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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Lar Tanner, I'm not a biologist either. First, it seems to me that a more appropriate term for "natural selection" would be "natural elimination". Elimination is the consequence of not getting necessary resources. This can have all sorts of reasons, only one reason is that there is (better) competition for the resources that an organism wants. Another reason can be that the resources are no longer available due to a change in climate or due to degradation of the resources or whatever. So, "natural elimination due to lack of resources", seems to me an apt general translation/explanation of "natural selection".Box
October 25, 2015
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Yes, natural selection is a result- if you have differential reproduction due to heritable random mutations, you have natural selection as the result.Virgil Cain
October 25, 2015
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Box: "My understanding is that it follows from lack of resources." I am not a biologist, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to say NS is a byproduct of _competition_ for resources between populations sharing the same environment? In any case, here is Darwin himself explaining NS in Ch.3 of the Origin:
Again, it may be asked, how is it that varieties, which I have called incipient species, become ultimately converted into good and distinct species, which in most cases obviously differ from each other far more than do the varieties of the same species? How do those groups of species, which constitute what are called distinct genera, and which differ from each other more than do the species of the same genus, arise? All these results, as we shall more fully see in the next chapter, follow inevitably from the struggle for life. Owing to this struggle for life, any variation, however slight and from whatever cause proceeding, if it be in any degree profitable to an individual of any species, in its infinitely complex relations to other organic beings and to external nature, will tend to the preservation of that individual, and will generally be inherited by its offspring. The offspring, also, will thus have a better chance of surviving, for, of the many individuals of any species which are periodically born, but a small number can survive. I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term of Natural Selection, in order to mark its relation to man's power of selection. We have seen that man by selection can certainly produce great results, and can adapt organic beings to his own uses, through the accumulation of slight but useful variations, given to him by the hand of Nature. But Natural Selection, as we shall hereafter see, is a power incessantly ready for action, and is as immeasurably superior to man's feeble efforts, as the works of Nature are to those of Art.
I've bolded the relevant part.LarTanner
October 25, 2015
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Vy, Thanks. Indeed, the origin of the mechanism of reproduction cannot be explained by NS and according to Koonin we need to invoke the multiverse to explain its existence. :)Box
October 25, 2015
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Box, isn't the Salter quote an explanation for why it exists not how it came into existence?Vy
October 25, 2015
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Well, the mechanism of reproduction has to come from somewhere, it didn't just pop out of nowhere, and based on the Darwinists potrayal of NS (for example, Zach's claims about aerobic citrate eating bacteria), that mechanism can't exist without NS.Vy
October 25, 2015
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Vy: I’ve always wondered what explanation Darwinists have for the origin of NS.
My understanding is that it follows from lack of resources.
Frank K. Salter: According to Ernst Mayer, one of the most influential advocates of the modern “synthesis”, evolutionary theory proceeds from the assumption of a general scarcity of resources, and the ensuing competition of individuals over access to these resources.
Vy: It creates a chicken-egg problem; the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism needs replication and reproduction, reproduction and replication need the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism to even have a chance of existing.
I understand that NS needs reproduction, but I don't get that reproduction needs NS. Would you care to explain?Box
October 25, 2015
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I've always wondered what explanation Darwinists have for the origin of NS. Google doesn't offer anything helpful. I mean, Theodosius Dobzhansky, creator of the immensely foolish "nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution" comment, made it pretty clear that its gotta come from somewhere when he said "prebiological natural selection is a contradiction of terms". It creates a chicken-egg problem; the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism needs replication and reproduction, reproduction and replication need the NS weed_out_the_bad mechanism to even have a chance of existing. Thus, any arguments for common descent are dead upon arrival. No NS -> No reproduction -> No first cell -> No DNA (or imaginary variant they propose) -> No first cell -> No reproduction -> No NS. That's why the 98% DNA similarity babble in the other post is, well, babble.Vy
October 25, 2015
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KF, thank you for clearing that up.Vy
October 25, 2015
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Box, yup. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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Kairosfocus,
KF: You put your finger on a key issue.
