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It’s all about information, Professor Feser

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Over at his blog, Professor Edward Feser has been writing a multi-part critique of Professor Alex Rosenberg’s bestselling book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions. Rosenberg is an unabashed defender of scientism, an all-out reductionist who doesn’t believe in a “self”, doesn’t believe we have thoughts that are genuinely about anything, and doesn’t believe in free will or morality. Instead, he advocates what he calls “nice nihilism.” In the last line of his book, Rosenberg advises his readers to “Take a Prozac or your favorite serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and keep taking them till they kick in.”

Edward Feser has done an excellent job of demolishing Rosenberg’s arguments, and if readers want to peruse his posts from start to finish, they can read them all here:

Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four
Part Five
Part Six

Professor Rosenberg’s argument that Darwinism is incompatible with God

In his latest installment, Professor Feser takes aim at an argument put forward by Rosenberg, that Darwinism is incompatible with the idea that God is omniscient. In his reply to Rosenberg, Feser also takes a swipe at Intelligent Design, about which I’ll have more to say below. In the meantime, let’s have a look at Rosenberg’s argument against theistic evolution.

Rosenberg argues as follows: Darwinian processes, being non-teleological, do not aim at the generation of any particular kind of species, including the human species. What’s more, these processes contain a built-in element of irreducible randomness: variation. Mutations are random, and no one could have known in advance that evolution would go the way it did. Therefore if God had used such processes as a means of creating us, He could not have known that they would be successful, and therefore He would not be omniscient.

In his response, Feser criticizes Professor Rosenberg’s argument on several grounds, arguing that:

(i) belief in the God of classical theism does not logically entail that the emergence of the human race was an event planned by Him (i.e. God might have intentionally made the cosmos, but we might have been an accident);

(ii) God may have intended that the universe should contain rational beings (who possess the ability to reason by virtue of their having immortal souls) without intending that these beings should be human beings, with the kind of body that Homo sapiens possesses – hence our bodies may be the result of an accidental process;

(iii) if you believe in the multiverse (which Feser doesn’t but Rosenberg does), it is perfectly consistent to hold that while the evolution of Homo sapiens may have been improbable in any particular universe, nevertheless it would have been inevitable within some universe; and

(iv) in any case, the probabilistic nature of Darwinian processes does not rule out divine intervention.

Professor Feser’s big beef with Rosenberg’s argument: Divine causality is of a different order from that of natural causes

But Professor Feser’s chief objection to Rosenberg’s anti-theistic argument is that it ignores the distinction between Divine and creaturely causality. At this point, Feser takes pains to distinguish his intellectual position from that of the Intelligent Design movement. He remarks: “What Aristotelian-Thomistic critics of ID fundamentally object to is ID’s overly anthropomorphic conception of God and its implicit confusion of primary and secondary causality.” (I should point out in passing that Intelligent Design is a scientific program, and as such, it makes no claim to identify the Designer. Nevertheless, many Intelligent Design proponents would be happy to refer to this Designer as God.)

God, argues Feser, is like the author of a book. Intelligent natural agents (e.g. human beings) are the characters in the story, while sub-intelligent agents correspond to the everyday processes described within the story. The key point here is that God is outside the book that He creates and maintains in existence (i.e. the cosmos), while we are inside it. God’s causality is therefore of an entirely different order from that of creatures. To say that God intervened in the history of life in order to guarantee that Homo sapiens would emerge (as Rosenberg seems to think that believers in God-guided evolution are bound to believe) is tantamount to treating God like one of the characters in His own story. In Feser’s words, it “is like saying that the author of a novel has to ‘intervene’ in the story at key points, keeping events from going the way they otherwise would in order to make sure that they turn out the way he needs them to for the story to work.” In reality, authors don’t need to intervene into their stories to obtain the outcomes they want, and neither need we suppose that God intervened in the history of life on Earth, so as to guarantee the emergence of human beings.

Feser then argues that things in the world derive their being and causal power from God, just as the characters in a story only exist and alter the course of events within the story because the author of the story wrote it in a way that allows them to do so. For this reason, Feser has no philosophical problem with the notion of Darwinian processes being sufficient to generate life, or biological species such as Homo sapiens. Causal agents possesss whatever powers God wants them to have, and their (secondary) causality is genuine, and perfectly compatible with the (primary) causality of God, their Creator. Just as “it would be absurd to suggest that in a science fiction novel in which such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species, but rather the author of the story who does so and merely made it seem as if Darwinian processes had done it,” so too, “it is absurd to suggest that if God creates a world in which human beings come about by natural selection, He would have to intervene in order to make the Darwinian processes come out the way He wants them to, in which case they would not be truly Darwinian.”

The problem isn’t one of insufficient causal power in Nature; it’s all about information

When I read this passage, I thought, “Aha! Now I see why Professor Feser thinks Intelligent Design proponents have got the wrong end of the stick. Now I see why he thinks we are committed to belief in a tinkering Deity who has to intervene in the natural order in order to change it.” For Feser inadvertently revealed two very interesting things in his thought-provoking post.

The first thing that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed was that he thinks that the difficulty that Intelligent Design proponents have with Darwinian evolution has to do with power – in particular, the causal powers of natural agents. As an Aristotelian-Thomist, Feser sees no difficulty in principle with God granting natural agents whatever causal powers He wishes, so long as they are not powers that only a Creator could possess. Why could not God therefore give mud the power to evolve into microbes, and thence into biological species such as Homo sapiens?

But the problem that Intelligent Design advocates have with this scenario has nothing to do with the powers of causal agents. Rather, it’s all about information: complex specified information, to be precise. By definition, any pattern in Nature that is highly improbable (from a naturalistic perspective) but is nevertheless capable of being described in a few words, instantiates complex specified information (CSI). So the philosophical question we need to address here is not: could God give mud the power to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man, but rather: could God give mud the complex specified information required for it to evolve into microbes and thence into the body of a man?

The answer to this question, as Edward Feser should be aware from having read Professor Michael Behe’s book, The Edge of Evolution (Free Press, 2007, pp. 238-239), is that Intelligent Design theory is perfectly compatible with such front-loading scenarios. Indeed, Behe argues that God might have fine-tuned the initial conditions of the universe at the Big Bang, in such a way that life’s subsequent evolution – and presumably that of human beings – was inevitable, without the need for any subsequent acts of God.

A second possibility is that God added complex specified information to the universe at some point (or points) subsequent to the Big Bang – e.g. at the dawn of life, or the Cambrian explosion – thereby guaranteeing the results He intended.

A third possibility is that the universe contains hidden laws, as yet unknown to science, which are very detailed, highly elaborate and specific, unlike the simple laws of physics that we know. On this scenario, complex specified information belongs to the very warp and woof of the universe: it’s a built-in feature, requiring no initial fine-tuning.

