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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
LH @ 92:
I’d like to understand your position accurately.
No you don't. Otherwise, you would already know the answer to these questions. I and SB and KF and HeKS have covered them repeatedly. Again, your failure to understand is not the same as my failure to explain. Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Barry:
BTW, Learned Hand, do you have infallible knowledge about your own opinion that the Holocaust was evil?
LH:
I’d say that I think I cannot be mistaken about whether I believe what I think I believe . . . but I can’t rule [it] out
God help us. Dear readers, the special irony here is that LH honestly believes the screaming idiocy on display in that sentence is the height of intellectual sophistication. Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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So to recap, here’s the things Barry can do infallibly (even though he is not claiming to be infallible, and you’re a liar if you say so): A) Tell that analytic propositions are amenable to infallible knowledge B) Discriminate, in at least some instances, between analytic and synthetic propositions C) Tell that a specific analytic proposition is infallibly true Is that wrong anywhere? I’d like to understand your position accurately.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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BTW, Learned Hand, do you have infallible knowledge about your own opinion that the Holocaust was evil? As I said, this is a case of cogito ergo sum (or at least I think it is). My philosophy is neither fully-formed nor perfect; I am proud of being humble enough to say, "I don't know." (And proud that I choose to do that instead of insulting you to distract from the fact that I don't know.) My best answer is that it's the same as A=A. I cannot imagine any way in which I could be mistaken in asserting my own beliefs, or my own consciousness. But "I cannot conceive of a counter-example" is not an absolute proof of the concept if you assume, as I do, that my ability to comprehend the concept is limited. So I'd say that I think I cannot be mistaken about whether I believe what I think I believe, unless there's some qualification or special case I can't conceive of, but I can't rule out the things I can't conceive of. I'll worry about whether such things exist if they ever arise.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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SB, It’s really very simple. You are either absolutely certain that our perceptions about A =A are flawed, or you are not. I am not, if by "flawed" you mean "actually in error." I think that our perceptions may be in error. I don’t think that they are, when it comes to A=A, but I can’t infallibly rule out the possibility. And if you can, you’re awfully shy about explaining how. (ETA: if by "flawed" you mean that our perceptions could be in error, then still no. I've explained this to you already and that's a bit frustrating, but I need to be civil and charitable and recognize that this is a messy, sprawling, fast-moving conversation. You aren't accountable for a perfect knowledge of all of my comments, even those directed at you. I don't absolutely know with perfect certainty that our perceptions are potentially in error. If there's a way to demonstrate that they aren't, I'd love to hear it. Your suggestions were the best I've heard, but they took infallibility as a prerequisite.) [b] If you are not absolutely certain that our perceptions about that law can be flawed, then you have contradicted your unqualified statement that our perceptions are, indeed, flawed. I’m not sure if by “flawed” you mean that flawed perceptions are in error or could be in error. The latter is my position, which is clear enough from the many, long posts I’ve written: I think that our perceptions are fallible, and that we can’t infallibly rule out error. Simple enough. In other words, for the avoidance of doubt, our perceptions may be in error, but I don’t mean to assert that are certainly in error. Meanwhile, I don’t understand why you feel the need to misrepresent the facts. I laid out my position very clearly and I explained why I am certain about self-evident truths. I think you assumed infallibility to do it, and hoped you had some explanation that didn’t do so. No? My aim is not to abuse you. I believe you! You seem reluctant to do so, but not to the point of being civil. That’s a shame.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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Way back at 50, I quoted BA (bornagain77, henceforth ba77, not Barry Arrington) as saying, "Semi related to the depressing Nihilistic belief, i.e. life is meaningless belief, inherent to atheism...", and I replied,
Nope, life is not meaningless, nor nihilistic, to an atheist.
At 57, ba77 replied,
But alas, the evidence contradicts your denial of the nihilistic, life is meaningless, belief inherent to atheism. i.e. Numerous studies indicate that, across the board, atheists have a sadder life than theists. Thus while you may personally claim you are just as happy, or happier, than theists, the facts themselves don’t back up your claim for atheism across the board.