It seems to me that the Darwinian narrative is founded on the misconception that “natural selection” is creative, in the sense that it adds information. The Darwinian idea is that natural selection improves chances for the underlying blind search, but in fact the opposite is the true.
KF: Natural selection, strictly, is a supposed analogy to artificial selection as with breeding of pigeons or dogs etc, whereby already occurring variations are separated out for breeding. The analogy was, that nature could select out by culling the less fit.
Each selection implies elimination of information. What else can it be? And note that we are talking about unique information about robust organisms. “Robust” in the sense that these organisms are self-organizing and capable of reproducing —amazing capabilities that must be present before natural selection enters the scene.
KF: From such, we then get to, differential success of sub populations leading to descent with incremental, branching tree modification.
Sub populations of sub populations … and at each step unique information is lost not gained.
KF: But underneath lurks: the natural selection part is a SUBTRACTER not an ADDER of information. The info has to come in from something else.
Indeed. If natural selection does not add information and is in fact doing quite the opposite, the all-important question ”where does the information come from?” becomes even more urgent. * I would like to get one thing perfectly clear. If natural selection is a substractor of information then it follows that it impedes on a blind search. So, an unhampered purely mathematical blind search (starting with an imperfect replicator) would yield better results. In other words, without the role of natural selection, evolutionists would have a stronger case whenever they argue that we can get from a bacterium to a human.Box
October 25, 2015
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Vy, the accusation that terms like macro-/micro- evolution are "only used by Creationists" has been so common at UD and more widely, that it has had to be addressed in the weak argument correctives. Similar things hold for several other terms, including in my case trying to pretend that a summary description turned into an acronym, FSCO/I is suspect when in fact it comes from Orgel and Wicken and is in a context where it is known that the more common term, CSI, in biological contexts, is functional. My point is that namecalling dismissals and oh its just some few suspect oddballs who talk like that are ill-founded genetic fallacies and well poisoning; which reasonable people should set to one side. Next, the tendency is to say Intelligent Design Creationists -- as is common at Sandwalk blog, thus to project Creationists in a cheap tuxedo as a dismissal of design thought and to divert from nature vs art to natural vs the allegedly suspect supernatural. My point on this is that on strictly empirical observational evidence, an inference to design can be grounded and attempts to project right wing, Bible thumping fundy would be theocrats and terrorists comparable to islamists like Bin Laden is a classic case of red herrings led out to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, poison and polarise the atmosphere. It is also a case of chained slanders, Creationists having been successfully tainted and hounded out to the fringes (following those who 100 years ago courageously stood against modernist apostasy and published The Fundamentals as a testimony of historic truth and its warrant) that tag is now used in a bigoted manner to smear and dismiss others without thought. They are trying to taint Christian, also. But now, innocent blood cries up from the ground, only to be tip-toed around as if it is just a bit of inconvenient mess not an indictment against a sustained willful slander and enabling of such in the teeth of warnings on predictable consequences. KF PS: Cf here on the term, from UD's WACs: https://uncommondescent.com/faq/#macmictrmskairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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The issue is not, oh micro evo easily extrapolates into macro evo, if we accept such terms only used by creationists.
