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Interesting proteins: DNA-binding proteins SATB1 and SATB2

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With this OP, I am starting a series (I hope) of articles whose purpose is to present interesting proteins which can be of specific relevance to ID theory, for their functional context and evolutionary history.

DNA-binding protein SATB1

SATB1 (accession number Q01826) is a very intriguing molecule. Let’s start with some information we can find at Uniprot, a fundamental protein database, about what is known of its function (in the human form):

Crucial silencing factor contributing to the initiation of X inactivation mediated by Xist RNA that occurs during embryogenesis and in lymphoma

And:

Transcriptional repressor controlling nuclear and viral gene expression in a phosphorylated and acetylated status-dependent manner, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

IOWs, it is an important regulatory protein involved in many different, and not necessarily well understood, processes, which binds to DNA and in involved in chromatin remodeling.

It is also involved in hematopoiesis (especially in T cell development), and has important roles in the biology of some tumors:

Modulates genes that are essential in the maturation of the immune T-cell CD8SP from thymocytes. Required for the switching of fetal globin species, and beta- and gamma-globin genes regulation during erythroid differentiation. Plays a role in chromatin organization and nuclear architecture during apoptosis.

Reprograms chromatin organization and the transcription profiles of breast tumors to promote growth and metastasis.

Keywords for molecular function: Chromatin regulatorDNA-bindingRepressor

Now, some information about the protein itself. I will relate, again, to the human form of the protein:

Length: 763 AAs. It’s a rather big protein, like many important regulatory molecules.

Its subcellular location is in the nucleus.

It is a multi-domain protein, with at least 5 detectable domains and many DNA binding sites.

Evolutionary history of SATB1

Now, let’s see some features of the evolutionary history of this protein in the course of metazoa evolution.

I will use here the same tools that I have developed and presented in my previous OP:

The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

So, I invite all those who are interested in the technical details to refer to that OP.

Here is a graph of the levels of homology to the human protein detectable in other metazoan groups, expressed as mean bitscore per aminoacid site:

 

Fig. 1: Evolutionary history of SATB1 by human-conserved functional information

 

The green line represents the evolutionary history of our protein, while the red dotted line is the reference mean line for the groups considered, as already presented in my previous post quoted above (Fig. 2).

As everyone can see, this specific protein has a very sudden gain in human-conserved information with the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates. So, it represents a very good example of the information jump that I have tried to quantify globally in my previous post.

Here, the jump is of almost 1.5 bits per aminoacid site. What does that mean?

Let’s remember that the protein is 763 AA long. Therefore, an increase of information of 1.5 bits per aminoacid corresponds to more than 1000 bits of information. To be precise, the jump from the best pre-vertebrate hit to the best hit in cartilaginous fish is:

1049 bits

But let’s see more in detail how the jump happens.

I will show here in detail some results of protein blasts. All of them have been obtained using the Blastp software at the NCBI site:

https://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?PROGRAM=blastp&PAGE_TYPE=BlastSearch&LINK_LOC=blasthome

with default settings.

Here is the result of blasting the human protein against all known protein sequences except for vertebrate sequences:

Fig. 2: Results of blasting human SATB1 against all non vertebrate protein sequences

 

As can be seen, we find only low homologies in non vertebrates, and they are essentially restricted to a small part of the molecule, that correspond to the first two domains in the protein, or just to the first domain. The image shows clearly that all the rest of the sequence has no detectable significant homologies in non vertebrates (except for a couple of very low homologies for the third domain).

The best hit in non vertebrates is 154 bits with Parasteatoda tepidariorum, a spider. Here it is:

Fig. 3: The best hit in non vertebrates (with a spider)

The upper line (Query) is the human sequence. The bottom line (Sbjct) is the aligned sequence of the spider. In the middle line, letters are identities, “+” characters are similarities (substitutions which are frequently observed in proteins, and are probably quasi-neutral), and empty spaces are less frequent substitutions, those that are more likely to affect protein structure and function if they happen at a functionally important aminoacid site.