First of all, I take studies like that with many grains of salt. One can easily find studies that don't support that conclusion, and, in my opinion, the whole subject of adequately measuring such things is problematic. But the main point here is that I said nothing about happiness - I referred to life being meaningful. These are two different things. One might find happiness, and meaning, by living behind rose-colored glasses, shielded from a realistic appraisal of the world. Happiness may be more difficult to achieve the more one realizes the existential sense of being responsible to choose that lies upon one who doesn't believe there is a God. However, that responsibility, and the consequent choices one makes, can also, perhaps, make one's life more meaningful than the meaning others derive from accepting a belief system about a God that, in the atheist view, does not exist. Beliefs that help make us happy, or make us think that life is meaningful, may in fact be false. I would rather live with the uncertainty of not believing in any external divine source of meaning than base my life on false beliefs about such divine beings.Aleta
September 11, 2015
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BTW, Learned Hand, do you have infallible knowledge about your own opinion that the Holocaust was evil?Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Just a quick note re: 85 - BA is responding to a pre-edit version of my comment. I read my comment after I posted it and thought the version BA is responding to sounded a little childish, so I toned it down, but he'd apparently been responding to it already by then. My bad for not editing first and posting second.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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LH, I don't know why you are struggling with my question so much. It's really very simple. You are either absolutely certain that our perceptions about A =A can be flawed, or you are not. [a] If you are absolutely certain that our perceptions about that law can be flawed, then you have contradicted your claim that we can be absolutely certain about nothing. [b] If you are not absolutely certain that our perceptions about that law can be flawed, then you have contradicted your unqualified statement that our perceptions are, indeed, flawed. Meanwhile, I don't understand why you feel the need to misrepresent the facts. I laid out my position very clearly and I explained why I am certain about self-evident truths. You just didn't understand the points. If you have any further questions, I will be happy to help you. My aim is not to abuse you. The point is to illuminate your intellect and protect onlookers from falling into your errors. Here is another question: Are you absolutely certain that you are not Mount Everest? Please explain your answer as clearly as you can.StephenB
September 11, 2015
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LH:
"Answer it yes or no! Yes is agreeing with me that you are wrong, and no makes you look like a Nazi. Victory!”
Why, yes, that is how it works LH. When you equivocate on whether the Holocaust is evil, you are shown to be evil. Now you can call me all sorts of names (poop flinger, etc.) but at the end of the day I can stand up and say "The Holocaust was evil and it is impossible for me to be wrong about that." You say, "I am pretty darn sure the Holocaust was evil, but I might be wrong about that." And you preen yourself at your moral and intellectual sophistication. You really do disgust me.Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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I see you still have not learned the distinction between analytic and synthetic propositions. How can I help you if you keep spouting the same errors over and over even after I’ve corrected you repeatedly. I won’t give up on you though. I know you can do better. I am persuaded that your ignorance is not invincible. Now, here is your assignment. Figure out why you’ve committed a major category error when you compare the analytic proposition A=A to the synthetic proposition “a particle cannot act like a wave.” “I cannot explain my position. You must explain it for me.” It’s a slightly less simplistic version of using insults to distract from the gaping void where an argument would go. Why are you incapable of being in error about analytic propositions? This is just another version of “there are self-evident truths, and I know what they are, and I can’t be wrong about that.” But we saw how you furiously imploded at the slightest pressure on that idea last time. To say that “I cannot be wrong about analytic propositions” is pointless; you must also have an infallible ability to discriminate between analytic and synthetic propositions, or you could never guarantee you’re looking at an AP and thus would have to admit the possibility of error. So is that the position? You can infallibly discriminate between the two? Here we go again. SB and HeKS and I have corrected this error several times now. Oh? Where? Because this seems like another iteration of, “I cannot articulate it, but you are a dumb-head for doubting it.” I don’t know how one refutes “You can take the rule as an axiom.” I don’t think you do, either. Yes. Unlike an analytic proposition, it is conceivable for me to be in error about this synthetic proposition. Thank you for making a plain statement of your position without including an insult. (b), if so, how do you know when your position on a particular issue is infallible? When we are talking about an analytic proposition is one way. This, again, assumes that you can infallibly discriminate between the two. If you can’t, the error is still possible. You see, LH, you really are not going to understand the first thing until you learn the difference between necessary and contingent. I’ve