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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Virgil, in the other thread, the Zachs said:
In the case of many adaptations, we can show they are random with respect to fitness.
Inconsistency should be his...their middle name.Vy
October 26, 2015
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Zachriel:
While mutations are random with respect to fitness, evolutionary adaptation is not random by any means.
That is incorrect. Any output that relies on random inputs will be, by definition, random in some sense of the word.Virgil Cain
October 26, 2015
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Vy: "The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random" Vy: "Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity — it is mindless and mechanistic. It has no goals; it’s not striving to produce “progress” or a balanced ecosystem." Agreed. Vy: I do find it funny though that Zach put in so much effort in another thread to “prove” to me that adaptation (what he twists into “evolution”) and trial and error mutations were random only to come in here and start singing a different tune. That is incorrect. While mutations are random with respect to fitness, evolutionary adaptation is not random by any means. ETA: Furthermore, adaptation is a subset of evolution.Zachriel
October 26, 2015
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Larry Moran @94
@91: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are formed, at least one case?
Yes.
Larry Moran @181
@110: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case?
I’m going to answer “no” because of the word “exactly” which I interpret to be demanding an extremely detailed molecular account of every bit of the interaction between a morphogen and the control of gene expression in the cell that interprets the morphogen.
Ok, before we move to the next item, would you like to review your answer (@94) to the first question (@91), in light of the valid reasons you presented when answering (@181) the second question (@110)? Thank you.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
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Larry Moran @181
@110: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case?
I’m going to answer “no” because of the word “exactly” which I interpret to be demanding an extremely detailed molecular account of every bit of the interaction between a morphogen and the control of gene expression in the cell that interprets the morphogen.
Ok, that's a valid reason. Thank you for answering the second question.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
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Larry Moran @181
Now let’s see what follows when you’ve seen my response … I’m predicting that you are not going to respect my honesty. I predict that because I can’t give you a simple “yes” or “no” answer to a loaded question that you are going to try and turn this into a victory for intelligent design and a defeat for an evolutionary biologist.
Have you ever tried to predict the weather? :) Can you predict earthquakes too? What do you base the above quoted predictions on? The visible constellations in the firmament? The relative position of Mars and Venus on a clear night sky? Or do you use cards? Also, after reading the last sentence quoted above, I would like to ask if you have ever considered writing books within the fiction genre? You seem to have a prolific imagination. All my above comments were provoked by your message. Please, can we stick to the subject of discussion without unnecessary "off topic" digressions? Can we simply have a polite constructive discussion? It seems like our discussion topic is related to the most recent scientific research in biology, which you should represent better, given your highly recognized academic credentials. It humbles me to realize that a "nobody" like me can have a serious conversation with a distinguished university professor. I really appreciate it. Thank you for agreeing to our exchange of information, which in this case, due to the enormously disproportionate difference of scientific knowledge and experience to your favor, could be mostly a "one way" flow. I look forward, with increasing anticipation, to learning from our polite chatting.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
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LM, re, 161:
you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer
I will note the loaded language implicit in "the crowd" and the like language on your part, pointing to the preliminary remark in 115 above on polarisation and why this needs to stop given that innocent blood is there crying up from the ground in Umpqua. Further, kindly observe 115 ff above and again pointed to at 182 regarding outlining the evidence for intelligent design that you wish to sweep away with a blanket, hyperskeptical, loaded language dismissal: "you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design." Such is false, patently false, is offered in disregard to truth and is presented in hopes of profiting from it being perceived as though it were true. Where, for years you have run a blog that attacks design thought in similar terms, in insistent denial of corrective information on the point. This means, at minimum, it is -- pardon directness, it is necessary to say A is A -- a lie by failure to do basic due diligence on easily ascertainable fact. Had you said, you reject or disagree with evidence offered, on whatever basis, that would be a different thing. But instead, you asserted refusal on our part to present ANY evidence. That is untruth. I suggest, that you need to reconsider what you have been doing, in light of the issues pointed out in say 182 and 115 ff above. Now, in fact, there are trillions of cases of FSCO/I all around us and something so simple as the cause of the FSCO/I in the text of your own comments highlights the ONLY actually observed cause, intelligently directed configuration. That, sir, is a trillion member body of readily accessible highly relevant evidence, and to my certain knowledge it has been repeatedly presented here at UD, repeatedly and prominently. Per vera causa as championed by Newton and acknowledged by Lyell and Darwin, design is therefore the best current, observationally warranted causal explanation for FSCO/I. To overturn that, you need to show per observation, how blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, without intelligent direction of configuration, can and do give rise to FSCO/I beyond the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold. Further to this, the vNkSR evidently at work in cellular self-replication (foundational to reproduction, thus to any discussion of differential reproductive success) needs to be grounded on thermodynamically plausible spontaneous physics and chemistry at OOL, in order for the whole chance/non foresighted variation and culling out by differential reproductive success explanatory narrative to have a basis. As Paley pointed out c 1802 - 4, through the thought exercise of a self-replicating watch, and as has been evident since von Neuman's work on self replicating machines c 1948 on, this implies a huge increment of FSCO/I. Likewise to account for OOBPs dozens of times including our own, increments of 10 - 100+ mn bits of FSCO/I would have to be accounted for. Just in our case -- for the sake of argument -- on we are 2% different from chimps, 60 mn bases (120 mn bits) would have to be accounted for in 6 - 10 Mn y, in ways that account for major anatomical differences, for verbal language, for speech, and more, in incremental ways that are population-wise and mut rate wise plausible. Mission impossible, I suggest. In light of only observed actual cause and the blind watchmaker search, needle in haystack challenge in beyond astronomical configuration spaces, it is very reasonable to hold FSCO/I as a strong sign of intelligently directed configuration. Thus also, as strong indication of the action of designer(s), acting intelligence(s). For, it is equally patent that intelligently directed configuration is a marker of the action of designing intelligence. So, either your objection that we have offered no evidence of a designer folds into the point that FSCO/I is a strong sign of design, or else you are making a selectively hyperskeptical demand. Namely, you imply that -- knowing that on origins science, we deal with a remote past of origins that we cannot directly observe -- you demand "scientific" direct inspection of a designer. Sorry, this is a violation of reasonableness. Secondly, it points to the issue of the question-begging redefinition of science to fit with a priori evolutionary materialist ideology. The answer is, that FSCO/I is a strong sign of design, per vera causa anchored inference to best current, observationally and analytically grounded inductive explanation. To overturn this, what is needed is what has not been forthcoming for 150 - 200 years (bringing in Paley's self-replicating watch), actual observational evidence that grounds the reasonable conclusion that FSCO/I of at least 500 - 1,000 bits not only results from intelligently directed configuration, but also from blind watchmaker needle in haystack search by means of chance and mechanical necessity without intelligent direction. In that context, we have a direct positive induction on a trillion member observational base: FSCO/I is seen to result from design. We have the further induction, that it has only been observed to come from design, and this is backed up by the needle in haystack search challenge to hit on shores of islands of function. Where also, the constraint of multiple well matched, correctly arranged parts to achieve function shows why specific, configuration based function sharply confines successful configs to islands in the space of possibilities. Thence, on comparative difficulties and merits of alternatives, we may freely infer that the best explanation to date (and in prospect) for FSCO/I in the world of life and elsewhere, is design. And, that is a conclusion that stands on a trillion member publicly and readily accessible body of evidence. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2015
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Prof Moran
Meanwhile, you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer.