The alignment here is absolutely restricted to AAs 71 – 245 (the first two domains), and involves only 177 AAs. Of these, only 78 (44%) are identities and 111 (62%) are positives (identities + similarities). So, in the whole protein we have only 78 identities out of 763 (10.2%).

The spider protein is labeled as “uncharacterized protein”, and that is the case in most of the other non vertebrate hits.

All the other non vertebrate hits, with a couple of exceptions, are well below 100 bits, most of them between 70 and 86 bits.

IOWs, the protein as we know it in vertebrates essentially does not exist in non vertebrates.

Even non vertebrate deuterostomia, which should be the nearest precursors of the first vertebrates, have extremely low homology bitscores with the human protein:

Saccoglossus kowalevskii (hemichordates):  87 bits

Branchiostoma floridae (cephalochordate): 67 bits

The information jump in vertebrates

Now, what happens with the first vertebrates?

The oldest split in vertebrates is the one between cartilaginous fish and bony fish (from which the human lineage derives). Therefore, homologies that are conserved between cartilaginous fish and humans had reasonably to be already present in the Last Common Ancestor of Vertebrates, before the split between cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and have been conserved for about 420 million years.

So, let’s see the best hit between the human protein and cartilaginous fish. It is with Rhincodon typus (whale shark). Here it is:

 

Fig. 4: The best hit of human SATB1 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

Here, the alignment involves practically the whole molecule (756 AAs), and we have 1203 bits of homology, 603 identities (79%), 659 positives (86%).

IOWs, the two molecules are almost identical. And the homology is extremely high not only in the domain parts, but also in the rest of the protein sequence.

Now, the evolutionary time between pre-vertebrates and the first split in vertebrates is certainly rather small, a few million years, or at most 20 – 30 million years. Not a big chronological window at all, in evolutionary terms.

However, in that window, this protein appears almost complete. 603 aminoacids are already those that will remain up to the human form of the protein, and only 78 of them were detectable in the best hit before vertebrate appearance.

1049 bits of new, original functional information. In such a short evolutionary window.

Functionality

Why functional? Because those 603 aminoacid have remained the same thorugh more than 400 million years of evolution. They have evaded neutral or quasi neutral variation, that would have certainly completely transformed the sequence in such a big evolutionary time, if those aminoacid sites were not under extreme functional constraint and purifying (negative) selection.

Now, I say that this fact cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not.

Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence in the available proteome of any intermediate form, of any gradual development of the functional sequence that will be conserved up to humans (except, of course, for the 50 – 78 AAs which are already detectable in the first two domains in many pre -vertebrates).

By the way, Callorhincus milii, the Elephant shark, has almost identical values of homology:

1184 bits, 599 identities, 654 positives

But, how important is this protein?

In the ExAC database, a database of variations in the human genome, missense mutations are 110 out of 260.3 expected, with a z score of 4.56, an extremely high measure of functional constraint.

The recent medical literature has a lot of articles about the important role of SATB1 at least in two big fields:

  • T cell development
  • Tumor development (many different kinds of tumors)

If we want to sum up in a few words what is known, we could say that SATB1 is considered a master regulator, essentially a complex transcription repressor, involved mainly (but not only) in the development of the immune system, in particular T cells. A disregulation of this protein is linked to many aspects of tumor invasivity (especially metastases). The protein seems to act, among other possibilities, as a global organizer of chromatin states.

Here is a very brief recent bibliography:

Essential Roles of SATB1 in Specifying T Lymphocyte Subsets

SATB1 overexpression correlates with gastrointestinal neoplasms invasion and metastasis: a meta-analysis for Chinese population

SATB1-mediated Functional Packaging of Chromatin into Loops

DNA-binding protein SATB2

But there is more. There is another protein which is very similar to SATB1. It is called DNA-binding protein SATB2 (accession number Q9UPW6).

Its length is very similar to SATB1: 733 AAs.