been trying very patiently to teach you. “Look at my shiny pedestal. It is glorious, and I am glorious, and entirely justified in flinging poop at people. Because I do it from this shiny pedestal. I am not only justified and glorious, I am noble for flinging poop. It says so right on the pedestal! The pedestal that I built to stand on so that I could throw poop without getting dirty. Why does my hand smell so bad?” And the answer is, yes I can have infallible knowledge of analytic propositions. I have a hard time squaring that with your earlier poop-flinging, “You continue to say that I claim to be personally infallible. That is a lie and you know it is a lie.” “I do not claim to be infallible” and “I can have infallible knowledge of X” are hard to reconcile. But ironically, you can’t be in error, so presumably I’m dumb and a liar for finding the juxtaposition of your comments confusing. Let’s assume that there is a category of questions about which you are infallible. The discrimination problem remains: if you cannot infallibly sort questions into that bucket or another, then you can never know for certain whether you are in error, correct? So does the self-referential problem: you need to be infallibly certain that you cannot be in error about analytic propositions, in order to use the distinction as the basis of infallible certainty in the case of any specific proposition. So “I can have infallible knowledge of analytic propositions,” assuming that you mean that you actually do have infallible knowledge of any such proposition, is an assertion of several different types of infallibility: a) I can be infallibly certain of at least some propositions, those in category X b) I can infallibly discriminate between propositions in category X and those that aren’t c) I can be infallibly certain of this actual proposition You’re doing the same thing SB did when he tried to square this circle: assuming your infallibility in order to establish your infallibility. I don’t think you can be infallibly certain that analytic truths are amenable to infallible certainty. I don’t think you can discriminate infallibly between analytic and synthetic propositions. And I don’t think that you’ve established any tool with which to eradicate the possibility of error with regard to your apprehension of logical propositions. And I have. Repeatedly. Your failure to understand a justification is not the same thing as my failure to provide a justification. You should write that down. Can you point out a couple of places where you’ve gone through your reasoning? It would be helpful!
you know it would be silly to claim that you are infallible
Which is why I have never claimed any such thing. BA: “And the answer is, yes I can have infallible knowledge of analytic propositions.” Also BA: “I have never claimed [to be infallible.]” Also BA, upon any miscommunication or misunderstanding of his position: “You are stupid and a liar for claiming to misunderstand me.” Here’s my (a) or (b) question for you LH: (a) It is possible Barry is wrong when he says the Holocaust was evil. (b) It is not possible for Barry to be wrong when he says the Holocaust was evil. (a) or (b) LH? Neither. I’m a subjectivist, remember? I think there is no objective standard to tell us. We answer the question for ourselves. You and I believe it was evil. Whether we can be mistaken about whether we believe our own beliefs is a case of “cogito ergo sum,” which I think is the hardest test of my position. I can’t imagine any way in which it could be in error… but my failure to conceive of something is not a logical proof that something is impossible. And of course, this is a rhetorical trap beloved of first-year law students and precocious undergrads. The position is constructed on a horrible example, and presented with a binary choice, to try and force a particular result. Agree with me, or you look like a Nazi. Meh. This kind of thing is a strong signal that the underlying argument is weak. So to recap, here’s the things Barry can do infallibly (even though he is not claiming to be infallible, and you’re a liar if you say so): A) Tell that analytic propositions are amenable to infallible knowledge B) Discriminate, in at least some instances, between analytic and synthetic propositions C) Tell that a specific analytic proposition is infallibly true Is that wrong anywhere? I’d like to understand your position accurately.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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SB, Since you keep contradicting yourself, I need for you to choose the correct formulation so that I can know what you really mean. Or you could read the comments in which I explain this. Frankly, I don’t think you’re that confused. I think you can’t articulate your own position in a coherent way, so you need to keep writhing and twisting to keep the discussion centered somewhere else. None of your clumsy paraphrases are correct. I do not see any way that we can be absolutely certain about anything. I’m open to being persuaded that it’s possible; you are not even trying to do so. You’re just capering about and complaining. What’s your philosophy, SB? Can you be infallibly certain of anything? If so, what? And how do you discriminate between “I can be absolutely certain of this” and “I could be in error on this?” You keep ignoring these questions. But no amount of “you are a contradictory dumb-head!” will substitute for an actual argument on your part. Why are the questions so difficult for you, SB? If your philosophy is coherent and rational, why can’t you write it down?Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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LH,
Just as someone who could not conceive of a particle being a wave would have been wrong, because their experience and perspective was limited.