Personally, my own inclination is to plump for the second scenario, and say that we live in a cosmos which is made to be manipulated: it’s an inherently incomplete, open system, and the “gaps” are a vital part of Nature, just as the holes are a vital feature of Swiss cheese. I see no reason to believe in the existence of hidden, information-rich laws of the cosmos, especially when all the laws we know are low in information content; moreover, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out in his book, Signature in the Cell, all the scientific evidence we have points against the idea of “biochemical predestination”: simple chemicals do not naturally arrange themselves into complex information-bearing molecules such as DNA. I also think that front-loading the universe at the Big Bang would have required such an incredibly exquisite amount of fine-tuning on God’s part that it would have been much simpler for Him to “inject” complex specified information into the cosmos at a later date, when it was required. (When I say “at a later date”, I mean “later” from our time-bound perspective, of course, as the God of classical theism is timeless.) However, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Complex specified information has to come from somewhere

One thing I’m quite sure of, though: not even God could make a universe without finely-tuned initial conditions and without information-rich laws, that was still capable of generating life without any need for a special act of God (or what Intelligent Design critics derogatorily refer to as “Divine intervention”, “manipulation” or “tinkering”). The reason why this couldn’t happen is that complex specified information doesn’t come from nowhere. It needs a source. And this brings me to the second point that Professor Feser inadvertently revealed in his post: he seems to think that information can just appear in the cosmos wherever God wants it to appear, without God having to perform any specific act that generates it.

This is where the book metaphor leads Feser astray, I believe. The author of a book doesn’t have to specify exactly how the events in his/her story unfold. All stories written by human authors are under-specified, in terms of both the states of affairs they describe – e.g. what’s the color of the house at 6 Privet Drive, next door to Harry Potter’s house? – and in terms of the processes occurring within the story – e.g. how exactly do magic wands do their work in Harry Potter? What law is involved? J. K. Rowling doesn’t tell us these things, and I don’t think most of her readers care, anyway.

But here’s the thing: God can’t afford to be vague about such matters. He’s not just writing a story; He’s making a world. Everything that He brings about in this world, He has to specify in some way: what happens, and how does it happen?

One way in which God could bring about a result He desires is by specifying the initial conditions in sufficient detail, such that the result is guaranteed to arise, given the ordinary course of events.

A second way for God to bring about a result He wants is for Him to specify the exact processes generating the result, in such detail that its subsequent production is bound to occur. (On this scenario, God brings about His desired effect through the operation of deterministic laws.)

A third way for God to produce a desired effect is for Him to make use of processes that do not infallibly yield a set result – i.e. probabilistic occurrences, which take place in accordance with indeterministic laws, and which involve a certain element of what we call randomness. In this case, God would not only have to specify the probabilistic processes He intends to make use of, but also specify the particular outcome He desires these processes to generate. (This could be accomplished by God without Him having to bias the probabilities of the processes in any way: all that is needed is top-down causation, which leaves the micro-level probabilistic processes intact but imposes an additional macro-level constraint on the outcome. For a description of how this would work, see my recent post, Is free will dead?)

Finally, God may refuse to specify any natural process or set of initial conditions that could help to generate the result He desires, and instead, simply specify the precise spatio-temporal point in the history of the cosmos.at which the result will occur. That’s what we call an act of God, and in such a case, the result is said to be brought about purely by God’s will, which acts as an immediate efficient cause generating the effect.

But whatever the way in which God chooses to bring about the result He desires, He must make a choice. He cannot simply specify the effect He desires, without specifying its cause – whether it be His Will acting immediately on Nature to bring about a desired effect, or some natural process and/or set of conditions operating in a manner that tends to generate the effect. Whatever God does, God has to do somehow.

But couldn’t God make evolution occur as a result of a probabilistic process?

Let’s go back to the third way available to God for generating a desired result: namely, working through probabilistic processes. What does Intelligent Design theory have to say about this Divine modus operandi? Basically, what it says is that it is impossible for God to remain hidden, if He chooses this way of acting, and if the desired effect is both improbable (in the normal course of events) and capable of being described very briefly – in other words, rich in complex specified information. For even if the micro-level probabilities are in no way affected by His agency, the macro-level effect constitutes a pattern in Nature which we can recognize as the work of an intelligent agent, since it is rich in CSI.

Professor Feser, working from his authorial metaphor for God, seems to have overlooked this point. The human author of a story can simply write: “Y occurred, as a freakish but statistically possible result of process X.” Here, the author simply specifies the result he/she intends (effect Y) and the process responsible (probabilistic process X, which, as luck would have it, produced Y). Because the effect in the story (Y) is both the result of a natural process (X) occurring in the story, and the result (on a higher level) of the author’s will, it appears that nothing more needs to be said. Feser seems to think that the same holds true for effects brought about by God, working through probabilistic processes: they are both the work of Nature and the work of God. Hence, he believes, nothing prevents God from producing life by a Darwinistic process, if He so chooses.

Not so fast, say Intelligent Design proponents. Probabilistic processes have no inherent tendency to generate outcomes that can be concisely described in language. If an outcome that can be described in a very concise manner is generated by a probabilistic process, and if the likelihood of the outcome is sufficiently low, then it is simply wrong to put this down to the work of Nature. The real work here is done by God, the Intelligent Agent Who specified the outcome in question. It’s fundamentally wrong to give any credit to the natural probabilistic process for the result obtained, in a case like this: for even if God works through such a process, the process itself has no tendency to aim for concisely describable outcomes. God-guided evolution is therefore by definition non-Darwinian. Contrary to Feser, it is not absurd for Intelligent Design proponents to argue that when “such-and-such a species evolves, it is not really Darwinian processes that generate the species,” since Darwinian processes are inherently incapable of generating large amounts of complex specific information, and when we trace the evolution of any species back far enough, we will find that large amounts of complex specific information had to be generated.

Putting it another way: not even God could make an unintelligent natural process with a built-in tendency to hone in on outcomes having a short verbal description. Such a feat is logically impossible, because it would be tantamount to making an unintelligent process capable of making linguistic choices – which is absurd, because language is a hallmark of intelligent agents. Not even God can accomplish that which is logically imposible.

I hope Professor Feser now recognizes what the real point at issue is between Darwinism and Intelligent Design theory. I hope he also realizes that Intelligent Design is not committed to an anthropomorphic Deity, or to any particular Divine modus operandi. ID proponents are well aware of the distinction between primary and secondary causality; we just don’t think it’s very useful in addressing the problem of where the complex specified information in Nature came from. The problem here is not one of finding a primary (or secondary) cause that can generate the information, but rather one of finding an intelligent agent that can do so. Lastly, ID proponents do not think of God as a “tinkerer who cleverly intervenes in a natural order that could in principle have carried on without him,” for the simple reason that Intelligent Design is a scientific program concerned with the detection of patterns in Nature that are the result of intelligent agency, and not a metaphysical program concerned with the being of Nature as such. Metaphysical arguments that Nature depends for its being on God are all well and good, but they’re not scientific arguments as such. For this reason, these metaphysical arguments fall outside the province of Intelligent Design, although they are highly regarded by some ID proponents.

Is Variation Random?

