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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Virgil Cains asks, Larry Moran- Can you please link to this modern evolutionary theory so we all read what it actually says? Does that mean you are unfamiliar with modern evolutionary theory and need someone to explain it to you? Really? How can you be so adamantly opposed to something you know nothing about?Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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DTZ says, Please, don’t quit. I know you have what it takes to answer those simple questions. Many of us can’t answer them, but we have you to represent us. They are not simple questions. It would take me several days to gather up all the references and write something about Drosophila development that a non-scientist could understand. I haven't taught this stuff since 1990. Besides, I'm absolutely convinced than no answer would satisfy the crowd on this blog. Every time I try to explain something they just ask more questions. It's neverending. Meanwhile, you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer.Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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Andre asks, What are these 100 mutations for Prof Moran? Surely if unguided evolution is a fact like gravity we must have tested their function already….. No? Neutral theory is just another stuff happens in biological systems Rudeyard Kipling just so story. If it was a fact you would be able to model it, and test it. Where are the results Prof Moran? Vincent Torley can explain it to you. He understands this stuff and you're more likely to believe him. If you don't trust Vincent Torley then read Michael Denton's book Nature's Destiny. He can educate you as well.Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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DTZ @158 Perhaps I understand your disappointment. Maybe it's kind of frustrating to see such a knowledgeable scientist quitting (@146) a serious discussion, which was going according to his own terms, one question at a time, as per his explicit request. He could reconsider his decision and come back to continue our informative discussion. Perhaps many would appreciate it.Dionisio
October 25, 2015
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Professor Moran, I was so glad to see that you were answering all the questions that guy was asking, but now you have disappointed me with your last reply. Why? I did not understand well what you meant in your comment. I thought you will answer yes again. Don't you really know all that stuff now? Please, don't quit. I know you have what it takes to answer those simple questions. Many of us can't answer them, but we have you to represent us. Please, reconsider your decision. Big thank you in advance.DTZ
October 25, 2015
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When an "expert" read professor, insults you when you want answers from the horse's mouth you can be certain; He has nothing. What are these 100 mutations for Prof Moran? Surely if unguided evolution is a fact like gravity we must have tested their function already..... No? Neutral theory is just another stuff happens in biological systems Rudeyard Kipling just so story. If it was a fact you would be able to model it, and test it. Where are the results Prof Moran?Andre
October 25, 2015
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And thank you, Zachriel @ 145, for proving that natural selection is non-random in the most trivial sense. Heck by that standard mutations are non-random.
And that's the difference between delusion (it's all random, goals, fitness, selection and all that) and reality (pseudo-random/non-random). I do find it funny though that Zach put in so much effort in another thread to "prove" to me that adaptation (what he twists into "evolution") and trial and error mutations were random only to come in here and start singing a different tune. :D But then again, evodelusionists are not known for their consistency.Vy
October 25, 2015
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And thank you, Zachriel @ 145, for proving that natural selection is non-random in the most trivial sense. Heck by that standard mutations are non-random.
natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!
There are mutational hot spots, ie not all mutations are equiprobable, and because of that they are non-random for the same reason NS is.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Larry Moran- Can you please link to this modern evolutionary theory so we all read what it actually says? How is unguided evolution quantified in the theory? Is it just through population genetics?
Do you know what a gene is? Do you understand the concept of junk DNA? How about synonymous mutations?
Yes, yes and yes. I also know that synonymous mutations can cause problems with the protein.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Are you really this stupid or are you just playing an IDiot on this blog?
Wait, did a guy who believes mindless, purposeless, blindly selective and random processes formed something referred to as "just [x] pound meat" in his head attempt an insult? Is this guy from the same group that claims that ultimately, we're nothing but meat bags acting according to the random reactions in that "meat"?Vy
October 25, 2015
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Zach, I see you haven't done something about those eyes. They keep decreasing the already miniscule value in your comments, oh well.
The article you linked is about natural selection, which is only one component of evolution.
And:
The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random
___
As for natural selection
Yes, minus the selective blindness:
it's more accurate to think of natural selection as a process rather than as a guiding hand. Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity — it is mindless and mechanistic. It has no goals; it's not striving to produce "progress" or a balanced ecosystem.