Wait, what? There's been a lot of finger-pointing at YEC recently, so much so that some declare it non-science for all intents and purposes (and Robert dealt with that), and some have made it seem like something so toxic that the IDM would suffocate to death if they don't declare a "code red" on it. No problem, it teaches a thing or two. Now, everyone has a right to the express their opinions but I gotta ask, KF, what do you mean by "only used by creationists"? I'm a YEC and I certainly don't use it (except when explaining the nonsense it leads to), encourage its use or even entertain its use in my discussions (my interaction with Zach being a case-in-point). CMI, ICR and even AIG don't either, and yes, while some creationists DO use it, they certainly aren't the only ones. I've seen it being used on here several times and I'm 100% certain you've used it more than once in other comments so I'd appreciate it if you answer.Vy
October 25, 2015
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Box You put your finger on a key issue. Natural selection, strictly, is a supposed analogy to artificial selection as with breeding of pigeons or dogs etc, whereby already occurring variations are separated out for breeding. The analogy was, that nature could select out by culling the less fit. From such, we then get to, differential success of sub populations leading to descent with incremental, branching tree modification. But underneath lurks: the natural selection part is a SUBTRACTER not an ADDER of information. The info has to come in from something else. Thus, the often undiscussed pivotal significance of non-foresighted, chance variation and mechanisms. (BTW, that is one reason I refuse to let stand the rhetorical tendency of using natural selection to stand for the whole; it glides too easily over the crucial part.) So, the issue is, needle in haystack search for islands of function on resources relative to scope of search that are negligibly different from zero. Where the difference between non-function and non-function on the intervening seas of configs is 0 - 0 = 0. Until you arrive at shorelines of function it is pointless to describe how one can incrementally climb hills. ( Which raises the further issue of rough fitness landscapes with trapping valleys and plateaux.) Starting with body plan no 1, and going on to the dozens to be explained, beginning from protein fold domains and isolation in AA sequence space much less wider organic chemistry. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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F/N 3: Plato warned us 2350+ years ago:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
kairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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F/N 2: Philip Johnson's (yes, the same who by reason of ill health is not in a position to reply for himself) well-deserved reply later that year:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural" . . . namely blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the lateer is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
kairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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F/N: It is relevant to note from Lewontin on that ideological imposition:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads [==> as in, "we" have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge] we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
kairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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Folks, I want to deal with the main matter on the table, but need to first clear the air of the toxic, polarising smoke of burning, ad hominem laced strawmen. Pardon a pause to do so. PART I: The rhetorical side track, in a toxic agit-prop context Observe the rhetorical patterns at work. Attack attack attack -- ID is not science, or at best small pockets of bad science, ID advocates are not scientists or are wanna-bes in brief sum. Meanwhile, a priori evolutionary materialist ideology is imposed by the lab coat clad magisterium who act as lock-out artists and gate-keepers. Locking people out of getting degrees, getting or holding academic jobs, being published, being fair-minded editors of journals, personal attacks against people, outright slander, cyberstalking and worse. All are patently going on, all are swept under the carpet. And LM's Sandwalk is not an exception to the bigotry, hostility and bullyboyism. At least, LM, one or two commenters at your own blog stood up for me in the face of abusive behaviour when your own blog went off into the weeds like this. Are you aware that some of the more unhinged bullyboys have tried to besiege the local newspaper here through slanders and ugly hints of on the ground stalking -- even of people connected to me in remote degree? That, is the reality of the rhetorical matches you and others like you have been playing with. I call your tactics enabling behaviour, for cause. So, LM: kindly drop the stunt of personality laced, outing tactic cyberstalking rhetorical attacks on decent people, as at yesterday. In your case, Mrs O'Leary is a decent, hard-working grandmother. A lady, in case you do not get the message. Leave her alone. Period. Likewise, tell your ilk -- and don't try to deny it, leave my family alone. Enough is enough. And, I hope you get the point on where the tactics you and too many others have resorted to lead. In case you don't make the connexion, think English class at Umpqua, with madmen distilling shoot on sight out of spreading unbridled hostility and anti-Christian bigotry. The body-count, in North America, is now NINE from just this incident. In case it has not got through the news censorship, Christians for decades have become the main