Finally, I’d like to challenge the claim made by Professor Rosenberg and other Darwinists that biological variation is random. Stephen Talbott has skilfully dismantled this claim in a highly original article in The New Atlantis, entitled, Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness. Talbott takes aim at the oft-heard claim, popularized by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, that Nature operates with no purpose in mind, and that evolution is the outcome of random variation, culled by the non-random but mindless mechanism of natural selection. Talbott’s scientific arguments against Dawkins and Dennett are devastating, and he makes a convincing scientific case that mutation is anything but random in real life; that the genomes of organisms respond to environmental changes in a highly co-ordinated and purposeful fashion; and that even the most minimal definition of random variation – i.e. the commonly held view that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – crumbles upon inspection, as the whole concept of “usefulness” or “fitness” turns out to be irretrievably obscure. At the end of his article, Talbott summarizes his case:

Here, then, is what the advocates of evolutionary mindlessness and meaninglessness would have us overlook. We must overlook, first of all, the fact that organisms are masterful participants in, and revisers of, their own genomes, taking a leading position in the most intricate, subtle, and intentional genomic “dance” one could possibly imagine. And then we must overlook the way the organism responds intelligently, and in accord with its own purposes, to whatever it encounters in its environment, including the environment of its own body, and including what we may prefer to view as “accidents.” Then, too, we are asked to ignore not only the living, reproducing creatures whose intensely directed lives provide the only basis we have ever known for the dynamic processes of evolution, but also all the meaning of the larger environment in which these creatures participate — an environment compounded of all the infinitely complex ecological interactions that play out in significant balances, imbalances, competition, cooperation, symbioses, and all the rest, yielding the marvelously varied and interwoven living communities we find in savannah and rainforest, desert and meadow, stream and ocean, mountain and valley. And then, finally, we must be sure to pay no heed to the fact that the fitness, against which we have assumed our notion of randomness could be defined, is one of the most obscure, ill-formed concepts in all of science.

Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see — somewhere — blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change….

This “something random” … is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.

My response to Rosenberg

I would like to briefly respond to Professor Rosenberg’s argument that belief in God is incompatible with Darwinism. He is right about one thing: not even God can use randomness to bring about highly specific results, without “injecting” the complex specified information that guarantees the production of the result in question. If you’re a thoroughgoing Darwinist who believes that evolutionary variation is inherently random and that Nature is a closed system, then there’s no way for God to do His work. However, on an empirical level, I see no reason to believe that evolutionary variation is inherently random: Talbott’s article, from which I quoted above, cites evidence that the effects of environmental change on an organism’s genome are highly co-ordinated by the organism itself. What’s more, recent scientific evidence that even the multiverse must have had a beginning, and that even the multiverse must have been exquisitely fine-tuned, points very strongly to the fact that Nature is not a closed system. (See my article, Vilenkin’s verdict: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning”, which also contains links to my recent posts on cosmological fine-tuning.) And of course, Professor Feser has done an excellent job of expounding the metaphysical arguments showing that Nature is not self-sufficient, but requires a Cause.