I see you still have not learned the distinction between analytic and synthetic propositions. How can I help you if you keep spouting the same errors over and over even after I’ve corrected you repeatedly. I won’t give up on you though. I know you can do better. I am persuaded that your ignorance is not invincible. Now, here is your assignment. Figure out why you’ve committed a major category error when you compare the analytic proposition A=A to the synthetic proposition “a particle cannot act like a wave.”
We easily can. Take the rule as an axiom.
Here we go again. SB and HeKS and I have corrected this error several times now. Just repeating it over and over won’t make it any less erroneous.
Can you be in error when you assert that “all but a tiny tiny fraction of abortions constitute the unjustified taking of a human life and are therefore evil”?
Yes. Unlike an analytic proposition, it is conceivable for me to be in error about this synthetic proposition.
(b), if so, how do you know when your position on a particular issue is infallible?
When we are talking about an analytic proposition is one way. You see, LH, you really are not going to understand the first thing until you learn the difference between necessary and contingent. I’ve been trying very patiently to teach you. You refuse to learn and keep repeating the same error over and over, as if repeating it n times will somehow make it true when it was not true when you said it n-1 times.
If you can be in error, are there positions you do take that cannot be in error?
Your question boils down to this: If it is possible for Barry to be in error about a synthetic proposition, are there other propositions about which he cannot be in error? And the answer is, yes I can have infallible knowledge of analytic propositions.
Answering questions is so much harder than spitting on people!
You keep whining. I’ve told you why I speak so harshly. Someone who says that it is possible for A=A to be false is insane, stupid or a liar. I am trying to shame you into better conduct. You do appear to be very nearly shameless though. But I won’t give up on you LH. When you tell lies or say staggeringly stupid things, I will continue to point it out.
But if your position is well-justified, it shouldn’t really be that hard.
And I have. Repeatedly. Your failure to understand a justification is not the same thing as my failure to provide a justification. You should write that down.
you know it would be silly to claim that you are infallible
Which is why I have never claimed any such thing.
we’re just stuck in a loop
Yes, we are. The loop is this: LH says something staggeringly stupid like “it is possible that the analytic proposition A=A could be false.” I correct LH. LH says it again. I correct him. LH says it again . . . It is a tiresome loop. But, as I said, I refuse to give up on you LH. I know you can do better.
Do you take moral positions that cannot be in error?
Yes. Here’s one: “The Holocaust was evil.” Here’s my (a) or (b) question for you LH: (a) It is possible Barry is wrong when he says the Holocaust was evil. (b) It is not possible for Barry to be wrong when he says the Holocaust was evil. (a) or (b) LH?Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Learned Hand
It’s not that A=A is a flawed or incomplete rule. It’s that our perception of it is flawed, or at least capable of being flawed.
Are you absolutely certain that our perceptions about the law of identity "are" flawed? Or, Are you absolutely certain that our perceptions about the law of identity "can be" flawed? Or, Are you uncertain that our perceptions about the law of identity "are" flawed? Or, Are you uncertain that our perceptions about the law of identity "can be" flawed? Since you keep contradicting yourself, I need for you to choose the correct formulation so that I can know what you really mean.StephenB
September 11, 2015
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I think you are confusing necessarily and infallibly true rules of logic with what are termed “properly basic beliefs”. It’s possible, sure. I don’t think so, though. A properly basic belief is essentially one that can be rationally held without requiring even more basic evidence to support it but which cannot be definitively proved. Yes, and I agree that A=A falls within this category. It can be rationally held. It needn’t be asserted as a truth that is unquestionable, or about which we have infallible knowledge. We hold it because we need to, and it works. The fact that it is an axiom is (a) not disputed, and (b) not relevant to whether one can have infallible knowledge of a fact. This is quite different from a necessary and self-evident truth like the Law of Identity, which cannot be challenged without immediately descending into absurdity, such that as soon as you understand what it is you come to realize the utter futility of trying to challenge or deny it. This is a just-so story. What is absurd about saying that we cannot have infallible knowledge without a tool to remove error from our cognition? That’s the core of my argument: there is no rational basis on which to say that we have infallible knowledge of anything. I keep asking people who are upset with this position how they can do so, and the answers