevant zones of FSCO/I, Ti, and to cross plateaus and intervening valleys in an island of function that does not exhibit a neatly behaved objective function. And, it is reasonable to measure it’s impact based on search improvement, in informational terms. (Where, it may only need to give a hint, try here and scratch around a bit: warmer/colder/hot-hot-hot. AI itself does not have to give the sort of detailed wiring diagram description associated with FSCO/I.)

It must be deeply understood, that the dominant aspect of the situation is resource sparseness confronting a blind needle in haystack search. A reasonably random blind search will not credibly outperform the overwhelmingly likely failure of the yardstick, flat random search. Too much stack, too few search resources, too little time. And a drastically improved search, a golden search if you will, itself has to be found before it becomes relevant.

That means, searching for a good search.

Where, a search on a configuration space W, is a sample of its subsets. That is, it is a member of the power set of W, which has cardinality 2^W. Thus it is plausible that such a search will be much harder than a direct fairly random search.  (And yes, one may elaborate an analysis to address that point, but it is going to come back to much the same conclusion.)

Further, consider the case where the pictured zones are like sandy barrier islands, shape-shifting and able to move. That is, they are dynamic.

This will not affect the dominant challenge, which is to get to an initial Ti for OOL then onwards to get to further islands Tj etc for OOBP.  That is doubtless a work in progress over at the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, but is already patent from the challenge in the main.

To give an outline idea, let me clip a summary of the needle-to-stack challenge:

Our observed cosmos has in it some 10^80 atoms, and a good atomic-level clock-tick is a fast chem rxn rate of perhaps 10^-14 s. 13.7 bn y ~10^17 s. The number of atom-scale events in that span in the observed cosmos is thus of order 10^111.

The number of configs for 1,000 coins (or, bits) is 2^1,000 ~ 1.07*10^301.

That is, if we were to give each atom of the observed cosmos a tray of 1,000 coins, and toss and observe then process 10^14 times per second, the resources of the observed cosmos would sample up to 1 in 10^190 of the set of possibilities.

It is reasonable to deem such a blind search, whether contiguous or a dust, as far too sparse to have any reasonable likelihood of finding any reasonably isolated “needles” in the haystack of possibilities. A rough calc suggests that the ratio is comparable to a single straw drawn from a cubical haystack ~ 2 * 10^45 LY across. (Our observed cosmos may be ~ 10^11 LY across, i.e. the imaginary haystack would swallow up our observed cosmos.)

Of course, as posts in this thread amply demonstrate the “miracle” of intelligently directed configuration allows us to routinely produce cases of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information well beyond such a threshold. For an ASCII text string 1,000 bits is about 143 characters, the length of a Twitter post.

As just genomes for OOL  start out at 100 – 1,000 k bases and those for OOBP credibly run like 10 – 100+ mn bases, this is a toy illustration of the true magnitude of the problem.

The context and challenge addressed by the active information concept is blind needle in haystack search challenge, and so also FSCO/I. The only actually observed adequate cause of FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration, aka design. And per further experience, design works by injecting active information coming from a self-moved agent cause capable of rational contemplation and creative synthesis.

So, FSCO/I remains as best explained on design. In fact, per a trillion member base of observations, it is a reliable sign of it. Which has very direct implications for our thought on OOL and OOBP.