Comments
Oh, my bad. I didn't realize that it learns. When you put it that way I suppose it must be intelligent. Nothing circular here.ScottAndrews2
January 31, 2012
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It is not circular to describe a system that learns intelligent. Learning via feedback can be described independently of labels.Petrushka
January 31, 2012
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I've read the book, and I've quoted extensively from it. I've read the review. My own take is that the apparent controversy is the result of incautious writing. It reminds me of the quip that a manuscript is both good and original, but the parts that are original are not good, and the parts that are good are not original. That's too harsh, but it's my impression. It's really rather difficult to come up with original critiques of evolution. For the first 80 years after "Origin" there was no widespread agreement at all about any part of Darwin's theory. There were disagreements about saltation and about natural selection, not to mention disagreements about Lamarkian variation. So to write as if Shapiro has an original and unique perspective is to ignore history. Evolvability is an old idea. He has brought considerable expertise to the task of defining it and presenting it as something that can be rigorously studied, but it is not his original idea. One of the things ignored by Shapiro and described in the review is that the mechanisms that Shapiro calls "engineering" had to evolve by less efficient processes. that is Why Koonin -- who takes a similar stance -- emphasizes that most evolutionary inventions occurred in microbes and spread quickly by horizontal transfer. Unlike ID advocates, Shapiro invokes no external designer. He simply leaves unaddressed the origin of the mechanisms he describes.Petrushka
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, OK, let’s clear up the issue of whether Shapiro is a Darwinian or not, once and for all. What is the essence of Darwinism? According to you, it’s this: “heritable variation and natural selection together would result in adaptation.” So randomness doesn’t come into it, according to you. Fair enough; Darwin himself vacillated somewhat on this question, apparently.
"Randomness" is a word I try to avoid, as it has so many meanings.
Now let’s see what Adam S. Wilkins has to say about the difference between Shapiro’s definition of evolution and yours (which you claim to be the bare essence of Darwinism), in his review of Shapiro’s book, Evolution: a view from the 21st century. He writes:
My final disagreement with Jim [Shapiro]’s the dismissal of natural selection as a shaping force in evolution. Thus, it is stated, at the very start of the book (top of p. 1): “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change. Without variation and novelty, selection has nothing to act upon.” While all evolutionists would agree whole-heartedly with the second sentence, most would reject the first. The matter of selection is then virtually ignored until the final section of the book. There we read, as one of nine bullet-points that summarize the core message: “The role of selection is to eliminate evolutionary novelties that prove to be non-functional and interfere with adaptive needs. Selection operates as a purifying but not creative force [emphasis added].” (Bold emphases mine – VJT.)
Do you think Charles Darwin would have agreed with the statement: “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change”?
Yes, I think he would have disagreed with it, and so do I. I think that comment of Shapiro's is rather silly. The two concepts are not separable. Selection isn't something you "add" to variation to get evolution. To get evolution you need variance generation, and as long as that variance generation includes variance in reproductive success, then you have both. If it doesn't, then no amount of novelty is going to result in adaptatation. But of course Shapiro is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of the mechanisms (and the evolving of those mechanisms) of heritable variance generation in understanding evolutionary processes. What is silly, IMO, is apparently forgetting that heritable variance in reproductive success is all natural selection is.Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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The best way to adapt is to correctly predict the future. But, assuming that such prediction is not possible, the next best alternative is to maintain sufficient variation within the population, so that it is likely that some of the variants will survive and propagate whatever traits they have that aid their survival.
You are saying that living things cannot predict the future, and so they exercise foresight instead, having on hand what they will likely need. Predicting the future and foresight aren't exactly the same thing, but you're still attributing foresight to evolution. It's essentially the same thing as saying that a person can't predict the future, so he exercises foresight by saving money to be prepared for unexpected events. You're still describing an intelligent behavior, more intelligent even than some people.ScottAndrews2
January 31, 2012
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vjtorley:
Neil Rickert, you think Futuyma’s definition of random – i.e. that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be – is a defensible one.
I see it as good enough. One does not need a precise definition here. I look at evolution as a learning system. A population of organisms lives in a changing environment. The climate changes, the food sources change, the predators that threaten the population change. If the population is to survive, it must adapt to those ever-changing conditions. The best way to adapt is to correctly predict the future. But, assuming that such prediction is not possible, the next best alternative is to maintain sufficient variation within the population, so that it is likely that some of the variants will survive and propagate whatever traits they have that aid their survival. That is something like a Monte Carlo method, making good use of randomness. If changes at some locations on the genome usually have fatal effects, then it would not be useful to have a lot of variation at those locations. If changes at other locations have, in past generations, been particularly useful, then it would make sense to have more variation at those locations. So we wouldn't expect the amount of variation to be constant across the entire genome. It seems to me that a system would evolve toward producing the variation at locations in the genome where it has proved most useful in the past. It seems to me that what we see fits that kind of learning strategy very well.
I would agree that it is, if the notion of “fitness” or “usefulness” can be made rigorous. Talbott thinks it can’t.
That's where I think my view differs a little from that of traditional Darwinism. I want to define "niche" very narrowly, whereas it is usually taken fairly broadly. When I use a narrow definition of niche, then we have to see a population as occupying a range of niches, rather than a single niche. To give an example, some humans occupy the carpenter niche, some the banker niche, some the educator niche, etc. From that perspective, fitness would be fitness of a particular organism to a specific niche. What matters to the population as a whole is a kind of average fitness taken over the population for a range of niches. So fitness would be a function of niche and organism, and the average fitness would be a kind of integral of that fitness function over the entire population with respect to the range of niches that are occupied. That makes fitness a bit complex. In any case, from that way of looking at things, a population is best served by broadening its range of niches where possible, even if that results in a small reduction of average fitness. A population does not need to be optimal for its range of niches. Suboptimal is fine, as long as there is sufficient fitness that it can maintain the population size. The use of random mutation is a way for a population to attempt to broaden its range of niches. It can be thought of as a way of exploring niche space.Neil Rickert
January 31, 2012
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And the designing intelligence is one that works in many ways very like our own, with the minor difference (and it really is minor) that it has no future goals, it is entirely reactive, and does not simulate possible outcomes in order to choose the next path. It’s a feeler, not a seer – it has “tactile” intelligence rather than sighted intelligence, as someone recently posted (can’t remember who).
Except that as far as we know, evolution neither has nor can behave in any such manner. The capabilities of evolutionary processes are what they are and what they were yesterday. Calling them "intelligent" sheds no light on whether or not they did any such thing to merit that designation. That is precisely the question you are begging. It also seems rather circular to call such mechanisms "intelligent" because of the seemingly intelligent outputs attributed to them while asserting that they are capable of producing such results because of their intelligence. I'm sure you'll argue that it's not circular. But given the current lack of evidence that any evolutionary process (GAs included) can act with the intelligence attributed to them, that's exactly what it is.ScottAndrews2
January 31, 2012
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First, you told Petrushka...
I said nothing against empiricism and nothing in favor of mysterious interventions. You, like so many critics of ID, appear to have a reading comprehension problem, inferring positions that your debating partners are not advancing.
and then, to Elizabeth...
And of course, if you glance at the attacks from Dr Rec and Petrushka above, you will see that they, too, have imputed to me views that I have not advanced. That’s par for the course around here, so you perhaps shouldn’t be surprised that I thought you were doing the same thing.
In other words, ID critics aren't allowed to assume what one ID advocate implied based on what other ID advocates make explicit. But you're allowed to assume what one ID critic implied based on what other ID critics made explicit.lastyearon
January 31, 2012
