Quote of the Day

_{Barry Arrington
March 24, 2022

Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design}

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The quote of the day comes from commenter AaronS1978. In a comment to my last post, Aaron brings to our attention MMA fighter Fallon Fox, a man posing as a woman and fighting in the woman’s division. He has smashed the faces of multiple woman. Aaron writes that in our brave new world:

beating the crap out of a woman is OK as long as you think you’re a woman

Where are the feminists?

Comments

KF: Sc, I am not WJM.
That is obvious. WJM is a very good writer and is able to comment without being judgemental and ascribe motives to those he is responding to.Scamp_{March 30, 2022
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Ram, thecartoon of the cave man clubbing then carrying off a woman says something. Though, when it came to a real case, Osti, his fur suit was tailored, so he may have been more of a civilised person than we give credit. Notoriously, women civilise men. KFkairosfocus_{March 30, 2022
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KF @106 Yes, I agree completely. And I like to take it up a notch. It comes down to females (non-penis-holders) not wanting males (penis-holders) in their safe spaces and other spaces. And I support them completely. No penises in non-penis spaces. It's that simple. All the other words that people use around the "gender identity" issues just obfuscates the obvious. For crying out loud, the loony left won't even define what a "woman" is. I won't play the word games. It's penis vs non-penis. A lot of non-penis-holders don't want penis-holders in their non-penis spaces. It's that simple. --Ram #NoPenisesInNonPenisSpacesram_{March 30, 2022
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Perhaps it's just me but does anyone else find it ironic that some people who say they are following an absolute and objective morality can't say how they'd behave in a given situation? That just can't be right can it?JVL_{March 30, 2022
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Asuaber: You are wasting a lot of time and space whining, when you could just answer the question posed to you. So could you. But you won't because you want to control the conversation and think you can shame me by getting me to answer your question first. Nice try. But I'm not playing. I asked you first, you answer first. Or continue to be afraid to tell people what your answer is. Afraid someone is going to make fun of you? Accuse you of being foolish or contradictory? It must be a bit weird to have a strong conviction but be afraid to make it public. I've already hinted at mine in a reply to someone else; I'm not ashamed of my opinion. But you clearly are ashamed of yours. It's kind of amusing really. By the way, from past experience, I'm quite sure if I answer first you never will. 'Cause that's what you're like. Shame the evo-fool, that's your game. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.JVL_{March 30, 2022
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Kairosfocus: the little rhetorical game is over as at 101 above; an ironic coincidence of numbering. You know what the ciceronian first duties imply, and what duty to neighbour implies theologically. You are now on notice as to the core facts on human sex determination as a case of the XY system. You therefore know why I refuse to become a habitual liar about the nature of human sex, and you know that power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. Incredible. I asked you to clarify your own stance, to explain what it would mean for some actual people who are intersex, and you don't even have the courage in your position to state what you would do. You must be afraid to say . . . I wonder why that would be? Are you afraid it you would look foolish or out of touch? Are you afraid that you would look dictatorial or fanatical? Or, are you afraid that deep down you know that what you would choose to do could be argued to be anti-biblical? Only you can clear up this issue. But you won't. You don't think explaining how real people would get treated by you matters. Speaks volumes don't you think? That you can't be clear or straight. Your ruler's not crooked is it?JVL_{March 30, 2022
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As far as what should be done with biological intersex babies, the answer is that the parents have the legal authority to act on their child's behalf, including making long-term medical decisions. It's up to the parents. Perhaps the broader question is, how much power should lie in the hands of a parent? What rights would a true intersex have, wrt determining their own preferred sex later? Should the parents not have the right to assign a particular sex to an intersex baby with surgery and hormonal treatment?William J Murray_{March 30, 2022
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"You’re not playing fair." JVL, You are wasting a lot of time and space whining, when you could just answer the question posed to you. Andrewasauber_{March 30, 2022
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Ram @105, Thank you for your kind words.William J Murray_{March 30, 2022
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PS, it is no accident that we often speak of fair play, i.e. sports provides a context for ethical habituation and particularly marking the difference between fair competition and destructive unfairness. I do not doubt that some of the jacobins therefore view sports as strategic ground to be taken to advance their agenda. More people attend to sports nowadays than to the news, politics, public education . . . -- and possibly, to these combined. Church and compulsory public education in schools are the only two activities I can think of that have comparable attention and participation. So, I doubt that what we are seeing is accident, rather than agenda.kairosfocus_{March 30, 2022