Uniprot describes its function as follows:

Binds to DNA, at nuclear matrix- or scaffold-associated regions. Thought to recognize the sugar-phosphate structure of double-stranded DNA. Transcription factor controlling nuclear gene expression, by binding to matrix attachment regions (MARs) of DNA and inducing a local chromatin-loop remodeling. Acts as a docking site for several chromatin remodeling enzymes

Which is very similar to SATB1. But now come the differences. While SATB1 is implied prevalently in T cell development and tumor development, SATB2 is:

Required for the initiation of the upper-layer neurons (UL1) specific genetic program and for the inactivation of deep-layer neurons (DL) and UL2 specific genes, probably by modulating BCL11B expression. Repressor of Ctip2 and regulatory determinant of corticocortical connections in the developing cerebral cortex. May play an important role in palate formation. Acts as a molecular node in a transcriptional network regulating skeletal development and osteoblast differentiation

So, similar proteins with rather different specificities. While SATB1 is mainly connexted to adaptive immunity (T cell development), SATB2 seems to be more linked to neuronal development. Like SATB1, it is involved in cancer development, although usually in different types of cancer.

Here is a brief recent bibliography about SATB2:

Mutual regulation between Satb2 and Fezf2 promotes subcerebral projection neuron identity in the developing cerebral cortex

SATB1 and SATB2 play opposing roles in c-Myc expression and progression of colorectal cancer

However, how similar is SATB2 to SATB1 in terms of sequence homology?

Here is a direct blast of the two human molecules:

 

Fig. 5: Blast of human SATB1 vs human SATB2:

 

OK, they are very similar, but…  only 460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits. IOWs, these two human proteins are similar, but not so similar as the two sequences of SATB1 in the shark and in humans.

Now, here is the evolutionary history of SATB2:

 

Fig. 6: Evolutionary history of SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

As everyone can see, it is almost identical to the evolutionary history of SATB1. To see it even better, Fig. 7 shows the two evolutionary histories together (the green line is SATB1, the brown line is SATB2):

 

Fig. 7: Evolutionary history of SATB1 and SATB2 by human-conserved functional information

 

In particular, pre-vertebrate history and the jump in cartilaginous fish are practically identical. And yet these are two different molecules, as we have seen, with different specificities and about one third of difference in sequence.

Now, let’s blast human SATB2 against cartilaginous fish. Again the best hit is with the whale shark:

 

Fig. 8: The best hit of human SATB2 in cartilaginous fish (with the whale shark)

 

And the numbers are very similar, incredibly similar I would say, to those we found for SATB1:

1197 bits, 592 identities, 662 positives.

But what if we blast SATB1 of the whale shark against SATB2 of the whale shark?

Here are the results:

 

Fig. 9: Blast of whale shark SATB1 vs whale shark SATB2:

Now, please, compare the numbers we got here with those from the similar blast between the two proteins in humans:

SATB1 human vs SATB2 human:  460 identities, 550 positives, 854 bits

SATB1 shark vs SATB2 shark:      468 identities, 556 positives, 856 bits

Almost exactly the same numbers! Wow!

What does that mean?

It means that this system of two similar proteins with different function arises in vertebrates as a whole system, already complete, with the two components already differentiated, and is conserved almost identical up to humans. Indeed, SATB1 and SATB2 have the same degree of homology both in sharks and in humans, and the two SATB1 proteins in shark and humans, as well as the two SATB2 proteins in shark and humans, have greater similarity, after more than 400 million years of divergence, than SATB1 and SATB2 show when compared, both in sharks and in humans.

Would you describe that as sudden appearance of huge amounts of functional information, followed by an extremely long stasis? I certainly would!

The following table sums up these results:

Sequence 1 Sequence 2 Bitscore
SATB1 Human SATB2 Human 854
SATB1 Shark SATB2 Shark 856
SATB1 Human SATB1 Shark 1203
SATB2 Human SATB2 Shark 1197

IOWs, the whole system appeared practically as it is today, before the split of cartilaginous fish and bony fish, and has retained its essential form up to now.

