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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
Elizabeth: Some footnotes: 1. I too thought Meyer's book could have been considerably shortened without any loss of substance. On the other hand, you have to take into account the intended audience of the book, which was broader than the very small number of people who specialize in origin-of-life research. General introductory material is needed for that broader audience. Still, I think it could have been done in 200-300 pages, as opposed to 500. 2. Your general principle about distilling the essence of an argument, while sensible in the appropriate contexts, if taken literally would mean that Darwin should not have written *The Origin of Species*, but should have published a journal article instead. ("If he can't say it in 20 pages ...") That's a ludicrous conclusion. Obviously arguments of large scope require longer treatment than arguments of small scope. If you are trying to prove that the TTSS has some proteins similar to those of the bacterial flagellum, you publish an article; if you are calling for a rethinking of evolutionary theory as a whole, you need a book-length treatment. So yes, an argument should always be stated as concisely as possible, but that does not mean that the article is always preferable to the book. What it means is that when books are necessary, they should be written as concisely as possible (e.g., if it can be said in 200 pages rather than 500, it should be said in 200 pages), and when articles are more appropriate, they should be written as concisely as possible (e.g., if they can be executed in 20 pages rather than 40, then 20 pages is how long they should be).Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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I said that in every instance where States had passed or proposed critical analysis language or scientific criticism language bill, the NCSE had opposed the measure. I still believe that is true. If you or anyone else here can find a single counter-example, I will retract my statement and admit that sometimes the NCSE has sided with such policies.
Show me an example of a State passing a "critical analysis" or "scientific criticism" bill that isn't religiously motivated, and I will show you a bill that the NCSE doesn't oppose. The very notion that the state should mandate that a certain theory be critically analyzed in class rests on the (religiously motivated) assumption that scientists and science teachers are hiding something about that theory. Eugenie Scott of the NCSE, on the religiously motivated nature of these types of billslastyearon
February 1, 2012
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One cannot read everything, so one filters the choice of books by what is said about them. I tend to judge ID books by what their advocates say about them. I've read Dembski's "Mere Creation" through. It's a collection of essays by supposedly the best thinkers friendly to ID. I've recently read the Koonin and Shapiro books, as they were free and were promoted here. Before I invest time and money in a book, I'd like to see something from its friends and advocates that indicates it has something important to say. This seems to be the home of ID advocacy, so this is where I go to find the best reason to read ID books.Petrushka
February 1, 2012
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The shingles (pebbles) don’t appear to be as well ordered as you claimed. True, they are smaller at one end of the beach and gradually become larger until they reach the other end. But as the image would suggest, one will find disordered differences within any given space.
Well, the pebble sizes are remarkably uniform in any given stretch of beach. But sure, there is some variation. The chances that they would have ended up that way without some kind of sorting mechanism is infinitesimal.
My guess is that the constant motion of the water against the shingles pushes the smaller ones towards the further end of the beach.
Something like that, although there seems to be a feedback loop whereby the size of the pebbles already on the beach affect which sizes are deposited there. <blockquote.Now compare this to getting all the cards of one suit into precise order. What sort of physical force could accomplish that? Human beings probably! I think you may have missed my point :)Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Oh, and I finally made it to the end of The Signature In The Cell. I though it was dreadful! And dreadfully prolix too! Give me a properly formatted, concise peer-reviewed paper any day!Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Yes, the natural sciences are different, Timaeus. My early career was in the humanities and I quite agree. But for science it is quite different, and peer-review a much more important filter and refiner. It's a principle of empirical science papers that you should be able to provide sufficient detail to enable replication of your study by another investigator. It is also required that your conclusions are at least arguably supported by your data and your data analysis. And the review process does a pretty good job of ensuring that most papers are better in these respects than they were when they are first written. In addition, the space constraints of a paper mean that you are required to distil your question, evidence and argument into clear, succinct and unambiguous form (typically with introduction, method, results, conclusions) and so, even when papers are not peer-reviewed, I would prefer to read a paper than a book. And, to be honest, if an author can't distill the essence of an argument into a paper, I'd be a bit skeptical of the argument. But, no matter. I've been wanting to read that book by Shapiro since it came out, and it's winging its way from Amazon to me right now. Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Elizabeth: As I promised, I will let you have the last word on Darwinism and Margulis and Shapiro; however, your bizarre comment on papers versus books is a new topic (actually harking back to an older discussion) that I cannot let pass. Your attitude here seems irrational. First of all, if an author writes several papers over a series of years, he or she may change his mind about some of them. The argument of a paper may since have been invalidated by someone else's research, or even by the author's own; or the author's theoretical perspective may have changed due to conversations or readings during the intervening time. For this reason, if an author has written something newer that deals with the same topic as an older article, the newer item, whether paper or book, is going to be a more reliable indicator of what the author thinks *now*. Second, scientific papers are often of a very narrow focus, discussing this or that bit of experimental data, or this or that aspect of a mechanism. They often don't indicate the full scope and coherence of an author's thought, either because at the time of writing, the author's thought still has not achieved its full scope and coherence, or because the author has chosen to contribute only a small and focused piece of his thought. A book, on the other hand, enables an author to look back over the accomplishment of several years and many papers, and bring together common themes into a coherent "big picture," while abandoning errors and de-emphasizing work that doesn't help to convey that big picture. It allows the author to arrange things in a way that is more orderly and systematic for the reader, and to make points afresh in sometimes more pointed and illuminating language. It allows the author more space to ruminate on wider implications and indulge in more historical context than there is normally room for in a short journal article. It allows for a richer and more reflective presentation. So Shapiro's book, being brand-new, (a) where it differs from his earlier articles, supersedes them as a statement of his current thinking; and (b) where it agrees with his earlier articles, presents them in a broad synthetic form rather than as a series of isolated snapshots. If one wants to discuss Shapiro, especially in the context of a debate over "what