are contortions, attacks, slurs and evasions. How can someone know that they are infallibly correct in any belief? “I think therefore I am” is a hard one to get around, I admit that, but I still think error is possible. (I can’t imagine how error could actually be possible, but my whole point is that our inability to imagine a case does not mean that it’s strictly impossible for such a case to exist.) And my understanding of BA’s beliefs are that he cannot be wrong about much more than just “I think therefore I am.” His infallibility goes far beyond that or “A=A.” I think he believes that certain moral beliefs, the ones that just happen to match his culture and peer group, are objective and infallibly held. That he can be incompletely, but not incorrectly, perceiving an objective, transcendent moral standard. (It’s hard to tell exactly what BA thinks, since the vast majority of his posts are bricks in the wall. “This person is stupid” outnumbers “here is what I think” by an enormous margin. Which pretty much matches what I think the mission is: attack those who disagree, never scrutinize own beliefs.)Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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LH’s corruption of the law of identity: A=A, except in those possible cases that I can’t think of right now when it does not. You don’t seem able or willing to engage the point I’m making. It’s not that A=A is a flawed or incomplete rule. It’s that our perception of it is flawed, or at least capable of being flawed. It may be entirely true that there are no exceptions. I don’t assert that there are. I say only that our inability to conceive of them does not mean there cannot be any; it says only that we cannot conceive of them. Just as someone who could not conceive of a particle being a wave would have been wrong, because their experience and perspective was limited. LH’s corruption of the law undermines reason itself. How can we know when the exception is applicable? We never can. We easily can. Take the rule as an axiom. Is the resulting logic internally consistent and functional in the physical world? Great! No exception is apparent. And if no exception is apparent, or even conceivable, there’s no need to discard the axiom. But you can prod and probe the axiom for all eternity and you’ll still not have a perfect, limitless perspective with which to say, “My perception of the rule is infallible.” BTW, LH, I never said that all abortions are self-evidently evil. OK, but that doesn’t even come close to answering the question at hand. I think you have taken the position that you have infallible positions. What else does it mean when you spit on “the materialists who deny infallible knowledge of self-evident truths”? And I think you’ve said that people who disagree with certain of your moral beliefs—including on abortion, your evasion here being transparent--cannot rationally, sanely disagree with you. BA, can you be in error when you assert that “all but a tiny tiny fraction of abortions constitute the unjustified taking of a human life and are therefore evil”? If not, (a) aren’t you asserting that your position is infallible? And (b), if so, how do you know when your position on a particular issue is infallible? If you can be in error, are there positions you do take that cannot be in error? And then, same questions (a) and (b). Answering questions is so much harder than spitting on people! But if your position is well-justified, it shouldn’t really be that hard. Here’s what I think is happening: you know it would be silly to claim that you are infallible. But to admit that you could be in error about such things creates very large problems for your preferred method of moral reasoning (“I am right, you are an insane idiot, shut up.”). So rather than really come to terms with the problem, we’re just stuck in a loop of your preferred method of reasoning (see above). Rather than attack attack attack, why not put a positive argument on the table and see if it holds up? That’s the big difference between you on the one hand and Avicenna or Lewis on the other. While they may have resorted to insults from time to time, they also played ball. They had coherent philosophies beyond “shut up dummy.” What’s yours? Do you take moral positions that cannot be in error? If so, how do you know which ones they are?Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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HeKS: Indeed, worldview foundations will contain both self-evident first truths and properly basic beliefs which it is rational to hold as a part of a coherent and factually competent system. And indeed they are different. KFkairosfocus
September 11, 2015
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Learned Hand, I think you are confusing necessarily and infallibly true rules of logic with what are termed "properly basic beliefs". A properly basic belief is essentially one that can be rationally held without requiring even more basic evidence to support it but which cannot be definitively proved. An example would be belief in the reality of the external world. Properly basic beliefs can generally at least be challenged without automatically descending into self-defeating absurdity. This is quite different from a necessary and self-evident truth like the Law of Identity, which cannot be challenged without immediately descending into absurdity, such that as soon as you understand what it is you come to realize the utter futility of trying to challenge or deny it.HeKS
