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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Larry Moran:
Similarly, until ID proponents are able to convince the scientific community that there really is solid scientific evidence for the existence of a designer they will not be hired as professors and scientists and real scientific journals will not publish your papers.
The intelligent design is evidence for an intelligent designer, Larry. If the scientific community could just support their claims then ID would be a non-starter.
It has to make its case and convince scientists that it is valid science.
Who made the case that unguided evolution is science? At least Intelligent Design evolution can be modeled. ID is evidenced in biology, chemistry and physics. It makes claims that are both testable and falsifiable. Think about this, larry:
“There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.” The Privileged Planet
Your position explains that as just a lucky happenstance. That is the extent of your "science".Virgil Cain
October 24, 2015
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PaV asks, If this is a concern for you, are you then not also concerned that universities are adverse to anyone espousing an ID position, and that journals are also ill-disposed? While I'm happy to concede that some ID proponents are trying to do science there's still the issue of whether or not they do it successfully. Universities don't just hire anyone who claims to be doing science. Instead, they make a judgement about whether it's good science or not. Universities don't hire people with Ph.D.s who claim that homeopathy works or that there is valid scientific evidence of UFO abductions or that vaccinations don't protect children against disease. Similarly, until ID proponents are able to convince the scientific community that there really is solid scientific evidence for the existence of a designer they will not be hired as professors and scientists and real scientific journals will not publish your papers. ID is no different from any other new way of looking at things. It has to make its case and convince scientists that it is valid science. That's how the system works and it's a good thing that it does work that way because there are a lot of kooks out there in the real world. ID has had over twenty years to convince the scientific community that it's a legitimate point of view. It hasn't succeeded on it's scientific merits and it's about time you recognized that failure and stop attributing it to some kind of conspiracy. It has failed because it doesn't have a case, at least not yet. What do you suggest doing to remedy the present situation so that biologists who view life through an ID prism are soon able to get degrees and publish papers? Do better science. It will help if ID can shed itself of its bad reputation as a movement that embraces kooks and YECs. It will help if biologists who view life through an ID perspective demonstrate that they understand evolution. You can't get a degree if you don't understand the basics of your discipline and you can't legitimately criticize the current models when, as soon as you open your mouth, you reveal your ignorance. I'm not saying that all of you are ignorant but many of you are. Don't expect to be handed a degree if you don't do your homework and you can't think critically about biology. Over on my blog we jump on scientists and evolution supporters who get their facts wrong or make unsubstantiated claims about evolution and biology. That's how real scientists behave. They are constantly trying to improve their understanding by engaging in self-criticism and re-examining their views. You hardly ever see that in the ID community even when different ID supporters have very different views, such as whether or not to accept common descent or whether they understand random genetic drift. That's not how you should behave if you want to be taken seriously. That's not how you should behave if you want to get degrees and publish papers. Stop whining about being persecuted. Every new and revolutionary idea in science starts off in a minority position where it's rejected by the vast majority of scientists. It's part of the game. One of the sure signs that an idea is bad is when it's proponents start whining about being persecuted instead of buckling down and producing better evidence.Larry Moran
October 24, 2015
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Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution, Larry. ID argues against blind watchmaker evolution having sole dominion and creative powers. I read the books you posted, plus many others. The problem is not one offers up a way to objectively test the claim that natural selection and drift produced the diversity of life. Sean Carroll and Neil Shubin are confident that changes in regulatory networks are sufficient to explain the differences in metazoans. Yet no one has taken fish embryos, for example, subjected them to rounds of targeted mutagenesis and had a fish-a-pod arise as a result. So the question is why would anyone accept Universal Common Descent without having some prior bias? What makes a human a human, Larry? What makes a chimp a chimp? Evolutionary biologists want us to believe we are the sum of our genome yet no one has ever tested that claim. The fact is, larry, both natural selection and drift are impotent with respect to creating complex biological functionality. If you want disease and deformities they are your mechanisms. Also the age of the earth depends on how it was formed. Without knowing that the best you can do is find the age of the materials that made it. Is the age of a log cabin the age of the trees or does it start from when the cabin was erected?Virgil Cain
October 24, 2015
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@Dionisio I followed the links but it wasn't clear to me what the questions were and which ones you want answered. Could you post ONE question here at a time? I'll try to answer, but first I need to know what kind of background you have. Can I assume that you understand basic evolutionary theory and that you accept common descent or do I have to begin by presenting the evidence that the Earth is about 4.5 billion yeas old and life began with very simple organisms over 3 billion years ago? Can I assume that you understand the basics of biochemistry and molecular biology and developmental gene regulation or do I have to explain that to you as well? Have you read any of the leading books that address your questions, like Sean Carrol's book "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" or Stephen Jay Gould's book "Ontogey and Phylogeny." How about "Wonderful Life"? The problem with explaining things to creationists is that I never know where to start. Sometimes their ignorance of science is so profound that I need to start way back at square one and that's tedious. Just look at the comments on this thread and on other recent posts. Clearly there are many of you who lack basic understanding of evolution in spite of the fact that you are vehemently opposed to evolution. You won't even believe a fellow ID proponent like Vincent Torley when he tries to enlighten you. Don't you see how that can be very frustrating?Larry Moran
October 24, 2015
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Larry Moran:
That’s not what we see. Instead the leading proponents of ID, and the leading attackers of evolution, are not scientists and they do not make valid scientific arguments based on solid evidence.