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5.1.1.2: "I’m not accusing you of anything Timaeus," Actually, Elizabeth, you did implicitly accuse me of something. In a post addressed to me, and disputing some of my claims, you opened a paragraph with: "Neither Margulis nor Shapiro think that variation is generated by a designer." How else was I to take that remark, but as a statement of what you thought I believed about Margulis and Shapiro? My argument that Shapiro and Margulis each had a fundamental disagreement with Darwinian theory in no way implied that I thought that either of them believed in a designer. Hence my "indignation" when you seemed to impute that view to me. And of course, if you glance at the attacks from Dr Rec and Petrushka above, you will see that they, too, have imputed to me views that I have not advanced. That's par for the course around here, so you perhaps shouldn't be surprised that I thought you were doing the same thing. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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It’s a feeler, not a seer – it has “tactile” intelligence rather than sighted intelligence, as someone recently posted (can’t remember who).
I'll take the credit, but I doubt I'm the first to use the metaphor. For some reason the word "blind" suggested Braille and the way blind people examine things. Blind people are certainly intelligent, but their vision is limited to what is within reach. If they have to explore a space, they can do it, but not as quickly as a sighted person. For the same reason and in the same way, tactile evolution can explore the same space as a system with "foresight." It just takes longer and is more wasteful.Petrushka
January 31, 2012
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Thanks for the retraction, Elizabeth. It was not explicit before. Of course all evolutionary biologists owe *something* to Darwin. Newton owed a fair bit to Galileo, too, but his disagreements with Galileo, where they existed, were major. And Einstein owed something to Newton, but his disagreements, where they existed, were non-trivial. For that matter, Galileo owed something important to Aristotle, but his criticism of Aristotle was of central import for physical theory. Shapiro and Margulis are not merely updating or tweaking what is normally called "Darwinian" theory (a term which no one in the field limits to only the exact views held by Darwin); they are suggesting a major reorientation about how major novelties in form arise. When Margulis said that John Maynard Smith didn't understand evolution (!), she was throwing down a gauntlet, and if you grasp that, then any defensive quibbles about her saying "neo-Darwinian" rather than "Darwinian" seem quite silly. Smith and the other leaders of mainstream 20th-century biology conceived of themselves as faithful to the original insights of Darwin (while correcting his obvious factual errors), and hence as authentically "Darwinian." It's precisely the *inadequacy* of that "corrected but faithful" Darwinian position that Shapiro and Margulis and others are now criticizing. So no matter how you play around with the terms, the result is the same: Darwin's detailed science is hopelessly outdated, and the improved Darwinian evolutionary science of Smith, Mayr, Dobzhansky, etc. is the target of the critics I'm speaking of. If you are going to try to shoehorn Margulis and Shapiro into the "Darwinian" camp, then all that one can say is that "Darwinian" theory is extremely broad; indeed, if they fit into it, it would be hard to see any difference between Darwinian theory and evolutionary theory generally. But that is a ludicrous result, since the whole point of Darwinian theory was to provide a particular mechanism for evolution; it has to be distinguishable from non-Darwinian theories, e.g., Lamarck's, Denton's. If Darwinian theory is (as you seem to think) essentially nothing more than variation plus inheritable change, then every evolutionary theory is Darwinian. Once again I refer you to the Wilkins review of Shapiro, cited below. If the distinctions Wilkins makes do not convince you of the importance of the point I am making, I am sure that nothing further that I can say will do so. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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Sorry Elizabeth, That comment of mine didn't come out quite where I wanted it: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/its-all-about-information-professor-feser/comment-page-1/#comment-417909vjtorley
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Re whether or not Shapiro is Darwinian, please see my remarks above, at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/its-all-about-information-professor-feser/comment-page-1/#comment-417905 . In particular, I'd be interested to hear your answer to my question: Do you think Charles Darwin would have agreed with the statement: “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change”? That's what Shapiro wrote. By the way, I suggest you have a look at the talk by Rupert Sheldrake at http://vimeo.com/33479544 , which bornagain77 kindly linked to. It'll shatter your belief in materialism. Mind-blowing stuff.vjtorley
January 31, 2012
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Hi bornagain77 and Neil Rickert, I have to say, bornagain77, I was absolutely blown away by the talk given by Rupert Sheldrake on http://vimeo.com/33479544 . It's a must-see. Anyone who still thinks the mind is the brain after watching that video is defying the known facts. Neil Rickert, you think Futuyma's definition of random - i.e. that the chance that a specific mutation will occur is not affected by how useful that mutation would be - is a defensible one. I would agree that it is, if the notion of "fitness" or "usefulness" can be made rigorous. Talbott thinks it can't. After reading his article, I think he at least makes a case that needs to be answered. Regarding intelligent evolution, you claim that the notion of "biological systems redesigning themselves" is not a problematic one, and that no evidence of an external designer has been presented. Adam Wilkins, in his review of Shapiro's book, evidently disagreed with you. Commenting on Shapiro's claims that "Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change" and that "Selection operates as a purifying but not creative force", which tend to belittle the importance of natural selection in evolution, Wilkins writes:
The arguments from paleontological evidence for the importance of natural selection largely concern the observed long-term trends of morphological change, which are visible in many lineages. It is hard to imagine what else but natural selection could be responsible for such trends, unless one invokes supernatural or mystical forces such as the long-popular but ultimately discredited force of “orthogenesis"... Finally, with respect to this issue of selection, one might add that, in terms of Jim [Shapiro]’s particular thesis, it is hard to understand how cells could have the very capacities for “natural genetic engineering” attributed to them without those capacities having been evolved, in some manner and over long evolutionary spans, by natural selection. The evolution of such capabilities, favouring the process of “evolvability” (the capacity to give rise to new properties), is a fascinating subject, mentioned explicitly though only briefly in the book, and deserves more attention than it has traditionally received. Again, the only alternative for the origination of these capabilities, if one discards natural selection as the generative agent, is some supra-natural force, a position that I am certain is not being advocated here. (Bold emphases mine - VJT.)
In other words, Wilkins thinks "intelligent evolution" won't work, and that only an intelligent designer could make it work. True intelligence is far-sighted, looking to the distant future. That's how it achieves its spectacular results. But Shapiro's self-designing cells can't achieve those results - unless they're packed with information at the start (front-loaded) by an external Designer, who has a long-term aim in mind and who anticipates the obstacles that will occur in the process of reaching it. All that Shapiro's cells can look to is the immediate future; hence they're not really intelligent.vjtorley
January 31, 2012
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Petrushka, You are missing the point. Countless individuals, yourself included, have argued the obvious, inevitable creative ability of darwinian mechanisms. Now "mainstream science" is questioning them. This is not specifically about ID, which is what I suppose you are alluding to with 'mysterious interventions.' It is a clearer indication of what others have already admitted, that while many agree that some process of evolution is taking place, the mechanisms are pretty much up in the air. The implicit acknowledgement that the traditionally accepted mechanisms (you know, the ones they drum into students' heads) are inadequate at least as significant as the new ones tentatively proposed. You can pretend that doesn't validate what skeptics have been saying about RM+NS just about forever, but you'd be in denial. You're trying to turn the page on the fundamentals of evolution without admitting that those who questioned those fundamentals were right. No one likes to hear 'I told you so.' That much has nothing to do with ID, because many people have been pointing out that RM+NS is a vacuous explanation long before anyone formulated ID. (Many of them were children.) There is of course an ID implication. Acknowledging that we don't know what causes produced an effect undermines the unscientific rhetoric that rules out any intelligently designed mechanism. Unless, that is, evolution is defined as the nebulous theory of 'change over time by mechanisms that are unspecified except we know for darned sure they weren't intelligent.'ScottAndrews2
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, OK, let's clear up the issue of whether Shapiro is a Darwinian or not, once and for all. What is the essence of Darwinism? According to you, it's this: "heritable variation and natural selection together would result in adaptation." So randomness doesn't come into it, according to you. Fair enough; Darwin himself vacillated somewhat on this question, apparently. Now let's see what Adam S. Wilkins has to say about the difference between Shapiro's definition of evolution and yours (which you claim to be the bare essence of Darwinism), in his review of Shapiro's book, Evolution: a view from the 21st century. He writes:
