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Mind and emergentism

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Evolutionists believe that mind can rise from matter. From atoms configured into molecules, configured into cells, configured into tissues, configured into a brain, mind can rise. Their molecules-to-man evolution story is in fact the narrative of the emergency of mind from matter. Here, in a sense, evolutionism and artificial intelligence (AI) meet in developing a fallacious more-from-less scenario.

For example, an evolutionist says:

I think that “larger objects” have properties not possessed by their parts. These properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear.

According to this evolutionist naturalistic conception, a “larger object” is simply a specific configuration of atoms, enough large to develop the emergent properties. The belief that properties as those listed in the quote can spontaneously emerge from large configurations of atoms is called “emergentism”. Practically we could consider “emergentism” as an alias of “evolutionism”.

The “larger object” can be also the brain, filled with neural networks, where processes and states happen as effects of algorithms. So the “emergentism” expressed above in terms of hardware – so to speak – can also be expressed in terms of software. It is exactly what, for example, Roger Penrose does:

In my opinion, it is conceivable that in an algorithm there is a threshold of complication beyond which the algorithm shows mental qualities. [The Emperor’s New Mind, chap.1]

Let’s see, in simplest terms, why mind is neither a configuration of atoms, nor a process or algorithm in the organism. It is common experience that mind recognizes “purposes, designs, moral principles, beauty, love, anger, and fear”. What recognizes configurations, states, processes is not one of such configurations, states, processes. The “recognizer” cannot emerge from what it recognizes. The binary relation between recognizer and recognized cannot be reduced to a single point. Example: what sees is different from what is seen; the eye cannot see itself. Analogously mind, who recognizes what happens in the brain, is different from what happens. Mind cannot arise, as emergent property, from the neural processes it sees. This a matter of principle.

Against this reasoning, emergentism doesn’t help evolutionists. It is useless to say that “systems may have properties not possessed by their parts”. Depending from the specific system and its parts, a system can have, yes, certain additional properties, but not whatsoever properties. Natural example: while a single water molecule doesn’t form ice crystals, a set of water molecules shows the emergent property of forming ice crystals, at a certain temperature. But no set of water molecules shows, say, the emergent property of self-inflaming. The cause of all that is the physical laws. Artificial example: an airplane has the property of flying, which its parts have not, but an airplane cannot have the property, say, of creating moral laws from thin air. What allows an airplane to fly is its intelligent design (ID). It is ID the cause adding to the parts of the airplane the capacity to fly by mean of an apt assembly (beyond obviously having designed the parts themselves).

So the controversy is not if systems can have properties not possessed by their parts. They can have some. In general, the controversy is about what properties a specific system and parts can develop and what causes the arise of such properties. Specifically, I claim that human mind is not a property emerging from biological or artificial hardware configurations or software processes when their complication become large enough. And I claim that, much less, mind can be the result of an unguided material process, as cause. It is, yes, possible to fabricate artificial neural networks (“artificial brains”) but it is impossible to artificially create a human mind from chemicals in the lab. Mind is not a mere by-product of matter.

Thus, in the quote cited at the beginning, the problem is not the first statement “larger objects have properties not possessed by their parts”, rather the second one: “these properties include the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. If the “larger object” is the brain, or even an entire organism, its emergent properties do not include “the capacity to have purposes, designs…”. Mind doesn’t arise bottom-up. Mind overarches body, brain and matter.

Analogously, to say that mind is a property of the brain, is just defective. It would change nothing to say that mind is a property of the whole organism. In any case mind is not simply a property or attribute of large systems. Because a property of a thing cannot be the recognizer of the thing and its properties. Example, a banana has the property of being yellow. The property of being yellow cannot recognize the banana and its properties.

As always the problem is a priori materialism, which flattens any hierarchy. Between mind and matter there is an ontological hierarchy. Every man daily experiments this hierarchy, by using his mind to dominate matter. Unfortunately evolutionists forget this direct scientific experience to believe a fully unsubstantiated and biased faith, which materialism is.