Or, it should. END

Comments
Elizabeth:
It’s guided by the element in the program that represents the environment.
It is actively guided towards a solution. It does exactly what I said earlier, in the other thread.
In the real world, that guidance is provided by the real environment.
In the real world a diverse group of organisms share the same environment. In the real world it is a process of elimination in which whatever is good enough survives and reproduces.
Well, “fitness” in this context simply means “how well you breed”. The “less fit” are simply those who breed less than their peers or parents, whereas the “more fit” are those who breed more than their peers or parents. A “less fit” parent can still breed, and sometimes, its descendents prove to be extra fit.
Exactly. That you cannot see how impotent such a process is is beyond me.
It is not the case that “natural selection” is simply an elimination process.
Sure it is. It's just that what gets eliminated and how quickly, can change. Computers programs use actual selection whereas natural selection is mere elimination. The two processes are very different as I, via Mayr, explained earlier.
No, both processes are the same.
You are absolutely loonie. Mayr went over the differences in "What Evolution Is". Only selection can produce dog breeds. Without selection there would never have been any. In selection only a SELECT few get to survive whereas with elimination only a select few are eliminated. Which selection there is an actual objective to the survival and reproduction of the selected. With elimination the objective is met with survival and reproduction. Whatever is good enough survives, and that changes and can be many different existing variants.
And once the process starts, no further designer-input is necessary.
Exactly. That is the whole purpose. However we have to have a mechanism capable of explaining the diversity of life. Changes to genetics doesn't seem to be capable. Everything we observe says that genetic change offers limited physiological change. There aren't any cases of small changes that we can extrapolate into large changes. Anti-biotic resistance and beak changes are about existing variation. Peppered moths- existing variation.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
The fact that the physics, the chemistry, the environment, and the initial population are all designed is irrelevant. They aren't just "all designed." They are designed for a purpose and they are designed to serve the same purpose. The different aspects are all designed to work together. See @ 120. And that's all irrelevant? You're a hoot.Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
Mike:
Incorrect. They are also guided by the processes, systems, information, limits and constraints inherent in the replicators themselves.
OK, accepted. But all those things have natural counterparts that do not require an intentional designer. Sure, you can set up a system in which the results are highly constrained. But many systems exist in which the results are highly constrained, but we do not say: aha! It must have been designed. "Guided" as in "constrained by high granite cliffs" is not the same meaing of "guided" as "led by someone who knows the way and will take you to where she wants you to go". If all people mean by "guided evolution" is "evolution constained by the laws of physics and chemistry" then, sure, all evolution is "guided". But that tells us nothing about whether a designer is involved, and I can certainly tell you that in computer evolution, once the thing is set up, you sit back and wait for the result. No Designer Intervention required. So if all IDers are saying is that a Designer must have been required to set up the evolutionary system that produced us, then, fine. But in that case, stop beating up on poor old Darwin!Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
Zachriel and I actually agree on something:
The genotypes have to correlate to the landscape. If they don’t, then an evolutionary algorithm will not work.
It's a new day here at UD.Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
Joe:
Elizabeth, Just because no one knows what the solution will be doesn’t mean the process is unguided. Obviously the solution is guided by the program.
It's guided by the element in the program that represents the environment. In the real world, that guidance is provided by the real environment. Not by a designer. And it is only "guidance" in the "hunt the thimble" sense. The environment, whether in nature or in the computer, simply says "warmer" or "cooler" - in other words only provides feedback as to how good the current state is, not whether the population is travelling towards some goal.
With unguided evolution the variation has to already exist when the environment changes. The less fit get eliminated.
Well, "fitness" in this context simply means "how well you breed". The "less fit" are simply those who breed less than their peers or parents, whereas the "more fit" are those who breed more than their peers or parents. A "less fit" parent can still breed, and sometimes, its descendents prove to be extra fit. It is not the case that "natural selection" is simply an elimination process.
Computers programs use actual selection whereas natural selection is mere elimination. The two processes are very different as I, via Mayr, explained earlier.
No, both processes are the same. In both, those who breed most, leave most offspring (by definition) and those who breed less, leave fewer offspring (by definition). Therefore, each generation will be enriched with the genes of the parents who left the most children. In a computer, you can do it in various ways: eliminate those who score lowest, and breed to replace them from those who score better. But it's usually best to make it probabilistic - if you are too rigid with your elimination, you will often lose slightly weird variants with the capacity to leave offspring with something novel and useful. In Nature, the probabilistic part is built in - sometimes a super-stud will get unlucky and die in a landslide; at other times a runt will just happen to mate with a superstud. But the end result is the same - those that breed most will leave more of their genes in future generations than those that breed least. Therefore those genes for those features that increase their bearer's chance of breeding in the current environmetn will become more prevalent. There really is no difference between the computer version and the Nature version, except that in the computer version we have to design the chemistry, the environment, and the starting population, whereas in Nature we have them already there before the process starts. And once the process starts, no further designer-input is necessary.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle: Blind is precisely what it is – it cannot “see” beyond the current generation.