September 11, 2015
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The law of identify: A=A LH's corruption of the law of identity: A=A, except in those possible cases that I can't think of right now when it does not. LH's corruption of the law undermines reason itself. How can we know when the exception is applicable? We never can. Therefore, if LH's corruption of the law were true we could never make any reasoned argument. That he nevertheless insists on his corruption, to the point of casting moral aspersions on those who reject it, shows that he is either a liar, deeply stupid, or insane. Take your pick. BTW, LH, I never said that all abortions are self-evidently evil. I do believe that all but a tiny tiny fraction of abortions constitute the unjustified taking of a human life and are therefore evil. Whether any particular abortion is evil depends on the circumstances. In extremely rare cases the taking of the baby's life is justified. In such a case, the abortion is not evil. I can't imagine why you would say I say all abortions are self-evidently evil. Another lie on your part.Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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whether we can have any knowledge infallibly is the question
To which the answer is "Yes, unless all logic is invalid and we are all insane." Meaning it is not worth talking about unless you want to honestly include universal insanity as a valid objection. Which is...drc466
September 11, 2015
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drc466, Properly stated, we are talking about logic conclusions (A=A), not beliefs. I say “belief” because I think it’s reasonable to call anything you think or take as a premise a “belief.” If you want to use some other word I’m happy to do so, but I think “conclusion” is a very bad one in this context. A=A isn’t a logical conclusion. It’s a starting point, not a conclusion. If you wish to attack Barry’s assertion that murdering babies is morally wrong is an infallible fact, fine, feel free to do so. I don’t. I wish to understand why he thinks that certain of his beliefs are infallible. He says that he doesn’t claim infallibility, and now I’m wondering if I’ve misunderstood him. Does he think he could be in error to believe those things? If not, I think he’s asserting some infallibility. If so, then we don’t really disagree on that point. (And again, there’s an important difference here: I’m looking not at whether the supposed fact that abortion is wrong is infallibly true, but whether a fallible human can have an infallible perception of or belief in that fact. Just as with A=A, it could be perfectly, infallibly true—but is our belief that it’s so infallible? How can we know?) But to try to attack it on grounds that we cannot know any thing for certain is basically saying, “That might not be true if we are universally insane”. I don’t agree with your paraphrase. You’ve skipped right over the fact that I agree we can adopt A=A as an axiom and use it all day long, without a second thought. But that doesn’t establish that we are infallible in believing it. Similarly, people who believed that a particle could not also be a wave could do so without a second thought, but were not infallible. You really want me to be saying, “A is not A,” or “I deny that we can assume A is A.” It’s just not my position. I only say that we should recognize that our assumption that A=A is an assumption, and not infallible. Because whether or not A infallibly =A is not the question—whether we can have any knowledge infallibly is the question.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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If I've misunderstood you, I apologize--but I have to wonder why you are protesting so much if you agree that you could be mistaken. I also wonder why you write things like: "Therefore, if a person understands a self-evidently true proposition at all, it is not possible for him to be in error about it." "I have had some harsh words for several of the materialists who deny infallible knowledge of self-evident truths such as A=A." That second quote especially sounds as if you're saying it's wrong to deny infallible knowledge. My understanding of your position has been that you take positions that sane, rational people cannot disagree with. That we all understand that A=A and abortion is wrong, and cannot disagree without lying to ourselves. No? Is it possible that you could be wrong about abortion and other "self-evident" truths? If so, then I have misunderstood your position, and I apologize. If not, then how are you not claiming infallibility?Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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LH, I'll stand by my earlier comments, as you didn't really address them.
A) We don’t claim to be infallible B) We just have certain infallible beliefs C) We know those beliefs are infallible because shut up, you are insane.