Comments
nightlight
The “consciousness” (as the fact of inner experience) has absolutely no connection with presently known laws of matter-energy or anything logically deducible from them.
Well, you keep asserting this. It's what I am questioning. I think it has. I think the main problem in seeing it is conceptual. For example there is a huge and extremely well supported body of scientific evidence on the neural substrates of attention. Attention is an extremely closely related concept to consciousness. I think if we thought of consciousness as a general case of attention, the idea that it cannot be connected with the known laws of matter-energy would fade like mist in the morning, leaving a perfectly recognisable concept of consciousness as we experience it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Jerad, that was a personality in reponse to a substantial point. You are playing precisely the emotional manipulation one upmanship game that you so despise when WJM even suggests resorting to it in part. And, you have not responded to the substantial point in any cogent way. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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As far as the authority of present natural science goes, when you inject “consciousness” in support of your thesis you may as well inject nature spirits or ghosts of the deceased since they all have the same (null) relation to the known laws of matter-energy and anything deducible from them.
I have a pretty hard time accepting that life is logically deducible from the known laws of matter-energy, in any sense of "logically deducible" I can recognize. So is biology a proto-science, in your sense? Or, as seems more plausible to me, are you inadvertently using physics as a Procrustean bed, and lopping off as less-than-fully-real anything that doesn't fit -- such as life and consciousness?Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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I am not disagreeing with existence of consciousness as the empirical fact of (my) personal experience. The problem is when someone, you or Stephen Meyer or anyone else, injects "consciousness" into discussion with pretense of having authority of natural science behind their statements. The "consciousness" (as the fact of inner experience) has absolutely no connection with presently known laws of matter-energy or anything logically deducible from them. As far as the authority of present natural science goes, when you inject "consciousness" in support of your thesis you may as well inject nature spirits or ghosts of the deceased since they all have the same (null) relation to the known laws of matter-energy and anything deducible from them.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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Well, I'm calling into question your concept of consciousness. I think the idea that "As far as (M) is concerned, there could be a zombie, empty inside, programmed to say “red” when certain photons strike its sensors. The model space of natural science cannot tell the difference between zombie system and experiencing system." is incorrect. That was the point I was making. That is not to deny that consciousness exists. Rather it is to think of it as a process, not a variable.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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@56 Where is the “euphemism”? Clearly I am using proxy measures, but all measures are proxy to some degree. There is nothing in model space (M) of natural science that models what is like to see red, the inner experience of redness. As far as (M) is concerned, there could be a zombie, empty inside, programmed to say "red" when certain photons strike its sensors. The model space of natural science cannot tell the difference between zombie system and experiencing system. Hence, you cannot make statements about "consciousness" and claim them as output/result of natural science (of its "scientific statement" generating component (M)) as you seemed to do earlier. They're merely informal verbal conventions or shorthands within certain fields of human activity (psychology, law, philosophy, literature) without any connection to model space (M) of natural science, to the laws of matter-energy and anything algorithmically or logically deducible from them. Within the model space (M) of natural science, you can remove term "consciousness" altogether without any effect on any empirically falsifiable statement generated by (M). Hence, it is a meaningless term within natural science and one can't use it to scientifically argue that it is causative or that it affects anything or that is affected by anything (actions or decisions or to serve as the "creative force" of the intelligent agency imagined by Stephen Meyer, etc). All such statements are merely informal story telling, poetry, philosophizing, personal convictions, mnemonic devices... with no authority of present natural science behind them. Hence, one can't bludgeon opponents in a discussion by invoking consciousness as a scientific term since your stories about it are as scientifically (non)authoritative as any other.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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Or is it that you imagine that there really are good solutions from a physicalist perspective to the problem of mind out of live meat?
I think that "the problem of mind out of live meat" is the wrong way of thinking about the problem. "Meat" is how we usually refer to the parts of an animal once it is dead, no longer alive, and so no longer minded. Whereas a living animal is a minded animal (usually). The relation between a mind and a living animal is not a real relation, because it is not a real distinction -- it does not make sense to treat them as separate entities, even notionally. Some cognitive scientists like to say that "the mind is what the brain does". I would prefer to say that "the mind is what the living animal in its environment does". So when you say that