target of bigotry and persecution. So, in that context, intemperate language targetting Christians takes on an ugly, ugly, revealing colour. Oh, there are oodles of talking points to try to distract from such things and blow them off, but the hellish fever-swamp smell is unmistakable. But, that's not the core warrant of scientific claims problem. (Though, it points to a very serious ideological one as our civilisation continues on its mad march of folly as it willfully turns its back on its Judaeo-Christian heritage and thus undermines foundations for ethics and common decency.) The point of attack, attack, attack, never apologise for misbehaviour, double down, switch lines of attack, etc is to project the false notion that design theory is little more than creationism in a cheap tuxedo. Something, LM, that you and others of like ilk routinely allude to by using terms like "Intelligent Design Creationists" -- onlookers, such full well know or could easily know better but hope to profit from speaking in disregard to duties of care to truth and fairness. Fair comment, those who indulge such tactics in such a climate (now, with blood -- Christian blood -- on the ground), reveal themselves to be less than reasonable participants in a discussion on the merits. But that's still on the rhetoric and agit-prop ideological game. The game that is finished as a game, now that innocent blood cries up from the ground. Anyone who insists on intemperate new atheist rhetoric or slanderous labelling or personal attacks, outing games and cyberstalking on the internet or on the ground in such a context is at minimum a foolish enabler of evil. Enough said on an ugly but necessary subject. Decent people will know that the time has more than come for turning away from fever swamp tactics and enabling of such. PART II: The actual scientifically relevant issue on the table Back on the merits of actual science, everyone who cares can easily see that the pivotal question on the world of cell based life is origin of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information (which is in key cases coded), FSCO/I for short. What is the observed, adequate cause for FSCO/I? Yes, I am pointing to Newton's vera causa principle taken up by Lyell and acknowledged by Darwin. The answer is there for all to see. To control unbridled, ideologically tinged metaphysical imposition on science, the principle is that if we only have traces of a spatially or temporally remote entity to deal with, we should only permit ourselves to use explanatory constructs we can observe here and now to have proven capacity to cause substantially equivalent effects. Then, we can properly make a like causes like argument. Spectroscopy in astrophysics readily meets the test. The institutionally dominant and too often domineering, educationally manipulative (sometimes to the point of deceptions like the Haeckel embryos fraud that have played on and on for a century in textbook after textbook, never mind repeated corrections . . . ) and abusive evolutionary materialist origins narrative fails the test. Notoriously so. Gross extrapolation from finch beaks, pepper moth colouration, genetic drift, minor cases of natural selection on various forms of chance non-foresighted variation and the like have never met the vera causa test. It is the lurking shadow of assumed evolutionary materialism backed by raw institutional power games that has created the false impression of proof. And lurking behind, is the even deeper challenge of explaining origin of cell based life, including of the reproduction based on cellular self-replication that must be in place before differential reproductive success of populations can come into play. As in, origin of relevant FSCO/I has to be ultimately explained on blind watchmaker forces of physics and chemistry for OOL, and on needing to cross seas of non-function to new islands of function for origin of body plans. OOL? Yes, as Smithsonian acknowledges in a display on the tree of life, OOL is its root. In a context where I can freely say on a trillion-member observational base in a world of technology, that the only observed cause of FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity (explicit or implicit in description length to specify organisation in a nodes arcs network description) is intelligently directed configuration. AKA, design. So, right from the root of the tree of life, design sits at the table of vera causa plausible explanations as of right, not grudging sufferance. And, as fair comment, the other chairs at the inference to best, empirically warranted current explanations of OOL table are empty. That vera causa test result dramatically shifts the context in which we look at the tree of life. But, you will never hear that from evolutionary materialism advocates. Nor will such admit that inference to best current, empirically warranted explanation is a valid and essentially positive form of inductive scientific inference. No, it's not, protein/metabolism failed, RNA world/genes etc first is dubious so we jump to design. Instead, before reproduction is on the table, the answers can only come from thermodynamically plausible physics and chemistry. And those forces back up the empirical observation that the only actually demonstrated cause of FSCO/I is design. The needle in astronomically large haystack blind search challenge on utterly limited cosmological resources challenge is real. Unanswerably real, to the point that some would appeal to unobservable multiverse speculations. (They don't do so so blatantly these days, but the debates have gone on for years, if you just came in late in the play.) Islands of function? Yes, start with just AA sequence space, and look at the distribution of foldable protein domains, where folding properly is a necessary condition of