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Nihilism at TSZ

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Over at The Skeptical Zone Learned Hand (who goes by “Colin” there) has been psychoanalyzing me.  I’m a wall builder don’t you know:

I think one major motivator of the “you’re a liar!” style of debate they’ve adopted is community identification. I’ve been thinking of this as building a wall. The point of the conversation is largely, not entirely, to show that “we think like this:” and “they think like that:”, or more pointedly, “look how stupid and ugly they are.” It makes it very easy to avoid questioning beliefs, because we cling particularly to those notions that separate us from them. It identifies and strengthens the community of us by redefining it in opposition to the ugliness and stupidity of them. And once that wall is built, it’s extremely hard to dismantle. Why on earth would you stop and seriously consider something a stupid and dishonest person says? And what would it say about you if you agreed with them? The wall exists to separate.

LH has been drinking deeply from the postmodern Kool-Aid, and it has led him to say some staggeringly stupid things.  Remember, this is the guy who says he does not believe that the law of identity (A=A) is infallibly true.  I pointed out to him that such a claim is absurd, self-defeating and incoherent and only an idiot or a liar would assert it.  Instead of withdrawing his idiotic claim, he doubles down and asserts that the only reason I refuse to countenance it is because I want to build a wall to insulate myself from the those who don’t think like me so that I can “cling” to the notion that A always and without exception in all possible universes equals A.

It beggars belief.  I will not bother to defend the self-evident truth of the law of identity.  Why?  Robert L. Kocher tells us why:

It is a fact of life that you cannot win an argument with someone who is not sane. Sane bystanders may come to agree with your presentation, but you have no way of convincing someone who is not sane of anything. . . suppose that I say that the red pen I happen to have in my hand at this moment is a red pen. Further suppose that someone else says it is not a red pen, but is instead a flower pot, or a suitcase or a TV set. As a practical matter, I am unable to refute the assertion that what I am holding in my hand is not a flower pot. That does not mean that I’m incorrect when I say that it is a red pen. Nor does it mean that I am intellectually weaker than the other person who is arguing that it is not a red pen. Nor does it mean that his assertion that it is not a red pen is correct.

It means that I have no stronger argument than the red pen being in my hand. There is no stronger argument possible than the simple fact of the red pen being in my hand. No stronger refutation of the other person’s arguments is possible. At some point there must be agreement on what constitutes basic reality.

Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A.

No, the purpose of this post is not to refute Learned Hand, because to any reasonable observer Learned Hand’s insanity is self-refuting.  Instead, I want to consider why anyone would say such an idiotic thing.  He must know he is making a fool of himself, right?  No actually; exactly the opposite is true.  Kocher again:

It has become common for people who routinely engage in chronic psychotic levels of denial to consider themselves as being mental powerhouses, and to be considered by others as being mental powerhouses, because no one can break through their irrationality. This is often supported by a self-referencing congratulatory inner voice which says, “(guffaw) He REALLY didn’t have an answer for that one!” And they are correct. He didn’t have an answer.

Far from acknowledging the manifest folly of his statements, LH revels in it.  Only wall building rubes like Barry believe that A=A is infallibly, necessarily true; hyper-sophisticated intellectuals like myself are not so narrow minded.

So why do people like LH make such staggeringly stupid, borderline psychotic claims?  Well, LH feels free to psychoanalyze me, and I will now return the favor.  LH rejects the concept of absolute and infallible truth, because absolute and infallible truth acts as a check on his autonomous will.  If A always equals A, then maybe, just maybe, it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls, chop them into pieces and sell the pieces.  I assure you that it is no coincidence that LH rejects both assertions.  Because the rejection of any potential limit on LH’s autonomous will drives the nihilistic antinomianism at the core of his worldview.

Comments
Actually, to be fair to the Trinity doctrine, which I personally disagree with, when it comes to this:
Popperian: As for A=A, Is God one person or three?
This isn't really a problem because the Trinity doctrine doesn't say that God is both one person and three persons. It says that God is three persons subsisting in one being or substance. That is not a logical contradiction, whatever else one may say about that aspect of the teaching.HeKS
September 11, 2015
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@drc466 #61
Popperian @55 – …and now you’re asking why a supernatural entity is not bounded by the natural. Back to insane.
