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Origin of life researcher on why evolution theory needs revision

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Readers will recall that I (O’Leary for News) have been recommending Suzan Mazur’s recent book, The Origin of Life Circus, an indepth look at what is and isn’t working in origin of life research.

Suzan MazurMuch recommended is her interview with Paul Davies’ collaborator at Arizona State University, physicist Sara Walker, who emphasizes the need to address the information aspect of life. Walker politely dismisses claim that maybe life and non-life aren’t much different, and says,

Yes, I like to think about life in terms of information flows and how information is being processed. And because information is so widely distributed in biological systems, I think there’s merit to the idea of autocatalytic sets. Living systems are systems, and we really need to have a systems approach to the origin of life. You can’t just start with a single molecule. That’s why I like the metabolism-first viewpoint because it really is about how systems act and evolve collectively.

Walker has made this type of point before, and it is a welcome change from the usual: Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

She also takes the risk of siding with those (Carl Woese included) who are negative about the Darwinian interpretation of evolution. Woese, perhaps the greatest 20th century biologist, the one who first identified the Archaea, regretted not overthrowing Darwin.

Suzan Mazur: How do you define evolution? You say “the concept of evolution itself may be in need of revision” and cite Carl Woese and Nigel Goldenfeld. What do you mean by evolution being in need of revision?

Sara Walker: I was thinking about Woese’s idea about early life being dominated by horizontal gene transfer, and that life was much more of a collective evolutionary process. It’s much harder, however, to get your head around the concept of a loose collection, a network evolving. Conceptually, the RNA world is much easier because we can keep imposing the idea of the Darwinian paradigm of an RNA replicator with vertical descent.

In short, RNA world was popular because it was Darwinian, not because it was well-founded.

Anyone familiar with pop science writing will recognize the phenomenon: Any given concept is invested with a certain sacred energy—for writers and readers— if Darwin either thought about it or could have imagined it or it fits in with something he thought.

This kind of thing would normally be thought of as religion but apparently the PR firm decided it was better marketed as science. Anyway…

Suzan Mazur: But you do think the concept of evolution is in need of revision.

Sara Walker: Yes. I think there are a lot of phenomena in evolution we haven’t investigated in as much depth as the standard genetic evolution paradigm.

It gets better. If you do not buy the book, you are missing the best parts.

Incidentally, science writer John Horgan’s recent defense of our right to disagree with experts nonetheless ruled out any serious criticism of the sort that Woese and Walker offer:

… he lists “evolution by natural selection” as one of the things that scientists have gotten “right, once and for all.”

This illustrates the seriousness of the problem. Horgan is reasonably skeptical—as all journalists should be—of establishment claims.

Except when it comes to Darwin.Then suddenly, the blinkers go on. The lights go out.

One must wish Walker well in her efforts to deal with this perennial thought blocker.

See also: Suzan Mazur interviews senior NASA origin of life scientist – It was stormy, and we aren’t talking weather here