One could say that of a robot that's programmed to make it's way around a room. Would you call a robot that's programmed to handle environmental challenges "blind" because it cannot see beyond it's next move? Even "blind" humans are not blind in the Darwinian sense you seem to be asserting. There are sophisticated processes and informational systems in play that shape and constrain the outcome in addition to the environment. The nature of the object is part of the determining factor of any result. Not merely the environment.mike1962
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, Just because no one knows what the solution will be doesn't mean the process is unguided. Obviously the solution is guided by the program. With unguided evolution the variation has to already exist when the environment changes. The less fit get eliminated. Computers programs use actual selection whereas natural selection is mere elimination. The two processes are very different as I, via Mayr, explained earlier.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PDT
AGAIN- with unguided evolution the only goal is survival and reproduction. And guess what? It starts with that so the goal is already met. Everything else is just contingent serendipity doo-dah.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
Mike:
Of course they are relevant. The nature of the initial population (the systems, processes and control information they contain) determines to some extent what kinds of variations are even possible for any putative selection to act on. If I program a GA that searches for optimized antennas, it is not going to output any optimizations for airplane propellers. What the designers program as the initial conditions and the initial objects, and their potential properties and limits matters immensely. It’s hardly “blind” a-telic evolution, as Darwin conjectured.
Blind is precisely what it is - it cannot "see" beyond the current generation. But sure, in a limited model, only a very limited range of kinds of evolved solution will be possible. Nonetheless, they evolve "blind" - nobody knows in advance what the solution will be, nobody steps in and picks the solutions they think are on the right track - they just sit back and watch the best solution evolve, blindly. It's important (and tried to make this point a few times, and I'll try again) to distinguish between the problem that the EA designer wants solving (a better antenna) and the problem the population is solving (a higher reproductive rate). We can (but need not) set up the environment so that BY solving the problem of how to survive within it, the virtual population also solves our problem. But you can also (and I've done this) set up a random environment - indeed one that changes over time. And what we observe is that the evolving population adapts to the environment you provide, even if it was generated from a random-environment-generator, and if you change it, the population then adapts to the new environment. In other words the only guidance is coming from the environment. We do not need to invoke a designer, in the natural world, to account for an environment of resources and hazards. It's just there, and its constantly changing, so there's every reason to expect that populations of organisms will evolve, blindly, to optimise their ability to thrive within the current environmental conditions. This is "a-telic". The population is only "guided" in the sense that gravity "guides" mountain streams down hillsides via stream-beds that take them most efficiently to the sea. The raindrops do not need to know where the sea is - they just push blindly against the obstruction-of-least-resistance.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Elizabeth:
Well, that’s not usually what people mean by “guided” in this context, Joe, which is why they sharpen their knives for Darwin, not the OoL people.
That is what Creationists and IDists have been saying- ie that is what is meant by "guided".
Darwin did not have anything to say about OoL
And that is why his idea was doomed to fail as the OoL holds the key.
So if all you are saying is that OoL had to be Intelligently Designed, your own complaint, anyway, is not against Darwin, nor against the “Blind Watchmaker” concept.
Of course it is. If the OoL = ID then both of those explanations are non-starters.
These computer models demonstrate clearly that, given self-replicators that replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment, complex solutions to the problems of survival in that environment will evolve, unguided by anything except the environment itself.
What computer models? EV is about binding sites. AVIDA does nothing but go towards the more simple when realistic parameters are entered.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle: unguided by anything except the environment itself.
Incorrect. They are also guided by the processes, systems, information, limits and constraints inherent in the replicators themselves.mike1962
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
Elizabeth:
The question is whether a system needs to be intelligently designed in order to result in evolution.
The evidence says that it does as basic biological reproduction is irreducibly complex.
But I’m glad we seem to agree that as long as we have the initial population of self-replicators (OOL), and an environment full of resources and hazard, adaptive evolution will tend to occur without any steering from a designer, cool.
Unguided evolution tends towards the more simple so it would never get beyond simple molecular replicators.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PDT
Joe:
The only way we would say that evolution is unguided is if unguided processes produced life in the first place. If the OoL is intelligently designed then we would say that organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design.