This is a strawman, as hopefully you know. Properly stated, we are talking about logic conclusions (A=A), not beliefs. A) We don’t claim to be infallible B) We just have certain infallible logical conclusions C) We know those logical conclusions are infallible because the only way they could be wrong is if we are all insane and all logic is invalid. If you wish to attack Barry's assertion that murdering babies is morally wrong is an infallible fact, fine, feel free to do so. But to try to attack it on grounds that we cannot know any thing for certain is basically saying, "That might not be true if we are universally insane". Which, if we accept that as any type of valid argument, would be a complete and total conversation-stopper to any, and all assertions. "Does A=A? Not if we are universally insane! Is radioactive dating valid? Not if we are universally insane! Does the layering of fossils have any significance for the evolution of animals? Not if we are universally insane! Do the discrepancies between genetic and morphological phylogenies have any relevance to Evolutionary theory? Not if we are universally insane! Is it an absolute truth that murdering innocent unborn children for their body parts is morally wrong? Not if we are universally insane!"drc466
September 11, 2015
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Learned Hand, You continue to say that I claim to be personally infallible. That is a lie and you know it is a lie. And yes I am building a wall. I am building a wall between liars and non-liars (and sadly you are on the wrong side of that wall). There are two and only two positions one can take with respect to the law of identity. (1) it is infallibly true in all cases; (2) it is possibly not true, in which case reason itself is impossible. You opt for the latter. You say I am a divisive wall building hater because I insist on the truth and reject error. You are a classic example of the truth of this aphorism: "The truth is hate to those who hate the truth."Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Barry, To say that it is not infallibly true is to say that perhaps it is not true. And that is to deny it. This is where you would rudely demand that someone read more closely. I deny that you are able to infallibly know whether the law is true, not that the law is definitely not infallibly true. You are the limited, flawed part of the equation, not the law of identity. And as a limited, flawed observer, how can you know infallibly that the law is true? If you can’t answer the question, why not just say so? The longer you twist and distort and insult and rave, the more obvious it is that you cannot explain why you are justified in believing your own infallibility—and that you will not question it. After all, to admit such doubt would be to breach the wall, and muddle the distinction between the perfect pure infallible mind of Barry and the dirty dumb stupid liar people who think he might be fallible. HeKS, The Laws of Identity, Non Contradiction, and the Excluded Middle are fundamental rules of logic itself. Without them, we cannot reason. Reason and argument simply becomes impossible, as does any kind of coherent meaning. And yet, here you are attempting to ARGUE that it could be possible for these fundamental rules of logic to be false and you are trying to make a DISTINCTION between axioms that merely work and propositions that are self-evident and necessarily (even infallibly) true. Acknowledging that we could be in error doesn’t keep us from relying on these laws. They’re axioms. We don’t need to pretend that they’re proven concepts we understand infallibly. We assume them and use them because they work. After all, I’m not infallibly certain that I will live to see another day—but I’m still going to make plans for the weekend. Why would we have to believe our understanding of the LOI is infallible to reason? We can and do assume that it’s always true for our purposes, based on our experience (which is limited) and our reason (which is capable of error). And of course, as much as some people writhe and spit when their infallibility is questioned, I can’t see a single argument in support of that infallibility. It’s just protestations of how unacceptable it would be if we were fallible, and how vile the people who question that premise are. Those aren’t arguments. Andre (and Barb, in a different comment), Your entire argument is this; “I know that I can’t know” How do you know that you can’t know? You’re about the fifth person to spring this particular “gotcha.” Your paraphrase is wrong. I don’t know that I can’t know. I think that I can’t know. And no one has offered any cogent argument for how or why we could be assured of our own infallibility. I keep asking, and I keep getting screamed at. It sure seems like those who cherish the assumption of their infallibility have no good explanation, and are finding their inability to create one extremely frustrating. Box, “Harming little boys and girls is wrong” is a self-evident moral truth. No doubt about it. What is not self-evidently true is that this moral truth applies to abortion. And yet BA thinks you’re insane and wicked for getting the latter SET wrong. How can we tell it’s a SET? Shut up, moron liar. Why is BA’s understanding of that SET infallible? Shut up, moron liar. It’s like a Socratic dialogue, as conducted by Alex Jones. KF, First, no sane human being claims infallibility, which does not prevent us from being demonstrably right on certain matters. I agree! BA does not. He has very often asserted that he has beliefs that cannot be wrong, and that cannot be questioned—not that he is demonstrably right, but that no result other than his own correctness is possible. I expect that you read