there is no real answer to moving from pulses in millivolts triggering others in a cascade and actual meaningful logical inference?
I completely agree that that's true, but not for the reasons you seem to be putting forth in support of it. Once the living animal has been separated into its constituent parts, on the one hand, and its behavior has been hypostatized into something independent of it, then not even all the king's horses and all the king's men can put Humpty-Dumpty back together together again. Likewise, Haldane has misconceived the real problem. When he says,
“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
he is completely right, but right in a way that doesn't matter for the version of liberal naturalism I am defending. (Incidentally, I don't think that the Churchlands are liberal naturalists, and I don't defend their views in all particulars -- I just don't think that Plantinga has done justice to what Churchland is actually saying.) The content of our beliefs and the correctness of our inferences depends on inferential semantics and normative pragmatics that constitute the dimensions of the embodied and social space of reasons. And that is irreducible to anything that could be described in the vocabulary of physical and chemical regularities. So in that sense I quite agree with Haldane. (I was initially persuaded of this general view when I read Frege and Husserl in graduate school, and their criticisms of psychologism sparked the two great revolutions of early 20th-century philosophy -- analytic philosophy and phenomenology, respectively. So the idea at work in Haldane's remark is not new to me.) The (to me) much more interesting question is whether their antipsychologism can be accommodated within a more generous or relaxed conception of naturalism. I think that Wittgenstein showed us how to do with Frege, by treating inferential rules as social norms, and that Merleau-Ponty showed us how to do this with Husserl, by treating intentional content as expressive of bodily comportments. Both Wittgenstein and Merleau-Ponty have been subjected to subsequent criticisms and corrections since then. Another way of putting it would be to say that (1) the problem of the normative and the natural is the correctly posed version of the problem that is incorrectly posed as the problem of the mind and the body; (2) the problem of the normative and the natural is solved by recognizing (a) the normative as essentially social, historical, and linguistic and (b) the natural as essentially dynamic and emergentistic. So I think we're at a point now that we can give a mostly satisfactory account of normativity and rationality that doesn't reduce the normative to the natural (on pains of Hume's Guillotine) and which doesn't require positing supernatural entities in order to account for intentional content. (I say "mostly" because if existing accounts were completely satisfactory, there would be no further contribution for me to make!)Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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GEM, comment 41:
You know a lot better than you speak, but I suppose it is fun to play at snippy rhetoric games. Just remember, people are getting hurt, badly, because of those games. And, we are observing what you are doing and are taking due note. KF PS: The hate and slander fest and its consequences are plain for anyone willing to see. But then, a lot of good Germans must have found a lot of reasons to explain away the smell of the smoke from the crematoriums.
GEM, comment 49:
I have already cited this in 17, right next to issues of marxists being class conditioned, freudians being potty trained and Skinnerians being rats in their own mazes too. Not to mention, Crick’s thoughts being the electrochemistry of his neurons too. Dismissive and denigratory quips are not going to make the issue go away. In that context, KN forgets that I just happen to be black, so I know what me ole gramps used to say on bitter experience (starting with having to take over his family when a modern Potiphar’s wife poisoned his dad, my great grandfather for pulling a Joseph on her, leaving him invalided for the rest of his days, gramps being all of 12 at the time): “Black man, every man hand de ‘gainst you.” When the enmity, slander and hate fests based on silly conspiracies and foolish fancies are real, it ain’t paranoia. And I have seen racism, anti-Christian bigotry and materialist bigotry in action, and they are all horses from the same stables. Shame on you.
GEM, comment 54:
KN: Why don’t you just come out and say your implied accusation plainly, that this is quoting out of context and distortive of meaning? Or is it that you imagine that there really are good solutions from a physicalist perspective to the problem of mind out of live meat? Before we go any further, why did you not do the simple thing and lay out the standard plain obvious and manifestly successful answer instead of trying subtle ad homs? Could it just possibly be that — spermologos in your view or no — I HAVE put my finger on a real sore-spot conundrum and there is no real answer to moving from pulses in millivolts triggering others in a cascade and actual meaningful logical inference? Where, you seem to forget classic marxists are by definition materialists so I have a few dozen years experience of dealing with materialism. And BTW hardware feedback or algorithmic loops and lags while they have interesting properties do not bridge the gap I just pointed to, even when we move to the body as a whole. We are needing to bridge entire categories of entities, and emergence boils down, in simple terms to poof voila, materialist magic step. KF