Well, that's not usually what people mean by "guided" in this context, Joe, which is why they sharpen their knives for Darwin, not the OoL people. Darwin did not have anything to say about OoL. In fact, in Origin, he famously, he assumes that life was originally "breathed" into the starting population of living things:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
So if all you are saying is that OoL had to be Intelligently Designed, your own complaint, anyway, is not against Darwin, nor against the "Blind Watchmaker" concept. These computer models demonstrate clearly that, given self-replicators that replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment, complex solutions to the problems of survival in that environment will evolve, unguided by anything except the environment itself. Now, it may take a Designer to design the set-up - but the evolution of the solutions is indeed unguided.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PDT
EL: The fact that we design the physics chemistry, the environment, and the initial population are irrelevant;
Of course they are relevant. The nature of the initial population (the systems, processes and control information they contain) determines to some extent what kinds of variations are even possible for any putative selection to act on. If I program a GA that searches for optimized antennas, it is not going to output any optimizations for airplane propellers. How would I even specify an "initial propeller" in a system designed to find optimized antennas? What the designers program as the initial conditions and the initial objects, and their potential properties, limits and constraints is determinative. Hardly "blind" evolution as Darwin envisioned.mike1962
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, Intelligent Design and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Intelligently designing something to evolve is still Intelligent Design.
I entirely agree, Joe. The question is whether a system needs to be intelligently designed in order to result in evolution. But I'm glad we seem to agree that as long as we have the initial population of self-replicators (OOL), and an environment full of resources and hazard, adaptive evolution will tend to occur without any steering from a designer, cool.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PDT
Mung:
You are creating a context that generates potential or candidate solutions and then allows them to be tested.
Yes, precisely. And they are generated by replication with random variation, just as Darwin proposed. And it works. The solutions are not designed. The virtual population is "directed" by nothing more than feedback from tne fitness function, just as in nature. Thus Darwin's proposed mechanism is modeled, and shown to work: complex and unplanned solutions to the problem of surviving in an environment full of resources and threats emerge simply from the mechanism. The fact that we design the physics chemistry, the environment, and the initial population are irrelevant; Darwin assumed all these were in place, and proposed his mechanism simply to account for the adaptive evolution of the reproducing population. Glad that's sorted.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
Mung
Precisely. And that would be by design. Took forever, but we got there in the end. thank you.
This is just weird, Mung. But yes, you specify the physics and chemistry of your virtual world. So you don't hope to evolve equations in alphabet world, any more than you would expect equations to evolve in DNA world.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
Genotypes map to phenotypes? Except if you are a vole, apparently: Voles- A lot of micro but no macro
The study focuses on 60 species within the vole genus Microtus, which has evolved in the last 500,000 to 2 million years. This means voles are evolving 60-100 times faster than the average vertebrate in terms of creating different species. Within the genus (the level of taxonomic classification above species), the number of chromosomes in voles ranges from 17-64. DeWoody said that this is an unusual finding, since species within a single genus often have the same chromosome number.  
Among the vole's other bizarre genetic traits:  
•In one species, the X chromosome, one of the two sex-determining chromosomes (the other being the Y), contains about 20 percent of the entire genome. Sex chromosomes normally contain much less genetic information. •In another species, females possess large portions of the Y (male) chromosome. •In yet another species, males and females have different chromosome numbers, which is uncommon in animals. 
A final "counterintuitive oddity" is that despite genetic variation, all voles look alike, said DeWoody's former graduate student and study co-author Deb Triant. 
"All voles look very similar, and many species are completely indistinguishable," DeWoody said.  
In one particular instance, DeWoody was unable to differentiate between two species even after close examination and analysis of their cranial structure; only genetic tests could reveal the difference.  
Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
02:17 PM
2
02
17
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, if you are going to make a pretense of disputing my argument you need to address my argument. It's like you're not paying attention to what I actually say going off on some tangent about things I'm not even talking about.
In other words, the very thing that is at issue – the thing evolves – is NOT designed.
Probably another reason we're having difficulty communicating. That's not what's at issue for me. My focus in this thread has been very narrow and specific.
I have always said, over and over, that the STARTING population of reproducing virtual organism IS designed – this is the equivalent of OOL.
I wasn't even going that far. But ok.
The difference is that the starter genotype is very very simple. All it has to do is provide reproductive functionality. Often, the designer actually generates an initial set of random variants – all that is designed is their capacity to replicate with variance. They don’t doesn’t have to do anything else.
See Zachriel @ 100.
You might, conceivably, represent your solution as a genotype, but if you knew the solution beforehand you wouldn’t need the GA.