So, the total amount of new functional information implied by the whole system of these two proteins is about 1545 bits (considering 855 bits of common information, and 345 bits x 2 of specific information in each molecule).

An amazing amount, for a system of just two molecules, considering that 500 bits is Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound!

Let’s remember that in my previous post, quoted above, I showed that the informational jump from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates is more than 1.7 million bits. That’s a very big number, but big numbers sometimes are not easily digested. So, I believe that seeing that just two important molecules can contribute for almost 1500 bits can help us understand what we are really seeing here.

Moreover, it’s certainly not a case that those two molecules seem to be fundamental in two very particular fields:

a) The adaptive immune system

b) The nervous system

if we consider that those are exactly the two most relevant developments in vertebrates.

And, as a final note, please consider that these are very complex master regulators, which interact with tens of other complex proteins to effect their functions. The whole system is certainly much more irreducibly complex than we can imagine.

But still, just the analysis of these two sister proteins is more than enough to demonstrate that the neo Darwinian paradigm is completely inappropriate to explain what we can see in the proteome and in its natural history. And this is only one example among thousands.

So, I want to conclude repeating again this strong and very convinced statement:

The observed facts described here cannot in any way be explained by any neo-darwinian model. Absolutely not. They are extremely strong evidence for a design inference.

Comments
gpuccio, Your insightful posts have been very instructive as usual. They definitely present a very strong case supporting ID. Well done! Thanks! Enjoy the summer and please come back with more posts.Dionisio
August 4, 2017
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Well, I just wanted to thank all those who have contributed to the very good discussion here, beginning with our kind "antagonists", RodW and wd400, and of course all the friends who have given support and contributed their ideas. As I said, I will not be able to post for about three weeks. I am sure that the discussion will go on, either here or elsewhere. A good summer to all! :)gpuccio
August 4, 2017
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RodW: Please see gpuccio's response to your request for clarification at post #298; thanks in advance for your reply! gpuccio: "I will be away for about three weeks"; Knowing it's summer I assumed you might already be away. I hope it's for a pleasure trip. Thanks again for all your feedback.es58
August 3, 2017
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es58: For example, I have always been fascinated by stationary flight. From Wikipedia: "Hovering is stationary flight, exhibited by bees, dragonflies, hummingbird hawk-moths, hummingbirds, bats, helicopters, balloons, and kites. Hovering generally consumes large amounts of fuel when done by rockets, special airplanes or hummingbirds." I am sure that neo-darwinian evolution can easily explain, by some kind of convergence, the evolution of stationary flight in bees, hummingbirds and kites! :)gpuccio
August 3, 2017
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es58: So, neo-darwinian evolution is such a powerful algorithm that it can easily build a nervous system 12 times independently! What's the problem? It can obviously solve fundamental problems. Strangely, it solves them always in the same way (at the general design level), but using different building blocks. No surprise, neo-darwinian evolution has very clear ideas about the result to be obtained, and it pragmatically uses what it can find to obtain it! Neo-darwinian evolution is really a grand design, after all. :) And, I suppose, the same is true for flight, which arose independently I don't know how many times. Why be surprised? A nervous system and flight are piece of cake! Just solve the rights problems, and there they are!gpuccio
August 3, 2017
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es58: By the way, I had seen the OP about ctenophores. Fascinating and amazing. OK, the article is not a scientific paper, not at all, but still: "‘It was much more than just the presence or absence of just a few genes,’ he says. ‘It was really a grand design.’" "Moroz now counts nine to 12 independent evolutionary origins of the nervous system – including at least one in cnidaria (the group that includes jellyfish and anemones), three in echinoderms (the group that includes sea stars, sea lilies, urchins and sand dollars), one in arthropods (the group that includes insects, spiders and crustaceans), one in molluscs (the group that includes clams, snails, squid and octopuses), one in vertebrates – and now, at least one in ctenophores." "What’s fascinating is how these different pathways of evolution arrived at nervous systems