Someone plainly needs to calm down, back off and stop embarrassing himself. And probably get some much needed rest.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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This isn't making a lot of sense to me, nightlight. I can make predictive models regarding the relationship between consciousness and brain activity, and test those models against actual data. Where is the "euphemism"? Clearly I am using proxy measures, but all measures are proxy to some degree.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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@48 Elizabeth B Liddle
Sorry, nightlight, I've lost you. What is Consciousness E_C? And while I thought I understood you earlier, it is probable that I didn't. As I see it, we can investigate consciousness - how it works and so on - by fitting a mathematical model to empirical data.
Well, to make a fit or correspondence between the formalism or model space (M) and the empirical space (E) of natural science, you need some corresponding elements in the two realms to be compared with each other (the correspondence is established by a separate algorithmic component (OP), which is the operational rules of the given science). For example, if your formula from (M) computes statement S = "M_X will have velocity 20 m/s" then in order to verify prediction, there must be some empirical fact (e.g. reading on some instruments or their computer output) "object E_X has 20 m/s" mapping via OP to the S="Object M_X has velocity 20 m/s". The object E_X is the actual object, a ball at the bottom of the hill, while object M_X is a formal element of (M) (a symbol on paper, a variable or a C++ object in a computer program) corresponding via (OP) rules to the real object (or class of objects) E_X. The same procedure is needed when considering consciousness -- there is empirical fact of consciousness E_C (directly observable by most of us). In order for natural science to model this empirical fact E_C, its model space (M) needs a corresponding element M_C as well as some algorithmic or formal glue that connects M_C to the rest of (M), to the laws of matter-energy and their deducible consequences. The problem is that present natural science doesn't have such algorithmically effective element M_C. Instead, the model space (M) of natural science has only an empty, sterile label M_C which is there all by itself, disconnected from the rest of (M), algorithmically producing nothing else in M_C and being produced algorithimcally by nothing else from (M). In effect, M_C (the consciousness as a term of natural science) is presently merely a euphemism for a hole or gap in (M), like medical diagnosis which in the absence of understanding of some disease merely restates the main symptom in Latin.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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KN: Why don't you just come out and say your implied accusation plainly, that this is quoting out of context and distortive of meaning? Or is it that you imagine that there really are good solutions from a physicalist perspective to the problem of mind out of live meat? Before we go any further, why did you not do the simple thing and lay out the standard plain obvious and manifestly successful answer instead of trying subtle ad homs? Could it just possibly be that -- spermologos in your view or no -- I HAVE put my finger on a real sore-spot conundrum and there is no real answer to moving from pulses in millivolts triggering others in a cascade and actual meaningful logical inference? Where, you seem to forget classic marxists are by definition materialists so I have a few dozen years experience of dealing with materialism. And BTW hardware feedback or algorithmic loops and lags while they have interesting properties do not bridge the gap I just pointed to, even when we move to the body as a whole. We are needing to bridge entire categories of entities, and emergence boils down, in simple terms to poof voila, materialist magic step. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Do I understand you correctly that you seek to conflate mind and body, form and parts? And is it because of this leaning that you are attracted to terms like ‘the lived-body’, ‘the body-mind’, the ‘embodied-mind’ and so on?
Well, yes. Except, of course, that from my perspective, it's not a 'conflation' -- I think that the very division into "mind" and "body" is a mistake, and I'm trying to correct that mistake. As were Dewey and Merleau-Ponty, and many others, in whose footsteps I'm following. But, yes, what looks like undoing an invalid distinction from my perspective will look like conflating a valid distinction from yours.
And are you suggesting that this is merely a cultural matter?
Yes, I think that the very idea of "the mind/body dualism" is produced by specific features of Western intellectual tradition, in its social and political contexts. For example, Descartes' Real Distinction between res extensa and res cogitans is an attempt to both replace Thomistic theology with Descartes' own neo-Augustinian theology and show that neo-Augustinian theological metaphysics is compatible with, and indeed grounds, mechanistic and mathematical physics.
Are you instructing your fingers when you are typing or is it the other way around? Are you charge in charge of your limbs or are your limbs telling you what to do?
