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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
LH:
their surety being an artifact of preferred belief rather than actual logical reasoning.
You wrote:
Defining A as equal to A is defining A as equal to A; the proposition is not fallible . . .
Was your surety an artifact of preferred belief, or was it a product of actual logical reasoning?Barry Arrington
September 15, 2015
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To me it reeks of the Law of Identity, and I want nothing to do with it. Probably wise.Learned Hand
September 15, 2015
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Learned Hand: Logic is not a democracy. Is that supposed to be an obvious self-evident truth? To me it reeks of the Law of Identity, and I want nothing to do with it.Mung
September 15, 2015
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LH:
Odd how the people shrieking about how easy it is to exclude error don’t seem to be able to identify how it’s actually done.
Why don't you tell us how you did it when you wrote:
Defining A as equal to A is defining A as equal to A; the proposition is not fallible . . .
Barry Arrington
September 15, 2015
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Anytime one can not say for sure that they are not Mount Everest; they should really take a step back and reconsider the foundations of their arguments. So what's the logical process for knowing, without even the technical possibility of error, that you aren't? Odd how the people shrieking about how easy it is to exclude error don't seem to be able to identify how it's actually done. Which is, of course, consistent with their surety being an artifact of preferred belief rather than actual logical reasoning. Knowledge and argumentation are certainly a personal endeavor and you might find you have a fairly solid argument. But when you have 1% (probably less) of the population trying to convince the other 99% they can’t be sure they are not Mount Everest, its a losing cause. The 1% should move on to other, more important societal issues, if they can. Logic is not a democracy.Learned Hand
September 15, 2015
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Hi Everyone, this has been a fascinating thread. The back and forth is like watching a tennis match, but also like going to school at same time. Its like taking an introductory logic course. I am a casual observer in the sense that I have very little training in formal logic or physical (or metaphysical) sciences. But I don't consider my self a moron either. I am having a fairly successful business career, have an advance business degree from a decent university, have considered and debated the big issues of life, and have made a decent go of things. I admire the effort and knowledge of people in this thred as they make their case for their positions. But as a casual observer, I do think ES and LH are not doing well in the logic/epistemology debate. Anytime one can not say for sure that they are not Mount Everest; they should really take a step back and reconsider the foundations of their arguments. Knowledge and argumentation are certainly a personal endeavor and you might find you have a fairly solid argument. But when you have 1% (probably less) of the population trying to convince the other 99% they can't be sure they are not Mount Everest, its a losing cause. The 1% should move on to other, more important societal issues, if they can. Justinjuwilker
September 15, 2015
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@Learned Hand,
Defining A as equal to A is defining A as equal to A; the proposition is not fallible if the only metric is its own definition. The reasoning process behind creating the definition, and understanding its implications, is fallible.
This a very nice, succinct articulation of my position on this.
Can you answer Popperian’s question above? How do you have access, infallibly, to objective moral propositions?
Would like to see him answer this as well.eigenstate
September 14, 2015
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BA @ 253, Ever eager to demand answers, ever churlish about providing your own. Defining A as equal to A is defining A as equal to A; the proposition is not fallible if the only metric is its own definition. The reasoning process behind creating the definition, and understanding its implications, is fallible. Can you answer Popperian’s question above? How do you have access, infallibly, to objective moral propositions?Learned Hand
September 14, 2015
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I wrote:
Note that I’m still waiting for Barry to explain how he has infallibly identified an infallible source of moral principles and infallibly interpreted that source, in practice. No such explanation has been provided.
Mung:
So?
He might feel obliged to make moral choices, but that does not actually give him access to what moral choices to make. I wrote:
As such, when actually faced with a moral problem, it’s unclear how Barry has any other recource than to conjecture solutions to moral problems and criticize them, in practice.
Mung:
So?
So, this is effectively no different than what one would do if they did not believe in an infallible, objective morality. To quote from the referenced article....
I’ll tell you what really happened. You witnessed a dress rehearsal. The real ex cathedra ceremony was on the following day. In order not to make the declaration a day early, they substituted for the real text (which was about some arcane theological issue, not gravity) a lorem-ipsum-type placeholder that they deemed so absurd that any serious listener would immediately realize that that’s what it was. And indeed, you did realize this; and as a result, you reinterpreted your “direct experience,” which was identical to that of witnessing an ex cathedra declaration, as not being one. Precisely by reasoning that the content of the declaration was absurd, you concluded that you didn’t have to believe it. Which is also what you would have done if you hadn’t believed the infallibility doctrine. You remain a believer, serious about giving your faith absolute priority over your own “unaided” reason (as reason is called in these contexts). But that very seriousness has forced you to decide first on the substance of the issue, using reason, and only then whether to defer to the infallible authority. This is neither fluke nor paradox. It is simply that if you take ideas seriously, there is no escape, even in dogma and faith, from the obligation to use reason and to give it priority over dogma, faith, and obedience.