that look so similar across the animal tree of life. Take for example the work of Nicholas Strausfeld, a neuro-anatomist at the University of Arizona in Tucson. He and others have found that the neural circuits underlying smell, episodic memory, spatial navigation, behaviour choice and vision in insects are nearly identical to those performing the same functions in mammals – despite the fact that different, though overlapping, sets of genes were harnessed to build each one." "These similarities reflect two key principles of evolution, factors that are probably important on any world where life has emerged. The first is convergence: these far-flung branches of the evolutionary tree arrived at common designs for a nervous system because they each had to solve the same fundamental problems." Emphasis mine.gpuccio
August 3, 2017
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es58: Yes, I meant to add some further comment about wd400's posts. But frankly, I don't know if I will find the time, because I will be away for about three weeks, starting this saturday, and I will not be able to post in that time. Before leaving, I will try to post something more, if I can. And I will certainly post a greeting to all those who have discussed in this thread. :) When I am back, I will certainly check the thread. Let's see is there is still something to say.gpuccio
August 3, 2017
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RodW: For the two opsins, the functional information that appears at the vertebrate jump is: 380 bits for Rhodopsin 219 bits for Melanopsin How do I calculate those numbers? It's simple. Look at this: 1) Rhodopsin: Human-conserved ancestral functional information: 140 bits Human-conserved functional information in chordates (non vertebrates): 228 bits Human-conserved functional information in sharks: 608 bits 2) Melanopsin: Human-conserved ancestral functional information: 140 bits Human-conserved functional information in chordates (non vertebrates): 322 bits Human-conserved functional information in sharks: 541 bits So, the new information that appears in vertebrates and is conserved up to humans is: For Rhodopsin: 608 - 228 = 380 bits For Melanopsin: 541 - 322 = 219 bits IOWs, I subtract from the total human conserved information present in sharks the human conserved information present in chordates non vertebrates. I thought that was clear: it is the same methodology I have used in the OP, and which shows that, for STAB proteins, the new functional information appearing in vertebrates is: For SATB1: 1049 bits (1203 - 154) For SATB2: 1072 bits (1197 - 125) Is that clear?gpuccio
August 3, 2017
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es58 Ok, here I think is the relevant part.
I have never denied protein descent. Indeed, it’s the foundation of my argument. What I deny is that huge new amount of functional information can be added to proteins, in the course of evolutionary descent, without a design intervention.
And here are some examples of his calculations:
Let’s say tow rather different opsins, both present in humans: 1) Rhodopsin, that we have already considered 2) Melanopsin Well, they certainly share some minor but relevant part of the sequence: 140 bits, 86 identities, 155 positives. ...... Rhodopsin has in humans huge homology with the shark protein, as we have seen: 608 bits; 288 identities; 321 positives
I assume the first number is the 'functional information' he is saying has appeared in the protein. Am I correct? How does he calculate this? ( I'd ask him but I don't know if he's still checking here)RodW
August 2, 2017
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WD400, RodW or anyone else: I would appreciate a response to GPuccios posts at: #186 and #288 which respond to WD400's post at #177. Thanks! Gpuccio: At your post #288 you had said you intended to post more. I don't know if that was more related to the post at #177 or to some other post, but, either way, it would be appreciated. Thanks! All: The link I posted at #295 is an interesting article by a neuroscientist who has found a sea creature with a different nervous system than any known animal. It has no seratonin, no dopamine, etc. It apparently has a completely different set of proteins(?)es58
August 2, 2017
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/aeon.co/amp/essays/what-the-ctenophore-says-about-the-evolution-of-intelligence#ampshare=https://aeon.co/essays/what-the-ctenophore-says-about-the-evolution-of-intelligencees58
August 2, 2017
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Mung: You are always the fortunate! :)gpuccio
August 1, 2017
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well maybe Mung is LoL. maybeMung
August 1, 2017
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RodW: "Actually polls show you in the majority and you’re certainly not despised." Please, don't destroy my few illusions! My name is Giuseppe Puccio, if that can help. I have addressed some of your points at #258. I would also appreciate if you could comment on the important problem I discussed in my posts #129 and 157 and 201, about the (impossible) deconstruction of complex functions into simpler steps.gpuccio