Under ideal conditions, when things go maximally smoothly, I don't instruct my fingers or limbs to do anything -- I engage with the world by means of my fingers (when typing), or by means of my legs (when walking), by means of my eyes when actively looking, etc. I don't send them an order; I am at one with my body when absorbed in the skilled coping of being in the world. It's when the body-parts are recalcitrant -- e.g. when a leg falls asleep -- that I have to treat it as an object, something over which I must somehow exert control.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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Liz #44 How long did it take you to come up with that answer? I don't know where to begin. You seem to miss the whole point. Obviously your English is far superior to mine, but I'm convinced that you use your words very inaccurately.Box
September 19, 2013
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PPPS: Hasker in The Emergent Self (Cornell University Press, 2001), from p 64 on is also helpful, cf. here. No, this is not some paranoid delusional half mad spermologos on a blog somewhere. (Though from Ac 17, being viewed as this puts me in some pretty impressive company) It is a serious issue, and one that needs to be frankly and fairly faced.kairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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KN #39 Do I understand you correctly that you seek to conflate mind and body, form and parts? And is it because of this leaning that you are attracted to terms like ‘the lived-body’, ‘the body-mind’, the ‘embodied-mind’ and so on? And are you suggesting that this is merely a cultural matter? If so, can you answer a simple analytical question: Are you instructing your fingers when you are typing or is it the other way around? Are you charge in charge of your limbs or are your limbs telling you what to do?Box
September 19, 2013
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PS: Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
I have already cited this in 17, right next to issues of marxists being class conditioned, freudians being potty trained and Skinnerians being rats in their own mazes too. Not to mention, Crick's thoughts being the electrochemistry of his neurons too. Dismissive and denigratory quips are not going to make the issue go away. In that context, KN forgets that I just happen to be black, so I know what me ole gramps used to say on bitter experience (starting with having to take over his family when a modern Potiphar's wife poisoned his dad, my great grandfather for pulling a Joseph on her, leaving him invalided for the rest of his days, gramps being all of 12 at the time): "Black man, every man hand de 'gainst you." When the enmity, slander and hate fests based on silly conspiracies and foolish fancies are real, it ain't paranoia. And I have seen racism, anti-Christian bigotry and materialist bigotry in action, and they are all horses from the same stables. Shame on you.kairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Sorry, nightlight, I've lost you. What is Consciousness E_C? And while I thought I understood you earlier, it is probable that I didn't. As I see it, we can investigate consciousness - how it works and so on - by fitting a mathematical model to empirical data. And those empirical data could be reports of experiences (literally "press a button when you are aware of having a thought"), asking people to meditate, and then not, or present them with stimuli of different qualities, plus contemporaneous data from the scanner. And you set up a model that relates to behavioural data with the scanner data. Do any of those bits correspond to anything like your M?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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If you took the time to actually read Churchland's article, and not the snippet that Plantinga quotes, we could have a conversation. And who you cut your eyeteeth on is of no interest or relevance to me whatsoever.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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F/N: Onlookers, let me cite Patricia Churchland thru Alvin Plantinga, as just one example of the issue of self-referential incoherence I have been pointing out:
Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in . . . feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [[Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is [[ --> let's try, from Aristotle in Metaphysics, 1011b: "that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not" . . . ], definitely takes the hindmost. (Plantinga also adds this from Darwin: "the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?")
And the problems of emergentism and supervenience come out quite plainly in this, from Reppert:
let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
KN and EL seem to forget I cut my eyeteeth on Marxists. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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@38 Elizabeth B Liddle
Well, my response is that, firstly, I'd say that consciousness IS observable indirectly...
That's not the problem. Consciousness E_C is an element of (E) (empirical realm), as anyone can easily verify. The problem is that model space (M) lacks the corresponding element M_C that connects constructively/algorithmically to the rest of (M), the lawas of matter-energy and their deducible consequences. There is no algorithm that lets you deduce/compute existence or presence of M_C when some other elements of (M), M1, M2, M3,... are in some specific relation. (Handwaving is not an algorithmic connection.) If one looks at component (M) as a computer program with its variables and code, then M_C is a variable that is never accessed within the rest of the program (M) either as input or output variable. It doesn't connect to any laws of matter-energy or any of their consequences. Hence M_C is orphanned variable, empty label. If you optimize it away, out of (M), the program (M) will run exactly as before, producing exactly the same outputs (scientific predictions). Some extreme mechanistic materialists, such as Daniel Dennett, Susan Blackmore and numerous cognitive scientists, realaze the problem with such ineffective, orphanned element M_C (Occam's razor) and have "solved" it by denying existence of E_C altogether i.e. according to this solution, the directly experienced consciousness doesn't exist either, it is an "illusion" hence there is no need for M_C (but then what element of M corresponds to this so-called "illusion"?). A more honest first step toward solution is to acknowledge first that (M) of the present natural science is incomplete, lacking algorithmically effective element M_C that corresponds to the empirical element E_C.nightlight