key-lock mutual fit based function, where a typical protein of length n comes from a space of 20^n chaining possibilities, where n = 300 for a typical case and even if we go down to 100 proteins and 100 AA as a generous estimate for a first cell, that has is looking at 20^10,000 as config space to explore and get right BEFORE we can talk on blind chance variation and differential reproductive success leading to branching tree descent with modification yielding a tree of life pattern . . . and we won't more than mention the cross links pattern that points to an effective library of re-used parts. And as we look at how proteins are distributed in that space, we see what logic leads us to expect: scattered islands of function. For, FSCO/I will sharply constrain the possibilities that function in specific configuration dependent ways, from the set of all possibilities. So, if you are at the initial island of cell based life and then need to move from that to complex body plans, you will run into the need for 10 - 100+ mn bases of new biological information to account for cell types, tissues, organs and systems, in a co-ordinated, regulated whole that requires adequate embryological explanation from a zygote or the equivalent. Such is a massively informational, heavily constrained control and automated assembly problem and the evidence is that such systems have one observed cause, design. Where, there are several dozen body plans at that level, with the Cambrian fossil revolution issue on the table from Darwin's day to today. Hence, Meyer's Darwin's Doubt. But but but machinery does not replicate itself, and so we can brush it aside, will be almost inevitable. Paley anticipated Darwin on that by 50 years, in Chapter 2 of his Natural Theology, which Darwin knew and studied. So, the lack of cogent answer to and the linked lack of frank up front centre addressing of the following clip are utterly telling:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch should after some time discover that, in addition to all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself -- the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use.
Yes, Wikipedia et al, when you jump all over Paley's stumbling on a stone vs finding a watch in a field thought exercise in Ch 1, then fail to go on to address cogently or at least face frankly his discussion of a self replicating watch in ch 2, that is a strawman tactic in defiance of duties of care to truth and fairness. The von Neumann kinematic self-replicator (vNkSR) does at least take up the issue, c 1948. And lo and behold, it depends on codes and addresses an irreducibly complex system of high complexity. Indeed, a class of machine that is beyond what we are able to do as yet. And, remember, this has to be done BEFORE reproduction can get started. Done, by blind watchmaker physics and chemistry that are thermodynamically plausible in some warm little pond or the like environment. This is not a matter of flawed analogies to be brushed aside, the FSCO/I in cells for OOL is patent, and the increments to get to major body plans up to our own, is also plainly on the table. Speaking of which, if our genome is 2% different from that of the chimp, that is 60 mn bases, in a context of 6 - 10 MY was it, searching -- successfully -- a space of 20^60,000,000 power. With protein islands of function staring you in the face. The issue is not common descent to one degree or another, all the way up to universal common descent from LUCA. The issue is OOL and so of FSCO/I and involving vNkSR, on blind watchmaker thermodynamically plausible physics and chemistry. It is origin of body plans via blind watchmaker macro-evolution by whatever means can show themselves to pass the vera causa test in the context of the relevant FSCO/I. And it remains a fact that the only serious and only seriously prospective causal explanation for FSCO/I is intelligently directed configuration. Where Venter et al have already showed that design of biological forms is credibly feasible, through molecular scale nanotechnology. So, the issue is not creationism in a cheap tuxedo -- a canard that should be retired and apologised for. The issue is not boasting of grand and allegedly successful scientific toil and complaining of "theft" by those despised Intelligent Design Creationists. That too, should be withdrawn and publicly apologised for. The issue is not, oh micro evo easily extrapolates into macro evo, if we accept such terms only used by creationists. Here, the canard is multiple-level, the macro-/ micro distinction and the origin of body plans issue have long been on the table. Where, the terms did not come from those despised creationists. Even if they were, the terms speak to a real and un-answered challenge. Worse, to try to tag design thinkers tracing back to Plato with the term Creationist is an example of namecalling without proper foundation. The issues on the table above do not depend on exegesis of Bible texts or on insertion of religious ideas, they point to an easily seen phenomenon, FSCO/I, and ask, what causally explains it. Then, the vera causa test is put on the table. The answer comes up, design best explains FSCO/I and there are no known or likely exceptions. if you want to overturn that inference, the proper answer is to show FSCO/I and especially vNkSR based entities coming about by blind chance and mechanical necessity. With particular reference to OOL and origin of body plans [OOBP]. That is the issue on the table, per abductive, inductive inference to best current explanation on empirical warrant that meets the vera causa test. Over to you Prof Moran, and ilk. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2015
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Larry Moran, Box: do you hold that natural selection reduces information?