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Ram, Men imagining or claiming themselves to be women have different bodily development and strength. The result is, the reasonable categorisation, value and validity of competitive sport vanishes, and the policy encouragements due to significance of sport for health, life, socialisation etc are warped by injection of power backed untruth. As the OP documents, for some cases that is a physical threat. This also sets a powerful precedent and sends a powerful, destructive message about objectivity and truth in our civilisation, on a topic that a great many people care about. 1984 here we come. There are no nine sided hexagons, and it matters. KFkairosfocus_{March 30, 2022
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WJM: 3. If sports are separated by gender, then what does it matter if someone is transitioning or has transitioned via surgery and hormonal therapy? Isn’t just self-identifying as one gender or the other enough? 4. Why not just allow men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they self-identify, and regardless of whether or not they are trans? Why would “considering yourself a woman” in your own mind be a substantive value worth considering? Aaannnnnnd, WJM's superior reasoning delivers the death blow once again. Bravo, WJM. --Ram #NoPenisesInWomensSpacesram_{March 30, 2022
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Scamp @97: I direct my posts at those whom I think I will most enjoy interacting with on the subject at hand, and who haven't indicated they do not value/respect my participation here (including those who have indicated they prefer I don't interact with them at all.)William J Murray_{March 30, 2022
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JVL, the little rhetorical game is over as at 101 above; an ironic coincidence of numbering. You know what the ciceronian first duties imply, and what duty to neighbour implies theologically. You are now on notice as to the core facts on human sex determination as a case of the XY system. You therefore know why I refuse to become a habitual liar about the nature of human sex, and you know that power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. That is why jacobinism fails everytime. I for cause see jacobins playing with yet another form of cultural marxism, hoping to destabilise sex, individual identity and independence of family, are anti civilisational misanthropes. That is different from people with medical and/or psychosocial conditions who may need help. Where, as bonus, it turns out the various systems for sex determination illustrate directly reproduction connected FSCO/I and islands of function in large configuration spaces. That is, human sex is designed not accident of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, so wrenching it out of alignment with its due end is wrong. Things can get broken, as several cases above illustrate, loss of intelligence and infertility cannot be helped, but people can be treated and helped. Acknowledging truth is the foundation of finding a right response and so we are back at the basic challenge: show us a nine sided hexagon. KFkairosfocus_{March 30, 2022
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Kairosfocus: As I noted, there are people with medical conditions, who should be treated as such But what do you mean by that? What gender pronoun would you assign to them? Would you encourage sex-assignment surgery for days-old babies with ambiguous genitalia? Sometimes you talk a lot without actually answering the questions asked.JVL_{March 30, 2022
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F/N2: More admissions from Wiki on sex determination systems:
The XY sex-determination system is a sex-determination system used to classify many mammals, including humans, some insects (Drosophila), some snakes, some fish (guppies), and some plants (Ginkgo tree). In this system, the sex of an individual is determined by a pair of sex chromosomes. Females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males have two different kinds of sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.[1] In humans, the presence of the Y chromosome is responsible for triggering male development; in the absence of the Y chromosome, the fetus will undergo female development. In most species with XY sex determination, an organism must have at least one X chromosome in order to survive.[2][3] The XY system contrasts in several ways with the ZW sex-determination system found in birds, some insects, many reptiles, and various other animals, in which the heterogametic sex is female. It had been thought for several decades that in all snakes sex was determined by the ZW system, but there had been observations of unexpected effects in the genetics of species in the families Boidae and Pythonidae; for example, parthenogenic reproduction produced only females rather than males, which is the opposite of what is to be expected in the ZW system. In the early years of the 21st century such observations prompted research that demonstrated that all pythons and boas so far investigated definitely have the XY system of sex determination.[4][5] A temperature-dependent sex determination system is found in some reptiles and fish.