and

RNA world would work if only life were simpler

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Well Curly Howard, here's your chance to prove us wrong. I say that you do not have one shred of evidence that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial functional information/complexity, you say you do have evidence. Man up and produce it! Talking Back to Goliath: Some Advice for Students in the Evolutionary Biology Classroom - Paul Nelson - September 30, 2014 Excerpt: (if neo-Darwinism) is true, we should be able to find in the scientific literature the detailed explanations for the origin of complex structures and behaviors, rendered strictly in terms of random variation plus natural selection. Guess what? Those explanations aren't there; they don't exist. If anyone doubts this, he should try looking for himself. Choose any complex structure or behavior, and look in the biological literature for the step-by-step causal account where the origin of that structure (that is, its coming-to-be where it did not exist before) is explained via random variation and natural selection. You'll be looking a long time. The explanations just aren't there, and this fact is well known to evolutionary biologists who have become disenchanted with received neo-Darwinian theory. When proponents of the received theory, such as Richard Dawkins, face the task of making random variation and natural selection work, they resort to fictional entities like Dawkins's "biomorphs" -- see Chapter 3 of The Blind Watchmaker (1986) -- or flawed analogies such as the "methinks it is like a weasel" search algorithm scenario. No one would have to employ these toy stories, of course, if evidence were available showing the efficacy of random variation and selection to construct novel complexity. "Research on selection and adaptation," notes Mary Jane West-Eberhard, a disenchanted evolutionary theorist, "may tell us why a trait persisted and spread, but it will not tell us where a trait came from....This transformational aspect of evolutionary change has been oddly neglected in modern evolutionary biology" (2003, p. 197). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/talking_back_to_1090141.htmlbornagain77
March 26, 2015
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Ah yes thank you for always weighing in on the subject, Joey. ....with your vast knowledge of biology and all. You and BA are probably neighbors up there on cloud-9.Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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Can't ignore what doesn't exist...Joe
March 26, 2015
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"Without one shred of evidence," BA? Just because you choose to ignore the research, doesn't mean it's non-existent. But hey, we all know you refuse to leave cloud-9 so enjoy your stay.Curly Howard
March 26, 2015
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Curly Howard you believe that you are a random cosmic mistake that nothingness spewed without free will or purpose. Your belief is a joke.JimFit
March 26, 2015
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New book by Abel:
Primordial Prescription: The Most Plaguing Problem of Life Origin Science - David L. Abel - book Excerpt Preface: Life pursues the goal of being and staying alive. Evolution has no goal, especially at the molecular/genetic/epigenetic programming level. Evolution is nothing more than the differential survival and reproduction of the fittest already-programmed, already-living organisms. Evolution only eliminates inferior phenotypic organisms. Evolution cannot prescribe or program. https://www.academia.edu/11382612/Primordial_Prescription_The_Most_Plaguing_Problem_of_Life_Origin_Science
bornagain77
March 26, 2015
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Curly Howard you claim "everything you guys say is a joke." What is truly a joke is that you really believe it possible, without one shred of evidence that it is remotely possible, that the unfathomable complexity being found in life, which our best engineers and computer scientists can only dream of imitating, can be had by purely unguided material processes. Indeed, it is beyond a joke, it is an absurdity that fully qualifies the person believing it as to being committed to the insane asylum. But alas, it seems the patients have now taken over the hospital.
Map Of Major Metabolic Pathways In A Cell – Picture http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AKkRRa65sIo/TlltZupczfI/AAAAAAAAE1s/nVSv_5HRpZg/s1600/pathway-1b.png A map of the entire human metabolic pathway - interactive map (high resolution) http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~turk/bio_sim/articles/metabolic_pathways.png Systems biology: Untangling the protein web - July 2009 Excerpt: Vidal thinks that technological improvements — especially in nanotechnology, to generate more data, and microscopy, to explore interaction inside cells, along with increased computer power — are required to push systems biology forward. "Combine all this and you can start to think that maybe some of the information flow can be captured," he says. But when it comes to figuring out the best way to explore information flow in cells, Tyers jokes that it is like comparing different degrees of infinity. "The interesting point coming out of all these studies is how complex these systems are — the different feedback loops and how they cross-regulate each other and adapt to perturbations are only just becoming apparent," he says. "The simple pathway models are a gross oversimplification of what is actually happening." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v460/n7253/full/460415a.html "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 2012 Excerpt: "This is bad news. Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year.",,, Even with shortcuts like averaging, "any possible technological advance is overwhelmed by the relentless growth of interactions among all components of the system,", http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html etc.. etc.. etc..