Actually, this is probably going to be the only time I agree with Popperian on much of anything, but I agree with his criticism of the Trinity doctrine, and it is one of the reasons that I don't accept it (the other being that I don't agree that it is a properly Biblical doctrine or the methods of argumentation used to claim that it is). The supernatural may be different from the natural, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to basic logic. After all, consider the fact that when theists say that God is omnipotent, they do not mean that he is able to do things that are logically impossible, and it is precisely the fact that many atheists miss this fact that leads to them making silly and ineffective arguments against God. It is perfectly acceptable for a Trinitarian to attempt to argue that the Trinity doctrine does not lead to logical contradictions and absurdities, as many have attempted to do, but they cannot simply say that it doesn't need to make any logical sense because it's supernatural. Take care, HeKSHeKS
September 11, 2015
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Barry,
HeKS, Good luck with work. I know the feeling. We hope to see you back soon.
Thanks a lot. I look forward to when I can start spending more time here again. Take care, HeKSHeKS
September 11, 2015
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Popperian @54 - You are asking Barry to explain why he doesn't accept Universal Insanity as a valid counterargument, to which he has replied "because it's insane". Seems complete enough to me. Popperian @55 - ...and now you're asking why a supernatural entity is not bounded by the natural. Back to insane.drc466
September 11, 2015
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@Aleta #50,
BA writes,
Semi related to the depressing Nihilistic belief, i.e. life is meaningless belief, inherent to atheism:
Nope, life is not meaningless, nor nihilistic, to an atheist. {/off-topic digression}
You misunderstand Barry's comment. He did not saying life is meaningless "to an atheist". Rather, he said the belief that life is meaningless is inherent "to atheism". Those are two different claims. The latter claim (Barry's) is true and is widely recognized to be so. The former claim (your interpretation) would only be true if all atheists held to the beliefs that were logically mandated by their worldview, which they manifestly do not.HeKS
September 11, 2015
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Starbuck @48, Congratulations on pointing out that Christians believe that an all-knowing, infallible and Holy Supernatural Creator Deity is the only Being with the Moral Authority over Life and Death. And is therefore a (supernatural) exception to Barry's (non-supernatural including) rule. You win. Take a cookie.drc466
September 11, 2015
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HeKS, Good luck with work. I know the feeling. We hope to see you back soon.Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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Aleta claims, "Nope, life is not meaningless, nor nihilistic, to an atheist." But alas, the evidence contradicts your denial of the nihilistic, life is meaningless, belief inherent to atheism. i.e. Numerous studies indicate that, across the board, atheists have a sadder life than theists. Thus while you may personally claim you are just as happy, or happier, than theists, the facts themselves don't back up your claim for atheism across the board. I already listed the higher suicide stat for atheists, but here are a few more to go with it:
Are Religious People Happier Than Atheists? - 2000 Excerpt: there does indeed appear to be a link between religion and happiness. Several studies have been done, but to give an example, one study found that the more frequently people attended religious events, the happier they were; 47% of people who attended several types a week reported that they were ‘very happy’, as opposed to 28% who attended less than monthly. In practical terms, religious people have the upper hand on atheists in several other areas. They drink and smoke less, are less likely to abuse drugs, and they stay married longer. After a stressful event like bereavement, unemployment, or illness, those who worship don’t take it as hard and recover faster. All of the above are likely to be beneficial to a person’s happiness. Additionally, religious people, as a result of their beliefs, have a greater sense of meaning, purpose and hope in their lives. http://generallythinking.com/are-religious-people-happier-than-atheists/ Are atheists mentally ill? - August 14th, 2013 - Sean Thomas Excerpt: "Let’s dispense with the crude metric of IQ and look at the actual lives led by atheists, and believers, and see how they measure up. In other words: let’s see who is living more intelligently. And guess what: it’s the believers. A vast body of research, amassed over recent decades, shows that religious belief is physically and psychologically beneficial – to a remarkable degree.,,, [I hope this next part doesn't upset too many people, but...] the evidence today implies that atheism is a form of mental illness. And this is because science is showing that the human mind is hard-wired for faith... religious people have all their faculties intact, they are fully functioning humans. Therefore, being an atheist – lacking the vital faculty of faith – should be seen as an affliction, and a tragic deficiency: something akin to blindness. Which makes Richard Dawkins the intellectual equivalent of an amputee, furiously waving his stumps in the air, boasting that he has no hands." http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100231060/are-atheists-mentally-ill/ Christians respond better to psychiatric treatment than atheists: - July 21, 2013 Excerpt: “Our work suggests that people with a moderate to high level of belief in a higher power do significantly better in short-term psychiatric treatment than those without, regardless of their religious affiliation. Belief was associated with not only improved psychological