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Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

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Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

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Comments
bFast: He promotes the non-Darwinian perspective that genetic drift (random mutations without natural selection) explains it all. That's false, as even a cursory look at his writings makes clear. "Natural selection is an important mechanism of evolution." — Larry Moran http://bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca/Evolution_by_Accident/Evolution_by_Accident.htmlZachriel
October 23, 2015
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bornagain, "should not your field of expertise, i.e. Darwinian evolution" You've got Larry Moran all wrong, he's not a Darwinist. He promotes the non-Darwinian perspective that genetic drift (random mutations without natural selection) explains it all. The fact that his position isn't "random mutations without natural selection" at all, but that it is random mutations which have little or no selective value (because natural selection has deleted all the bad ones) explains it all. Drift does explain some stuff*. Not much, certainly not ALL, nor even close to as much as Larry Moran proposes. * It may even be able to explain the origin of new species, but certainly not new body plans.bFast
October 23, 2015
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Dr. Moran writes:
The point I was making is that if ID wants to be taken seriously as science then it should be scientists who promote ID and scientists who make the scientific case against evolution. That’s not what we see. Instead the leading proponents of ID, and the leading attackers of evolution, are not scientists and they do not make valid scientific arguments based on solid evidence.
My guess is that the real scientists are busy doing their scientific work and don't have time for frivolous internet debates that generally accomplish nothing. For instance, Dr. Meyer does research and writes books to make his case. Other scientists are doing research as well.
Denyse O’Leary would like us to believe that she’s just reporting all the “scientific” evidence for ID but that’s a joke. She’s a “reporter” with an agenda and a strong opinion and that kind of reporting is not how science journalists are supposed to behave.
I see. And I suppose you feel the evolutionary science journalists do not have an agenda or a strong opinion, right? And that their kind of reporting IS how journalists are supposed to behave, right? That's what you are trying to say, right Dr. Moran? Got it! Journalists are supposed to be unbiased, but it is impossible in this area to remain unbiased because our worldview gives us all a bias. But seriously, Dr. Moran, do you really think the science journalists who report on science news - evolutionary science news that is - are really unbiased? Do you ever hear them ask hard questions of the scientists? Do you ever see them questioning the wacky just so stories or unfounded scientific claims? Do they ever challenge the claims and ask how they can really know these things? Don't they normally just swallow the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker and almost sensationalize it when they report it? Don't they normally exaggerate the findings a bit and make even stronger claims than the scientists themselves made? And I suppose that again that IS how they are supposed to behave, right? Actually, yes, I agree. That IS how they are supposed to behave. That's their job! It is what is expected of them. They are supposed to treat the papers/claims/hypotheses/etc. of these evolutionists as gospel truth. If they asked too many questions, they would be fired. That kind of thing is just not permitted in Darwinland. Everyone claims to be open and unbiased, but, to be honest, I don't see that. Personally, I'm glad that there are ID scientists who do not waste their time on these boards, but actually spend their time doing research and writing books.tjguy
October 23, 2015
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LM @ 4. Larry did not learn much from Larry Moran commits the genetic fallacy. That's a pity because it was such a teachable moment. Barry Arrington
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran writes at 3: "I apologize for making it appear as though I thought that Denyse O’Leary and Barry Arrington were Discovery Institute Fellows. That was not my intention and I have added an update to my blog post. I know full well that the Discovery Institute has low standards for accepting fellows but not that low." The beauty of this situation,Larry, is that YOU can feel at home here.News
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran, before you claim to be a 'scientist', and label anyone who does not believe in Darwinian evolution as a 'non-scientist', should not your field of expertise, i.e. Darwinian evolution, in fact be a science in the first place instead of being the unfalsifiable pseudo-science that it truly is?