bornagain77
March 25, 2015
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39 Curly Howard March 25, 2015 at 9:09 am Goodluck in high school when you finally get there.
. How marvelously witty ! But seriously, don't quit your day job (like you even have one). .cantor
March 25, 2015
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Have a nice life cantor. Goodluck in high school when you finally get there.Curly Howard
March 25, 2015
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37 Curly Howard March 25, 2015 at 8:01 am Consensus among who, the genius scientific researchers here at UD?
. Now you're being just plain silly. Or more likely, you have a serious reading comprehension problem. No wonder you don't read books ! .cantor
March 25, 2015
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Consensus among who, the genius scientific researchers here at UD? Sorry if I can't pick up on the humor of others here at UD, it's probably because everything you guys say is a joke.Curly Howard
March 25, 2015
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35 Curly Howard March 25, 2015 at 7:36 am Wallstreet, pretty much everything I’ve ever heard from “nde research” has seemed either biased or unscientific.
. No no no. The OP's point was it's a consensus, so you don't get to judge its merits. Darwin's dittoheads have no sense of humor. .cantor
March 25, 2015
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Wallstreet, pretty much everything I've ever heard from "nde research" has seemed either biased or unscientific. Could you point me in the direction of the most convincing scientific paper that is the product of "nde research?"Curly Howard
March 25, 2015
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Cantor @#26 'Stooge sees no difference between a theory that makes incredibly bizarre, almost otherworldly predictions which, when we finally have the technology to test them, turn out to be true to 13 decimal places, on the one hand, … and on the other hand a theory that has continually has to be band-aided as new facts are uncovered. To equate these two theories is beyond laughable.' Don't be mean and horrible, Cantor!Axel
March 25, 2015
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It seems like Curley follows the scientific consensus of the so called experts. I like that. Curley does that mean that you now believe in the soul and life after death ? Cause the majority of researchers who have actually done nde research belive this . Curley I'm glad to see that you believe in a soul and the afterlife . Your almost there man . High five buddy ;)wallstreeter43
March 24, 2015
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Yeah, ok cantor. You are an A+ troll. I'll give you that. And I'll assume, as would anyone else, that you didn't actually read the book, seeing as you completely refuse to even briefly talk about some of the basic ideas in it. You've yet to even post anything above a middle school intelligence level, so I guess I should have expected as much.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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27 Curly HowardMarch 24, 2015 at 4:57 pm Yeah I was only paraphrasing you, cantor, there shouldn’t have been quotations. But either way it is pretty much what you said.
No, it was not.
How is it name calling if the person is actually acting exactly like a child?
How is calling you a moron name calling if you are actually acting like a moron?
We both know I can’t read the book and respond to you in a timely fashion
I never suggested you respond in a timely fashion. Take all the time you need.
so why not just answer the question yourself
I told you, I'm not going to do your homework for you. You need to learn to read books.
…you did read the book right?
So now you're calling me a liar. More name-calling. Very childish.
Or maybe you just really are desperate for attention.
Maybe you are just a glutton for punishment.cantor
March 24, 2015
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Denis [Noble] says "I have continued interaction -- debate, planning -- now with around 30 evolutionary biologists of various kinds, all interested in exploring where we go on from here." [source]
How about postulating that a library of all possible metabolisms, housed in a vast hypercube of 5,000-dimensional space, is accessible for organisms by some sort of "genotype network"? I mean, hey why not? Just to "establish a greater level of accuracy".Box
March 24, 2015
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Thanks ppolish. OT: But this is a pretty significant milestone and is worth posting:
Quantum experiment verifies Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance' - March 24, 2015 Excerpt: An experiment,, has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein's original conception of "spooky action at a distance" using a single particle. ,,Professor Howard Wiseman and his experimental collaborators,, report their use of homodyne measurements to show what Einstein did not believe to be real, namely the non-local collapse of a (single) particle's wave function.,, According to quantum mechanics, a single particle can be described by a wave function that spreads over arbitrarily large distances,,, ,, by splitting a single photon between two laboratories, scientists have used homodyne detectors—which measure wave-like properties—to show the collapse of the wave function is a real effect,, This phenomenon is explained in quantum theory,, the instantaneous non-local, (betond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected.,,, "Einstein never accepted orthodox quantum mechanics and the original basis of his contention was this single-particle argument. This is why it is important to demonstrate non-local wave function collapse with a single particle," says Professor Wiseman. "Einstein's view was that the detection of the particle only ever at one point could be much better explained by the hypothesis that the particle is only ever at one point, without invoking the instantaneous collapse of the wave function to nothing at all other points. "However, rather than simply detecting the presence or absence of the particle, we used homodyne measurements enabling one party to make different measurements and the other, using quantum tomography, to test the effect of those choices." "Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong." http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html