July 31, 2017
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gpuccio, Actually polls show you in the majority and you're certainly not despised. ( well maybe Mung is :) ) Anyway. I cant post during the weekend so is there anything for me to respond to? BTW my real is Rod Wilson. I'd be curious to hear everyone's real name. I have difficulty relating to screennames.RodW
July 31, 2017
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Mung: That's the point: We are a minority. We are an extreme minority. We are a despised minority. But we have a lot of fun! :)gpuccio
July 31, 2017
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Moreover, there is no need that the existing proteomes be a “complete” record of diversity.
Haha. The fossil record is complete enough for Darwinists to make leaps of inference, but the protein databases are not? Now THAT is FUNNY!Mung
July 31, 2017
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wd400's post #177: I have already discussed some points in my post #186. Other points that deserve discussion:
Doesn’t take much googling to find places where I’ve tried to explained the relevance of phylogeny and the limitations of taking BLAST databases as complete records of diversity
BLAST databases are the main objective information we have on protein evolution. If we don't recur to them for our inferences, to what should we recur? Unless we accept the neo-darwinian idea that facts are not necessary! :) Moreover, there is no need that the existing proteomes be a "complete" record of diversity. They are certainly a very significant sample of diversity. Even if parts of diversity have certainly been lost, there is no reason to expect a systematic loss limited to all the information that could support the neo-darwinian theory (for example, the traces of all the necessary functionally selectable intermediates).
The question of finding (or, actually inferring) ancestral intermediates is a strange one. First, such intermediates obviously exist, bacause the proteins are not 100% conserved, allowing us to infer ancestral states.
Now, let's try to understand this tricky point as clearly as possible. I have never denied protein descent. Indeed, it's the foundation of my argument. What I deny is that huge new amount of functional information can be added to proteins, in the course of evolutionary descent, without a design intervention. Let's consider, for example, the opsins we have debated here after Mung introduced them as a good example of what we are considering. Let's say tow rather different opsins, both present in humans: 1) Rhodopsin, that we have already considered 2) Melanopsin Well, they certainly share some minor but relevant part of the sequence: 140 bits, 86 identities, 155 positives. The expect value is 4e-42, highly significant. Who can deny that the two proteins are connected in some way? I certainly have no intention to deny it. So, let's say that they derived from a common ancestor protein, well before the appearance of vertebrates. And they still retain the signature of that common origin. 140 bits of functional information, conserved for hundreds of millions of years. And we could certainly, with some approximation, infer some ancestral state for that common ancestral protein. And so? The point is: 1) Rhodopsin has in humans huge homology with the shark protein, as we have seen: 608 bits; 288 identities; 321 positives of which the jump in vertebrates is a very big part: 380 bits; 165 identities 2) Melanopsin too has strong homology with shark: 541 bits; 278 identities; 337 positives of which the jump in vertebrates is a very big part: 219 bits; 133 identities The best hit in chordates for those two proteins is: 1) Rhodopsin: Ciona intestinalis: 228 bits 2) Melanopsin: Branchiostoma floridae: 322 bits So, in chordates, both proteins show a definite homology with the human form, which is higher than the basic information content conserved in both proteins (what we could call "the conserved ancestral functional information"). So we have: 1) Rhodopsin: Human-conserved ancestral functional information: 140 bits Human-conserved functional information in chordates (non vertebrates): 228 bits Human-conserved functional information in sharks: 608 bits 2) Melanopsin: Human-conserved ancestral functional information: 140 bits Human-conserved functional information in chordates (non vertebrates): 322 bits Human-conserved functional information in sharks: 541 bits So, I ask: What's the relevance of the fact that "proteins are not 100% conserved, allowing us to infer ancestral states" to our discussion here? Absolutely none. The relevant fact is that the ancestral protein underwent at least two accumulations if functional information: a minor one before vertebrates, which generates some functional information specific for each of the two proteins, and different from the basic shared sequence: about 88 bits in Rhodopsin about 182 bits in Melanopsin But the second accumulation is the bigger jump: about 280 bits in Rhodopsin about 219 bits in Melanopsin It must be clear that, as the jump grows, the credibility of a gradual generation of the functional sequence by RV + NS goes down from infinitesimal to infinitely infinitesimal.