Shapiro thinks," it is more rational to rest more weight on a new book than on old articles. This is especially the case when it is obvious from the very title and theme of the book that he intends it as his grand current overview of the field. Thus, ID people have been eagerly digging away at the book ever since it came out, and eagerly reading the Dembski/Shapiro exchange on Discovery -- which is even newer! And quite reasonably, they have taken their conception of "what Shapiro thinks now" from *these* sources. Makes good sense to me. And to argue against people who have read the newest version of an author's thought, based on an older version of an author's thought, strikes me as an odd procedure. For analogous reasons, by the way, it makes less sense to take Dembski's thought from one or two isolated papers, and more sense to take it from larger synthetic works, i.e., books, where he has put together a large body of earlier work and honed it. Thus, to understand Dembski, one should look at, to start with, *No Free Lunch* (and, when it comes out, his projected revision of that work), and also the later *The Design of Life* which he co-wrote with Jonathan Wells. It is dangerous to infer that one has refuted Dembski because one has found a flaw in one article. Much of an author's thought, as expressed in expansive book form, may remain of value even if his execution of a single argument or calculation leaves something to be desired. From numerous remarks you have made, and from remarks others have made here over the years, I get the strong sense that you and many ID critics are predominantly "article readers" rather than "book readers." Often it appears that criticisms are based on a single journal article, or on a single chapter of a book, or (I am thinking here less of you than of others) on a blog column, or on a transcription of a radio interview, or on a summary from Wikipedia, or on reports of what an ID proponent believes (reports circulating on Panda's Thumb or some equally unreliable source of objective reporting). In the meantime, defenders of the ID people in question have usually read all the ID person's books as well as many or all of his journal articles, essay contributions to anthologies, and blog pieces, and have heard numerous podcasts, radio interviews, etc. Most of the internet critics of Michael Behe appear not to have read both of his books straight through. A surprising number of them have taken their view of Behe from Ken Miller's summary and refutation of Behe regarding the single narrow issue of the flagellum, as if there is no need to read either Behe's own explanation of the flagellum, or the rest of what Behe wrote. And even there, it often seems to be the case that Behe's rejoinders to Miller have not been read. And many people have read only Denton's first book, not his second, yet pronounce upon his thought nonetheless. Still others have condemned Meyer's new book without having read it, based on hearsay. On other sites I have heard Jonathan Wells's new book on junk DNA trashed by people who have not read it. To ID people, it goes without saying that if you want to know a thinker's systematic thought, with all the pieces put together in an organic whole, you read (a) a book, not a single article; and (b) the latest book you can find. So ID people are book-readers. As a scholar, I was trained not to criticize the thought of a person until one had soaked oneself in it. If we are talking about something tiny, like a measurement or a historical fact, it is all right to criticize on a piecemeal basis, but if one is claiming to have refuted an entire position, it is necessary to really know the position that one is refuting, and rarely is a broad theoretical position adequately expressed in one specialist article or one popular article. So I was trained to read books, often long books. It's just par for the course in humanities and social science scholarship. The natural sciences seem to be different, at least, the life sciences, if the way people trained in the life sciences argue against ID authors is any indication of their reading habits. Of course, in saying all of this, I have wandered away from any specific concern with your approach to Shapiro. My point is more general. I would like to have more assurance that you and other ID critics have read many long ID books, slowly and carefully. Often I don't feel any such assurance, as passages from the books are rarely discussed. Or if they are discussed, a blogger or commenter will rant for paragraphs about an alleged scientific or mathematical error found on page 201 of a book, without even trying to show that this error is such that it invalidates the argument of even a chapter of the work, let alone the whole work, still less all of ID. Of course, to make the wider claim one would have to know intimately the argument of the larger work, and it's precisely that which I often feel the critics do not know. And of course I am no longer speaking primarily to you, Elizabeth, but to anyone for whom the shoe fits. And now you can have the last word on the new subject! T.Timaeus
February 1, 2012
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How is evolutionary theory "thriving" when it hasn't been able to answer any of the tough questions pertaining to evolution?Joe
February 1, 2012
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The "Darwinian mechanism", as I am using the term, is that heritable variance in reproductive success leads to adaptation. This, conceivably, can happen in leaps if a variant occurs that has greatly improved reproductive success. Both Shapiro and Margulis have proposed variance-generation mechanisms that could account for variants with large increases in reproductive success. So have the evo-devo people. What they both did was challenge the notion that all variants result from minor reshuffles to DNA. And evo-devo shows us that even minor reshuffles of DNA can result in major phenotypic changes, and thereby, potentially, major changes in reproductive success. Darwin didn't even know about DNA. He didn't know how variance was generated. We no know that there are not only mechanisms that explain minor variation, but also that explain major variation. And Shapiro, interestingly, adds to the basic Darwinian recipe, evolution at population level - the evolution of evolvability. If people don't want to give Darwin the credit for this, fine. But in that case, don't use "Darwinist" to describe modern evolutionary biologists, and perhaps news could stop writing headlines announcing the death of "Darwinism". If Darwinism is the state of evolutionary biology post Watson and Crick then it's long dead. Evolutionary theory is still thriving though.Elizabeth Liddle
February 1, 2012
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Liz, I don't understand your objections. Both Shapiro and Margulis disputed the MET claim that that the Darwinian mechanism can explain radical leaps in the fossil record or, for that matter, how new species emerge. That makes them non-Darwinists. What you have described (or tried to define) is evolution, the genus, not Darwinian evolution, the species. For the Darwinist (or neo-Darwinist), the mechanism explains everything--and I mean everything.StephenB
January 31, 2012