Apparently, you think the "blindly selective" in "blindly selective randomness" is decorative. Oh wait, you're selectively blind, of course you missed it!Vy
October 25, 2015
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Andre asks, What are those 100 mutations for? What are their functions? Are you asking because you've never heard of Neutral Theory (dating from the 1960s)? How much of modern evolutionary theory do you understand? Population genetics? How about fundamental biochemistry and molecular biology? Do you know anything about those? Do you know what a gene is? Do you understand the concept of junk DNA? How about synonymous mutations? I need to know where to start. Should I go back to kindergarten level and explain it to you like I would explain it to my granddaughter?Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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Andre asks, Thank you for admitting that NS reduces information an ID prediction acknowledged by an opponent. That was very gracious of you. We have been saying it all along but that leaves us with the question. If NS reduces information how did it build the complexity we see? Are you asking because you haven't got a clue about modern evolutionary theory and how evolutionary biologists explain the evolution of complexity? That's what it sounds like but I can't believe you really are so ignorant of a science that you constantly criticize and mock. That doesn't make sense so I assume there's some subtle meaning behind your question. What is it?Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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Prof Moran What are those 100 mutations for? What are their functions?Andre
October 25, 2015
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Vy Your theory is a fact! Just like Zachriel's version of evolution. He even says Natural selection is sensitive, makes choices and above all has foresight. I'm not even kidding he said that.Andre
October 25, 2015
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Andre asks, Then if there are about 100 mutations per person what are they? Brown hair, blue eyes or wings growing on someone’s back? Are you really this stupid or are you just playing an IDiot on this blog? Are you challenging the evidence that every newborn baby has about 100 new mutations or are you merely revealing your ignorance of modern evolutionary theory?Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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Dionisio says, Here’s the next Yes/No question: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case? Hmmm ... that's the end of this discussion because I can't answer "yes" or "no" to such a question. If I answer "yes" because I have a pretty good idea how morphogen gradients are interpreted by cells then you will pounce on the word "exactly" and keep dissecting my answer until you find some detail that I can't explain in sufficient molecular detail. Then you'll accuse me of lying. If I answer "no" because I need to read up on some of the details and talk about it with my colleagues who have been working on the problem for decades, then you will pounce on that answer as well and declare that evolutionists are making up just-so stories. I know how you guys operate. You don't really want to know any answers. You just want to play semantic "gotcha" games. On the off chance that you really are interested in learning, please start by reading Drosophila embryogenesis. Here's a teaser ... "The genes that code for these mRNAs, called maternal effect genes, encode for proteins that get translated upon fertilization to establish concentration gradients that span the egg. Bicoid and Hunchback are the maternal effect genes that are most important for patterning of anterior parts (head and thorax) of the Drosophila embryo. Nanos and Caudal are maternal effect genes that are important in the formation of more posterior abdominal segments of the Drosophila embryo." We know a great deal about these genes. They are responsible for creating morphogen gradients and we know how developing cells respond to those gradients. Most of this work was begun in the 1980s so you've had plenty of time to learn about it if you were truly interested.Larry Moran
October 25, 2015
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Vy: I call evolution blindly selective randomness, but this popular “Guiding you on he path to self-delusion for easy acceptance of evolution” site says I’m being too nice, it’s in fact a blindly, mechanistic, mindless, purposeless selective randomness. The article you linked is about natural selection, which is only one component of evolution. The site does provide an overview of evolution. As for natural selection:
natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don't. Natural selection is NOT random!
Zachriel
October 25, 2015
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It raises the obvious question from Zachriel’s incoherent ramblings who set the checkpoints?
I posit the 5-member purple-horned leprechaun gang that escaped from the cosmic zoo a few days ago. They took over from the "nothings"* that were positioned at the "checkpoints of unusual viability" by the "how to continuously keep fitness fairies. They jump in excitement when they see evolution straggling along the "landscdpes of amateur fitness" with improperly positioned anti-myopia glasses and sack of deleterious mutations in hand detailing all its adventures. Anyways, that's just my imaginative speculation. :D * read: Grand Design gravity_is_a_nothing_creator "nothing"Vy
October 25, 2015
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Since natural selection eliminates the unfit by killing them, how come it has never figured out (it is a very wise NS, no?) a way to eliminate death altogether? Why are there no immortal animals? Why is every organism genetically programmed to die of old age? Is immortality considered an unfit characteristic for Darwinian evolution?Mapou
October 25, 2015
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Evolution is myopic
Hahahahaha! Alright, this is becoming less and less funny. Time to get back to reality. I call evolution blindly selective randomness, but this popular "Guiding you on he path to self-delusion for easy acceptance of evolution" site says I'm being too nice, it's in fact a blindly, mechanistic, mindless, purposeless selective randomness. Marginally popular Atheist horseman-wannabe, Jerry Coyne, and pals go further. Pal(s):
[Darwin’s] alternative to intelligent design was design by the completely mindless process of natural selection, according to which organisms possessing variations that enhance survival or reproduction replace those less suitably endowed, which therefore survive or reproduce in lesser degree. This process cannot have a goal, any more than erosion has the goal of forming canyons, for the future cannot cause material events in the present. Thus the concepts of goals or purposes have no place in biology (or any other of the natural sciences), except in studies of human behavior. (p. 282)
Wannabe:
And, indeed, this is what I teach—that natural selection, and evolution in general, are material processes, blind, mindless, and purposeless.