Larry Moran: natural selection reduces diversity in a population. If the presence of multiple alleles in a population represents more information than a single allele the, yes, natural selection reduces total information in a population.
Are there any circumstances under which natural selection adds information? Or is it — "natural selection reduces information" — a general rule with no exceptions?Box
October 25, 2015
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Then if there are about 100 mutations per person what are they? Brown hair, blue eyes or wings growing on someone's back?Andre
October 24, 2015
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Prof Moran Thank you for admitting that NS reduces information an ID prediction acknowledged by an opponent. That was very gracious of you. We have been saying it all along but that leaves us with the question. If NS reduces information how did it build the complexity we see?Andre
October 24, 2015
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If lactose intolerance and sickle cell disease are the best examples of RM & NS and drift then the unguided evolution crowd really does not have much. All it shows us is that when something goes wrong with the integrity checks, and repairs the organism is disadvantaged and when the PCD systems as the failsafe also fail the organism dies. Where did these systems come from? I must admit Prof Moran's version of evolutionary biology is just a stuff happens or they don't version. Much like God did it if you will. But what Prof Moran has not done is answer my actual question. How did unguided processes create guided processes to prevent unguided processes from happening?Andre
October 24, 2015
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Larry Moran @94 (Re: #91)
Dionisio asks,
Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are formed, at least one case? Please, just answer YES or NO, without any additional explanation, comments or questions.
Yes.
Ok, thank you for responding the above question. Here's the next Yes/No question: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case? Please, just answer YES or NO, without any additional explanation, comments or questions. Again, thank you for your willingness to graciously share your vast scientific knowledge here.Dionisio
October 24, 2015
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Moran:
Mapou says, I bet none of those authors makes the case that naturalistic evolution is falsified. That’s correct. Biological evolution is a proven fact. It is directly observable. It can’t be falsified any more than gravity can be falsified or No scientist would be stupid enough to say that biological evolution has been falsified.
Don't you dare insult my intelligence. I am not your dog. Everybody knows that changes occur. We can observe change in ourselves and in animals. We don't need evolutionists and other elitists to teach us that. What is not observed (the actual bone of contention) is the claim that minute random genetic changes over eons are responsible for the appearance of all the species on earth. This is obviously hogwash because the combinatorial explosion kills all stochastic search mechanisms (e.g., RM+NS) dead. Read it and weep.
I bet they only criticise some of the more unpalatable aspects of the theory and make suggestions on how to correct the problems. That’s pretty much correct although there have been some pretty drastic changes to evolutionary theory in the past fifty years. Neutral theory and the prevalence of random genetic drift came out of molecular evolution. Punctuated equilibria were discovered by paleontologists some of whom also advocate species selection. Group selection is currently a hot topic. All of these additions refute strict Darwinism and demonstrate that you were dead wrong when you claimed that,”criticising Darwinian evolution is committing career suicide” and “The fact is that Darwinists are extremely averse to any criticism of evolution.” Apology accepted.