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Eigenstate: It Matzke apologized and/or retracted an error, I salute him. I have never seen him do it here, or anywhere else. Maybe he has, but in my experience it is very atypical of his debating stance. Let's hope the example you have given marks a change of attitude on his part. If it does, many ID proponents will respect him a lot more. Sure, ID supporters aren't perfect. I would prefer that some of the ID people who post here did not post arguments the length of book chapters with a score of long quotations that no one has time to read. I would prefer it if accusations of immorality or wickedness were never levelled at someone just because he endorses Darwinism or finds some ID argument inadequate. I would prefer it if some people wouldn't seem to argue as if Darwinism must be false as biology because it had some bad historical consequences for ethics or politics. I would prefer it if UD would get rid of any references to cultural renewal or combatting materialism and so on from its mission statement, and concentrate on design arguments and criticizing non-design positions scientifically and philosophically. (Which is not to say that ID people should cease to defend their personal philosophical and theological commitments here if atheism and materialism are thrown in their faces by commenters.) And I don't like it when ID supporters here or anywhere argue that ID is against "evolution" or that belief in "evolution" is itself ungodly or wicked. I and others here have sometimes stood up against excesses from the ID camp. I remember admonishing a guy named "Ray" (I think that was the name) who tried to tie ID to Protestant fundamentalism and ended up bad-mouthing Catholics as having a false Christianity. And I remember having allies here on that point. And I've repeatedly said that "evolution" as such is neither bad science nor ungodly in its religious implications. So have many others here: Torley, Cudworth, nullasalus, StephenB ... But I have no authority to control what anyone says here. I could go on. I could say nice things about Darwin. I think the man was largely wrong, but I think his *Origin* is a classic of argumentative literature that every scientist, philosopher and literary critic should read from cover to cover. And I think he was a great natural historian who by and large argued fairly and like a gentleman -- unlike many of his modern defenders. I could even say nice things about Dawkins. He is a great science writer, and honest and up front rather than manipulative and scheming in these culture war debates. He is clueless in religion and philosophy, and embarrasses himself when he writes about them, but his *Blind Watchmaker* should be required reading for all camps. I also think that there have been reasonable, responsible ID critics, like biologist H. Allen Orr, physicist Stephen Barr, historian Ted Davis, and others, and that often Allen MacNeill has been a voice of moderation here. Such people don't hit below the belt. You say ID wallows in the culture war. I see. And the columns of Jeffrey Shallit, Mark Chu-Carroll, P. Z. Myers, Jason Rosenhouse, Larry Moran, etc., *never* stoop so low as to do that? No Wikipedia editor has *ever* let his personal hatred of ID bias his editing? Michael Shermer is always completely objective in his assessments of ID? The people at Biologos are completly above culture-war motivations? Ken Miller is completely above them? Eugenie Scott? Nick Matzke? Abbie Smith? Is the culture war all ID's fault, then? As for appealing to science and reason, and avoiding lengthy disputes about tone, I agree that would be ideal. The best way do to that is to lead by example, by not employing a tone that is unnecessarily aggressive, and focusing entirely on the argument. Behe and Meyer are perfect gentlemen in the way they write and speak in public. One may disagree strongly with their positions, but one cannot fault their manners. I don't see any belligerence in their books or public addresses. I see appeals to data, to peer-reviewed literature, and so on. Can one say the same thing about some of the people I have named above? Does Behe call his opponents Darwinidiots, for example? Does he attempt to match Eugenie Scott's deliberately polemical and baiting phrase "intelligent design creationism" by speaking of "Darwinatheism"? No, he argues from his knowledge of biochemical systems. And I have often held up the example of Denton, who avoids all culture-war squabbling and concentrates on explaining his scientific views. I have praised Shapiro, who criticizes Darwinian theory, but I have also just praised a review of Shapiro by Wilkins who disagrees with him. Both of them stick to the science. I'm happy with that. But a number of anti-ID people won't follow that example. I don't think we are disagreeing on principle here. I think we are disagreeing over who threw the first stone, or the most stones, or who struck the lowest blows, etc. The point is, how can we improve the situation? I'm willing to work with any atheist or TE who will renounce ad hominem comments and call his brethren on them when they make them. I'll try do to the same at my end.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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lastyearon: You are right that it would have been better if I could cite one specific example for Elizabeth. But I couldn't remember one state in particular -- a number of names of states involved in evolution quarrels came into my head -- Kansas, Texas, Louisiana, South Caroline and others -- but I didn't want to go by memory regarding which ones had introduced "scientific criticism" or "critical thought" legislation (as opposed to ID legislation, creationist legislation, teach the controversy legislation), so rather than guess, I referred Elizabeth to the same online sources that I had originally read, where all proposed state policies were analyzed and criticized to death. I simply did not have time to go searching Discovery and NCSE sites and re-read articles I had read months or years ago. But I indicated where the data could be found. It is as if I said that no metal had a melting point higher than 10,000 degrees Celsius, and couldn't remember the particular boiling points of each metal, but know I looked them up in the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. My claim was a broad negation, which could be falsified by producing even one case of the positive. I said that in every instance where States had passed or proposed critical analysis language or scientific criticism language bill, the NCSE had opposed the measure. I still believe that is true. If you or anyone else here can find a single counter-example, I will retract my statement and admit that sometimes the NCSE has sided with such policies. So the ball is in your court. I may have erred, but I did not lie. If you show me the error, I will retract. I don't think it is a harsh accusation to say that people have said false things about Behe and Denton. It is a true accusation. If the truth is harsh, so be it. If people are going to tell lies, they are going to be criticized for it. They should be ashamed to lie, or even to fail to retract an honest error once it is pointed out to them. But I have found that in many cases the rage of the Darwinists overcomes shame. It doesn't need to be this way. People could enter the debate about design versus non-design with open minds and charitable attitudes about the motives of others. Nothing would make me happier. I always try to start out that way myself. But sometimes the rage, the sarcasm, the visceral hatred of anything that might even indirectly make possible the existence of God (such as evidence of design in nature), gets to me and I get drawn into a lower level of debate. Have you never read some of the extreme things said by Mark Chu-Carroll, P. Z. Myers, etc.? Do you think ID proponents should have to take such vile insults lying down, and not defend themselves? Have you ever interceded and told these extremists they are out of line? If not, why not? Let me test you, lastyearon. I've promised here to retract if I am wrong about the NCSE. Do you promise, the next time someone says something false about ID or Behe or Discovery, and texts are produced, to show it is false, and the person who made the error will not retract, to jump in and urge the person to do so? Even if it is a big anti-ID star like Matzke? So if someone says that Behe is a creationist and it is demonstrated that he is an evolutionist, and the person won't retract, you will side with the ID defender who has pointed out the error? Of if someone says that Behe requires miracles and a passage is given that shows he doesn't, and the person won't retract, you will again jump in and side against the Darwinist who is too stubborn to withdraw a false claim? If you will do that, I will greatly respect you.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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@Timaeus, First, that was one seriously overwrought rant. First, I recently just happened to be reading over on (UD Author) Cornelius Hunter's blog, and saw this from Nick Matzke.