well-being, but decreases in depression and intention to self-harm,” explained Rosmarin. The study looked at 159 patients, recruited over a one-year period. Each participant was asked to gauge their belief in God as well as their expectations for treatment outcome and emotion regulation, each on a five-point scale. Levels of depression, well being, and self-harm were assessed at the beginning and end of their treatment program. https://uncommondescent.com/religion/if-religious-believers-are-crazy/ Atheism and health A meta-analysis of all studies, both published and unpublished, relating to religious involvement and longevity was carried out in 2000. Forty-two studies were included, involving some 126,000 subjects. Active religious involvement increased the chance of living longer by some 29%, and participation in public religious practices, such as church attendance, increased the chance of living longer by 43%.[4][5] http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_health Andrew Sims, past president of Royal College of Psychiatrists, has said: “The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land (from Is Faith Delusion).” more In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks. http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2015/03/video-lecture-by-john-lennox-explains.html Is Christianity Evil? (Mental Benefits of Christianity - Meta-analysis, 8:24 minute mark) - 2014 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dgESPmh-TxY#t=504 Gallup Poll of 676,000 shows the most religious Americans have highest well-being - February 2012 https://uncommondescent.com/religion/gallup-poll-of-676000-shows-the-most-religious-americans-have-highest-well-being/ Christians happier than atheists – on Twitter - June 28 2013 Excerpt: Two doctoral students in social psychology and an adviser analyzed the casual language of nearly 2 million tweets from more than 16,000 active users to come up with their findings, which were published in Social Psychological and Personality Science. The team identified subjects by finding Twitter users who followed the feeds of five prominent public figures. In the case of Christians, those select five were Pope Benedict XVI, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, conservative political commentator Dinesh D’Souza and Joyce Meyer, an evangelical author and speaker. In the case of atheists, the five followed feeds included Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Monica Salcedo and Michael Shermer - the latter two respectively being a self-described “fiercely outspoken atheist” blogger, and a science writer who founded The Skeptics Society. With the help of a text analysis program, the researchers found that Christians tweet with higher frequency words reflecting positive emotions,,,, Christians, they found, are more likely to use words like “love,” “happy” and “great”; “family,” “friend” and “team.” Atheists win when it comes to using words like “bad,” “wrong,” and “awful”,,, http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/28/christians-happier-than-atheists-at-least-on-twitter/
Of supplemental note: As any theist on UD readily knows from first hand experience, the atheist's disbelief in God is driven primarily by emotion not by any solid reason:
When Atheists Are Angry at God - 2011 Excerpt: "I’ve never been angry at unicorns. It’s unlikely you’ve ever been angry at unicorns either.,, The one social group that takes exception to this rule is atheists. They claim to believe that God does not exist and yet, according to empirical studies, tend to be the people most angry at him." per First Things Study explores whether atheism is rooted in reason or emotion - Jan. 2015 Excerpt: "A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers." https://uncommondescent.com/just-for-fun/fun-study-explores-whether-atheism-is-rooted-in-reason-or-emotion/
Appreciate this irony, Joseph Stalin, on his death bed, one of the greatest mass murderers in history, shook his fist at the God he did not believe in.
"A story I heard personally from Malcolm Muggeridge (that stirred me then and still does even yet) was his account of a conversation he had with Svetlana Stalin, the daughter of Josef Stalin. She spent some time with Muggeridge in his home in England while they were working together on their BBC production on the life of her father. According to Svetlana, as Stalin lay dying, plagued with terrifying hallucinations, he suddenly sat halfway up in bed, clenched his fist toward the heavens once more, fell back upon his pillow, and was dead." Ravi Zacharias, Can Man Live Without God, (Word Publ., Dallas: 1994), p. 26.
bornagain77
September 11, 2015
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Hi Popperian,
You seem to have confused denying something and simply saying we have no good explanation as to why it would be false.
I'm familiar with your views on epistemology, but I haven't confused anything. As I pointed out in my post, when it comes to the foundational laws of logic, you don't need to outright deny that they are true in order to uproot reason. All you need to do is assert that we should operate under an ongoing doubt that they are true. In other words, all one needs to do to burn down the universe of reason is say, "I have no good explanation for why that fundamental rule of logic would be false, and I can't conceive of any circumstance under which it might be false, but we should all continue to hold to the view that it could very well be false." As soon as we adopt the ongoing position that the very basic principles of right reason may very well be wrong, we have necessarily abandoned the bonds of reason itself, and we give ourselves an excuse to deny any conclusion we don't like, no matter how sound, on the grounds that logic and reason themselves may be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
Furthermore, your entire premise assumes that we start from foundations and work our way up instead of starting with conjectured guesses which we criticize. The latter is a philosophical view about knowledge.