1. The DNA Code 2. The DNA Integrity Check systems (evolutionary conserved) 3. The DNA Repair Mechanisms (evolutionary conserved) 4. The DNA Apoptosis mechanisms (evolutionary conserved) 5. The DNA Necrotic System. (evolutionary conserved) Can you show how any material processes generated this?Andre
October 25, 2015
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Professor Moran There's something you wrote to me in your comments posted at 161 that I don't understand well: "They are not simple questions. It would take me several days to gather up all the references and write something about Drosophila development that a non-scientist could understand. I haven’t taught this stuff since 1990. Besides, I’m absolutely convinced than no answer would satisfy the crowd on this blog. Every time I try to explain something they just ask more questions. It’s neverending. Meanwhile, you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer." In the second quoted paragraph you referred to "they" and I understood that as referring to "the crowd on this blog". Is that correct? However, in the following (third quoted) paragraph, you referred to "you guys", which seems to include me too? Are you placing me in the same category with "the crowd on this blog"? Please, can you clarify this for me? Thank you.DTZ
October 25, 2015
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Professor Moran I'm very glad to see you did not stop answering the questions posted by Dionisio. Thank you.DTZ
October 25, 2015
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Folks, If it were not so sadly revealing of the rhetoric games as usual tactic, it would be amusing to see the studious ignoring of the pivotal issues in 115 ff above. We must beware the "buried in the onward comments" tactic. Let me particularly highlight the warning on logic and controlling assumptions by one of those "non-scientists" LM et al decry, Philip Johnson; particularly noting that he was answering to Lewontin, and also noting the utterly revealing remark from Rational Wiki:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the latter is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
With that sort of controlling assumption at work, in violation of the vera causa principle, we are dealing with the ideological captivity of origins science driven by question-begging, worldview level assumptions that close minds, journals, conferences, institutions, textbooks and faculties to reason and evidence. It remains the case that FSCO/I has but one actually observed adequate cause, intelligently directed configuration. It remains the case that if science is not free to follow the evidence in pursuit of empirically -- observationally -- grounded, freely and logically reasoned to truth about our world, it is reduced to propaganda in service to a worldview and cultural agenda. It remains the truth that science education under such captivity patently reduces to little more than force-feeding our children with atheistical agit-prop dressed up in a lab coat to the detriment of reason, responsibility and the foundations of freedom. It remains the case that the root of the Darwinist tree of life, origin of cell based life, requires an explanation on observationally anchored, thermodynamically reasonable chemistry and physics that accounts for metabolism, smart gated encapsulation, genetic code and vNkSR based self replication, all of which are chock full of FSCO/I, and many facets of which are arguably irreducibly complex. That is, requiring clusters of key well-matched parts, each of which is necessary for and together in proper arrangement achieving, core function. The only vera causa- grounded adequate, observed cause for such FSCO/I is design, and design is -- absent the ideological lockout -- the best current, empirically grounded causal explanation of OOL. Thus, the design inference -- absent the ideological lockout -- sits as of right (not, grudging sufferance) at the table of serious candidate explanations for the world of life from its root up. (A point BTW, that would sit well with the co-founder of evolutionary theory, Wallace.) In that context, the dozens of main body plans, linked integrated systems, organs, tissues and cell types required to account for the branching pattern of the tree of life from the Cambrian fossil revolution (on the table since Darwin, who hoped future fossil discoveries would lay it to rest, but even more on the table today cf Meyer's Darwin's Doubt) up to our own case, poses the FSCO/I challenge with redoubled force. As in, 10 - 100+ million bits of FSCO/I to account for the new body plans each, in a context where anything beyond 500 - 1,000 bits poses a hopeless needle in haystack, isolated islands of function challenge to the proud Darwinist edifice. In this sort of situation, until the underlying prejudice, question-begging and ideology are set aside (and the personalities before that), no reasonable discussion is there to be had. So, the futile circles of discussion on this or that topic that routinely play out have a foundation, an ideological problem. Hence, BTW, the now three years standing UD pro-darwinism essay challenge, not seriously answered to date. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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Dionisio says, Please, reconsider your decision and come back to this serious discussion, which was going well, according to your own terms, one question at a time, as per your own request. Okay. Let's continue. The question was ... Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case? I'm going to answer "no" because of the word "exactly" which I interpret to be demanding an extremely detailed molecular account of every bit of the interaction between a morphogen and the control of gene expression in the cell that interprets the morphogen. Now let's see what follows when you've seen my response ... That’s fine, but do you know how to answer simple yes/no questions? Apparently you don’t. At least that’s the impression one gets by looking at your embarrassing failure to answer my latest yes/no question. Do you have any idea what the word ‘humility’ means? I'm predicting that you are not going to respect my honesty. I predict that because I can't give you a simple "yes" or "no" answer to a loaded question that you are going to try and turn this into a victory for intelligent design and a defeat for an evolutionary biologist.Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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LOLMapou