Fair enough. I was wrong and I apologize. I think once you've agreed that historical science works in the case of the age of the earth, your arguments against inference in historical science in other cases are sunk, but that's a different debate.
To which, lest you suppose that was sarcastic or somehow not earnest, Hunter responded with this:
Apology accepted and I forgive you wholeheartedly.
That's just from recent memory, a clear example discrediting your... overwroughtness, regarding Matzke, and a solid data point supporting what I claim is a problem that tilts the other way. UD has an execrable record on the part of its advocates of being incorrigible, not in matters of opinion and values, but in matters of fact. It's a human problem that is not monopolized by either side, or any side, but the management here has a whole lot of evidence in the archives of this blog pointing intransigence and just plain refusal act like grown-ups in the face of correction and information about mistakes or screw ups. I know that won't be settled here. But for the record, just by local recall, you have an example of Matzke being a stand up guy. If you can find me one post in all of kairosfocus' posting here like the one I just happened to see a couple days ago from Matzke, let me know, and I will eat crow here and make a donation to the Discovery Institute in your name for $50. vjtorley deserves a tip of the hat as an exception, here, I should say. I don't agree with much more of what he says that kairosfocus, but I know from reading him that he's got the guts to stand up and be corrected, correcting himself or being corrected by others, at least some of the time (and that's not slam, some of the time is a lot in these contexts, especially compared to his peers here). One way forward in these kinds of debates -- and this is a really strong benefit of adopting the methods and culture of science -- is that we aren't limited to overwrought appeals on tone: we can actually do math, apply criteria scientifically, and look at the results. As one of the Republicans said, "this ain't bean bag". That doesn't countenance ad hominems or incivility, but "tone alone" is a dead end. In science circles, the debates can be quite intense and brusque, but they are professional and productive insofar as they don't reach comity by "playing nice", but by DOING SCIENCE, and APPLYING OBJECTIVE TESTS, and PROVIDING FORMAL DETAILED MODELS that we all can examine. And that really is the failure of the ID movement overall, and a particularly damning aspect of the ID advocacy here at UncommonDescent. Someone who seeks constructive debates -- truly constructive through hammering out precise terms, operational models, and the means to apply those models, doing real math with real evidence, with real results -- is taken for a sucker here. No one -- no one -- either can or will engage on a level that admits of honorable and objective adjudication. In 1997 Stephen Hawking conceded defeat in what Leonard Susskind would call in a book he wrote about it "The Black Hole War". The "Susskind-Hawking Battle", as I knew it at the time, was a pitched debate that took a long time to solve, but the parties understood that "tone" doesn't settle anything. Models, predictions and results do. Susskind won the dispute, and Hawking graciously and honorably conceded. The impoverishment of ID is its wallowing in culture war, despite any and all attempts and opportunities to put its ideas and claims to an objective, honorable test. Anyone who really would like to see a scientific dispute engaged and worked out here, even on small issues, is a chump at this blog, sad to say. That doesn't mean critics (or ID advocates) can't make good points, and articulate their positions well. But the merit-based methods, let the models, predictions, math, data and results decide from specific tests and models each produces and lets compete against each other are unable to get any purchase here. So, I understand some of your frustration, and agree that we can always aspire to more responsible and charitable discourse, but that's a hollow, shallow appeal -- that's aiming really, really low -- for a blog with a charter like this one claims for itself.eigenstate
January 31, 2012
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You make harsh accusations. But you don't provide any evidence to support them. In the last discussion you and I were involved in, you said this...
the NCSE has steadily opposed the introduction of scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolution into the school curriculum. In fact, it has usually maintained that there are no scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolution, only religiously-motivated criticisms.