If this is a concern for you, are you then not also concerned that universities are adverse to anyone espousing an ID position, and that journals are also ill-disposed? What do you suggest doing to remedy the present situation so that biologists who view life through an ID prism are soon able to get degrees and publish papers?PaV
October 24, 2015
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Thanks for catching that typo, Mapou. I fixed ti.
And a sense of humor.Mung
October 24, 2015
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Dionisio @64
I don’t think that answering those and other follow-up questions would necessarily shutdown this website.
Perhaps I exaggerated in that sentence. What I meant is that by answering the questions, the professor could demonstrate his academic/scientific credentials while weakening the ID position tremendously.
But it definitely could provide to the mentioned professor and his comrades the credibility they all currently lack so badly.
Well, I would not say the professor lacks credibility, but answering the questions would strengthen it enormously.DTZ
October 24, 2015
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Mung: I’m pretty sure that Larry likes me. After all, what’s not to like? That's the attitude!Zachriel
October 24, 2015
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DTZ @ 46
Dear Professor Moran, I think I see your point, but perhaps a more effective way to prove it is to show the alleged ‘challenge’ one of their folks posted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/reality-check-courtesy-of-james-tour/#comment-582669 is not a challenge at all. The guy who wrote that comment admitted he’s not a scientist. It should be easy for someone with your academic credentials and scientific knowledge/experience to show there’s nothing challenging about their questions. Actually, if you do so, you may shutdown their website completely, or at least future visitors would see what’s going on. Wouldn’t this approach work better than engaging in non constructive arguments with the ID folks? Had I had a fraction of your scientific knowledge I would have shut up that guy who issued the alleged ‘challenge’ in the above link.
Regarding the link you posted @46, I don't think that answering those and other follow-up questions would necessarily shutdown this website. But it definitely could provide to the mentioned professor and his comrades the credibility they all currently lack so badly. However, better don't hold your breadth while waiting for the mentioned professor or anybody else to dare accepting my invitation to seriously explain things and answering questions. I don't expect that to occur anytime soon. They seem to lack what is required to do it.Dionisio
October 24, 2015
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I am confused about the foundation of Intelligent Design. I have, ever since I read Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" been under the impression that his thesis was that Natural Selection did not satisfy his requirements for evolution of species. His mousetrap theory should be well known to design proponents. His bottom line: Like mouse traps are useless before all the part are in place, the process of Natural Selection doesn't satisfy as an explanation of the origins of complex biological structures. Dembski followed the same track; his method was to invent mathematical arguments to prove that evolution beyond a certain level was impossible. It was acknowledged that mutations and selection are indeed functional and rsponsible for variation sithin species, but there would be a barrier against evolution beyond the boundary between species. It seemed like ID was the theory that intervention by an intelligent designer was required to explain the origins of species. But that is history. An unidentified designer as the generator of species has been replaced with claims about God as the designer.Cabal
October 23, 2015
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In defence of Prof Larry Moran and ID/YEC being sciency. I post on Prof morans blog and found it to be a better liberal conversation place. EVEN IF i'm dumped next week for dumbness and not contributing to a expected standard. I do but anyways its still a equable blog and rare. Prof moran is rare in being a Edolutionist , use that word, academic who says ID thinkers, some, do science. THIS IS never said in americ by evolutionists who reach audiences. ID/YEC should tip their gat to this accuracy and justice. Who else in the front lines says this on the other side? FIRTHER he is very strict about science accuracy for anybody, and in a youtube thing of his was likewise years ago, and so all the more its to be respected. Fair enough to say ID thinkers do bad science, means erroneous ,and is not a insult. Its a dumb insult to say ID thinkers don't do science as most say. Its an insult to say YEC doesn't do science, in its attacks on the other side alone AND in the videos here this ID guy DID attack YEC as not scientific. Can't complain about evolutionists error on this when they do it too. ID thinkers all do science and the ID proponents of ID thinkers also do science if they are carefully following the issues. YEC does science in its attacks on the other side and so does YEC proponents of YEC attacks. I include myself here. YEC is organized scientific creationism, mostly, and are careful. in fact they refused to publish my essay on marsupials very strongly and a wee bit more. They were wrong but it shows a high standard. A scientist is one who does science in drawing conclusions about nature. Its not about education degrees. UD writers are also scientists if applying science methodology. They all do . Science is about methodology and not accuracy in conclusions. Thats my defence.Robert Byers