If you look only at those amino acids are conserved then ask for the intermediates then obviously we won’t find them.
I really don't understand wd400's point here. That would make sense if we were observing minimal differences, say two or three AA jumps, which are still in the range of what RV and NS can do (maybe) in millions of years. But here we are looking at jumps of hundreds of conserved AAs. And it is not obvious at all that we don't find any intermediates. IOIWs, we could well observe proteins that change in small steps, and grow in functionality in small steps. That would be much more compatible with the neo-darwinian theory. What we really observe, instead, is a true and strong falsification of that theory. It's obvious, instead, that I must look at "those amino acids that are conserved", because those are the AAs that are certainly functional.
It is also strange to ask think discontinuous jumps between clades is a problem and not a prediction of evolution down a tree.
A prediction? Are we kidding? Ah, OK, I forgot. Neo-darwinism predicts all and the contrary of all.
All vertebrates share ~30 million years of evolutionary history
Yes, and so? I would say 30 millions at most, probably much less.
variation that occured in that time are not available for study when we look at modern organisms
Again with modern organisms! We are looking at old sequences conserved in modern organisms. A lot of clues are available for study by looking at them. Those that are not available, are probably not available because they never existed, especially if the lack of specific clues is universal, all pervading and systematic.
The idea that not finding homologies for all domains in non- (not pre!) vertebrate animals using blastp and default settings is evidence that these domains were not present in the ancestors of vertebrates is also strange. These domains are all present in modern non-vertebrates.
Again, I am not speaking of domains, but of specific, conserved sequences. I have recognized all the domains that can be identified, according to NCBI, in the proteins I have discussed. But my analysis is about sequences. And I have also separately analyzed sequence conservation both in domains and in inter-domain sequences. What is really strange is this obstinate refusal to consider the evidence from sequences. Sequences are the place where digital information is stored. They are the object of variation. Variation is variation of sequence. The search space is the sequence search space. Domains are a meta-construct. RV knows nothing about domains and structures. It is just a variation of sequence. The only possible reason for this obstinacy in ignoring the importance of sequences is that what they say is not good at all for the neo-darwinist paradigm. More in next post.gpuccio
July 31, 2017
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within the last few months (paywall): http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/05/10/science.aal3321 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6340/806 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tra.12497/abstract http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v14/n7/full/nmeth.4359.html?foxtrotcallback=trueDionisio
July 31, 2017
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es58: I have commented on some points of post #177 in my post #186 (to Origenes). #187 was not addressed to me. I have not commented post #188. Consider that wd400 was not very clear about his goodwill to participate in a direct discussion, and when he posted these I still had to complete my answers to his old post that, although short, summarized some very important general objections. However, later today I will review these three posts that you mention, and I will try to address aspects that may not have been discussed yet.gpuccio
July 30, 2017
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Gpuccio. Since you are usually so thorough as to label all your responses by post number I may have missed it if you had responded to wd400 at posts 177,187,188 . If not would appreciate your feedback to them. thanks!es58
July 30, 2017
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gpuccio: Please, would you comment on this? Thank you. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/prebiotic-metabolic-pathways-another-naturalistic-hypothesis-of-the-origin-of-life/#comment-636832Dionisio
July 29, 2017
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gpuccio: Thank you for the comments @278-282. Have a good weekend.Dionisio
July 29, 2017
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Dionisio: "Once we get through this discussion (if one can) and have all the required proteins in place, we still have to answer how they are recruited and used in signaling pathways and regulatory networks (both genetic and epigenetic). Is this correct?" Yes. Absolutely.gpuccio
July 29, 2017