No, you miss the point. You can attempt to criticize a foundational view and see whether or not you are able to do so successfully, but when you realize that you are not only unable to successfully criticize the proposition but that your very criticism becomes self-defeating, incoherent and absurd because it relies on the truth of the very thing you're criticizing, then it becomes madness to hold to the position that the proposition ought to be viewed as being subject to ongoing doubt.
In fact, you’re presenting a false dichotomy in this sense, you are justifying Nihilism, which is the very thing you claim to reject.
No, I'm not presenting a false dichotomy. Nor am I justifying Nihilism. But I am pointing out that holding to the position that the basic rules of logic should be viewed as subject to ongoing doubt does lead to Nihilism. I reject Nihilism, just as I reject the position that I'm saying leads to it. Anyway, I just dropped in to make a brief comment on this issue because I found it so bizarre, but I'm swamped with work (as I have been for months, and hence my absence here), so I don't know that I'll have time for any further responses. Take care, HeKSHeKS
September 11, 2015
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As for A=A, Is God one person or three? Was Jesus 100% and 100% God? How does that work? IOW, Is this supposed to be a good explanation for why A doesn't always equal A or why A ~ A?Popperian
September 11, 2015
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I'd also point out that Barry isn't really disagreeing with me. Specially, he's balking at the bad explanation I presented, which is what I'm suggesting that we do. Of course, he only wants to make me look "crazy" so he doesn't actually quote what I wrote before or after it, in which I identify it as a bad explanation. In fact, he doesn't even quote the bad explanation in it's entirety. Go figure. So, again, it's unclear if Barry has any criticism of what I actually wrote, other than "OMG those crazy atheists / materialists!"! Come on Barry, can't you do better than that?Popperian
September 11, 2015
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LH et. al., Barry's point is that if your only response to "A=A is infallibly true" is "well, it's possible that logic is completely, totally worthless at its most foundational level", you're basically saying that any and all further discussion of any topic anywhere is pointless. In the interest of not putting up a wall, let me allow you your assertion that no one can know infallibly that A=A. However, to accept the possibility that A=A is not infallible knowledge falls under the definition of insanity. So your response is basically "your point might not be true if all of human knowledge is founded on insanity". Let it be noted that LH is proposing Universal Insanity as a counter-argument to the belief that murdering children is always wrong. And that if you don't accept Universal Insanity as a possibility, you are a "wall-builder". Let me propose, LH, that accepting Universal Insanity is pointless as it is both self-defeating and conversation-ending in all aspects. And that placing Universal Insanity behind a Wall for purposes of logical discussion is the only Sane position one can take. Which still puts your position that we cannot know infallibly that A=A on the Insane side of the argument.drc466
September 11, 2015
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Barry: Similarly to Kocher’s red pen, I have no greater argument that A=A than the self-evident fact that A=A. (...) you don’t get an argument that we have infallible knowledge that the law of identity is true. As I have told you many times, no such argument is possible.
Popperian: So then, Barry, how do you know? If you really do know, then you should be able to explain how you know it.
Miss the point much, Popperian?Box
September 11, 2015
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Popperian,
Do you have any real criticism of what I wrote
Other than it is utterly irrational? No.Barry Arrington
September 11, 2015
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BA writes,
Semi related to the depressing Nihilistic belief, i.e. life is meaningless belief, inherent to atheism:
Nope, life is not meaningless, nor nihilistic, to an atheist. {/off-topic digression}Aleta
September 11, 2015
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So then, Barry, how do you know? Explain how that works, in practice. If you really do know, then you should be able to explain how you know it. "Oh my God", "I can't believe he said that", "All is lost", etc. is not an explanation as to how you know. Do you have any real criticism of what I wrote beyond that?Popperian
September 11, 2015
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it is also always evil to kill little boys and girls
You might want to let your god know:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. 1 Samuel 15:3
Starbuck
September 11, 2015
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F/N: I cannot but comment on this:
[LH, 20, to BA:] Are you asserting that you are infallible only when it comes to analytic propositions?
I cannot but notice the personalisation and subtext of accusation. First, no sane human being claims infallibility, which does not prevent us from being demonstrably right on certain matters. Even, before we rise to the matter of self-evident truth. Second, the matter at stake is self-evident truths, to wit, such as:
1: are understood to be so once one can correctly interpret what is stated (which is rooted in our experience of the world), 2: are further seen to be necessarily so, bound up in that meaning (as opposed to being derived from other truths), and 3: are seen as well to be necessarily true on pain of patent absurdity -- such, being readily apparent to one able to understand what is meant -- on their attempted denial.