October 23, 2015
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So Larry, why do hobbits & dwarves have furry toes while elves are hairless? Nothing to do with "survival of the fittest" and everything to do with design. Just saying. Some dance music for the Larry Party https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAYppolish
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran loves attention and that is what you provide him here; the deserved one and the undeserved one. I will leave it to myself and the ones with reason, what kind of attention Larry is really getting and which one he really deserves. I'm out.J-Mac
October 23, 2015
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I'm pretty sure that Larry likes me. After all, what's not to like?Mung
October 23, 2015
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Guys in the 50's, leave theology to the theologians, or I am cutting off the comments. No hatred worse than clashes over theology. And it's boring for the rest of us. Let's get back to organizing that party for Larry Moran, where the armadillo jumps out of the cake and throws blowout whistles and plays a mean kazoo.News
October 23, 2015
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Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine. — Rick Blaine
I am sure that was part of the designed script. :razz:Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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"Vy, you are obviously Catholic." Say what? "I abhor Catholic doctrine" You and me both but I doubt you do much as I do. "especially the trinity nonsense." Last time I checked, the KJV wasn't catholic. And the Godhead is not catholic doctrine.Vy
October 23, 2015
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Vy, you are obviously Catholic. I abhor Catholic doctrine, especially the trinity nonsense. This is the end of my participation in this discussion.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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"The word translated God here is the Hebrew word “elohim” which means lords (plural)" This is the Godhead (KJV), Trinity. "Besides, Yahweh acknowledged the existence of other elohim. He was jealous of the elohim (gods) of Babylon and Assyria and he chastised the elohim of Egypt during the time of Moses." I don't deny this. There are about 12 gods mentioned in the Bible. What I do deny is that there are other gods that are, well, gods. Just humans elevated to god status. "So Isaiah could not be saying what you think he’s saying. He was simply saying that there is no other Lord or Master greater than him. He’s the lord of lords." How so? I'm pretty sure "there are is no God besides me" is as clear as it could be. "I don’t remember saying there was something before Yahweh especially since this is not what I believe." I got this from your " Isaiah called him the “ancient of days”, meaning that, at one time, he was young. But only God’s physical body (yes, I believe that God has a physical body)" comment.Vy
October 23, 2015
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Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine. — Rick BlaineZachriel
October 23, 2015
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Vy: How exactly does the meeting of non-living, unconscious “things” have any similarity with two human beings going about their daily activities? We just explained that. Try reading it again. Why do you think it is called a chance encounter? Vy: If you’re going to the same place, there’s a good chance that you’ll meet. Yes, and two gas molecules can meet because (obviously) they are going to the same place. If they are coordinated motions, then it is not a chance encounter. If they are uncoordinated motions, then it is a chance encounter. Vy: Your analogy may make perfect sense to you but me thinks it commits the fallacy of false analogy. It's not an analogy. They are both examples of uncorrelated (random with respect to) their individual motions.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Vy:
Isaiah called him the “ancient of days”, meaning that, at one time, he was young.” Wow, that’s quite the assumption considering in Isaiah 44:6, it reads: “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
First off, this verse does not contradict what I wrote about Yahweh having been young. Being first also implies a beginning.
"And there is no God besides Me."