Then,
The X0 sex-determination system determines the sex of offspring among: Most arachnids[1] with the exception of mites where a small majority are haplodiploid,[2] Almost all apterygote and Paleopteran insects (e.g., dragonflies, silverfish) Most exopterygote insects (e.g., grasshoppers, crickets, cockroaches) Some nematodes,[1] crustaceans,[1] gastropod molluscs[3] and bony fish,[4] notably in the genus Ancistrus[5] Several mammals A few species of bat, including the hammer-headed bat,[6] Buettikofer's epauletted fruit bat, Franquet's epauletted fruit bat, Peters's epauletted fruit bat, and Gambian epauletted fruit bat[7] The Ryukyu spiny rat and Tokunoshima spiny rat[8] In this system, there is only one sex chromosome, referred to as X. Males only have one X chromosome (X0), while females have two (XX). The zero (sometimes, the letter O) signifies the lack of a second X. Maternal gametes always contain an X chromosome, so the sex of the animals’ offspring depends on whether a sex chromosome is present in the male gamete. Its sperm normally contain either one X chromosome or no sex chromosomes at all. In a variant of this system, most individuals have two sex chromosomes (XX) and are hermaphroditic, producing both eggs and sperm with which they can fertilize themselves, while rare individuals are male and have only one sex chromosome (X0). The model organism Caenorhabditis elegans—a nematode frequently used in biological research—is one such organism. Some Drosophila species have X0 males.[9] These are thought to arise via the loss of the Y chromosome.
Also,
The ZO sex-determination system is a system that determines the sex of offspring in several moths. In those species, there is one sex chromosome, Z. Males have two Z chromosomes, whereas females have one Z. Males are ZZ, while females are ZO.
Then,
Haplodiploidy is a sex-determination system in which males develop from unfertilized eggs and are haploid, and females develop from fertilized eggs and are diploid.[1] Haplodiploidy is sometimes called arrhenotoky. Haplodiploidy determines the sex in all members of the insect orders Hymenoptera (bees, ants, and wasps)[2] and Thysanoptera ('thrips').[3] The system also occurs sporadically in some spider mites, Hemiptera, Coleoptera (bark beetles), and rotifers. In this system, sex is determined by the number of sets of chromosomes an individual receives. An offspring formed from the union of a sperm and an egg develops as a female, and an unfertilized egg develops as a male. This means that the males have half the number of chromosomes that a female has, and are haploid. The haplodiploid sex-determination system has a number of peculiarities. For example, a male has no father and cannot have sons, but he has a grandfather and can have grandsons. Additionally, if a eusocial-insect colony has only one queen, and she has only mated once, then the relatedness between workers (diploid females) in a hive or nest is 3?4. This means the workers in such monogamous single-queen colonies are significantly more closely related than in other sex determination systems where the relatedness of siblings is usually no more than 1?2. It is this point which drives the kin selection theory of how eusociality evolved.[4] Whether haplodiploidy did in fact pave the way for the evolution of eusociality is still a matter of debate.[5][6] Another feature of the haplodiploidy system is that recessive lethal and deleterious alleles will be removed from the population rapidly because they will automatically be expressed in the males (dominant lethal and deleterious alleles are removed from the population every time they arise, as they kill any individual they arise in).[3] Haplodiploidy is not the same thing as an X0 sex-determination system. In haplodiploidy, males receive one half of the chromosomes that females receive, including autosomes. In an X0 sex-determination system, males and females receive an equal number of autosomes, but when it comes to sex chromosomes, females will receive two X chromosomes while males will receive only a single X chromosome.
So too,
Temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) is a type of environmental sex determination in which the temperatures experienced during embryonic/larval development determine the sex of the offspring.[1] It is only observed in reptiles and teleost fish.[2][3][4][5] TSD differs from the chromosomal sex-determination systems common among vertebrates. It is the most studied type of environmental sex determination (ESD). Some other conditions, e.g. density, pH, and environmental background color, are also observed to alter sex ratio, which could be classified either as temperature-dependent sex determination or temperature-dependent sex differentiation, depending on the involved mechanisms.[6] As sex-determining mechanisms, TSD and genetic sex determination (GSD) should be considered in an equivalent manner,[7] which can lead to reconsidering the status of fish species that are claimed to have TSD when submitted to extreme temperatures instead of the temperature experienced during development in the wild, since changes in sex ratio with temperature variation are ecologically and evolutionally relevant.[6] While TSD has been observed in many reptile and fish species, the genetic differences between sexes and molecular mechanisms of TSD have not been determined.[6] The cortisol-mediated pathway and epigenetic regulatory pathway are thought to be the potential mechanisms involved in TSD.[6][8] The eggs are affected by the temperature at which they are incubated during the middle one-third of embryonic development.[9] This critical period of incubation is known as the thermosensitive period (TSP).[10] The specific time of sex-commitment is known due to several authors resolving histological chronology of sex differentiation in the gonads of turtles with TSD.[9]
Cross checking, we can see for our own species: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/sex-determination-humans
In humans, sex determination is the process that determines the biological sex of an offspring and, as a result, the sexual characteristics that they will develop. Humans typically develop as either male or female, depending on the combination of sex chromosomes that they inherit from their parents. The human sex chromosomes, called X and Y, are structures in human cells made up of tightly bound deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA, and proteins. Those are molecules that contain the instructions for the development and functioning of all life forms, including the development of physical traits and body parts that correspond with each biological sex. Humans who inherit two X chromosomes typically develop as females, while humans with one X and one Y chromosome typically develop as males. Sex determination is the beginning of the development of many characteristics that influence how a human looks and functions as well as the societal expectations that other humans have for each other. The process of sex determination begins after fertilization, a process where male and female germ cells fuse to form a zygote, or a single-celled, fertilized egg. Germ cells are those that carry genetic information from parents to offspring during fertilization. Male germ cells are sperm cells and female germ cells are egg cells. When the egg and sperm cells fuse, the zygote divides into multiple cells and later forms an embryo. The embryo includes a combination of part of each parent’s genetic information, including one sex chromosome from each parent. The combination of sex chromosomes that an embryo inherits from germ cells determines what biological sex it will later develop as.