The infallibility, in short, lies in the truth and in its accurate and undeniable conformity to reality. But that does not prevent some from missing the truth. Some, lack the experience and understanding. Others, have been indoctrinated or led to believe what runs contrary to reality and can be induced to reject truth and cling to even patent absurdities . . . until intense pain and puzzlement may lead to reconsideration. Yet others compound such indoctrination with emotional and socio-political polarisation so that they will not listen to those who would correct them. Some such become so entrenched in absurdities that not even pain will lead them to re-think . . . a false blame-shifting narrative can almost always be composed. This thread and others on much the same topic, sadly, illustrate that pattern. And recall, what is being disputed by objectors here is the self evident nature of the first principles of right reason. A saddening and grimly diagnostic sign of how far gone our civilisation is. In the end, BA at 10, replying to the insinuation of arrogance for the thought crime of thinking LOI, LNC and LEM are self-evident, is right:
your rhetorical device is transparent and unseemly. Everyone sees what you are trying to do. You are trying to equate certainty about infallible truth with arrogance and uncertainty about infallible truth as humility. Just exactly the opposite is true. There are infallible self-evident truths, and I bow to them and accept them and the limits those truths place on the exertion of my autonomous will. You arrogantly assert there are no infallibly certain limits on your autonomous will and then pretend you are merely being humble. That sound you just heard is the needle on the irony meter breaking the stop.
Whom the gods would destroy, first they rob of reason. KFkairosfocus
September 11, 2015
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Semi related to the depressing Nihilistic belief, i.e. life is meaningless belief, inherent to atheism:
Stephen Colbert: Where faith, logic and humor meet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5weP79J7bM&list=PLgoAlsvvzIyUl3wiVnjT_MRti6S-yz1hQ Stephen Colbert Opens Up About His Devout Christian Faith, Islam, Pope Francis, and More - Sept. 9, 2015 In a surprisingly candid interview, the new Late Show host discussed the role his faith plays in his comedy, Charlie Hebdo, and what he’d ask Pope Francis. Excerpt: The extensive exclusive interview, which is at times hysterically funny and profoundly serious, airs in full on Rosica’s interview program Witness on September 13. The Daily Beast got a sneak preview. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/09/stephen-colbert-opens-up-about-his-devout-christian-faith-islam-pope-francis-and-more.html
supplemental note:
Of snakebites and suicide - February 18, 2014 RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/of-snakebites-and-suicide/
bornagain77
September 11, 2015
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Two side notes: A=A is a self-evident truth. No doubt about it. Assuming that in order to qualify as an “A” something must have a distinct identity of its own, it is not self-evidently true that a red balloon qualifies as an A. A red balloon might be something that is part of a larger whole. Its existence might be dependent on e.g. consciousness. IOW in the case of a red balloon we must doubt our ability to make an accurate distinction between A and ~A. “Harming little boys and girls is wrong” is a self-evident moral truth. No doubt about it. What is not self-evidently true is that this moral truth applies to abortion. For instance, it might be the case that the unborn human spirit enters the fetal body in the later stages of pregnancy, in which case an early abortion arguably doesn’t cause actual harm.Box
September 11, 2015
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Folks, notice what is at stake here: the very first principles of right reason, or more properly, their acknowledgement. And notice who is on what side. KFkairosfocus
September 11, 2015
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LH, If you have a point kindly make it here. That the Zachriel collective may say something at TSZ does not address the point at stake. Further to this, in order to speak at all about such, note how many ways you have depended on:
I: Distinct, world-partitioning identity A such that W = {A|~A} -- LOI II: Antithesis between distinct, identifiable things and what is not the said item so that no x in W is both A and ~A, LNC III: Sharp dichotomy so once we have a populated world, W any x in W is in A X-OR ~A, i.e. one or else the other but not both and not neither, LEM
Where of course, we are drawing out what is implicit in the recognition or reality of distinct identity; this is not a proof that goes back of these laws. Indeed, as communication or thought in concepts or symbols or words depends critically on distinct identity -- just think of the core sentence structure NOUN | VERB OBJECT -- to try to articulate a proof of these laws that does not already implicitly use them is impossible, an absurdity on its face. The most we can do is point out the absurdities that stem from attempted denial. We are here dealing with the self-evident, foundational and pervasive. We simply cannot not use these things, or simply exhibit them by being in ourselves distinct beings, A point reflected in our having names. This is the real borg, except, we were long since absorbed and truly cannot escape. That is why the resistance to this is so futile and at the same time reflective of a fundamental irrationality that has haunted our civilisation for generations now. I have already pointed out that the claimed quantum level exceptions collapse. Let me clip UD WAC 38 again, to remind:
. . . at each stage [of the origin and early development of Quantum Theory], the scientists were comparing observations with what the classical theory predicted, and were implicitly assuming that if the theory, T, predicted observations, O, but we saw NOT-O instead, then T was wrong. Q: Why is that? A: Because they respected the logical law of identity [LOI], and its travelling companions, the law of non-contradiction [LNC] and the excluded middle [LEM]. If a scientific theory T is consistent with and predicts observations O, but we see the denial of O, i.e. NOT-O, O is first seen as distinct and recognisably different from NOT-O [LOI]. The physicists also saw that O and NOT-O cannot both be so in the same sense and circumstances [LNC], and they realised that once O is a distinct phenomenon they would see O or NOT-O, not both or something else [LEM]. (Where also, superposition is not a blending of logical opposites, but an interaction between contributing parents, say P and Q to get a composite result, say R; as we can see with standing waves on a string or a ripple tank’s interference pattern.) Going further, when such scientists scratched out their equations and derivations on their proverbial chalk boards, they were using distinct symbols, and were reasoning step by step on these same three laws. In short, the heart of the scientific method inescapably and deeply embeds the classic laws of thought. You cannot do science, including Quantum Theory science, without basing your work on the laws of thought. So, it is self-refuting and absurd to suggest that Quantum Theory results can or do undermine these laws of thought. In short, to then suggest that empirical discoveries or theoretical analysis now overturns the basic laws of thought, is to saw off the branch on which science must sit, if it is to be a rational enterprise at all. And, while it is easy to get lost in the thickets of quantum weirdness, if we trace carefully, we will always see this.
Foundational, self-evident, pervasive, inextricably intertwined and entangled with thought and actuality. Even Zadehan fuzzy sets with superposition or blending of characters depends on this: this process mix is 10% cold, 60% warm and 30% hot defines in context a distinct state, and is used to trigger a "crisp" distinctly identifiable control action. We are borg, we already absorbed you. KF PS: That error exists is self evidently undeniably true and constitutes a case of absolutely certain knowledge, as to attempt to deny it immediately shows that the set that collects errors is non-empty. Anything that denies the existence of truth, truth warranted to undeniable certainty, thus certain knowledge is overturned by direct counter example. Of course a most humbling counter, and one that gives the lie to the rhetorical projection that those who champion self-evident, certain, infallibly known truths are therefore intolerant theocratic, right-wing would be tyrants who imagine they have cornered the market on truth. If yardstick SET no 1 is that error exists, that instantly points to a need for recognition of that fact even though the declaration is itself utterly incorrigibly certain. Yet another reductio exists for those who imagine that everything is or must be uncertain . . . oops, are you CERTAIN of that? PPS: Note my longstanding, often referenced, discussion: http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-2-gospel-on-mars-hill-foundations.html#u2_bld_wvukairosfocus
September 11, 2015
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Learned Hand Your entire argument is this; "I know that I can't know" How do you know that you can't know?Andre
September 11, 2015
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I like the succinct way that Douthat put the insanity of the atheist Jerry Coyne's claim that he was an illusion:
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0
Nancy Pearcey took a particular delight, in her recent book 'Finding Truth', in finding quotes from leading atheists in academia who readily admitted that they thought they were merely illusions and were not really real persons:
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
And thus that is what you ultimately get when you deny the law of identity as it relates to properties of mind compared to properties of brain. You end up denying the most sure thing that you can possibly know about the world. Namely, you end up denying the fact that you really do exist as a real person, i.e. denying your own 'personal identity', and end up saying, with a straight face for all the world to hear, "I am a illusion".
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
All this "I am a illusion" stuff of atheists would be extremely funny but for the consequences involved in denying that you really are a person, i.e. a 'soul'. Simply put, the person forsaking their soul, and thus forsaking God, risk being separated from God for eternity: Verse, Quote, and Music:
Mark 8:36-37 "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" “You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.” George MacDonald - Annals of a Quiet Neighborhood - 1892 The Allman Brothers Band - Soulshine - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L3BYTS8uxM
bornagain77
September 10, 2015
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An interesting sidelight to this discussion on the law of identity is that J. Warner Wallace, author of the best selling book 'Cold Case Christianity', uses the law of identity to prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain.