Wonder how long it will take for the Many Worlders to realize what hit them? :)
Quantum mechanics Excerpt: The Everett many-worlds interpretation, formulated in 1956, holds that all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a multiverse composed of mostly independent parallel universes.[43] This is not accomplished by introducing some new axiom to quantum mechanics, but on the contrary by removing the axiom of the collapse of the wave packet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics#Philosophical_implications
bornagain77
March 24, 2015
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BA77, here is the complete lecture from Dr Noble from which you posted an excerpt. Great lecture, in China, where it is ok to criticize NeoDarwinism... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QMVfafAYTMg Btw, Jerry did NOT like Dr Noble's Lecture waa. He did a blog post... https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/famous-physiologist-embarrasses-himself-by-claiming-that-the-modern-theory-of-evolution-is-in-tatters/ Dr Noble responds to Coyne http://starcourse.blogspot.com/2013/10/denis-noble-updates-his-q-partly-in.html?m=1ppolish
March 24, 2015
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Yeah I was only paraphrasing you, cantor, there shouldn't have been quotations. But either way it is pretty much what you said. How is it name calling if the person is actually acting exactly like a child? We both know I can't read the book and respond to you in a timely fashion, so why not just answer the question yourself....since you read the book. ...you did read the book right? Or maybe you just really are desperate for attention.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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I don’t see any difference between being “revised” and being “established to a greater level of accuracy.” Evolution is “revised” in the same way that you say those physics topics are “further established.”
Stooge sees no difference between a theory that makes incredibly bizarre, almost otherworldly predictions which, when we finally have the technology to test them, turn out to be true to 13 decimal places, on the one hand, ... and on the other hand a theory that has continually has to be band-aided as new facts are uncovered. To equate these two theories is beyond laughable. .cantor
March 24, 2015
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19 Curly Howard March 24, 2015 at 3:21 pm Cantor: “Of course I read it, but I’m not going to tell you anything about it!”
Lose the fraudulent quotes. I said read the book, then we'll talk. BA already told you about it. If you want more detail than that, read the book. .
I didn’t realize we were having a contest to see who could act more like a child.
More name-calling. The only contest was a contest you were having with yourself. This is typical behavior for people like you. . cantor
March 24, 2015
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I asked you what Noble says evolution should be replaced with. The correct answer was "I don't know," because...well...you don't know. I'd be willing to bet that what Noble thinks evolution should be replaced with is not far from the current theory, making your quote from him "that it should be replaced," pretty much pointless. The guy is a researcher it sounds like, of course he's going to talk up his own ideas and work. UDers continually fails to recognize that scientists usually have to overstate their work in order to be recognized.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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Curly Howard, you are only trying to defend your atheistic position and are not addressing the issue honestly. Thanks anyway, for giving me the opportunity to clarify the issue more clearly for the unbiased readersbornagain77
March 24, 2015
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BA, do yourself a favor and just stop. Do you not read what you write? Do you see the phrase "I think that" in the second sentence of that last post? Sorry BA, but nobody cares what YOU think, on this topic. If I ever need a good quote from scripture or a hymn, then I know who to call.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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Curly Howard, my answer was more than mere speculation. I've answered your question honestly that I think that Nobel thinks that neo-Darwinism should be replaced with something along the lines of 'natural genetic engineering'. If it is not exactly 'natural genetic engineering' that he wants to replace neo-Darwinism with, then it is something very close to it. The reason why he wants to replace neo-Darwinism (i.e. the modern synthesis) with 'natural genetic engineering' or something very close to it, is because, as a Physiologist, he recognizes that the 'bottom up' mechanism of random mutations to DNA is grossly inadequate to explain the 'directed' changes in the genome that are now evident, and he now thus seeks some other 'holistic/physiological' level of causation. In fact he debated the following topic:
video debate - Denis Noble and Sydney Brenner will propose and oppose respectively the motion that: “There is no privileged level of causation: an organism is not defined by its genome” http://www.virtual-liver.de/wordpress/en/2012/07/16/the-virtual-liver-network-keynote-debate/
In fact, on his site he states:
“The genome is an ‘organ of the cell’, not its dictator” - Denis Noble – President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences http://musicoflife.co.uk/
Moreover, in the video I cited, which you apparently did not bother to watch, he states:
Modern Synthesis Of Neo-Darwinism Is False – Denis Noble – video https://vimeo.com/115822429 ,, In the preceding video, Dr Nobel states that around 1900 there was the integration of Mendelian (discrete) inheritance with evolutionary theory, and about the same time Weismann established what was called the Weismann barrier, which is the idea that germ cells and their genetic materials are not in anyway influenced by the organism itself or by the environment. And then about 40 years later, circa 1940, a variety of people, Julian Huxley, R.A. Fisher, J.B.S. Haldane, and Sewell Wright, put things together to call it ‘The Modern Synthesis’. So what exactly is the ‘The Modern Synthesis’? It is sometimes called neo-Darwinism, and it was popularized in the book by Richard Dawkins, ‘The Selfish Gene’ in 1976. It’s main assumptions are, first of all, is that it is a gene centered view of natural selection. The process of evolution can therefore be characterized entirely by what is happening to the genome. It would be a process in which there would be accumulation of random mutations, followed by selection. (Now an important point to make here is that if that process is genuinely random, then there is nothing that physiology, or physiologists, can say about that process. That is a very important point.) The second aspect of neo-Darwinism was the impossibility of acquired characteristics (mis-called “Larmarckism”). And there is a very important distinction in Dawkins’ book ‘The Selfish Gene’ between the replicator, that is the genes, and the vehicle that carries the replicator, that is the organism or phenotype. And of course that idea was not only buttressed and supported by the Weissman barrier idea, but later on by the ‘Central Dogma’ of molecular biology. Then Dr. Nobel pauses to emphasize his point and states “All these rules have been broken!”. Professor Denis Noble is President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences.
Thus, contrary to what you falsely stated, it is more than mere speculation on my part as to what Noble seeks to replace Darwinism with. He is seeking a more prominent role for physiology in evolutionary biology. A more 'holistic' level of causation if you will He has, for the most part, and as best as I can tell right now, hitched his wagon to Shapiro's 'Natural Genetic Engineering'. And as I outlined already in post 12, 'natural genetic engineering' suffers the same exact flaw as neo-Darwinism does in regards of not being able to account for the origination of functional complexity/information. That is NOT a minor failing for the 'new' theory that is going to replace neo-Darwinism to put it mildly
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/origin-of-life-researcher-on-why-evolution-theory-needs-revision/#comment-555720
Moreover, although neo-Darwinists try to pretend as if Shapiro's work is just a minor 'revision' to standard neo-Darwinian theory (as you are doing right now Curly), Shapiro's work, in fact, directly contradicts the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism and in effect falsifies it. For instance, the belief that mutations are random, a staple of neo-Darwinian thought, is simply crushed within the 'natural genetic engineering' framework:
How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf
Also of interest from the preceding paper, on page 22, is a simplified list of the ‘epigenetic’ information flow in the cell that directly contradicts what was expected from the central dogma (Genetic Reductionism/modern synthesis model) of neo-Darwinism. Thus I've answered your question honestly Curly, now how about answering mine honestly? "what do you find ‘scientifically’, not personally, distasteful with Intelligence creating life on earth?"bornagain77
March 24, 2015
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Cantor: "Of course I read it, but I'm not going to tell you anything about it!" I didn't realize we were having a contest to see who could act more like a child. You win I guess. Good talk.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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17 Curly Howard March 24, 2015 at 2:24 pm There was nothing constructive about your post, cantor. apparently you take advantage of every chance you get to act like a child.
Apparently you consider reading a book to be unconstructive. I was wondering how you it would take for you to resort to name-calling. Predictable.
Have you read nobles book?
Of course I have. Duh.
How far is his position from the current theory of evolution?
Go read the book. I am not going to do your homework for you.cantor
March 24, 2015
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There was nothing constructive about your post, cantor. But apparently you take advantage of every chance you get to act like a child. Have you read nobles book? How far is his position from the current theory of evolution? How come you don't jump on BA's back for the same mistake I made? Are you that desperate for attention that you go looking for fights about spelling on the internet?Curly Howard
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