But you're not representing the solution [that's a straw man]. You are creating a context that generates potential or candidate solutions and then allows them to be tested. If your fitness function expects words and your candidate solutions are representations of pictures you can have replication with variance all day long for all the good it will do you.Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, Intelligent Design and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Intelligently designing something to evolve is still Intelligent Design.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:48 PM
1
01
48
PM
PDT
Zachriel: The genotypes have to correlate to the landscape. If they don’t, then an evolutionary algorithm will not work. And now you're just repeating what I have been saying all along. :)Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Zachriel: If you are solving a complex equation, for instance, they might be the terms of the equation. Precisely. And that would be by design. Took forever, but we got there in the end. thank you.Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
Since we're being all pedantic and stuff: Zachriel: The fitness landscape is the problem. No, it isn't. Zachriel: The genotypes are the evolved solutions. You mean potential solution or candidate solution. And the behaviors and properties that all your "genotypes" share in common? For example, what is the longest word that you allow for, and why? Do you allow your potential words to consist of non-word characters, and if not why not?Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PDT
Mung: Random sequences of what? Spaghetti? Jello? If you are solving a complex equation, for instance, they might be the terms of the equation. Mung: Why do your “genotypes” use letters rather than pictograms? The genotypes have to correlate to the landscape. If they don't, then an evolutionary algorithm will not work. So, in biological evolution, if genotypes didn't map through phenotypes to the environment somehow, then biological evolution wouldn't occur. In addition, the fitness landscape must exhibit positive ordering. Turns out that nature clumps, light and gravity and water and all sorts of things!Zachriel
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:35 PM
1
01
35
PM
PDT
Elizabeth:
Joe: if you want to model biological evolution, then you need to use a computer, which is designed by human beings. If we used your logic, and computer model of any natural phenomenon whatsoever would be “designed” because the computer is designed.
That doesn't follow from what I posted. Also mere evolution is not being debated. I asked how to model UNGUIDED evolution. Natural selection is eliminative. The "goal" is to survive and reproduce. And that is a given. The only way we would say that evolution is unguided is if unguided processes produced life in the first place. If the OoL is intelligently designed then we would say that organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. EV doesn't model unguided evolution.Joe
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:33 PM
1
01
33
PM
PDT
Zachriel: You do realize that genetic algorithms are a subset of evolutionary algorithms? Yes. So? Do you have a point?Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
Zachriel: According to the definition provided above, the original population is made up of random sequences. So? Random sequences of what? Spaghetti? Jello? Why do your "genotypes" use letters rather than pictograms?Mung
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
Mung: A typical genetic algorithm requires: ... You do realize that genetic algorithms are a subset of evolutionary algorithms? Mung: You’re trying to solve a problem. You have to figure out some way to represent your problem as a genotype. The fitness landscape is the problem. The genotypes are the evolved solutions.Zachriel
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:28 PM
1
01
28
PM
PDT
Mung:
It may in fact be the case that you have to represent your problem as a fitness function, but that is not a rebuttal to what I wrote. So your rebuttal consists of “Nope.”
Yes it does consist of "nope". Nope as in: you do not have to represent your problem as a genotype. That doesn't even make any sense. You might, conceivably, represent your solution as a genotype, but if you knew the solution beforehand you wouldn't need the GA.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
And you have just said both that the genotype is and is not designed. Unless you are equivocating, you’re contradicting yourself.
I've made myself very clear, Mung: the winning genotype is not designed. And none of the modifications to the initial population are designed. In other words, the very thing that is at issue - the thing evolves - is NOT designed. I have always said, over and over, that the STARTING population of reproducing virtual organism IS designed - this is the equivalent of OOL. Darwinian evolution is predicated on the existence of a minimally functional starting population of self-replicators and we do not, as yet, know how those got going. Darwin's theory starts AFTER that point. And AFTER that point, the genotype is NOT designed - OK? It EVOLVES. Nobody knows, in advance, what the winning or optimal design will be.
So what is the starter genotype and what is the relevant difference between the starter genotype and the genotype in a GA you mention such that the starter genotype is designed and the genotype in a GA is not designed?
The difference is that the starter genotype is very very simple. All it has to do is provide reproductive functionality. Often, the designer actually generates an initial set of random variants - all that is designed is their capacity to replicate with variance. They don't doesn't have to do anything else. Everything else - everything we actually want it to evolve to do, is NOT designed. It EVOLVES by replication with heritable variation in reproductive success in the current environment. The current environment IS designed - by the modeller, either to simulate a natural environment, or to express a problem that the modeler wants solved. And the genotype that produces a phenotype that solves the problem is NOT designed, even though its remote ancestor at the virtual OOL at the start of the run, was.
Are you working with a language other than MATLAB now? I would not mind working some specific examples so that we both understand specifically what we are referring to.
I've been using Eureqa, not writing them myself. I've been too busy.Elizabeth Liddle
May 3, 2015
May
05
May
3
03
2015
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8 10

Leave a Reply