How Consciousness Points to the Existence of God - J. Warner Wallace - video - Sept. 2015 (5 attributes of mind that are distinct from brain therefore the mind is not the brain) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ff1jiRpjko podcast - How Consciousness Points to the Existence of God - Sept. 2015 http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/how-consciousness-points-to-the-existence-of-god-cold-case-christianity-broadcast-42/ Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds - 01/30/2014 1) First-person access to mental properties 2) Our experience of consciousness implies that we are not our bodies 3) Persistent self-identity through time 4) Mental properties cannot be measured like physical objects 5) Intentionality or About-ness 6) Free will and personal responsibility http://winteryknight.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/
Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook, states the irreconcilable properties of mind to brain, via the law of identity, as such:
The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Michael Egnor - 2008 Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: - Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
Of related note, Alvin Plantinga humorously uses the fact that we can doubt the existence of our bodies, but not the existence of our minds, by imagining he has a 'beetle body', to highlight the fact, sans the 'law of identity', that the mind is not the same thing as the brain.
Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0
Moreover, the law of identity problem, in regards the mind and brain not being identical, becomes even worse for the atheist. At 37:51 minute mark of following video, according to the law of identity, Richard Dawkins does not exist as a person: (the unity of Aristotelian Form is also discussed) i.e. ironically, in atheists denying that God really exists, they end up denying that they themselves really exist as real persons.
Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video Quote: "It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren't in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe,, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn't undergone what metaphysicians call a 'substantial change'. So you aren't Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still. You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren't any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That's why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, "You know, I'm not really here". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s
And in the following article you can see that hesitancy on the part of atheists to openly talk about this glaring 'you are an illusion' hole in their worldview. In the following article, after playing some heavy politics, Richards Dawkins finally admits to this devastating inconsistency in his materialistic worldview:
Who wrote Richard Dawkins's new book? - October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins coyly agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that:
"consciousness is an illusion"
A few minutes later Rowan Williams seizes the opportunity and asks Dawkins:
”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?” Dawkins vs. Williams - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
Yet many atheists are more open than Dawkins appears to be and readily admit, for all to hear, that they believe they are merely illusions and that they do not really exist:
There is only one sort of stuff, namely, matter-the physical stuff of physics, chemistry, and physiology-and the mind is somehow nothing but a physical phenomenon. In short, the mind is the brain. Daniel Dennett "that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick - "The Astonishing Hypothesis" 1994 "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does." - A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10 "What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne
bornagain77
September 10, 2015
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Popperian
If 2 + 2 = 4 really is false, this would imply the operation of laws of physics . . .
Madness, sheer unmitigated imbecilic madness. God help us. Popperian, the truths of mathematics are necessary. The truths of physics are contingent. The difference, which seems to elude you, is critical. Barry Arrington
September 10, 2015
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It’s hard to see how your argument could be any more self-defeating. If you allow that the basic laws of logic and right thinking could even possibly be wrong, you utterly destabilize all reason and logic, because we have no possible way to know or find out that they either are or are not wrong, and so literally everything – every possible proposition or conclusion – becomes thoroughly and hopelessly suspect … like the conclusion of a deductive argument in which all premises could just as easily be false as true. The conclusion of such an argument could not be held with any certainty at all, and if the necessity of the basic rules of logic are denied, the same happens to every conceivable proposition.
You seem to have confused denying something and simply saying we have no good explanation as to why it would be false. Furthermore, your entire premise assumes that we start from foundations and work our way up instead of starting with conjectured guesses which we criticize. The latter is a philosophical view about knowledge. In fact, you're presenting a false dichotomy in this sense, you are justifying Nihilism, which is the very thing you claim to reject.Popperian
September 10, 2015
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Again, I would point out that Barry is making things more complex than they need to be. What Barry calls self-evident truths are simply extremely hard to vary explanations that we have no criticism of. What Barry wants is some special privileged category of ideas that are infallible and somehow immune from criticism. But that is arbitrary, unnecessary and overly complicated. From another thread..
Barry:
In the sense we are using it, “self-evident” is not a synonym for “apparent.” Instead, a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof.
First, I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say “understanding its meaning” and “known to be true”. Can you elaborate this? For example, how do you known when you “understand somethings meaning”? This seems equivalent to “know its true nature or purpose” which itself would be a question of truth. For example, one might say once they understand that the ultimate purpose of marriage is to join a man and a woman, then it is self-evident marriage is between a man and a woman. Is that what you’re suggesting? But how do you know the ultimate nature of something? Furthermore, this suggests it is marriages “man-ness and woman-ness” that makes it a marriage. That’s essentialism. Second, as you pointed out, sometimes things are simple. What you call self-evident truths are just ideas that are very hard to vary, and which we lack good criticism of. For example what would evidence that 2 + 2 = 4 look like? Imagine someone with a box containing two cupcakes adds two more cupcakes but does not end up with four. This scenario indicates that one of our assumptions are incorrect. The question is, which one and why? You will decide it is the the box of cupcakes system does not model two, four and addition. And you will have done so after comparing the two assumptions against each other. What would a good explanation that 2 + 2 does not equal 4 look like? I can’t think of one. Why can’t I? Because the theory that 2 + 2 equals 4, in reality, is extremely hard to vary without significantly reducing its ability to explain what it purports to explain. Go ahead, try to think of one. This property of being “hard to vary” is why mathematicians mistake it for being self-evident or directly intuited. It is indeed my opinion that 2+2 really does equal 4, so I’m not expecting to find a contrary theory that is nearly as good as an explanation. But this isn’t to say that such an explanation could not exist. For example, the hard science fiction book “Dark Integers” explores this very possibility, but for only very large integers. So, I would say there are no special cases of “self-evident” truth. Rather, there are explantations that are harder to vary than others. Comparing them is what we do in practice. Barry:
Another way of looking at it is that I know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd in the sense that it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true I would have to reject rationality itself.