Elizabeth asked you to cite a specific example, and you didn't. Maybe you didn't have the time to do the research. Maybe you know that an example of NCSE opposition to "scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolution" will make it clear that you are equivocating with the term "Darwinsm" in that context. It doesn't matter. You make other accusations about people putting words in your mouth, when you do the exact same thing (per my earlier comment). You're confronted with your errors and you don't retract, (or make half-hearted attempts at apologies that really serve to vindicate yourself). And then you accuse others here of doing the same thing! Your accusations alone have no credibility. How 'bout you provide examples of the ones you made above. Whaddaya say?lastyearon
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, I don't know if anyone continued the conversation with you about Chisel Beach. I looked it up and found this image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shingle_on_Chesil_Beach_at_Chesil_Cove.jpg The shingles (pebbles) don't appear to be as well ordered as you claimed. True, they are smaller at one end of the beach and gradually become larger until they reach the other end. But as the image would suggest, one will find disordered differences within any given space. My guess is that the constant motion of the water against the shingles pushes the smaller ones towards the further end of the beach. Now compare this to getting all the cards of one suit into precise order. What sort of physical force could accomplish that?Bilbo I
January 31, 2012
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I've been following Shapiro's work for years, via his published papers, and I would normally place more credence on peer-reviewed papers than on books and articles/interviews. And I use my own critical faculties. I still don't think that Shapiro's work is anti-Darwinian in the sense I am using the term, whether or not Shapiro disagrees. And right now, I don't know what he means when he says he is non-Darwinian. It doesn't really matter - what matters is what his findings actually imply. And I remain of the view that it is simply incoherent to separate the concept of variance generation from the concept of natural selection. If there is heritable variance in reproductive success, by definition, there is natural selection. If there is no heritable variance, or if it does not sometimes result in differential reproductive success, then there will be no natural selection. Shapiro is proposing mechanisms whereby variance in reproductive success is generated, ergo he is not departing from Darwin's algorithm whatever word you or he want to apply to his view. As for Margulis, we are not even in disagreement, as should have been clear by now, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. We both agree that she rejected "the modern synthesis". She was badly treated I think, over her symbiosis idea, for which she is now highly regarded, but I still think she overstates the distance between her views and the rest of biology. Scientific research is a continuous process of revising previous theories, tweaking old models, and sometimes subjecting old assumptions to fairly radical revision. But to spin either Shapiro or Margulis' work as the death-knell of Darwinism as though it moves science nearer to ID, is simply wrong, IMO. It's simply the death-knell to some bits of evolutionary theory that are now replaced by less wrong bits. And so it will go on, till the sun fails.Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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Elizabeth (5.1.1.2.8): I won't cavil with you any longer about Margulis. I found you passages where Shapiro criticized "Darwinian" mechanisms, and I wouldn't be surprised if I could find passages where Margulis uses the same term. But even if I can't, the *theoretically viable* version of Darwinism from about 1930 to about 1980 (and in some places, up to the present) has been what is called The Modern Synthesis (or Modern Synthesis as core, dressed up with some ancillary mechanisms), and if you read the two pieces by Margulis that I pointed you to, you will not be able to deny that she has intellectual contempt for that form of Darwinism; she says explicitly that she regards it as incompetent to explain the origin of strikingly novel biological form. The direct quotations are abundant in the sources, and I'm not doing any more work for you; you will have to find them yourself. If you don't agree with me that this is her attitude, then our disagreement will not be over Biology, but over the interpretation of clear English prose. As I said above, I think your definition of "Darwinian" is too broad, and encompasses too much to be a useful term of distinction. That the points you mention are "Darwinian" I have never contested; that they are a sufficient and complete definition of "Darwinian" I do not grant, as that is not the usage I have encountered in the writing of most full-time evolutionary biologists that I have read over the past 40+ years. Usually the word means somewhat more than your minimalist definition, and in past posts I have already tried to flesh that out. I have no more time to do it again. I will continue to use a more multi-pronged definition of Darwinian in the future, so if you do decide to debate with me, please don't debate over the meaning of "Darwinian" any more; you know what I mean, so just translate it into your private evolutionary language, and respond to the substance rather than the vocabulary. I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs that you've been arguing for days about what Shapiro thinks and haven't yet started reading his brand-new book. And I know from your responses that you hadn't read his comments on the Discovery site until I pointed them out to you. (Which has already forced you into one retraction which you could easily have avoided if you had read first and formed your opinion later.) When you started arguing about Shapiro, you had read, what, one journal article of his from what year? And you were prepared to debate with Vincent who had read his new book and many other things of his besides? Why do you enjoy this "read a short article and fly by the seat of your pants" style of intellectual exchange? What joy do you get out of it? Why not study your authors carefully first before venturing an opinion? That's what you would be expected to do if you were publishing an article in an evolutionary biology journal. You'd be expected to know the relevant authors cold. So why are we subjected to "Lizzie at the Improv" when with a little patience you could supply us with an intellectual act that was well-rehearsed? :-) You can have the last word; I must break off here.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Re whether or not Shapiro is Darwinian, please see my remarks above, at https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-417905 . In particular, I’d be interested to hear your answer to my question: Do you think Charles Darwin would have agreed with the statement: “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change”? That’s what Shapiro wrote.
Done :)
By the way, I suggest you have a look at the talk by Rupert Sheldrake at http://vimeo.com/33479544 , which bornagain77 kindly linked to. It’ll shatter your belief in materialism. Mind-blowing stuff.