Where, too, https://www.vedantu.com/biology/sex-determination
Numerical abnormalities of X and Y chromosomes are responsible for causing several conditions in human beings. Some of them are discussed below. Klinefelter Syndrome: A condition where 44+XXY karyotype gives rise to male individuals with a reproductive disability, tall structure, low IQ learning and reading disabilities. Triple X Syndrome: A condition where 44+XXX karyotype gives rise to female individuals who are fertile, with average IQ and stature more than that of an average female. Turner’s Syndrome: A condition where 44+X0 karyotype gives rise to female individuals with short structure. They are infertile as they have ill-developed reproductive parts. XYY Syndrome: A condition where 44+XYY karyotype gives rise to male individuals with increased stature, learning problems etc.
Then, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/sex-determination
Sex determination in animals is an integral part of reproduction. In general, sex determination describes the genetic and environmental processes that influence sex differentiation, whereas sex differentiation is the physical realization of these events in terms of testicular or ovarian development (Mittwoch, 1996). In other words, sex determination is concerned primarily with the determination of gonadal sex and the associated physiological processes that support gonadal development and function. Sex determination systems use different genes and regulatory mechanisms to establish activities in males and females to control a shared gene switch that regulates sexual development (Zarkower, 2001). The most highly evolved systems for sex determination in animals feature a single segregating pair of sex chromosomes that determine the sex, viz., XX/XY, as in placental mammals. Sex-determining genes, located in sex chromosomes, determine the cytodifferentiation of the indeterminate gametes to bring about sexual dimorphism into male and female gametes (see Bull, 1983). In Crustacea, sex determination is a complex process, involving a large network of interactions among genes as well as between environment and genes. The genes so far discovered to be involved in gonad differentiation pathway are predominantly transcription factors. For example, DMRT-1, DSX-1, and SOX-9, responsible for the induction and regulation of gene expression, emphasize the importance of regulatory factors in development and differentiation of the gonad (Farazmand et al., 2010; Zarkower, 2001; Kato et al., 2010). In Crustacea, target genes for these transcription factors are not known, but could well be responsible for gonad differentiation. Similarly, the genes and the target cells involved in the temperature-dependent sex determination also remain to be established in Crustacea. On the contrary, in vertebrates, these genes are related to temperature-dependent modulation of aromatase activity (Kettlewell et al., 2000). Crustaceans exhibit diversified mechanisms of sex determination but conform to the common genetically controlled sex determination pattern, found in other animals. Interestingly, genetic determination of sex in Crustacea varies vastly ranging from the most primitive, weak polygenic system to strong chromosomal sex determination. Sex determination can even differ markedly within a species and between closely related species in Crustacea. Significantly, different epigenetic factors (temperature and photoperiod) are known to exercise a strong influence on genetic sex-determining processes, yielding a wide variety of sexualization in these arthropods. Cytoplasmic sex determination is yet another system, found exclusively in crustaceans, with the possible exception of certain insects, like aphids (Legrand et al., 1987).