If 2 + 2 = 4 really is false, this would imply the operation of laws of physics that would directly interfere with the creation of knowledge in ways we would consider malevolent. Specifically, you’d end up with very bad explanations something along the lines of “there really is no such entity as the number 4 because the proofs of mathematics are profoundly inconsistent and we do not notice because there are laws of physics that act on the neurons in our brains that cause us to unconsciously fill in the gaps in a way that allow us to ignore the physical absence of such entity.” So, it’s not that we can be absolutely certain that 2 + 2 = 4, but any explanation for why it would be false would itself be a bad explanation. We simply lack a good explanation as to why it would be false. Again, sometimes it’s simple. You’re making it complicated.
Popperian
September 10, 2015
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Learned Hand, There's a really bizarre kind of irony taking place here. The Laws of Identity, Non Contradiction, and the Excluded Middle are fundamental rules of logic itself. Without them, we cannot reason. Reason and argument simply becomes impossible, as does any kind of coherent meaning. And yet, here you are attempting to ARGUE that it could be possible for these fundamental rules of logic to be false and you are trying to make a DISTINCTION between axioms that merely work and propositions that are self-evident and necessarily (even infallibly) true. Don't you see that if those basic rules of logic could be false then your very argument becomes meaningless, as we lose any basis for insisting that the one option ("axioms that work but may be false") is not actually identical to the other option ("propositions that are self-evident and necessarily true")? It's hard to see how your argument could be any more self-defeating. If you allow that the basic laws of logic and right thinking could even possibly be wrong, you utterly destabilize all reason and logic, because we have no possible way to know or find out that they either are or are not wrong, and so literally everything - every possible proposition or conclusion - becomes thoroughly and hopelessly suspect ... like the conclusion of a deductive argument in which all premises could just as easily be false as true. The conclusion of such an argument could not be held with any certainty at all, and if the necessity of the basic rules of logic are denied, the same happens to every conceivable proposition.HeKS
September 10, 2015
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If I may interject for one moment… I think we are all missing the great gift that Learned Hand is providing us with: namely, a devastating pre-suppositional-type argument against naturalism (materialism). Consider: 1) As per Learned Hand, on naturalism and the Blind-Watchmaker Darwinism that naturally accompanies it, we must have at least some doubt that A equals A. (And I agree…after all, I would doubt anything that a mere primate’s mind, build from an a-rational, mindless, and blind source, came to believe.) 2) But it is the height of absurdity to have any doubt about the fact that A equals A. 3) Therefore, naturalism is absurd. Note that the traditional theist does not have the same problem at all: after all, an infallible and omnipotent mind could, by definition, provide infallible and certain knowledge to a fallible mind, even if we don’t understand how this could be. So the theist can easily and comfortably ground his certainty about the Law of Identity. And so, our very certainty about the Law of Identity is evidence against naturalism and for theism. Note, furthermore, that a person cannot be uncertain about the Law of Identity and the Laws of Logic. Why? Because the idea of ‘uncertainty’ is a type of thing. Therefore, if I am uncertain about the Law of Identity, then I am uncertain about whether my uncertainty is actually uncertainty. But that means my uncertainty could actually be certainty. So if I am certain about the Law of Identity, I am certain about it. But if I am uncertain about the Law of Identity, then I cannot actually be uncertain about it, because that uncertainty could actually be certainty. So the minute I am uncertain about the Law of Identity, I have to stop being uncertain about it, because I have no way of knowing if that uncertainty is actually uncertainty or if it is actually certainty. In essence, I have to be uncertain of my uncertainty. And then uncertain of that uncertainty, and so on endlessly. And so, while I can be coherently certain about the Law of Identity, I can never be coherently uncertain about it. And so, I cannot be uncertain about it.RDM
September 10, 2015
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