Mung:
Are you making value judgments here, or just offering an opinion?
Neither. See above. Barry is trying to explain human moral behavior via an infallible source of objective morality. Yet, he has not explained how he would have access to it in the way necessary, in practice, when faced with moral problems. Unless Barry somehow denies that actual moral problems exist, it's unclear how he's in any better position than those he criticizes.Popperian
September 14, 2015
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E asks:
If the God you worship somehow demanded that torturing infants was holy requirement of the faith, as a most necessarily good act in service to his divine will, would you be morally obligated to torture infants? More simply, even: if God obligates you to torture infants for fun, would you be so obligated?
Your question is akin to asking, "if circles where square how many sides would they have? It is incoherent. The good subsists in the nature of God, and God does not act against his own nature. It is therefore literally impossible for him to command anyone to torture an infant for pleasure.Barry Arrington
September 14, 2015
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I said:
Under your evolutionary perspective, you might be “obligated” (meaning, under evolution, “wired to feel strongly about) to save your neighbor’s child from your neighbors abuse; yet that same evolutionary foundation entirely justifies that abuse; in fact, you can equally say he has a moral obligation to abuse his child because that is how evolution has wired him.
ES responded:
Well, if that abuse was adaptationally advantageous, then yes ....
Your logic is flawed, ES. If a "moral obligation" by definition is "the strong feelings towards how one ought behave generated by the agglomeration of physical, evolutionary processes and interactions", then whether or not one can determine if it is adaptationally advantageous, acting on that evolution-generated moral feeling is what one is morally obligated to do, period. It's a definitional tautology. Therefore, under your evolutionary basis for morality, if one feels strongly compelled to torture children or cannibalize random people or fly planes into buildings or burn supposed witches at the stake, such strong, compelling feelings authorize such behaviors as moral by definition.William J Murray
September 14, 2015
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DK:
God tortures infants all the time, by way of genetic defects, intrautarine malfunctions, or any number of post-partem insults.
How is any of that God's doing?Virgil Cain
September 14, 2015
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Aleta (attn BA, LH, ES & WJM): While a lot else happened, this is important:
A definition, as a stipulation within a logical system, can’t be in error because we are just declaring that it is what it is.
Definitions, even in formal systems, can beg questions (etc. of course) and become dubious as a result. The fallacy of begging the question in an explicit definition or a definition by discussion or a definition by principle/criterion (as with the old verificationist view) is just that, a fallacy. No true Scotsman will X is a simple case in point. A more serious context is where definition is not arbitrary game-playing in a sand-box but should seek to accurately describe reality in some relevant facet. Plato's dialogues often pivot on such, e.g. what is justice? In other words it is patently not an error to highlight cases where definitions must seek to precisely, coherently, accurately and materially completely describe an aspect of reality. Which is itself not to be question-beggingly equated to the physical, material world. In short, the fallacy of the question-begging, often ideologically loaded and sometimes invidiously accusatory definition must be recognised and addressed. Yet another first steps in reasoning issue for UD.
DEFINITION: The fallacy of the question-begging definition --> presentation of a definition as a part of an argument that embeds or directly implies -- without adequate justification -- a conclusion that is reasonably open to question or dispute, often thereby suppressing or seeking to disqualify, mischaracterise or lock out relevant views, arguments or concerns of one side of a matter in dispute. Such may be by way of manipulatively stipulative and/or persuasive [re-]definitions that are loaded.
A case very relevant to origins science education is found in the US National Science Teachers Association Board statement of July 2000 . . . which I understand came about through a million dollar project:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]
See how many ways there are loaded definitions that beg huge questions, impose agendas by ideological dominance, invidiously mischaracterise those who don't toe the party-line and even hint at menace? Definition is not immune to error. Genuinely self-evident truth, by contrast, once clearly understood, will remain true, seen as true once one understands, and so seen as true by necessity on pain of absurdity on attempted denial. One may indeed reject such, but at the cost of clinging to absurdities. KFkairosfocus
September 14, 2015
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@Barry, Here's the tautology I'm interested in from you, analogously:
If the God you worship somehow demanded that torturing infants was holy requirement of the faith, as a most necessarily good act in service to his divine will, would you be morally obligated to torture infants? More simply, even: if God obligates you to torture infants for fun, would you be so obligated?