My final disagreement with Jim [Shapiro]’s general argument concerns a truly fundamental point, however: the dismissal of natural selection as a shaping force in evolution. Thus, it is stated, at the very start of the book (top of p. 1): “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change. Without variation and novelty, selection has nothing to act upon.” While all evolutionists would agree whole-heartedly with the second sentence, most would reject the first. The matter of selection is then virtually ignored until the final section of the book. There we read, as one of nine bullet-points that summarize the core message: “The role of selection is to eliminate evolutionary novelties that prove to be non-functional and interfere with adaptive needs. Selection operates as a purifying but not creative force [emphasis added].” (Bold emphases mine - VJT.)
Do you think Charles Darwin would have agreed with the statement: "Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change"?vjtorley
January 31, 2012
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Petrushka (5.1.1.1.1): I said nothing against empiricism and nothing in favor of mysterious interventions. You, like so many critics of ID, appear to have a reading comprehension problem, inferring positions that your debating partners are not advancing. Your view that Shapiro and Margulis are merely extending Darwinian theory, rather than fundamentally challenging key aspects of it, shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter. Please read Shapiro's book, and then read the review I discussed immediately above. There will be a quiz. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, Thank you for your posts (1.1.2.1.10 and 1.1.2.1.11). You were quite right about one thing: the sort order is irrelevant to computations of Shannon complexity. Mea culpa. However, I believe you were mistaken when you wrote:
Shannon information doesn’t care what order the items are arranged in, it only cares how many ways there are of arranging the items.
This is fine if all arrangements are equiprobable. But what if they're not? In your case (Chesil beach), there is a natural biasing factor at work, causing the pebbles to be sorted in descending order of size. This means that a random sequence of pebbles would be far more surprising than a sequence of equal length, in which the size of the pebbles was in descending order. Hence it would contain more Shannon information. Likewise English text is considered to be fairly low in entropy because it is largely predictable: the only letters that can appear after "abl", for instance, are "a", "e", "i", "o", "u" and "y", and of these, "e" and "y" are by far the most common. Now compare Professor Dembski's card case with Chesil beach. The point is that the cards, unlike the beach, contain no built-in bias favoring lower values. Hence each possible arrangement of cards is equally improbable and thus contains the same amount of Shannon information. The probability of getting all spades in ascending order in a hand of 13 cards is extremely low; and the Kolmogorov compressibility of the sequence is high. That points to agency. On the other hand, the probability of getting sand grains sorted roughly by size on Chesil beach is not that low, given the causal factors at work. So the parallel breaks down. Another problem with your example is that your verbal description (which is supposed to roughly correspond to Kolmogorov complexity) doesn't specify any particular arrangement of pebbles. It merely describes a generic feature of that arrangement: namely, that the pebbles tend to descend in order of size. If you wanted to describe a particular sequence of pebbles, however, you would need quite a lot of space to do so, unless it were a sequence in which the pebbles along the beach descended in perfect order of size - which is extremely unlikely to be the case. If they did, I'd suspect intelligent agency was at work:) So Professor Dembski's point that high Kolmogorov complexity combined with high improbability is a hallmark of intelligent agency, remains a valid one. champignon: Thank you for your clarification regarding Kolmogorov complexity and algorithms. You are right, of course. The length of a verbal descriptions is language-dependent. Algorithms are a better way to go if you want an objective mathematical figure. Upon reflection, I agree that Tom Jones' DNA will be difficult to reproduce via an algorithm, because of the very large number of mutational steps from the first living cell to Tom Jones. However, it occurs to me that a point raised by mathematician Gregory Chaitin, in a talk I wrote a post about recently, is of relevance here. The key point relates to three ways of obtaining the Busy Beaver (BB) function of a given number N: Exhaustive search reaches fitness BB(N) in time 2^N. Intelligent Design reaches fitness BB(N) in time N. (That’s the fastest possible regime.) Random evolution reaches fitness BB(N) in time between N^2 and N^3. Chaitin added:
But I told a friend of mine ... about this result. He doesn’t like Darwinian evolution, and he told me, “Well, you can look at this the other way if you want. This is actually much too slow to justify Darwinian evolution on planet Earth. And if you think about it, he’s right... If you make an estimate, the human genome is something on the order of a gigabyte of bits. So it’s ... let’s say a billion bits – actually 6 x 10^9 bits, I think it is, roughly – ... so we’re looking at programs up to about that size [here he pointed to N^2 on the slide] in bits, and N is about of the order of a billion, 10^9, and the time, he said … that’s a very big number, and you would need this to be linear, for this to have happened on planet Earth, because if you take something of the order of 10^9 and you square it or you cube it, well ... forget it. There isn’t enough time in the history of the Earth ... Even though it’s fast theoretically, it’s too slow to work. He said, “You really need something more or less linear.” And he has a point....
So there we are. Something of the order of 10^9 looks like the answer to your question.vjtorley
January 31, 2012
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I'm not accusing you of anything Timaeus, please stop regarding my posts as imperious pronouncements and corrections! That's kairosfocus's job ;) And I did, in fact, retract my claim about Shapiro, and fully accept that he did, in fact, characterise the view he rejects as "Darwinian. I will happily retract it again. He seems to call himself an "evolutionist". Margulis, on the other hand differentiated between "Darwinian" and "neo-Darwinian" and accepted the former label. As I said, I don't mind what labels people use, as long as it's clear, and I am happy to clarify my own use.
Shapiro and Margulis both have very serious disagreements with what is broadly called “Darwinian” theory by most evolutionary biologists.
Well, we can disagree about what "Most evolutionary biologists" call "Darwinian", but there's no point: let's see what they disagree with:
YNo, they are *not* just adding one or two new mechanisms to the repertoire of evolutionary mechanisms. They are saying that the mainstream of 20th-century evolutionary biology was *wrong* in what it took to be the main driving force of evolution.
Well, I would agree, as would most modern biologists, that in the early days there was too much emphasis on selection, none on drift, and not enough on the mechanisms of variance generation, nor on population-level selection (selection of populations). That has radically changed. Most people don't call themselves "non-Darwinian" as a result; for some reason Shapiro does.
You can disagree with their criticisms of mainstream evolutionary thought if you like, but don’t try to make out that they don’t have these criticisms, and don’t try to make out that they aren’t major criticisms.
I don't disagree with their criticisms; I don't make out they don't have them; however I do not think they are major criticisms of Darwin's original theory of heritable variance in reproductive success as the mechanism of adaptation of populations to their environment. What they have both done, of course, is something that Darwin didn't not even attempt to do, which is to work on the mechanisms of variance generation.
If either Margulis or Shapiro is right, then the picture of evolution most commonly held by educated lay people — the one promoted (in various ways) by Mayr, Simpson, Dobzhansky, Dawkins, Miller, Scott, Gould, and others — is seriously misleading.
I don't think so, although clearly several of those (including Dawkins I might say) are out of date. For me, one of the biggest breakthroughs in evolutionary science in recent times has been the domain of "evo-devo", again in the area of variance generation. But no "Darwinist" could ever claim that natural selection alone can result in adaptive evolution (it would be a koan anyway - you can't have selection without a range to select from) any more than any "Darwinist" could claim that variance alone can result in adaptive evolution (and impossible anyway, given that we know that some variants are incompatible with life). So while there might have been changes of emphasis over the years, I don't see that Shapiro is offering anything not implicit in what has gone before.
And Margulis explicitly says — in the reference which I gave you and you apparently ignored — that the ID people are *right* in their criticism of the conventional picture.
And I have often made the same point myself. In fact my very first post at UD made precisely that point: rhat the identification of patterns in biology do indicate that something rather special and design-y is going on. And what I like about both Margulis and Shapiro (especially Shapiro) is that he regards evolutionary processes as an intelligent system. So do I. I work with intelligent systems, and my job is trying to find out how they work. Saying that biological organisms aren't "intelligently" designed, in one sense, is clearly wrong. They are. And the designing intelligence is one that works in many ways very like our own, with the minor difference (and it really is minor) that it has no future goals, it is entirely reactive, and does not simulate possible outcomes in order to choose the next path. It's a feeler, not a seer - it has "tactile" intelligence rather than sighted intelligence, as someone recently posted (can't remember who).
As I said before, Elizabeth, you can use words any way you want. But when you use words that obscure the situation, that mask important theoretical differences, your usage is bad.