September 19, 2013
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Box, it's only a problem if you assume that a whole is not different from its parts, or, like niwrad, that a thing cannot act on itself (or part of itself). I don't think this is a valid assumption. I think it is perfectly sensible to consider my fingers as part of me, and that I instruct my fingers to do things. It's how we tend to talk, and I think it's perfectly good model.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Right -- because undermining the illegitimate privilege of patriarchy, heterosexism, and authoritarian religion is exactly like genocide.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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KN: yes, it does help I think, KN. Will think on what you say.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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KN: You know a lot better than you speak, but I suppose it is fun to play at snippy rhetoric games. Just remember, people are getting hurt, badly, because of those games. And, we are observing what you are doing and are taking due note. KF PS: The hate and slander fest and its consequences are plain for anyone willing to see. But then, a lot of good Germans must have found a lot of reasons to explain away the smell of the smoke from the crematoriums.kairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Liz, the following 2 quotes from #36 tell me that you make a distinction between consciousness and parts of the system:
Liz: So yes I instruct my fingers what to type (although occasionally they seem to have “a mind of their own”). Liz: The form is instructing the parts.
However the next sentence by you is contradicting the 2 quotes above:
Liz: I’m defining I as the whole system-organism.
The problem is that if you conflate consciousness with fingers, if they are both part of the I, if the I is not separate from fingers (and other parts of the system), then the sentence “I instruct my fingers” is meaningless. So one cannot conflate consciousness with the whole system-organism and state that one is in control of fingers, legs etc.Box
September 19, 2013
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Lizzie, Maybe this will help, a bit: I would define a human person as an certain of animal that has acquired a culture (an enculterated animal) -- with the further caveat that normal human infants are non-encultured but 'enculturable'. (The degree to which non-human hominoids are also enculturable is a major focus of great-ape research.) So rather than talk about "consciousness" or about "mind," which encourages the relapse into dualism, we should talk about conscious acts or states of the human person, or of the non-human animal -- likewise for mental acts or states, and so on. For emergentism to be wholly viable, one would need to avoid relapse to terms that are only fully intelligible within a hylomorphic, dualistic, or materialistic metaphysics -- while still being able to translate (more or less) into those other vocabularies. This will involve some creative license; Dewey writes of "body-mind" and Merleau-Ponty of "the lived body". Varela, Thompson, and Rosch wrote of "the embodied mind," which I find somewhat confusing since it invites comparison with "disembodied minds". (Hanna argues that disembodied minds are logically possible but metaphysically impossible, but this involves technical distinctions between kinds of modality that I find hard to fully grasp.) Plus you have all the 4E stuff -- mind as extended, embodied, embedded, and enacted -- which takes non-dualism in really interesting directions, both conceptual and empirical, by synthesizing phenomenology and neuroscience. The thing to avoid doing is pouring new wine into old skins.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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nightlight:
As a theoretical physicist I may be biased a bit for not seeing psychiatry and psychology as natural sciences but as proto-sciences, where spirit entities (such as consciousness) mingle with empirically contentful scientific concepts and methods. Ancient physics, chemistry and astronomy used to have similar character before maturing into genuine natural sciences over the last few centuries.
heh. OK, I can see where you are coming from. Actually I work a lot with physicists (my husband, a psychiatrist, did his PhD in physics) because of neuroimaging, and indeed with mathematicians. I'd say the really big advances over the last decade in understanding the brain have been due to clever mathematical techniques. And they are getting cleverer all the time.
Regarding consciousness, there is nothing natural science can say beyond what can be stated in algorithmic language without invoking empirically inaccessible entities (spirits or consciousness). Note that this is epistemological, not ontological statement i.e. consciousness certainly exists, but that element doesn’t do anything at all within the formal (algorithmic) framework of the present natural science.