Then, lastly for now: https://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/biology/sex-determination-3-basic-types-of-sex-determination-processes/11957
Establishment of male and female individuals or male and female organs of an individual is called sex determination. It is of three types— environmental, genic and chromosomal. A. Environmental or Non-genetic Determination of Sex: 1. Marine mollusc Crepidula becomes female if reared alone. In company of a female, it develops into male (Coe, 1943). 2. Marine worm Bonellia develops into 3 cm long female if its larva settles down in an isolated place. It grows into small (0.3 cm long) parasitic male if it comes closer to an already established female (Baltzer, 1935). The male enters the body of the female and stays there as a parasite. 3. Ophryortocha is male in the young state and female later on. 4. In Crocodiles and some lizards high temperature induces maleness and low temperature femaleness. In turtles, males are predominant below 28°C, females above 33°C and equal number of the two sexes between 28-33°C. B. Nonallosomic Genic Determination of Sex: In bacteria, fertility factor present in a plasmid determines sex. Chlamydomonas possesses sex determining genes. Maize possesses separate genes for development of tassel (male inflorescence) and cob (female inflorescence). C. Chromosomal Determination of Sex: Henking (1891) discovered an X-body in 50% of the sperms of firefly. Y-body was discovered by Stevens (1902). McClung (1902) observed 24 chromosomes in female Grasshopper and 23 chromosomes in male Grasshopper. Wilson and Stevens (1905) put forward chromosome theory of sex and named the X- and Y- bodies as sex chromosomes, X and Y. Chromosomal or allosomic determination of sex is based on heterogamesis or occurrence of two types of gametes in one of the two sexes. Male heterogamety or digamety is found in allosome complements XX-XY and XX-X0. Female heterogamety or digamety occurs in allosome complements ZW-ZZ and Z0-ZZ. Sex is determined by number of genomes in haplodiploidy. Chromosomal determination of sex is of the following types: 1. XX—XY Type: In most insects including fruitfly Drosophila and mammals including human beings the females possess two homomorphic (= isomorphic) sex chromosomes, named XX. The males contain two heteromorphic sex chromosomes, i.e., XY. The Y-chromosome is often shorter and heterochromatic (made of heterochromatin). It may be hooked (e.g., Drosophila). Despite differences in morphology, the XY chromosomes synapse during zygotene. It is because they have two parts, homologous and differential. Homologous regions of the two help in pairing. They carry same genes which may have different alleles. Such genes present on both X and Y chromosomes are XY-linked genes. They are inherited like autosomal genes, e.g., xeroderma pigmentosum, epidermolysis bullosa. The differential region of Y-chromosome carries only Y-linked or holandric genes, e.g., testis determining factor (TDF) . . . . Human beings have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes. All the ova formed by female are similar in their chromosome type (22 + X). Therefore, females are homogametic. The male gametes or sperms produced by human males are of two types, (22 + X) and (22 + Y). Human males are therefore, heterogametic (male digamety or male heterogamety). Sex of Offspring (Fig. 5.23): Sex of the offspring is determined at the time of fertilization. It cannot be changed later on. It is also not dependent on any characteristic of the female parent because the latter is homogametic and produces only one type of eggs (22 + X), the male gametes are of two types, androsperms (22 + Y) and gynosperms (22 + X). They are produced in equal proportion. Fertilization of the egg (22 + X) with a gynosperm (22 + X) will produce a female child (44 + XX) while fertilization with an androsperm (22 + Y) gives rise to male child (44 + XY). As the two types of sperms are produced in equal proportions, there are equal chances of getting a male or female child in a particular mating. As Y-chromosome determines the male sex of the individual, it is also called androsome. In human beings, TDF gene of Y-chromosome brings about differentiation of embryonic gonads into testes. Testes produce testosterone that helps in development of male reproductive tract. In the absence of TDF, gonads differentiate into ovaries after sixth week of embryonic development. It is followed by formation of female reproductive tract. Female sex is, therefore, a default sex. 2. XX—X0 Types: In roundworms and some insects (true bugs, grasshoppers, cockroaches), the females have two sex chromosomes, XX, while the males have only one sex chromosome, X. There is no second sex chromosome. Therefore, the males are designated as X0. The females are homogametic because they produce only one type of eggs (A+X). The males are heterogametic with half the male gametes (gynosperms) carrying X-chromo- some (A+X) while the other half (androsperms) being devoid of it (A + 0). The sex ratio produced in the progeny is 1: 1 (Fig. 5.24). 