Oh well, so much for being nice. Zach, I sent an "inter-web slap" to jolt you back to a little bit of reality, has it arrived? You know, network issues and all ...Vy
October 25, 2015
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It raises the obvious question from Zachriel's incoherent ramblings who set the checkpoints?Andre
October 25, 2015
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Folks, see why the issues: 1: getting to self replication (the vNkSR) to begin with 2: the issue of roughness in fitness functions 3: the issue of getting to islands of function (starting with AA sequence space and the 20^n problem) . . . all become key, and linked to that, the vera causa challenge? KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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Vy: Wait, evolution can see??? Fitness landscapes??? Evolution is myopic. Vy: So it has a goal: “Dang it! I gotta get to the next checkpoint so I can save my progress”. Every point of viability is a checkpoint. Offspring strongly resembles parents, so continuation of fitness is typical. If there is a beneficial mutation, then this increased fitness can propagate through a population, while deleterious mutations tend to be filtered out. Vy: Never was (when it was called spontaneous generation), isn’t and never will be. It's hard to predict the future progress of science. It was once thought we couldn't possibly know the composition of stars.Zachriel
October 25, 2015
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Evolution can’t see far ahead, but can move through the fitness landscape in steps.
Wait, evolution can see??? Fitness landscapes??? So it has a goal: "Dang it! I gotta get to the next checkpoint so I can save my progress". Have you googled "Evolution is blind" because what you're saying sounds pretty funny to me.
You seem to be concerned with the origin of life.
I seem? That was one of the major the points of my post and you're saying "I seem".
Indeed, there is as yet no complete theory of abiogenesis.
Never was (when it was called spontaneous generation), isn't and never will be.Vy
October 25, 2015
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Awwwwww Prof Moran has abandoned this post, I was so looking forward to his answer.Andre
October 25, 2015
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Box: Is “natural selection” limited to the competition for resources? We'll restate that as Natural selection among replicators is inevitable due to competition for necessarily limited resources. Vy: Wait, what what what, what, say whaaaaaat??? It's a basic analogy, and should be non-controversial. Evolution can't see far ahead, but can move through the fitness landscape in steps. Vy: It creates a chicken-egg problem; the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism needs replication and reproduction, reproduction and replication need the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism to even have a chance of existing. You seem to be concerned with the origin of life. Natural selection is not sufficient to account for abiogenesis. Indeed, there is as yet no complete theory of abiogenesis.Zachriel
October 25, 2015
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Evolution isn’t a blind search, but an incremental crawl, as it were, feeling its way along.
Wait, what what what, what, say whaaaaaat??? Boy, I gotta give you brownie points for the superficial effortlessness in your redefinitions, gobsmackingly awesome!
It’s the result of replication</strong< and the competition for necessarily limited resources.
???
Vy: It creates a chicken-egg problem; the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism needs replication and reproduction, reproduction and replication need the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism to even have a chance of existing.
Yeah, sorry Zach, you haven't answered anything.Vy
October 25, 2015
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Zachs: [Natural selection] is the result of replication and the competition for necessarily limited resources.
Is "natural selection" limited to the competition for resources? How about e.g. a severe winter?Box
October 25, 2015
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Box: Are there any circumstances under which natural selection adds information? It depends on how you define information. Diversifying selection doesn't create new alleles, but results in rare alleles becoming more common in a population.
Without selection: 99 44/100% of A, 56/100% of B With diversifying selection: 60% of A, 40% of B The latter means there will be many more possible combinations of traits (paired with C,D, etc.) in the gene pool.
Keep in mind, though, that selection doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are always new variants being created, mostly adaptively neutral, so diversifying selection will tend to maintain this diversity in a population, rather than it becoming extinct. Box: If natural selection is a substractor of information then it follows that it impedes on a blind search. Evolution isn't a blind search, but an incremental crawl, as it were, feeling its way along. Vy: I’ve always wondered what explanation Darwinists have for the origin of NS. It's the result of replication and the competition for necessarily limited resources.Zachriel
October 25, 2015
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