that statement and interpreted it as a strawman turnabout red-herring soaked in oil of ad hominem to be set alight in order to burn down the chains of reason from which we warrant the existence of first-mover moral etc. etc. etc. Don’t ever change. drc466, Barry’s point is that if your only response to “A=A is infallibly true” is “well, it’s possible that logic is completely, totally worthless at its most foundational level”, you’re basically saying that any and all further discussion of any topic anywhere is pointless. I think you’re being extraordinarily charitable to BA’s “shut up moron liar irrational dummy” line of argument, which is admirable. If that is his point, it is not very good. As I said above, we don’t need to assert at the top of our lungs that we have a perfect, infallible grasp of A=A in order to reason. We can accept it as an axiom: “This has always been true in my experience, and I cannot even imagine a case in which it couldn’t be true, therefore I’m perfectly comfortable proceeding as if it’s true without a second thought.” We don’t need to stop and insist, “I understand A=A perfectly. It is impossible for me to be wrong when I say A=A in any and all cases, without exception. It is absolutely certain, with no doubt even logically possible.” And of course, we’re using A=A as the easiest case. BA extends his infallibility far beyond the “most foundational level” of logic. He also asserts an infallible knowledge of objective morality. Not infallible in all respects, to be sure—at no level does he claim to be perfectly, completely infallible. Merely that he knows things about which there can be absolutely, totally, no dispute, from A=A to “abortion is wrong.” Which means he has some infallible faculty, not just for answering those questions but for telling which questions are amenable to his infallible faculty. How do we get from taking A=A as an axiom to a poorly- but infallibly-defined list of questions about which we supposedly have infallible knowledge? I keep asking… In the interest of not putting up a wall, let me allow you your assertion that no one can know infallibly that A=A. However, to accept the possibility that A=A is not infallible knowledge falls under the definition of insanity. I appreciate the effort. But why is it insane to accept that our knowledge is not infallible? If you say this because we need to rely on A=A, all that establishes is that we need to rely on it—not that our reason or perceptions are infallible. How do you demonstrate that our understanding is perfect? My answer is that I can’t—I accept A=A as an axiom. The answer of those who demand that they are infallible seems to be: (A) We don't claim to be infallible (B) We just have certain infallible beliefs (C) We know those beliefs are infallible because shut up, you are insane.Learned Hand
September 11, 2015
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HeKS, exegesis of Jn 1:1 relative to say the Nicene creed (created by the Gk church on Jn 1:1, Heb 1, Col 1, 1 Cor 15 etc in the first council since Jerusalem AD 48, and on that subject in reply to Arianism . . . ) is a bit far afield of UD's focus, so I concur it should go to a separate venue. KFkairosfocus
September 11, 2015
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drc466, I would certainly be happy to discuss the Trinity doctrine with you, but it would best be handled in another venue. I don't think this is the best place for it. Briefly, however, I disagree with you on the clarity of John 1:1. Translated as it is in most versions, following the KJV as a pattern, actually does lead to a logical contradiction according to the rules of English grammar. The verse does not tell us that the Word was "God" by identity, but that he was "god" by nature. The Coptic translation of the NT is instructive here, as it was made when Koine Greek was still a living language and Coptic has both a definite and indefinite article like English does. The Coptic of John 1:1 reads, "the word was a god". The Coptic is not needed to make the point that this is a more appropriate translation, but it is certainly interesting to note. And as regards the arguments brought against this sort of rendering, which are generally theological, they are based on the creation of a false dichotomy between "true gods" and "false gods". For a detailed considering of the proper rendering of John 1:1, I suggest you check out the book Truth in Translation by Dr. Jason Beduhn. And if you'd like to discuss this further we can try to find a more appropriate venue for the discussion.HeKS
September 11, 2015
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HeKS, OT: As for the Trinity, John 1:1 seems fairly straight-forward. And I've always believed that God doesn't try to obfuscate meaning. Hence my position as a YEC, as well. I find it hard to believe that at the judgment, God is going to condemn us for not figuring out what He REALLY meant to say...drc466
September 11, 2015
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HeKS, If you cannot define "A" ("A" being supernatural), can you logically apply an A=A assertion? Hmmm, maybe. You're probably correct, though. Popperian's analogy was really more of an error in saying the Trinity is "A=3A", when it is really "A=3B", rather than trying to assert God was boundable/definable as an "A".drc466
September 11, 2015
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"We can't be absolutely certain that A=A." Are you absolutely certain of the statement above? Yes or no? If no, then admit that you cannot be absolutely certain about everything. If yes, then congratulations, you have achieved infallibility. Go on with your bad self.Barb
September 11, 2015
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