3. ZW—ZZ Type (= WZ—WW Type). In birds and some reptiles both the sexes possess two sex chromosomes but unlike human beings the females contain heteromorphic sex chromosomes (AA + ZW) while the males have homomorphic sex chromosomes (AA + ZZ). Because of having heteromorphic sex chromosomes, the females are heterogametic (female heterogamety) and produce two types of eggs, (A + Z) and (A + W). The male gametes or sperms are of one type (A + Z). 1: 1 sex ratio is produced in the offspring (Fig. 5.25). 4. ZO — ZZ Type: This type of sex determination occurs in some butterflies and moths. It is exactly opposite the condition found in cockroaches and grasshoppers. Here the females have odd sex chromosome (AA + Z) while the males have two homomorphic sex chromosomes (AA + ZZ). The females are heterogametic. They produce two types of eggs, male forming with one sex chromosome (A + Z) and female forming without the sex chromosome (A + 0). The males are homogametic, forming similar types of sperms (A + Z). The two sexes are obtained in the progeny in 50 : 50 ratio (Fig. 5.26) as both the types of eggs are produced in equal ratio. 5. Haplodiploidy: It is a type of sex determination in which the male is haploid while the female is diploid. Haplodiploidy occurs in some insects like bees, ants and wasps. Male insects are haploid because they develop partheno-genetically from unfertilized eggs. The phenomenon is called arrhenotoky or arrhenotokous parthenogenesis. Meiosis does not occur during the formation of sperms. Females grow from fertilized eggs and are hence diploid. Queen Bee picks up all the sperms from the drone during nuptial flight and stores the same in her seminal vesicle. Formation of worker bees (diploid females) and drones (haploid males) depends upon the brood cells visited by the queen. While visiting the smaller brood cells, the queen emits sperms from its seminal receptacle after laying the eggs. As it visits the larger brood cells, it lays the eggs but the seminal receptacles fail to emit the sperms due to some sort of pressure on the ducts coming out of them. When a queen is to be formed the workers enlarge one of a small brood cell having fertilized egg and feed the emerging larva on a rich diet. Males are normally fertile haploids due to development from unfertilized eggs. Occasionally diploid infertile males are also produced from heterozygous females through fertilization.
Immediately, notice: SEX DETERMINATION SYSTEM, and its ties to onward reproduction. We are XY, which makes maleness and femaleness a crucial diversity for our species. Note too how different systems can be found in similar types of creatures, e.g. crustacea and snakes, guppies [XY] vs groupers and clown fish. Further, we contrast development at various life stages starting with embryonic. Of course the complex system can misfire, and there is obvious potential for lethality if bad enough. The misfires do not change the core. Going beyond, let us note how the objectors above do not elaborate across what Wiki has had to admit against known interest. The failure in this context is significant as manifestly multiple sex determination systems cuts against Darwin-style incrementalism, and indeed points to diversity of functionally specific elements beyond complexity thresholds of scale and irreducibility. Such points to active information as most plausible source of such diversity. That is, to intelligently directed configuration in a context where functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information here shows a clear case of widely diverse islands of function in configuration space. Note, how lethality for sufficient defect is on the table. So, we find a context that ties back to UD's primary focus and turs out to pose what seems to be significant evidence of design of sex determination thus reproduction in ways that frustrate Darwin-style tree of life incrementalism. Indeed, we credibly see here a scattered archipelago of islands of function. Food for thought. KFkairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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F/N: As a summary on differing systems of sex determination, Wiki for convenience:
The ZW sex-determination system is a chromosomal system that determines the sex of offspring in birds, some fish and crustaceans such as the giant river prawn, some insects (including butterflies and moths), the schistosome family of flatworms, and some reptiles, e.g. majority of snakes, lacertid lizards and monitors including Komodo dragons. It is also used in some plants where it has probably evolved independently on several occasions.[1] The letters Z and W are used to distinguish this system from the XY sex-determination system. In this system, females have a pair of dissimilar ZW chromosomes, and males have two similar ZZ chromosomes. In contrast to the XY sex-determination system and the X0 sex-determination system, where the sperm determines the sex, in the ZW system, the ovum determines the sex of the offspring. Males are the homogametic sex (ZZ), while females are the heterogametic sex (ZW). The Z chromosome is larger and has more genes, like the X chromosome in the XY system.