Again I am not your dog. So you can kiss my asteroid. None of this matters since none of it opposes the central Darwinist dogma that all species arose via minute random changes over eons. This is the actual Darwinian hypothesis that must be falsified. Where is the experiment to falsify it? Nowhere to be found, of course.
Show me one prominent biologist in the mainstream who openly denies materialism and naturalism and is still successful. There are plenty of religious scientists who deny that materialism is the only way to describe the universe. I think they are wrong but as long as they try to keep religion out of their science they can be quite successful. Are you trying to move the goalposts?
Man, I got no respect for you. You are pseudoscientist in my book.Mapou
October 24, 2015
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Larry Moran:
I hope you now understand the difference between DNA damage and mutation.
Yes, I do. The difference between DNA damage and mutation is whether or not the damage (mutation) was repaired. If the damage (mutation) was repaired its "not really" a mutation. If the damage was not repaired then it "really is" a mutation.
Mutations that have no effect on fitness are called neutral mutations or “nearly neutral” mutations.
I didn't say anything about "fitness." I asked about whether your mechanism (random mutation) was capable of producing enough phenotypic diversity, given the fact that most of your random mutations have no discernable phenotypic effect.Mung
October 24, 2015
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Mung:
You’re not paying attention. If it was repaired, it wasn’t a mutation.
This is not true, of course. If something mutated, there was a mutation. Hopefully, you are being sarcastic but, if not, you're mistaken. The claim is that mutations are random. If that were true, mutations would happen everywhere in the genome with equal probability. But this is not what happens. Only a relatively few base pairs (the neutral ones) are allowed to mutate. Most genes and sequences are conserved over millions of years. Therefore, mutations are not random and Darwinian evolution is falsified.
Therefore, repair mechanisms do not reduce the number of mutations.
Surely you're joking.Mapou
October 24, 2015
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Mapou:
The hard truth is that the vast majority of mutations are deleterious and even lethal. This is why the genome comes with a powerful DNA repair mechanism that repairs the vast majority of mutations. Without it, we would all be dead. The so-called neutral mutations are obviously in sequences that are allowed to mutate by design.
You're not paying attention. If it was repaired, it wasn't a mutation. Therefore, repair mechanisms do not reduce the number of mutations.Mung
October 24, 2015
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Moran, I do understand perfectly well that you, and all your self appointed 'Darwinian experts' that are living off the public dime, are living in a fantasy land if you think the majority of DNA is junk. to repeat, DNA is mind blowing.
3-D Structure Of Human Genome: Fractal Globule Architecture Packs Two Meters Of DNA Into Each Cell - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: the information density in the nucleus is trillions of times higher than on a computer chip -- while avoiding the knots and tangles that might interfere with the cell's ability to read its own genome. Moreover, the DNA can easily unfold and refold during gene activation, gene repression, and cell replication. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm The Chromosome in Nuclear Space - Stephen L. Talbott Managing the Twists Perhaps none of this helps us greatly to understand how the extraordinarily long chromosome, tremendously compacted to varying degrees along its length, can maintain itself coherently within the functioning cell. But here’s one relevant consideration: there are enzymes called topoisomerases, whose task is to help manage the forces and stresses within chromosomes. Demonstrating a spatial insight and dexterity that might amaze those of us who have struggled to sort out tangled masses of thread, these enzymes manage to make just the right local cuts to the strands in order to relieve strain, allow necessary movement of individual genes or regions of the chromosome, and prevent a hopeless mass of knots. Some topoisomerases cut just one of the strands of the double helix, allow it to wind or unwind around the other strand, and then reconnect the severed ends. Other topoisomerases cut both strands, pass a loop of the chromosome through the gap thus created, and then seal the gap again. (Imagine trying this with miles of string crammed into a tennis ball — without tying the string into knots!) I don’t think anyone would claim to have the faintest idea how this is actually managed in a meaningful, overall, contextual sense, although great and fruitful efforts are being made to analyze isolated local forces and “mechanisms”. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/mqual/genome_2.htm Talbott: If you arranged the DNA in a human cell linearly, it would extend for nearly two meters. How do you pack all that DNA into a cell nucleus just five or ten millionths of a meter in diameter? According to the usual comparison it’s as if you had to pack 24 miles (40 km) of extremely thin thread into a tennis ball. Moreover, this thread is divided into 46 pieces (individual chromosomes) averaging, in our tennis-ball analogy, over half a mile long. Can it be at all possible not only to pack the chromosomes into the nucleus, but also to keep them from becoming hopelessly entangled? Obviously it must be possible, however difficult to conceive — and in fact an endlessly varied packing and unpacking is going on all the time.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/amazing-dna-repair-process-further-detailed/#comment-579574 Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Of note: DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days.