eigenstate
September 13, 2015
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@Barry, Yes, by tautology: If the environment were such that killing infants for pleasure was obligatory by nature, then necessarily, the killing of infants for pleasure would be obligatory. Or, if pigs had wings that enabled them to fly, would they then be able to fly? I think so, by the same principle. You could really answer any such question with that same formula. Where the the environment requires X, X is required Try it out, you can put just about anything you like in for X, and it works!eigenstate
September 13, 2015
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eigenstate @ 258 But we are not talking about the "universe." We are talking about whether something is -- your words -- adaptationally advantageous. Your example is not germane. What is adaptationally advantageous can change, and in fact it frequently does. And it does not require anything as drastic as a change in the laws of physics for that to happen. Indeed, evolutionary theory posits that what is adaptationally advantageous can change merely on the basis of a change in an organism's environment. For example, woolly mammoths' thick fur may be adaptationally advantageous in an ice age. It may cause them to get heat stroke and die in a warming period. So, I will ask the question again, If our environment somehow changed so that torturing infants for pleasure became adaptationally advantageous, would we then have an ethical obligation to torture infants for pleasure? A simple yes or no will do.Barry Arrington
September 13, 2015
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Barry,
E you have not responded to my 231. Do you have a response?
You didn't pose any questions in 231 or 232, Barry. There's no question to answer. Do you want my general opinion of your comments? Well, if the world was far different than it is, it would be far different than it is. If was a force that repelled matter with the strength it attracts matter, that'd be a pretty different universe, wouldn't it? That would be a shocking difference from the universe we live in!eigenstate
September 13, 2015
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Daniel King, and your argument has validity for your atheism how exactly? In order for you to make 'the argument from evil' you must first presuppose the existence of evil. i.e. Evil is a Theistic presupposition. Thus the argument refutes itself and is of no help for you in your effort to establish your atheism as true:
“The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430118
Moreover, if Darwinism were truly a proper science, then why is it one of the most theologically entangled, evidence free, sciences going? Notes:
Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740
bornagain77
September 13, 2015
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So if our environment somehow changed so that torturing infants for pleasure became adaptationally advantageous, then we would have an ethical obligation to torture infants for pleasure.
God tortures infants all the time, by way of genetic defects, intrautarine malfunctions, or any number of post-partem insults. We don't know why God does this, but I hope that he doesn't enjoy it.Daniel King
September 13, 2015
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E you have not responded to my 231. This the third time I have asked for your response.Barry Arrington
September 13, 2015
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Before neo-Darwinists try to account for religion, or anything else, in 'evolutionary terms' should they not first give an account for the human brain? In other words, since they can't even provide real time empirical evidence that unguided material, i.e. evolutionary, processes can produce even a single neuron of the following complexity, why should any thing else they say afterwards carry any weight whatsoever?
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html The Half-Truths of Materialist Evolution - DONALD DeMARCO - 02/06/2015 Excerpt: The human brain could not have evolved as a result of the addition of one factor at a time. Its unity and phantasmagorical complexity defies any explanation that relies on pure chance. It would be an underestimation of the first magnitude to say that today’s neurophysiologists know more about the structure and workings of the brain than did Darwin and his associates. Scientists in the field of brain research now inform us that a single human brain contains more molecular-scale switches than all the computers, routers and Internet connections on the entire planet! According to Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, the brain’s complexity is staggering, beyond anything his team of researchers had ever imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief. In the cerebral cortex alone, each neuron has between 1,000 to 10,000 synapses that result, roughly, in a total of 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies! A single synapse may contain 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A synapse, simply stated, is the place where a nerve impulse passes from one nerve cell to another. Phantasmagorical as this level of unified complexity is, it places us merely at the doorway of the brain’s even deeper mind-boggling organization. Glial cells in the brain assist in neuron speed. These cells outnumber neurons 10 times over, with 860 billion cells. All of this activity is monitored by microglia cells that not only clean up damaged cells but also prune dendrites, forming part of the learning process. The cortex alone contains 100,000 miles of myelin-covered, insulated nerve fibers. The process of mapping the brain would indeed be time-consuming. It would entail identifying every synaptic neuron. If it took a mere second to identify each neuron, it would require four billion years to complete the project. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-half-truths-of-materialist-evolution/ "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Component placement optimization in the brain – 1994 As he comments [106], “To current limits of accuracy … the actual placement appears to be the best of all possible layouts; this constitutes strong evidence of perfect optimization.,, among about 40,000,000 alternative layout orderings, the actual ganglion placement in fact requires the least total connection length. http://www.jneurosci.org/content/14/4/2418.abstract The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: In recent years, a growing body of evidence shows that photons play an important role in the basic functioning of cells. Most of this evidence comes from turning the lights off and counting the number of photons that cells produce. It turns out, much to many people’s surprise, that many cells, perhaps even most, emit light as they work. In fact, it looks very much as if many cells use light to communicate. There’s certainly evidence that bacteria, plants and even kidney cells communicate in this way. Various groups have even shown that rats brains are literally alight thanks to the photons produced by neurons as they work.,,, ,,, earlier this year, one group showed that spinal neurons in rats can actually conduct light. ,, Rahnama and co point out that neurons contain many light sensitive molecules, such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores and aromatic amino acids. In particular, mitochondria, the machines inside cells which produce energy, contain several prominent chromophores. The presence of light sensitive molecules makes it hard to imagine how they might not be not influenced by biophotons.,,, They go on to suggest that the light channelled by microtubules can help to co-ordinate activities in different parts of the brain. It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, (So) It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/
Of related note to “It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained”, the following video and paper comments on ‘zero time lag’ in synchronous brain activity:
Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff – video (1:58 minute mark) https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=117 ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/ Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits – 2011 Excerpt: The findings,,, call for reexamining sources of correlated activity in cortex,,, http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.3634
Up the thread I read some neo-Darwinist, perhaps ES, claim religion is delusion, yet I hold that anyone who believes the preceding unfathomed, phantasmagorical, complexity of the human brain was created by unguided material, i.e. evolutionary, processes is a person who is the very definition of delusional and who needs to be locked away for his own safety as well as the safety of others. :) Verse:
Psalm 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
bornagain77
September 13, 2015
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LH, We will let you tell us authoritatively and conclusively what your opinion is today: Here is the proposition: A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition. Is that proposition true or false? Let the squirming begin.Barry Arrington
September 13, 2015
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Finally, LH admits that A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition. It took us a few days to get you there, but you finally got there. Good for you. LH, now that you admit that A=A is infallibly true, tell us how you know that it is infallibly true.
No, Barry, you just trolled while you could for a few days. This is not that hard to understand. He hasn't switched his position. Own the fail.eigenstate
September 13, 2015
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Learned Hand
In 1850, someone could use the same “A cannot also be B” reasoning to say that a particle cannot also be a wave. But they would have been wrong. How could they know in advance that they were wrong? I don’t think they could. Such is the nature of being limited and fallible; such are we.
Recall the unabreviated LOI and LNC. A thing cannot be what it is and also be something else at the same time and under the same formal circumstances (in the same sense) .
There are people, as I said above, who claim that all existence is an illusion, and that all existence is one. That would make you and Mount Everest the same. How do you know they’re wrong? Of course you and I agree that they are wrong, but I’m looking for a tool or principle that would make our belief infallible.
The very fact that a proposition is self evident is proof that we can be infallibly certain about it. Only that which is really true can be obvious. Notice, I didn't say "apparent." It is self evident, for example, that a finite whole is greater than any one of its parts.The broader point is that Reason's rules serve as the vehicle by which we can reach the destination of truth, insofar as we are able. There are a great many things, most things really, that we cannot know. Some truths must be revealed to us because they are out of reach for our limited minds. This is probably why so many people succumb to false religions. Not everyone runs away from the truth, but seeking it and finding it are two different things. It is easy to fall into error. That is because most world religions do not offer their adherents good reasons for believing what is being taught. Unlike the case for Christianity, there is no such thing as Islamic or Buddhist, or Hindu "apologetics." These religions don't even claim to be rational. Yes, Islam claims to be inspired, but it does not claim to be rational. In some cases, leaders of a given religion may say, "cone join us and be a part of something." In other cases, they might say, "convert, or I will kill you." What they will likely not say is this: "Here is why our religion is right and other religions are, at least in part, wrong." This should be a thinking man's clue to keep searching. So, we need reason to find our way around. The capacity to know some things-- and to know which things are really important--depends on the validity of reason's rules and our ability to be certain about their application in the real world. This is the supreme role that reason is supposed to play--to help people find the right religion--a religion grounded in reason yet, at the same time, capable of illuminating reason. Religion should be made to pass the test of reason before being allowed to illuminate reason. Otherwise, it may contaminate reason. Remember also we are discussing rationality. Many people are not rational and do not want to be. One of the first indicators that someone does not want to be rational is the act of denying self evident truths. That person values something more than the truth--usually a life style. What that person doesn't know yet is that a faith-based life is far more joyful and fulfilling than the mindless pursuit of pleasure and the dreary prospect of returning to dust never to be heard from again. That is because there really is such a thing as truth and it really does set people free.StephenB
September 13, 2015
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Mung, what are you lol'ing about? Be specific. Do you think that Euclidean (flat) geometry is more true in a logical sense than the other two geometries?Aleta
September 13, 2015
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E
A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition.