I don't think that consciousness is "empirically inaccessible". Sure we can't observe it directly, but that is true of many things (all, in some sense) that we study empirically. Practically speaking we can do it by asking people things, or getting them to do tasks while we measure some proxy for neural activity. I'd say the big difference between your kind of empirical science and mine is the size of the error bars. We have way more unmodelled factors.
Regarding the “algorithmic framework” term, a natural science requires three basic components: (M) Model space (postulates plus formalism/algorithms; this is a generator of statements by the science from postulates using rules of logic) (E) Empirical facts (direct or instrument observations) (OP) Operational rules (algorithms) which map between elements and outputs of (M) and elements of (E).
Yes, and so do we. Although I'm not quite clear on OP - I'd have subsumed them under the Model space, and I see you have algorithms under M as well. But essentially we have mathematical models and we have empirical data, and we parameterise the models to optimise the fit to the data.
Hence, what I am saying is that consciousness is not a part of (M) i.e. there is no formal C element of (M) that generates anything which can be mapped via (OP) to/from some empirical facts from (E). A mere sound of voice saying “I am conscious now” can be produced and modeled within (M) purely via interplay of matter-energy laws without invoking mysterious C element of (M). The C element is thus algorithmically ineffective, it doesn’t produce anything (other than in poetic or informal sense, as a personal heuristics). Since consciousness (e.g. qualia) is part of (E), this means that model space (M) of present natural science is incomplete.
Well, my response is that, firstly, I'd say that consciousness IS observable indirectly, and secondly, that this is so because I think that what we often think of as "consciousness" is rather incoherent - if we think of conciousness as something we do ("are conscious of something") rather than as some unmodelled independent factor, then it fits just fine into model space. Some people, of course, think that this is cheating - that conciousness isn't something we do, but something we have. That gets on to philosophical ground, and I'm not a philosopher, but I think this is fallacious. I think that conceiving of consciousness as something we do ticks all the boxes we want it to tick, yet remains an empirically tractable concept.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle I mean, the operator and the operated cannot be exactly the same identical thing. A la Aristotle, a same thing cannot be in act and in potency in the same time. This principle avoids real ontological circularity, and in the same time opens the way to hierarchy. The examples you offer, which seem to disprove the principle, are all apparent cases of circularity of X on X, because, if we analyze well the left X and the right X, we discover that they different after all. But, also if I like to discuss with you, I am afraid the readers are getting bored about it. I would only remember why the principle of non circularity is important here. It allows us to somehow decouple mind and body, where the former is seen as sort of meta-entity compared to the latter, and, as such, not reducible to it.niwrad
September 19, 2013
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Box, I am saying that I am in charge (most of the time). If that means "downward" for you, fine. And I'm defining I as the whole system-organism. So yes I instruct my fingers what to type (although occasionally they seem to have "a mind of their own"). The form is instructing the parts. And I appreciate your posts! I do indeed care for this kind of analysis, but it's important to be clear about what we mean by terms, because so much of the problem IMO lies in what we actually mean when we use words like "I" and "downward" and so on.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Liz: I don’t even know what “downward causal power” means. We say something causes an event if it wouldn’t have happened without that thing, or, possibly, a substitute thing. Most events have multiple causes, of course.
By ‘downward causation’ I mean causation acting on a system from above.- the opposite of upward (bottom-up) causation. So not the fermions and bosons are at the beginning (behind the steering wheel) of causal chains leading to actions of an organism, but instead ‘consciousness’ is telling the system where to go and what to do. ‘Hierarchal causation’ if you like. Your position includes, as I understand it, downward causation, hence my question:
Box: How can a property have downward causal power? How can consciousness, as a property of a complex configuration the brain, overarch / alter /determine the very thing on which its existence depends without undermining its own existence?
Liz: But I don’t think that it is sensible to talk of “consciousness” having “causal power”.
What you are you actually saying here? No causal power for consciousness? Are you telling your legs where to go? Are you in charge or is it the other way around? Does your 'I' instruct your fingers what to type or do your fingers have a mind of their own? Again: who is in charge? Downward or upward causation, which is it? Are the parts telling the form (consciousness) what to do? Or is the form overarching and instructing the parts? I’ve noticed that you don’t care much for this kind of analyzes, but I believe it’s necessary in order to get some clarity; like Niwrad explained in #26. Remember Plato’s body / soul distinction.Box
September 19, 2013
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