NP-hard problem – Examples Excerpt: Another example of an NP-hard problem is the optimization problem of finding the least-cost cyclic route through all nodes of a weighted graph. This is commonly known as the traveling salesman problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard#Examples
Yet it is exactly this type of ‘traveling salesman problem’ that quantum computers excel at:
Speed Test of Quantum Versus Conventional Computing: Quantum Computer Wins - May 8, 2013 Excerpt: quantum computing is, "in some cases, really, really fast." McGeoch says the calculations the D-Wave excels at involve a specific combinatorial optimization problem, comparable in difficulty to the more famous "travelling salesperson" problem that's been a foundation of theoretical computing for decades.,,, "This type of computer is not intended for surfing the internet, but it does solve this narrow but important type of problem really, really fast," McGeoch says. "There are degrees of what it can do. If you want it to solve the exact problem it's built to solve, at the problem sizes I tested, it's thousands of times faster than anything I'm aware of. If you want it to solve more general problems of that size, I would say it competes -- it does as well as some of the best things I've looked at. At this point it's merely above average but shows a promising scaling trajectory." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130508122828.htm
Since it is obvious that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers to this monster logistic problem, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, by crunching bits, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, is somehow being computed by ‘non-local’ quantum computation within the cell and/or within DNA;
Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
This level of quantum computation found in DNA is orders of magnitude more advanced than anything man has yet accomplished in regards to quantum computation in machinesbornagain
October 24, 2015
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Moran:
In genomes with a large amount of junk DNA, such as our own, the vast majority of mutations are neutral (>90%).
This is another Darwinist lie. The hard truth is that the vast majority of mutations are deleterious and even lethal. This is why the genome comes with a powerful DNA repair mechanism that repairs the vast majority of mutations. Without it, we would all be dead. The so-called neutral mutations are obviously in sequences that are allowed to mutate by design. There can be no doubt that whoever designed the genes of living organisms wanted a certain amount of variety within most species. Why? Most likely for reasons having to do with adaptation, aesthetics and beauty. Programmers are familiar with this. They know that certain parts of a program (e.g., configuration parameters, properties, etc) are less likely to lead to catastrophic failures if randomly modified than other parts. Properties that must not be changed are called constants. This is also why the controlling part of a program (the code itself) is protected from modification. It's obvious something similar is happening in our genes. Nothing escapes intelligent design.Mapou
October 24, 2015
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bornagain says, Anyone who believes our genome is mostly junk is simply not living in the real world but is living in a fantasy land: Those are the kind of ridiculous statements that give ID such bad reputation. The very best you could say in 2015 is that there's an ongoing scientific debate about the amount of junk DNA in the human genome. Right now the majority of knowledgeable scientists agree that most of our genome is junk. If you say that the majority of experts are living in a fantasy land then that says a lot more about you than them. Why not try to read and understand a topic rather than just continue your knee-jerk response by posting a whole lot of links whenever a topic comes up that vaguely matches something in your database? Anyone who has been making even a half-hearted attempt to keep up with the field will know that the ENCODE claims have been solidly refuted and even the ENCODE authors have retracted their original conclusion that most of the human genome is functional.Larry Moran
October 24, 2015
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