Obviously I don't want to mask important theoretical differences, but I do want to point out where those are absent. And I will use language to the best of my ability to make my points. If I am unclear, please just ask. I am always willing to clarify.
I think you should fall into line with the usage I’ve already explained to you at great length, the usage common to Shapiro, Coyne, Dawkins, Mayr, Simpson, Behe, Dembski, etc. Otherwise you simply obstruct the conversation rather than contribute to it. I don’t expect you to listen to this advice, but there it is.
Well, I'll listen, but as I dsipute the premise that all these people use the same terms in the same way, no, I won't take it, because I can't. However, I will try to make it clearer in future precisely what I mean by a term in any usage of it. PS: searching for my retraction I see that it was implicit in this post: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/its-all-about-information-professor-feser/comment-page-1/#comment-417678 taken in subsequent context, but not explicit. I unreservedly retract any claim I made that implied that Shapiro did not reject the description "Darwinian". It seems he did. My view is that that's a little unfair on Darwin, but he's entitled to his idiolect :) In my view, Shapiro view of evolution owes one heck of a lot to Darwin.Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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For those interested in an interpretation of Shapiro's thought by someone who knows Shapiro personally and is also well-versed in the field, I would recommend the book review by Adam Wilkins here: http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/01/24/gbe.evs008.full.pdf+html Wilkins disagrees with some of Shapiro's major points, but he confirms my analysis of where Shapiro departs in crucial ways from the mainstream of 20th-century evolutionary theory (which Wilkins characterizes as "Darwinian," p. 2). Wilkins does not soft-pedal the differences, because he knows they are important. And at the end of the review, he notes that there is a swelling chorus of voices against the mainstream. And he there vindicates my perception that the population geneticists are frequently the "old guard" and those coming in from other angles (including molecular biology) are often the challengers. I've said that here before. It's heartening for me to know that an evolutionary biologist who disagrees with me about the causes of evolution agrees that I have the right perception -- the same perception as the trained professionals -- of what the debate is about. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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And you are ignoring the fact that both of these "criticisms" of "Darwinism" are well within the mainstream of empiricism. They present testable conjectures that do not assume any mysterious interventions. Since they involve knowledge beyond what was available to Darwin, they cannot be anti-Darwinian. At most they are extensions of theory. At worst they are simply wrong. The fact that they can potentially be demonstrated right or wrong places them within the mainstream.Petrushka
January 31, 2012
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Elizabeth: I never said at any point that Margulis or Shapiro thought that variation is generated by a designer. Why don't you listen to what I say, instead of projecting? Did you even read my reply to Dr. Rec above, before you reacted to it? Can you not see where I denied the belief you are now alleging? Is this how carefully you read Darwin, Margulis, Behe, Dembski, etc.? Margulis's view was that massive recombinations of genomes were a much more important driver of major evolutionary change than what are normally called "mutations" by conventional evolutionary biologists. If you had read the articles I linked you to on another thread, you would know that. Elizabeth, you say you are asking for clarity about people's definitions, but you are one of the main producers of non-clarity here. You have been ferociously arguing that Shapiro and Margulis are perfectly "Darwinian." This creates endless confusion. Shapiro and Margulis both have very serious disagreements with what is broadly called "Darwinian" theory by most evolutionary biologists. Your attempt to include them as "Darwinian" obscures that. You are trying to downplay the differences that they are very clearly and loudly trying to emphasize. No, they are *not* just adding one or two new mechanisms to the repertoire of evolutionary mechanisms. They are saying that the mainstream of 20th-century evolutionary biology was *wrong* in what it took to be the main driving force of evolution. You can disagree with their criticisms of mainstream evolutionary thought if you like, but don't try to make out that they don't have these criticisms, and don't try to make out that they aren't major criticisms. If either Margulis or Shapiro is right, then the picture of evolution most commonly held by educated lay people -- the one promoted (in various ways) by Mayr, Simpson, Dobzhansky, Dawkins, Miller, Scott, Gould, and others -- is seriously misleading. And Margulis explicitly says -- in the reference which I gave you and you apparently ignored -- that the ID people are *right* in their criticism of the conventional picture. As I said before, Elizabeth, you can use words any way you want. But when you use words that obscure the situation, that mask important theoretical differences, your usage is bad. I think you should fall into line with the usage I've already explained to you at great length, the usage common to Shapiro, Coyne, Dawkins, Mayr, Simpson, Behe, Dembski, etc. Otherwise you simply obstruct the conversation rather than contribute to it. I don't expect you to listen to this advice, but there it is. And it would be nice if you would admit error on specific points, e.g., you said that Shapiro criticizes only "neo-Darwinism" and not just "Darwinian" theory. I gave you an explicit quotation above to the contrary. The proper answer, Elizabeth, is "I was wrong, and retract my assertion about Shapiro's view." See if you can choke those words out of your throat. It would look good on you. T.Timaeus
January 31, 2012
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And to be fair Mr. Rickert to the scientific method, here is an example of mind bringing a machine into existence;
Game on! A bioinformatician confronts Intelligent Design - VJT - January 2012 Excerpt: The moment one constructs a device to carry into practise a crude idea he finds himself unavoidably engrossed with the details and defects of the apparatus. As he goes on improving and reconstructing, his force of concentration diminishes and he loses sight of the great underlying principle. Results may be obtained but always at the sacrifice of quality. My method is different. I do not rush into actual work. When I get an idea I start at once building it up in my imagination. I change the construction, make improvements and operate the device in my mind. It is absolutely immaterial to me whether I run my turbine in thought or test it in my shop. I even note if it is out of balance. There is no difference whatever, the results are the same. In this way I am able to rapidly develop and perfect a conception without touching anything. When I have gone so far as to embody in the invention every possible improvement I can think of and see no fault anywhere, I put into concrete form this final product of my brain. Invariably my device works as I conceived that it should, and the experiment comes out exactly as I planned it. In twenty years there has not been a single exception. Why should it be otherwise? Engineering, electrical and mechanical, is positive in results. There is scarcely a subject that cannot be mathematically treated and the effects calculated or the results determined beforehand from the available theoretical and practical data. The carrying out into practise of a crude idea as is being generally done is, I hold, nothing but a waste of energy, money and time. - Nikola Tesla https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/game-on-a-bioinformatician-confronts-intelligent-design/
Further notes:
The Mind Is Not The Brain - Scientific Evidence - Rupert Sheldrake - video (with Referenced Notes) http://vimeo.com/33479544
Moreover, the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html "Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am.' My bet is that God replied, 'I am, therefore think.'" Art Battson - Access Research Group Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998
Verse and Poem set to Music:
Acts 17:28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' There Is More - Poem - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102086/
bornagain77
January 31, 2012
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Okie Dokie Mr. Rickert, please show me just one example of any of the molecular machines I listed being designed from scratch by any population of cells? Shoot, I'll give you the whole universe, please show me ANYWHERE in the universe that any machine has come about without a mind bringing it into existence.bornagain77
January 31, 2012