We can see the usual impositions, assertions and telling admissions in the onward discussion:
No genes are shared between the avian ZW and mammalian XY chromosomes,[2] and, from a comparison between chicken and human, the Z chromosome appeared similar to the autosomal chromosome 9 in humans, rather than X or Y, leading researchers to believe that the ZW and XY sex determination systems do not share an origin, but that the sex chromosomes are derived from autosomal chromosomes of the common ancestor. These autosomes are thought to have evolved sex-determining loci that eventually developed into the respective sex chromosomes once the recombination between the chromosomes (X and Y or Z and W) was suppressed.[3] The platypus, a monotreme mammal, has a system of five pairs of XY chromosomes. They form a multiple chain due to homologous regions in male meiosis and finally segregates into XXXXX-sperm and YYYYY-sperm. The bird Z-like pair shows up on opposite ends of the chain. Areas homologous to the bird Z chromosome are scattered throughout X3 and X5.[4]:?fig. 5? Although the sex-determination system is not necessarily linked to that of birds and definitely not to that of therian mammals, the similarity at least allowed for the conclusion that mammals evolved sex chromosomes twice.[5] The previous report that platypus has X chromosomes similar to that of therian mammals is now considered a mistake.[6] Bird and snake ZW are unrelated, having evolved from different autosomes.[7] However, the bird-like chromosomes of platypus may indicate that ancestors of snakes had a bird-like ZW system.[6]
Of course, there is no explanation about how such various forms of FSCO/I on a matter directly tied to reproduction and so survival, could come about by blind incrementalism. So, it seems that we here see yet another case of significant diversity on a pivotal matter crying out for a design inference. But of course, such is strictly verboten. So, maybe something worthwhile can be made of this latest jacobin push. An article on Groupers: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20467860/
Groupers are widely distributed throughout the tropical and subtropical waters of the world and are regarded as a favourite marine food fish. However, their large-scale aquaculture has been hindered by the rarity of natural males. Being protogynous hermaphrodites, groupers have been considered as study model for development and reproduction, especially for sex determination or sex differentiation, owing to the advantage that grouper gonad development undergoes transition from ovary to intersexual gonad and then to testis, and primordial germ cells and different stages of gametic cells during oogenesis and spermatogenesis are synchronously observed in the transitional gonads. Recently, a series of genes related to the reproduction regulation or sex differentiation have been identified in the groupers, mainly by researchers in China. One important finding was that the grouper gene, doublesex/male abnormal 3-related transcription factor 1 (DMRT1), is not only differentially expressed in gonads at different stages, but that it is also restricted to specific stages and specific cells of spermatogenesis. Grouper DMRT1 protein exists only in spermatogonia, primary spermatocytes and secondary spermatocytes, but not in the supporting Sertoli cells. Moreover, no introns were found in the grouper DMRT1, and no duplicated DMRT1 genes were detected. The finding implies that the intronless DMRT1 that is able to undergo rapid transcriptional turnover might be a significant gene for stimulating spermatogenesis in the protogynous hermaphroditic gonad. Additionally, we have found that grouper expression of sex-determining region Y-related high-mobility group-box gene 3 (SOX3) is a significant time point for enterable gametogenesis of primordial germ cells, because SOX3 is obviously expressed and localized in primordial germ cells. As SOX3 continues to express, the SOX3-positive primordial germ cells develop toward oogonia and then oocytes, whereas, when SOX3 expression is ceased, the SOX3-positive primordial germ cells develop toward spermatogonia. Therefore, we suggest that SOX3, as a transcription factor, might have more important roles in oogenesis than in spermatogenesis. Based on the findings, a hypothetic molecular mechanism underlying sex change is proposed in the hermaphroditic groupers, and some candidate genes related to the grouper sex change are also suggested for further research.