October 25, 2015
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Hush my little puffer fish Don't you cry Your momma's going to sing you a lullaby. :razz:Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Oh koochy-koo my little puffer fish! Now, now don't get all upset just because you are a deluded and ignorant troll.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Joe Virgil Gallien Cain. That Uncommon Descent would continue to host you, while banning intelligent posters is telling. Keep ranting. Please. Keep making discussions here juvenile. You're the ID poster boy!Daniel King
October 25, 2015
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Come on, Danielle- show us your personal evolutionary history by holding your breath and making like a puffer fish. :razz: A puffer fish with a little pin head. What a sight!Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Yes, please do witness Danielle King's meltdown. It is quite the thing to behold. Soon she will be holding her breath and stomping her feet.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Witness a meltdown by an IDiot.Daniel King
October 25, 2015
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daniel dork can't find one thing that I have ever posted that runs contrary to what Darwin said or what the modern synthesis said. Life is good...Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Daniel you are the spewer here. Loser. OK, what did darwin say? darwin said that natural selection could produce the appearance of design without the need for a designer. He posited slight successive modifications led to the diversity of life. Chance modifications that were scrutinized by nature. Enter genetics. The modern synthesis had its mechanism of heredity. However it came out before the structure of DNA was elucidated and the genetic code was still unknown. natural selection was still the only proposed mechanism that could explain the appearance of design.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Can't support your spewings, Doofus. As always.Daniel King
October 25, 2015
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Tell you what daniel- link to the theory of evolution or else admit that you are a phony and a coward.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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LoL! The phony and a coward trying to project its cowardice onto me.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Virgil/Joe: Your test is in front of your eyes. And you would respond to it right here, right now, if you weren't a phony and a coward.Daniel King
October 25, 2015
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OK Daniel, we can meet and you can test me.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Virgil Joe Caine:
I am familiar with what Darwin said.
Prove it.
I am familiar with what the architects of the modern synthesis said. Neither of those is a scientific theory.
Can you back that up?Daniel King
October 25, 2015
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Larry Moran @146
I know how you guys operate.
That's fine, but do you know how to answer simple yes/no questions? Apparently you don't. At least that's the impression one gets by looking at your embarrassing failure to answer my latest yes/no question. Do you have any idea what the word 'humility' means?Dionisio
October 25, 2015
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Larry Moran:
Does that mean you are unfamiliar with modern evolutionary theory and need someone to explain it to you?
No, that means there isn't any such thing as a "modern evolutionary theory". I am familiar with what Darwin said. I am familiar with what the architects of the modern synthesis said. Neither of those is a scientific theory. Look, if you can't link to it then why do you think it exists?Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Larry Moran @146
Dionisio says,
Here’s the next Yes/No question: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case?
Hmmm … that’s the end of this discussion because I can’t answer “yes” or “no” to such a question. If I answer “yes” because I have a pretty good idea how morphogen gradients are interpreted by cells then you will pounce on the word “exactly” and keep dissecting my answer until you find some detail that I can’t explain in sufficient molecular detail. Then you’ll accuse me of lying. If I answer “no” because I need to read up on some of the details and talk about it with my colleagues who have been working on the problem for decades, then you will pounce on that answer as well and declare that evolutionists are making up just-so stories. I know how you guys operate. You don’t really want to know any answers. You just want to play semantic “gotcha” games.
Is quitting this early in our discussion the best you can do? Is that your best? Answering those simple questions require humility, which is not a built-in feature of the human nature. BTW, your cheap excuses fall into the shameful category of Mina's "parole, parole, parole". I expected you could do much better than that. You have disappointed your party comrades, including your own admirer DTZ, who apparently kind of provoked this discussion. Please, reconsider your decision and come back to this serious discussion, which was going well, according to your own terms, one question at a time, as per your own request. Please, give it another try. Thanks.Dionisio
October 25, 2015
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