Also done. I'm sorry vjtorley, but I find that talk deeply unimpressive. For a start, he sets up a complete straw man at the beginning with his account of mainstream vision science, as well as his description of consciousness studies. Throughout he makes transparent logical fallacies (just because lots of people report the experience of being watched doesn't mean that lots of people can actually detect being watched), and makes sweeping statistical claims for allegedly replicated experiments (with infinitessimal combined p values) with no attempt to do any kind of meta-analysis, or correct for methodological flaws. I've read several empirical papers by Sheldrake, and his methodological technique is terrible. So he has several credibility mountains to climb for me: first I have to put aside his apparent ignorance of the science he is claiming to overturn; second, his apparent lack of understanding that the plural of anecdote is not "data" but "anecdotes" and that the reason for that is the word "response bias"; thirdly, the glib way he fails to address any alternative hypotheses for his findings; fourthly the way he repeatedly refers to his "morphic field" theory, despite the fact there is no evidence at all for the existence of such a field; and fifthly, his terrible track record in regard to methodological rigour, coupled with his apparent unawareness of any such problem in his own studies. It's possible that there are sensory modalities that we are as yet unaware of (for example, many animals are able to detect the electromagnetic fields surrounding other living things; some animals can see outside our visible spectrum; dogs clearly have a sense that gives them a sense of the world much more akin to the sense we get from sight. And it's even possible (I'm open to it) that there yet other modalities, about which we know nothing as yet. But he doesn't demonstrate good evidence for it, and the fact that so much of his reasoning is clearly flawed makes me regard what alleged evidence he does cite with great skepticism. So my verdict is: "interesting, if true".Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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Petrushka: I'm no expert on the argument from genetic entropy. But before judging the concept, you should read John Sanford's book if you haven't already. He's certainly a bona fide research geneticist, from an Ivy League school, with biological patents to boot, so presumably, though he may be wrong, he is not a scientific incompetent. From the little I understand of his position, his view is not that we do in fact observe genetic entropy, but that, on Darwinian premises, we should observe it, or at least more of it than we do, and therefore something non-Darwinian is going on to combat the entropy. If I have that right, the Chernobyl observations would not count against his view. But don't rely on me; read what he says. I understand how natural selection is supposed to work. I don't contest the plausibility of the notion, in the abstract. The problem is generating evolutionary novelty for natural selection to process. That's where most of the criticism of the Modern Synthesis is coming from these days. (Though I gather that natural selection is taking some hits, too.) The future may not be predictable in detail but its general outlines may be predictable. We cannot predict the exact shape that water droplets will take in a cloud, but we can predict that they will form clouds. The question is whether evolution as a process could be designed ahead of time so as to be predictable in its general outlines. This is the view of Michael Denton, that it could be so designed. So it cannot predict the birth of Petruskha, but it can predict the emergence of some sort of humanoid or analogous-to-humanoid intelligence on a planet like earth. Here Denton differs from Gould quite a bit, and is closer to Conway Morris, though I think there are still important differences between them. But I suspect that Denton does not agree with you that evolution is a chaotic system. (It certainly must be, on any Darwinian-type model, but Denton thinks there are non-Darwinian possibilities.) I am not arguing here that Denton is right, but if he is right, then it is very clear that evolution and design are not the opposites that you are painting them. That is why ID proponent bristle when, having explained such things a hundred times on UD and just as often on Telic Thoughts and in TE venues and elsewhere, they hear over and over again the charge that ID demands miracles or interventions. As for Shapiro, the only thing I have claimed is that his view is not incompatible with ID. From an ID point of view, the design of the first cells still needs to be explained. Where did this marvel, with its powers of evolutionary self-engineering, get those powers? Shapiro does not answer that question. And that's honest; he doesn't know the answer. But until he can answer it, he cannot rule out a design origin for the very features of life on which his evolutionary theory leans.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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Thanks for the retraction, Elizabeth. It was not explicit before. Of course all evolutionary biologists owe *something* to Darwin. Newton owed a fair bit to Galileo, too, but his disagreements with Galileo, where they existed, were major. And Einstein owed something to Newton, but his disagreements, where they existed, were non-trivial. For that matter, Galileo owed something important to Aristotle, but his criticism of Aristotle was of central import for physical theory. Shapiro and Margulis are not merely updating or tweaking what is normally called “Darwinian” theory (a term which no one in the field limits to only the exact views held by Darwin); they are suggesting a major reorientation about how major novelties in form arise.
Well, it's obviously a "major reorientation" from Darwin, because Darwin had no idea how any novelty arose.
When Margulis said that John Maynard Smith didn’t understand evolution (!), she was throwing down a gauntlet, and if you grasp that, then any defensive quibbles about her saying “neo-Darwinian” rather than “Darwinian” seem quite silly.
To you, perhaps, but obviously not to her, because she was very explicit about claiming to be a Darwinian, not a neo-Darwinian.
Smith and the other leaders of mainstream 20th-century biology conceived of themselves as faithful to the original insights of Darwin (while correcting his obvious factual errors), and hence as authentically “Darwinian.” It’s precisely the *inadequacy* of that “corrected but faithful” Darwinian position that Shapiro and Margulis and others are now criticizing. So no matter how you play around with the terms, the result is the same: Darwin’s detailed science is hopelessly outdated, and the improved Darwinian evolutionary science of Smith, Mayr, Dobzhansky, etc. is the target of the critics I’m speaking of.
Of course Darwin is outdated. Of course Smith, Mayr, Dobzhansky are outdated. Evolutionary biology is a continuously developing field. But no-one has yet thrown out Darwin's basic principle (give it another name if you don't want to call it - Wallacian, perhaps) that heritable variance in reproductive success leads to the adaptation of populations to their environment. That principle remains fundamental to evolutionary biology.
If you are going to try to shoehorn Margulis and Shapiro into the “Darwinian” camp, then all that one can say is that “Darwinian” theory is extremely broad; indeed, if they fit into it,it would be hard to see any difference between Darwinian theory and evolutionary theory generally.
No, it would simply mean that what unites the field is the fundamental principle that heritable variance in reproductive success leads to adaptive evolution, no matter what the arguments about the generation of that variance, or the level at which "reproductive success" is measured (between cells; between organisms; between populations).