"In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge
Whereas ID can be easily falsified by experiment, there simply is no experiment, no matter how much it contradicts Dawinian claims, that Darwinists will accept as a falsification for their theory:
It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk “The National Academy of Sciences has objected that intelligent design is not falsifiable, and I think that’s just the opposite of the truth. Intelligent design is very open to falsification. I claim, for example, that the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by natural selection; it needed to be deliberately intelligently designed. Well, all a scientist has to do to prove me wrong is to take a bacterium without a flagellum, or knock out the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium, go into his lab and grow that bug for a long time and see if it produces anything resembling a flagellum. If that happened, intelligent design, as I understand it, would be knocked out of the water. I certainly don’t expect it to happen, but it’s easily falsified by a series of such experiments. Now let’s turn that around and ask, How do we falsify the contention that natural selection produced the bacterial flagellum? If that same scientist went into the lab and knocked out the bacterial flagellum genes, grew the bacterium for a long time, and nothing much happened, well, he’d say maybe we didn’t start with the right bacterium, maybe we didn’t wait long enough, maybe we need a bigger population, and it would be very much more difficult to falsify the Darwinian hypothesis. I think the very opposite is true. I think intelligent design is easily testable, easily falsifiable, although it has not been falsified, and Darwinism is very resistant to being falsified. They can always claim something was not right.” - Dr Michael Behe
To reiterate, neo-Darwinism is not a rigid science in any meaningful sense of the term but is in fact a non-falsifiable Pseudo-Science that is on par with tea-leaf reading:
The primary reasons why Darwinism is a pseudo-science instead of a proper science are as such: 1. No Rigid Mathematical Basis (Demarcation/Falsification Criteria) to test against 2. No Demonstrated Empirical Basis 3. Random Mutation and Natural Selection are both grossly inadequate as ‘creative engines’ 4. Information is not reducible to a material basis, (in fact, in quantum teleportation experiments it is found that material ultimately reduces to an information basis) 5. Darwinism, per Imre Lakatos, is found to be a ‘degenerating programme’ where fundamental predictions are found to be false, and ‘theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” i.e. Darwinism hinders scientific progress by making fundamental false predictions, (i.e. falsely predicted Junk DNA, vestigial organs, etc..), that leads research in wrong directions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaPcK-KCppBztIJmXUBXTvZTZ5lHV4Qg_pnzmvVL2Qw/edit
bornagain
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran at 4 knows perfectly well that the vast majority of people shilling for Darwin or "evolution" in the media are not scientists. And there is no reason why they should be. Their public isn't asking for that; it just wants to be reassured that schoolbook Darwinism is still true in a world where everything else is changing. As if.News
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran:
The point I was making is that if ID wants to be taken seriously as science then it should be scientists who promote ID and scientists who make the scientific case against evolution.
ID is not anti-evolution so why would we want to make a case against it?
Instead the leading proponents of ID, and the leading attackers of evolution, are not scientists and they do not make valid scientific arguments based on solid evidence.
LoL! YOU can't make a scientific case for unguided evolution, Larry. THAT is the point- not one scientist can make a positive case for unguided evolution. It is an untestable position. Larry, you are an evo with an agenda and a strong opinion and that is not how a scientist should behave. Larry Moran, totally unaware of himself.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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The point I was making is that if ID wants to be taken seriously as science then it should be scientists who promote ID and scientists who make the scientific case against evolution. That's not what we see. Instead the leading proponents of ID, and the leading attackers of evolution, are not scientists and they do not make valid scientific arguments based on solid evidence. Denyse O'Leary would like us to believe that she's just reporting all the "scientific" evidence for ID but that's a joke. She's a "reporter" with an agenda and a strong opinion and that kind of reporting is not how science journalists are supposed to behave.Larry Moran
October 23, 2015
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I apologize for making it appear as though I thought that Denyse O'Leary and Barry Arrington were Discovery Institute Fellows. That was not my intention and I have added an update to my blog post. I know full well that the Discovery Institute has low standards for accepting fellows but not that low.Larry Moran
October 23, 2015
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Larry Moran is just upset because ID exists due to the total failure of his position to find scientific support. He is just a big baby who can't get his way.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.
Yes, this sort of thing happens constantly in these discussions. I've been told many times what "I want" (wrongly) by others who know very little about me. Probably I've done the same myself. Best just to stick to the facts and not speculate about motives IMO. Edit: A mind-reader appears, right on schedule. See post #2daveS
October 23, 2015
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