The word translated God here is the Hebrew word "elohim" which means lords (plural). Both David and Jesus taught us that we humans, are gods, i.e., elohim. Besides, Yahweh acknowledged the existence of other elohim. He was jealous of the elohim (gods) of Babylon and Assyria and he chastised the elohim of Egypt during the time of Moses. So Isaiah could not be saying what you think he's saying. He was simply saying that there is no other Lord or Master greater than him. He's the lord of lords.
There are other verses but you get the point, so according to what you’ve assumed, how exactly could there be anything before Him (the beginning)???
I don't remember saying there was something before Yahweh especially since this is not what I believe.
“But only God’s physical body (yes, I believe that God has a physical body) was designed, not his spirit.” Er, what? By God’s “physical body”, do you mean Jesus Christ?
Jesus's body was just an avatar, IMO. Jesus told us precisely where he was: "Before Abraham was, I am". I interpret this to mean that we live in a four-dimensional universe and that God's abode is not even in our 3-d slice of this universe.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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Vy, "Your analogy may make perfect sense to you but me thinks it commits the fallacy of false analogy." His analogy makes perfect sense to me too.bFast
October 23, 2015
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"While gas molecules move according to known laws of physics, a particular meeting of two gas molecules in space is largely a matter of chance. Their motions are uncorrelated (random with respect to) the possibility of their meeting. Similarly" How exactly does the meeting of non-living, unconscious "things" have any similarity with two human beings going about their daily activities? "two people have their own agendas, but if their motions are uncorrelated (random with respect to) the possibility of their meeting, we say that it was a chance meeting." If you're going to the same place, there's a good chance that you'll meet. It may be "random" (depending on how you look at it) but not random in the sense of evolution. Your analogy may make perfect sense to you but me thinks it commits the fallacy of false analogy.Vy
October 23, 2015
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"Isaiah called him the “ancient of days”, meaning that, at one time, he was young." Wow, that's quite the assumption considering in Isaiah 44:6, it reads:
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
And in Isaiah 48:12:
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
And in Revelation 22:13:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
There are other verses but you get the point, so according to what you've assumed, how exactly could there be anything before Him (the beginning)??? "But only God’s physical body (yes, I believe that God has a physical body) was designed, not his spirit." Er, what? By God's "physical body", do you mean Jesus Christ?Vy
October 23, 2015
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daveS:
You cannot escape design – resistance is futile.
One exception: the Designer is not designed!
I personally disagree that the original designer was not designed. Yahweh is the self-made God, the first among many other Gods (Elohim). Isaiah called him the "ancient of days", meaning that, at one time, he was young. But only God's physical body (yes, I believe that God has a physical body) was designed, not his spirit. Spirits can neither be created nor destroyed and this includes our own spirits. They just are. The entire physical universe was designed and created out of nothing over eons.Mapou
October 23, 2015
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Dear Professor Moran, I think I see your point, but perhaps a more effective way to prove it is to show the alleged 'challenge' one of their folks posted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/reality-check-courtesy-of-james-tour/#comment-582669 is not a challenge at all. The guy who wrote that comment admitted he's not a scientist. It should be easy for someone with your academic credentials and scientific knowledge/experience to show there's nothing challenging about their questions. Actually, if you do so, you may shutdown their website completely, or at least future visitors would see what's going on. Wouldn't this approach work better than engaging in non constructive arguments with the ID folks? Had I had a fraction of your scientific knowledge I would have shut up that guy who issued the alleged 'challenge' in the above link. Thank you.DTZ
October 23, 2015
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"One exception: the Designer is not designed!" Yep, God designed it that way. What part of God don't you understand? The same part that none of us understand. But most can understand design. Grasping "chance" as only the appearance of chance is a tad tougher. A Theistic thing:)ppolish
October 23, 2015
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Vy: So “How do two gas molecules meet?” is now an answer to my question? It's a point related to the discussion. While gas molecules move according to known laws of physics, a particular meeting of two gas molecules in space is largely a matter of chance. Their motions are uncorrelated (random with respect to) the possibility of their meeting. Similarly, two people have their own agendas, but if their motions are uncorrelated (random with respect to) the possibility of their meeting, we say that it was a chance meeting.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Moran: I suspect groovamos at #27 is irony deficient. People coming on here in the name of "science" somehow ending up in ad hominem mode. What a surprise, such bitterness, would have never thought it. Some of us are just OK pointing out the behavior, science aside for the time being.groovamos
October 23, 2015
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