But that is a ludicrous result, since the whole point of Darwinian theory was to provide a particular mechanism for evolution; it has to be distinguishable from non-Darwinian theories, e.g., Lamarck’s, Denton’s. If Darwinian theory is (as you seem to think) essentially nothing more than variation plus inheritable change, then every evolutionary theory is Darwinian.
Yes, it was: the mechanism of heritable variance in reproductive success. And, sure, I think most evolutionary theories are Darwinian. It's so obvious that it must happen, that even Creationists invoke it to explain the divergence of baramins post-flood. Within evolutionary theories that invoke the Darwinian mechanism, obviously people differ in how they think it works, and we are now much more aware of the role of drift, and of regulatory genes, and "evo-devo", as well as Margulis' drift theory, and population-level selection (as with Shapiro), and the biochemistry of DNA sequence shuffling. None of this was known to Darwin, or even Gould. The concept of drift seems to escape Dawkins. But it doesn't make these theories "non-Darwinian" in the sense that I am using the term. The basic Darwinian mechanism is still invoked. What does separate some of these theories of course, is the idea that some external designer created the variants at key points, or adjusted the code. AFAIK, neither Shapiro or Margulis has proposed this.
Once again I refer you to the Wilkins review of Shapiro, cited below. If the distinctions Wilkins makes do not convince you of the importance of the point I am making, I am sure that nothing further that I can say will do so.
Well, I'll wait until my own copy of Shapiro's book arrives :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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OK, we agree on some things. I have trouble getting excited about challenges to "Darwinism" that do not include what I consider the non-negotiable difference between evolution and ID, and that would be in the predictability of need and solutions to need. I think evolution is what it is because the future in a chaotic system is not predictable in detail over large periods of time. I think evolution is what it is because protein folding and coding sequences are inherently unpredictable. I've looked as some very recent papers on sequence prediction, and the best methods appear to involve GAs, methods that mimic biological evolution. So evolution proceeds by producing variations at a rate consistent with population survival. I'm aware of the claims of genetic entropy and meltdown, but I don't see it happening. Measurements of mutations in the vicinity of Chernobyl indicate a rate three times "normal," and yet populations are thriving. Natural selection is a kind of negative feedback. Negative feedback is a powerful way of stabilizing a dynamic system. All audio amplifiers use it to prevent runaway oscillation. Living populations combine feedback with the ability to remember the changes responsible for any improved function. The system doesn't guarantee perpetual survival. Populations go extinct. But so far as we know, it guarantees the survival of life itself, because so many variations exist that they do not all go extinct.Petrushka
January 31, 2012
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Petrushka: I agree with what you say about the early history of Darwin's theory. But Shapiro, Margulis and other modern critics are reacting not to early versions of the theory but to the Modern Synthesis of about 75 years ago, which dominated evolutionary theory for most of the next 50 years and still is the core ingredient in mainstream evolutionary theory, around which other putative mechanisms tend to crystallize. Almost no idea in science or philosophy or theology or anything else is entirely original, so I have no problem admitting that Shapiro's theory has earlier analogues. The point is not that he is entirely novel; the point is that his view attacks core positions of the Modern Synthesis. I don't think this is contestable, on any honest reading of his work. I am not here trying to establish that Shapiro is right; I have been trying to rebut people who say he is Darwinian; that is a misleading description, to say the least. I agree that Shapiro invokes no designer; I've said that several times, and I don't know why people keep thinking they need to tell me what I've already said I agree with. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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Yes, you intended it as a statement of what you believed, but you wrote it in the context of a refutation of my points. Most of your replies to me are of the form: "You are wrong because ..." (repeat n times in n paragraphs, as needed). So I took it that you were refuting something that you thought I believed. I'm not browbeating you, just explaining how I read it. A suggestion: You could have written: "I know you haven't said this, but some people here seem to believe that Margulis and Shapiro think ... and that is wrong." Which Maggie Smith character? She played hundreds of characters! Though I did see her as Lady MacBeth once, and, now that I think about it, ... :-) (nyuk, nyuk) :-) JUST JOKIN' :-)Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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I missed commenting on this part in my earlier response. vjtorley writes:
Adam Wilkins, in his review of Shapiro’s book, evidently disagreed with you. Commenting on Shapiro’s claims that “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change” and that “Selection operates as a purifying but not creative force”, which tend to belittle the importance of natural selection in evolution,
I tend to agree with Shapiro on that. But it is really two different ways of describing the same thing. We have an ever changing environment and an ever changing population. The two interact. We can give a description in which the environment is taken as the main actor. And that would be the traditional "natural selection" account. Or we can give a description where the population is taken as the main actor. We could step back from either, and just say that there's an interaction. But our language allows us to be more specific in our description if we present it with one of the two being the main actor. Given two choices of main actor, which should we choose? One choice describes the environment (in the form of natural selection) as an intentional actor. And everyone understands that the intentionality is false. The other choice is to describe the population as an intentional actor. And maybe the intentionality is false there, too. However, everything about biology suggests some degree of intentionality, so I'm not sure that the intentionality is false. It seems to me that it can be fully accounted for in the behavior of the homestatic processes that we find in biological systems. Presenting the population as the main actor should draw our attention more to the natural feedback cycles that exist within biological systems. So I prefer that form of explanation.Neil Rickert
January 31, 2012
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I commented on this but put it in the wrong place.
It is not circular to describe a system that learns intelligent.
Your argument that it isn't circular is a bit circular. It's intelligent because it learns. How do we know it learns? Because it's intelligent. Or were you just begging the question - reasserting that evolution "learned" how to do everything? How does that work? If you reassert your conclusion enough times do you get a trip to Mexico, or at least a toaster?
Yes, Scott, GAs are learning algorithms.