We are not groupers. KFkairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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Sc, I am not WJM. Kindly see my just above summary to JVL. It remains the case that we must respect that distinct identity is a first principle: A is itself, i/l/o its core characteristics, starting with a bright red ball on a table or the number 2. In that light, there is such a thing as a nature, not just a haphazard conglomeration of atoms in a shape, with mind and thoughts and morals as so much in the end meaningless noise or delusion or at the least suspect by default. Civilisation is a valuable but fragile major asset for human thriving and so we must be cautious in warranting changes; the track record of jacobinism since 1789 has been consistently misanthropic and destructive, often outright murderous. Ideological, lawless oligarchy is in the end simply another excuse for ruthless power drunk domination. And there are no nine sided hexagons. KFkairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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JVL, I have already sufficiently answered. Relatively rare medical conditions should not become an excuse for jacobins to obfuscate basic realities of our race to impose yet another ill considered misanthropic attempted remake of civilisation. Ever since 1789, we have repeatedly seen where such leads, at great and needless cost. We are not Grouper fish, we do not actually change sex given dynamics of XX vs XY chromosomes, despite chemical and/or surgical manipulation; where there has been a push to do same to children, who manifestly have not got the level of maturity to make decisions. As for playing at social roles, we need to recall that for millennia, women have known that they are a prey species for the deadliest predator ever to walk this planet, the human male, hence for instance the crime, rape, cultural norms of gentleman-ship and lady-ship, segregation of bathrooms, modesty codes, and much more. Also, the need for sex segregated sports. It is astonishing that such well established themes have to be re argued, thanks to the latest ideological pushes and of course the linked destructive errors of selective hyperskepticism: skepticism, manifestly is no true intellectual virtue, right reason, associated prudence and judiciousness seeking warrant and recognising lack thereof as secondary knowledge are. But Gresham's Law is not just about money, it seems poor thinking drives out good, too. As I noted, there are people with medical conditions, who should be treated as such, but even such must be reckoned in the context of the prey species issue and the pivotal fact of the centrality of maleness and femaleness to our race. Where, there are no nine sided hexagons. KF.kairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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Seversky@93, which begs the question, why did WJM direct his question to two people who are on record as stating that they don’t believe that transgendered should be allowed to compete in women’s sport?Scamp_{March 29, 2022
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Andrew: Correct me if I’m wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews.
Nope. That’s me.Scamp_{March 29, 2022
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Asauber: Correct me if I’m wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews. As I've already said: your dodge and deflect strategy is not something I'm going to play along with. Any objective reader who had read all my replies on this thread would probably already know what my views are. But you pretend not to. Or you haven't bothered to read things that are not specifically addressed to you. Whatever. You're not playing fair.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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Vividbleau: As to sports I like your thoughts as expressed in 78. Thanks for that. If they have both genitalia ( don’t know if this applies ) they should choose whatever bathroom they want. So, self-selection is okay for clear physical ambiguity? If it exists? In other words, in some situations, it's okay if the person decides what gender they should be considered?JVL_{March 29, 2022
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William J Murray/82
Whether or not you self-identify as a woman, and whether or not you have surgery and/or hormonal treatment is entirely irrelevant because the categories in sports are not based on gender, they are based on sex, which is determined by the presence of the XX or XY chromosome in your DNA, and hormonal therapy for the purpose of competitive advantage is not allowed. To be clear, using hormone therapy as a means to move into a category of sports where you will have a competitive advantage because of your XY biology is using hormone therapy to gain competitive advantage.
Agreed. And, just to be clear, acknowledging the existence of transgender individuals and making such minor accommodations for them as society decides are necessary are not going to shake Western civilization to its foundations and neither is it going to have any effect on happily cisgender males or females in the slightest.Seversky_{March 29, 2022
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"How does your worldview..." Correct me if I'm wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews. Andrewasauber_{March 29, 2022
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Asauber: You asked a question of KF. I asked a question of you. You keep dodging and deflecting. AND not answering questions. Too bad your strategy is so obvious. You address my queries (which you chose to participate in) and then I'll address yours. Or, you can keep running away. It's your call.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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JVL “How does your worldview think intersex individuals should be treated? Which bathrooms should they be allowed to use? Which sports categories should they be allowed to participate in? When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.” They, like men who think they are women , should be treated respectfully of course. Regarding bathrooms. If they have genitalia that should determine what bathroom they should use. If they have both genitalia ( don’t know if this applies ) they should choose whatever bathroom they want. As to sports I like your thoughts as expressed in 78. Vividvividbleau_{March 29, 2022
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No penises in women’s spaces. Period. Continued... https://youtu.be/FJfPqcD8RKM?t=461 --Ramram_{March 29, 2022
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No penises in women's spaces. Period. https://twitter.com/madeleinekearns/status/1505892843247841288 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0_BAqhL744&t=14s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcXTxl-Or0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhWo1AOrSrY --Ramram_{March 29, 2022
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"I asked a question. I expect, out of courtesy at least, that you reply to that after which I shall be glad to answer your question." JVL, You asked a question of KF. I asked a question of you. Andrewasauber_{March 29, 2022
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