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Dionisio: "another way to explain it is by those similarities being carried over from previous proteins that pass those segments along through biological history?" Yes. That's exactly my point of view. The similarities are passed "passively", and so are the new accumulated differences due to neutral variation. Instead, all new complex functional information is added by design.gpuccio
July 29, 2017
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Dionisio: As far as I know, the name of this blog, "Uncommon descent", was created by Dembski, the founder of the blog itself. I think that Dembski does not accept common descent, but I doubt that this is a relevant part, or even a part at all, of his ID arguments. His reasons to refuse CD are more probably theological. Other important ID proponents, like Behe, do accept CD. Personally, I have never had any doubts, even if I try to keep an open mind. Let's say that my conviction that biological information is designed is much, much scientifically stronger than my conviction of CD. Which is, however, rather solid.gpuccio
July 29, 2017
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Dionisio: "are the observed differences between similar proteins the result of accumulated mutations through biological history? Are those differences functional or just structural?" The differences in non synonymous site, IOWs those that cause an AA change, are measured by Ka, and can be both: a) functional (the protein is tweaked differently in different species) or b) neutral variations accumulated through biological history. It is not easy to distinguish the two, but I think there is evidence enough that both occur. On the other hand, the differences in synonymous site, IOWs those that so not cause an AA change, are measured by Ks, and are considered neutral, at least in most cases (there is some evidence that in some cases synonymous mutations can cause functional variations, for example by influencing the translation rate of the protein). In most proteins, Ka/Ks is significantly lower than 1, because non synonymous mutations are antagonized by negative (purifying) selection, when the sites where they occur are functionally constrained. The important point is that Ks, which is not under significant functional constraint, is grossly proportional to the evolutionary chronological separation between species. That confirms that the divergence in synonymous site is due to neutral mutations, and that it is passed from species to species physically. Which is, IMO, the best argument for common descent, because the similarities can be explained, with some difficulty, by common design, the differences in non synonymous sites could still be explained, with greater difficulty, by common design, arguing that all of them are functionally motivated (which is, IMO, far-fetched). But the differences in synonymous sites, and their diverging pattern in time, cannot, as far as I can understand, be reasonably explained by common design. They very strongly argue for common descent.gpuccio
July 29, 2017
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Dionisio: The issue of new genes is still not well understood, I believe. So, anything we say is still tentative (personally, I don't share RodW easy certainties). :) From what we know, it seems that the information in the new gene as we observe it was already, at least in good part, present in the pre-protein sequence, be it a non coding sequence or a cryptic ORF. The problem is that we don't know much of the functions of these new genes. I suppose they are probably regulatory, and that makes even more difficult understanding them. So, as we don't know exactly what they do, it's even more difficult to understand if the function is already present at the origin of the translated protein, of if it changes after, least of all by what mechanisms. The simple fact that these genes, arising at least in part from non coding genes, have properties very different from non coding genes at large (like intrinsic disorder, see the paper I discussed above with RodW), is very interesting, and makes us wonder how these specific properties were acquired through variations in the non coding sequence, where NS has no role. Again, design is the best answer..gpuccio
July 29, 2017
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gpuccio @271:
[...] explaining all sequence similarities in proteins by functional constraints [...]
another way to explain it is by those similarities being carried over from previous proteins that pass those segments along through biological history?Dionisio
July 29, 2017
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gpuccio, The main discussion in this thread is about the origin of the functional information seen in proteins, right? Once we get through this discussion (if one can) and have all the required proteins in place, we still have to answer how they are recruited and used in signaling pathways and regulatory networks (both genetic and epigenetic). Is this correct?Dionisio
July 29, 2017
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