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If "Darwinism" means "what Darwin said" then every single biologist in the world rejects Darwin. Of course there is disagreement among evolutionary biologists. If there weren't, we would have made no progress over the last 150 years, and the progress has been extraordinary. But the basic idea of heritable variation and natural selection that Darwin proposed as the mechanism of adaptation still lies at the heart of evolutionary theory. What Shapiro and Margulis have done (and many others) is delve into the origins of heritable variation, something about which Darwin had no idea (at one point he favored some kind of Lamarckian scenario). So to say that Shapiro and Margulis, whatever they call themselves (and Margulis called herself a Darwinian) are opposed to this aspect of Darwinian theory is simply wrong. They do "still think of ...mutations being filtered by natural selection as the primary motor of evolution" (well Margulis until her death). The word random (which I replaced by ellipses above) wasn't actually used by Darwin, and, as I keep saying, means very little, or rather too much. Neither Margulis nor Shapiro think that variation is generated by a designer. If "random" means "not generated by a designer" then Margulis and Shapiro sign up to your statement. If it means "drawn from a flat distribution" or "drawn from a distribution that itself did not evolve" then they don't. And nor do I, and nor, I suggest does any living biologist. Nor anyone who got as far as meiosis in high school biology.Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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You can use Darwinian any way you like as long as you make it clear what you mean. I spent ages trying to establish what various people meant by "neo Darwinian" and gave up. I quoted Margulis as saying she was a a Darwinian but not a neo-Darwinian, and normally use those words now in the sense in which she gave. If Shapiro says he is not a "Darwinian" but nonetheless an "evolutionist" then he is not using the word in the same sense as Margulis. Whatever. If Shapiro is not a Darwinian, nor am I. Definitions are descriptive, not prescriptive. What is not on, however, is to define the word in one sense, then argue against it in another. That is "equivocation". If "Darwinism" is being defeated, and what is meant by "Darwinism" is some aspect of evolutionary theory that Darwin didn't consider, or argued against, or argued for (Lamarckism, for instance) then, sure, it's being defeated. It seems a little unfair on Darwin, though, whose basic insight (and that of Wallace) that heritable variation and natural selection together would result in adaptation is what a great many people think of as "Darwinian". It's the basis of evolutionary algorithms, and underpins evolutionary biology, including the work of Shapiro and Margulis. Give it another name if you like, but it's in no danger of defeat. And when campaigning against the alleged evils of "Darwinism" be sure to say what you mean. Timaeus, you seem to have this bizarre view that I am trying to wield "authority" here, despite the fact that I have repeated disavowed any such claim or intentions. I don't care how people use words as long as they are clear what they mean. And if Shapiro uses the word Darwinian in a different sense to the way I do (and, I'd argue, the way most people do) that is absolutely fine, and I retract my claim that he is a "Darwinian" in his sense of the word. The reason I fuss about definitions is to avoid equivocation, not to lay down the law about how words should be used. That's why I often ask for operational definitions, for instance, of the word "random" which is used in all kinds of sense here, from "equiprobable" to "non-intentional" to "drawn from a probability distribution" to "stochastic". I don't care which, as long as it's clear.Elizabeth Liddle
January 31, 2012
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Dr Rec: Where, on any thread on this site, have I ever said that because there have been post-Darwinian discoveries in evolutionary biology, therefore ID is true? You won't find any such argument from me. Where have I said that Margulis or Shapiro support ID? You'll never find such statements from me. Unlike some people who post here, I read texts carefully before I report on the views on their authors. What I have said is that Elizabeth should stop using language which (intentionally or not) obscures just how much disagreement there is between some of the leading evolutionary biologists of the past few years and the standard Darwinian view of evolutionary mechanism. The fact is that the general educated public, the sort of middle-class people who watch NOVA science specials and read National Geographic and teach high school and edit mainstream magazines and newspapers and run public TV networks and practice dentistry and law and proctology, still think of random mutations being filtered by natural selection as the primary motor of evolution. But if people like Shapiro, Margulis, Newman, etc., are right, this picture of evolution is wrong. And that means the experts, the consensus, whatever you want to call it, may have been wrong. It's very important for the public to see that the experts can be wrong. And it's very important for the public to realize that the ideal portrait of science -- this body of people in white coats with scrupulous integrity who always sacrifice their egos and their career ambitions to the evidence and the truth -- is mythological. Scientists are just as prone to defend set ideas as anyone else, and sometimes more so, if the incentives (grant money, tenure, hiring, etc.) favor the status quo. The public has to be aware that scientists (like all academics) can be quite political, quite manipulative, and quite unfair to challengers to their beliefs. Given a choice between a public that accepts ID, but accepts it uncritically, and a public which rejects ID, but also rejects Darwinism because it has a critical mind and doesn't kowtow to authority, I would far rather have the latter. I don't want ID as a conclusion pushed in the schools; I want the views of Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne and Richard Lewontin and Ernst Mayr taught much more in the schools, and analyzed and criticized in tiny detail in the schools, so that students can see just how shaky those views are. And anything that helps that process along -- such as learning a little about the criticisms of people like Shapiro and Margulis and Newman -- should be welcomed. I want students to have a shot at wrestling with competing arguments and practising arriving at the truth on their own, as opposed to being indocrinated in what the leading evolutionary biologists believed 40 years ago and what the mediocre evolutionary biologists still believe now. T.Timaeus
January 30, 2012
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And Mr. Rickert, exactly how is this ‘self design’ accomplished? Do you have any evidence of even one molecular machine being ‘self designed’ by the ‘intelligence’ within the cell?
It won't be design by the cell. It will be design by the population, using random variation and natural selection keep the population well adapted.Neil Rickert
January 30, 2012
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Elizabeth (2.1.1.1.5): You quote a paragraph from Shapiro, and in your discussion of it inform us that Shapiro considers himself "an evolutionist." That is supposed to be news to us? Please, we are not in kindergarten. Or is your point that he doesn't use the language of Darwinism and non-Darwinism, but only the language of "evolutionism"? Well, I've already demonstrated that to be untrue. He uses all of these terms. Newsflash: When he speaks in your quoted paragraph of "conventional evolutionary theory" and "19th and 20th century evolutionists" he is speaking of Darwinians and neo-Darwinians, as his language elsewhere makes clear. So if you want to interpret Shapiro in terms of his own vocabulary and intentions, instead of imposing your own vocabulary and intentions upon him, you will call him a non-Darwinian evolutionist. Or, if you are so sure of yourself as to say that Shapiro has misunderstood what "Darwinian" means, at the very least, you should say that he is an evolutionist who understands himself to be non-Darwinian. Note that Shapiro does not, in the paragraph you quote, call evolutionary processes "an intelligent system." He says: "evolution by natural genetic engineering has the capacity to generate complex novelties." The words "intelligent system" is your gloss upon his words. He might agree with your gloss, or he might not; it's certainly not obviously there in what he said. If you specify a certain definition of "intelligent" you might be able to squeeze it out of his words there; but there's no evidence what I've read of him that he thinks there is any "intelligence" (as the word is normally used) operating in the evolutionary process. Certainly he thinks that it can mimic the results typically achieved only by intelligent agents. If that's all you mean, there is no argument, but all evolutionary theorists say that, so it's nothing specific to Shapiro, and is a platitude. Again, only obscurity results from playing with the normal meaning of words. To the average educated reader, "intelligence" is associated with consciousness or mind; and you certainly don't think that any consciousness or mind is directing evolution, either from the outside or the inside, so your language makes your argument murky. Whether you just don't see that it makes your argument murky, or whether you are trying to playfully test us, to see whether we will detect the ambiguity you are relying upon, or fall prey to it, I don't know, because I have no conception of your motives. But the effect of your usage of the notion of "intelligent systems" is to create confusion and non-communication, rather than to produce clarity and a sharper picture of where you disagree and agree with ID. And by the way, I know of no ID proponent who is saying that Shapiro should be taught in biology class as refuting "evolution." Again, if you would follow our terminology, no such confusion on your part would arise. Shapiro, as a non-Darwinian evolutionist, is valuable because hearing about him would inform ninth-grade American students that the "consensus science" of the 20th century (which Eugenie Scott and the NCSE still want taught in the 21st) may be seriously flawed, because evolution may take place in a way that is *significantly different* from what was previously thought. It would be very good for young, impressionable 14-year-olds to be made aware that loud shouting about the immense creative capacity of random mutations plus natural selection does not make that crude model of evolution true, and that empirical investigations are now suggesting that it may have to be seriously modified. Anything that weans students off the worship of consensus and majority is good for their scientific education -- and their general education. T.Timaeus
January 30, 2012
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"It’s useless arguing with Elizabeth about vocabulary. She has her mind made up what “Darwinian” means, and she is not going to budge." Well, what does "Darwinian" mean? In a historical sense, genes aren't Darwinian. Neither is chromatin (1910). Transposons later (1960), HGT later, endosymbiosis, etc etc... The question you've got to be asking is whether the authors and quotes you've fallen in love with support ID or evolutionary biology. Saying something discovered recently is post-Darwinian is a hilarious given, in a historical sense. Taking that as support for ID is just terribly sad.DrREC
January 30, 2012
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