LH
I don’t see anywhere we disagree.
Finally, LH admits that A=A is infallibly true and not dubitable as an analytic proposition. It took us a few days to get you there, but you finally got there. Good for you. LH, now that you admit that A=A is infallibly true, tell us how you know that it is infallibly true.Barry Arrington
September 13, 2015
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Learned Hand: E, thanks for your comment @ 240. I don’t see anywhere we disagree. I like jello too.Mung
September 13, 2015
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Aleta:
But no one geometry, nor no one of the starting parallel postulates, is any more true, in a logical sense, than any other. The may be more or less “true”, or “true enough” in different practical contexts, but that is a different kind of truth (synthetic, not analytic, to use the terms ES has been using.)
LoL.Mung
September 13, 2015
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E, thanks for your comment @ 240. I don't see anywhere we disagree.Learned Hand
September 13, 2015
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Barry, I think you are not even trying here to understand. I agree. I think BA’s goals are (a) to score points, and thus feel and look good, and (b) to demonize those who question him. Understanding what another person thinks is wholly irrelevant. Taking a sentence and responding to it, as if it exists in isolation, is perfectly sufficient to achieve those goals. Having an adult conversation about ideas is perfectly irrelevant to those goals. Hence, lots of selective quotation and very little reasoned discussion. Amateur analysis is worth what you pay for it, but it seems pretty consistent with the foot-stomping model of discourse. What would “error” for a definition look like? Can you give an example of some hypothetical circumstance where a definition was in “error”? As I said above, I can’t even imagine, and no, I can’t. I can, but only as a function of applying some definition (an analytic proposition) to a synthetic definition. Do you mean something like, “I will define 4 as the product of 2 x 1,” and the failure of that definition to describe the external world? I agree that’s possible, of course. If that would be the kind of example you give, then it’s time for Barry to eat crow as I expected would happen. Under no circumstances will that ever happen. BA’s not in this to discuss or refine ideas: the goal is to attack you, and defend his conclusions from scrutiny. Admitting error would be directly contradictory to those goals. If Barry’s correct, can you give a hypothetical, or an example where the definition is itself somehow erroneous, as a definition. No, I can’t. My claim, and my understanding (which I do suppose you share, but correct me if I’m mistaken) is that “error”, like “certainty” or “doubtability” is not an attribute of a definition. Put conversely, if it can be wrong, it ain’t a definition. Definitions can and do regularly run into trouble when making contact with the extra-mental world, but any error or confidence problem there obtains in the model that *applies* to the definition. Sure. My argument above was essentially saying that this question—the very concept of what a definition is—can’t be infallibly shown to be infallible. Could it be infallible? Sure. But what tool do we use to say that this piece of reasoning cannot contain flaws? I can’t think of any, and BA, when asked to provide such a tool, says, “shut up, liar.” The solution is to say that we don’t need to call a definition infallibly certain, we just call it an axiom and move on. I’ve made that point in many different comments. I think you’re saying the same thing, but skipping over the question of whether any reasoning at all can be said to be infallible. (In much the same way a man sets his alarm without wondering whether the sun will rise tomorrow. We just skip over these absurdly fundamental questions.) Maybe an example I provide will make this easy for you to clear up. A: “The morally good is whatever God says is good”. As a matter of definition, there’s nothing to doubt or find in error, here. We might resist this definition or that as incoherent or unintelligible, but as a matter of “error”, there’s nothing to attach error to, as it’s just a definition. Right. The questions I asked above, in this example, would be something like asking, “is there any possible exception to the rule that whatever God says is good is good?” Well, we can’t identify any external standard that would prove the rule or provide certainty, so we just call it an axiom and move on. Anyway, that’s an example you might respond to. What’s possibly in doubt about A in your view? About the definition itself, nothing. I can think of no way it could be flawed in its own terms. My point above was that to say “I can see no possible flaw” is not a logical proof that no flaw is possible. I think you’re making the same point by saying that the idea of a logical proof that no flaw is possible is irrelevant to a definition that we create. We just take it as defined and move on. Is that correct? Your response should indicate whether you are thinking about errors as errors that obtain from incorporating A in some model or synthetic proposition, or whether you truly do, as Barry insists, find something dubitable about A (and other definitions) as definitions — unapplied and unattached to any synthetic propositions. I’m not thinking of it in these terms at all, really. Like Barry these aren’t concepts I’m very familiar with. I appreciate that your questions are sharpening my position.Learned Hand
September 13, 2015
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