That really tells us nothing at all. Perhaps we're equivocating on "learning." Goldfish learn. That doesn't mean they design immune systems. Chess programs are intelligent. But all they do is play chess. You can add the adjective "intelligent" to your idea of what you believe evolutionary processes have accomplished or can accomplish. I'll go along. If it did any of those things, then it is a form of intelligence. So now we've added an adjective. What bearing does that have on the underlying question of whether or not it did or can do these things that we have agreed to call "intelligent?"ScottAndrews2
January 31, 2012
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lastyearon: I had an independent reason for my inference, based entirely on the internal logic of Elizabeth's letter. I set forth that reason, and it had nothing to do with what other posters here said. I had already written my reply to Elizabeth up, when I remembered what the other posters had done, and I threw in the remark you are complaining about as an afterthought, so it doesn't affect my core statement. Still, I can be generous to you and concede that ID proponents do from time to time make unfavorable assumptions about what their opponents mean. Yet civilized people can get over that. I had a great dialogue recently with aiguy, whose motives I at first distrusted. That happened because we each cut the other some slack and listened. We ended up finding a surprising degree of common ground. But what am I supposed to do when the same small group of people here, time after time, on thread after thread, keeps trotting out the "ID means miracles" trope, even after everyone here (a) denies it, and (b) explains at great length, on multiple threads, why miracles are not necessary for ID? Do you expect me to believe that these people are sincere debaters? Similarly, the "Who designed the designer?" argument has been refuted scores of times, but people who know that still keep bringing it up. Should I impute high motives to people who employ sophistry like that? Sincere debaters, who are after truth rather than simply blood sport, don't behave in that way. They either try to refute the point, or they concede the point. Or they say: "I'm not sure. You've given me food for thought. Give me a couple of weeks to chew on that one, and I'll get back to you." They *don't* just go silent, and then make the same argument again on another thread in hopes that no one will notice that their argument has already been refuted elsewhere. More than one person here has said false things about Michael Denton, and then, when exposed by someone who has actually read Denton's works, has retreated, to say the same false things a few days or weeks later on another thread. More than one person here has said false things about Michael Behe, been shown direct quotations that refute the charge, and conducted himself in the same way. Once a pattern like that develops, one tends to get a reflex activity when a new poster makes an argument identical in form that bad-mouths Behe or Denton or Meyer or Dembski etc. One tends to assume that the distortion or the sophistical reasoning is deliberate. I make a point of *not* saying false things about Shapiro, Miller, Dawkins, Margulis, etc. I may occasionally make an error in interpretation, but I don't make stuff up, I don't literature bluff about stuff I haven't read, and when shown I'm wrong, I don't use the same argument again elsewhere. So I think I've earned trust, even from those who disagree with me. That's more than I can say for many Darwinists who post here and elsewhere on the internet. Misrepresentation seems to be their game. You want more trust? Earn it. Let's hear some Darwinists here repudiate some false things that other Darwinists here have said about Behe; let's hear a Darwinist here admit that the phrase "intelligent design creationism" is deliberately demagogical when used by the NCSE in political contexts. Let's hear some Darwinists here say that federal judges are incompetent to settle questions of science and theology (as they would have said if the Dover Trial had gone the other way). Let's hear Nick Matzke just once, in years of posting here, admit he has made an error of any kind, or grant a substantive point to anyone, or state even one thing he has learned from reading an ID book. (Is every single word on every single page of every ID book false and deceptive? Does Nick Matzke know more about biology, biochemistry, probability theory, philosophy of science, etc., than every ID proponent on the planet? Unlikely.) And when someone says: Shapiro criticizes Darwinian mechanisms, let's hear just one Darwinian here say, clearly and unambiguously: "You're right; he does," instead of replying "There's no way Shapiro supports ID," which is a non sequitur and is (I believe) generally devised to change the topic from the legitimate, non-religious, scientific criticism of Darwinism. The Darwinians who post here tend to be (with a few notable exceptions, like Allan MacNeill) dogmatic, doctrinaire, baiting, filled with rehearsed arguments from Panda's Thumb, and obviously anti-religious in motivation. Doesn't give us much trust to go on, does it? How about some dialogue that suggests: "I don't know whether unguided mechanisms were sufficient to achieve this result, or whether some intelligent guidance or planning was required. Let's search the answer out together." Any chance we will get that tone from you, lastyearon? Or Petrushka? When I start seeing that dialogical approach, as opposed to the "dig in your heels and don't grant those ID people an inch or they'll take a mile" approach, I'll start to be much more charitable in the way I read arguments here that at first glance seem dishonest, bluffing, sarcastic, motive-mongering, New Atheist chest-thumping, etc. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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ScottAndrews2:
You are saying that living things cannot predict the future, and so they exercise foresight instead, having on hand what they will likely need.
I'm not sure where you are getting that "foresight". It is not anything that I have suggested. Randomness does not depend on foresight. Perhaps you are seeing a claim of foresight in my comment about the value of maintaining some variation within the population. But standard Darwinian reasoning would say that if populations that maintain variation do better, then they will win the natural selection game. No actual foresight is required.Neil Rickert
January 31, 2012
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Ah, here :) Yes, Scott, GAs are learning algorithms. They are awesome learning algorithms, so much so that we use them to model learning as well as to model evolution. And, to learn with, of course :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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*pricks up ears at the word "learns"* Who are you responding to, where, Scott?Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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Actually, Elizabeth, you did implicitly accuse me of something. In a post addressed to me, and disputing some of my claims, you opened a paragraph with: “Neither Margulis nor Shapiro think that variation is generated by a designer.” How else was I to take that remark, but as a statement of what you thought I believed about Margulis and Shapiro?
As a statement of what I believed about Margulis and Shapiro! Seriously, I'm not the Maggie Smith character you seem to think I am :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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