Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Naturalists’ Conundrum

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Kantian Naturalist writes that almost all naturalists (including, presumably, himself) believe selection tends to favor true beliefs.

I don’t know why he would say this, because Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”) posits that selection favors characters that increase fitness as measured by relative reproductive fecundity. Per NDE, selection is indifferent the truth. It will select for a false belief if, for whatever reason, that belief increases fitness.

Now the naturalist might say that it is obvious that true belief must increase fitness more than false belief. Is it obvious? Consider the conundrum of religious belief from an NDE perspective:

1. By definition the naturalist believes religious belief is false.

2. The overwhelming majority of people throughout history have held religious belief.

3. Therefore, the naturalist must believe that the overwhelming majority of humans throughout history have held a false belief.

4. It follows that natural selection selected for a belief that the naturalist is convinced is false.

We can set to one side the question of whether a particular religious belief is actually false. The naturalist, by definition, believes they all are, and therefore he must believe that natural selection selected for a belief he thinks is false.

What is the naturalist to do? Indeed, if the naturalist concedes that natural selection at least sometimes selects for false beliefs, how can he have any confidence in his own conviction that naturalism itself is true?

Appeals to “the evidence” won’t save the naturalist here. Both sides of the religion issue appeal to evidence.

Comments
Box: I have been commenting on this blog from time to time for several years. This is the first time I have had someone sharing the same thread who shares my views. It's much less lonely. Thanks.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PDT
Bruce David: The question is, did He, could He in His perfect love, create a Hell? My answer is “No.” Not because I know God so well, but because I know what love is.
I fully agree, and I would like to add: No, because I want to love God and because I want to have a concept of the world that makes sense to me. And I cannot do either with a God who allows the existence of hell.Box
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
04:15 PM
4
04
15
PM
PDT
Phinehas you state: "Actually, in thinking on what sort of prophesy or miracle would help me believe a revelation, I think the explanatory filter might come in quite handy. If chance and necessity can be ruled out, you’ve definitely got my attention." This one definitely got my attention: Restoration Of Israel and Jerusalem In Prophecy (Doing The Math) - Chuck Missler - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8598581 Of related note, and extremely fitting to the Mayan calender "end of the world' hype going around, is this. It may surprise some to learn that the biblical ‘prophetic’ calender is more accurate than our modern day 'scientific' calender. The Gregorian calender uses a fairly complex system of leap days, seconds, and such, to keep accuracy with the sun, whereas, on a whole consideration, the prophetic calender uses a simpler system of leap months to keep accuracy to the sun. When these two systems are compared against each other, side by side, the prophetic calender equals the Gregorian in accuracy at first approximation for accuracy, and on in-depth analysis for extremely long periods of time (even to the limits for how precisely we can measure time altogether) the prophetic calender exceeds the Gregorian calender. i.e. God's measure of time exceeds the best efforts of Man to scientifically measure time accurately.,, But why am I surprised about this since God created time in the first place? :) Bible Prophecy Year of 360 Days Excerpt: Is the Biblical 'prophetic' calender more accurate than our modern calender? Surprisingly yes! Excerpt: The first series of articles will show the 360-day (Prophetic) calendar to be at least as simple and as accurate as is our modern (Gregorian) calendar. In the second part of our discussion we will demonstrate how that the 360-day calendar is perfectly exact (as far as our 'scientific' measurements will allow). http://www.360calendar.com/ Trust in God's Perfect Timing - photo http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s320x320/154716_433469916682215_100000576310394_1504581_1340154442_n.jpgbornagain77
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
Stephen:
We cannot choose chastity over lust because there are no sexy bodies to provide the occasion for overcoming temptation; we cannot choose generosity over miserliness because we have no assets either to hoard or distribute; we cannot choose God over the world because the world is no longer available to us.
Sex actually exists even when we don't have a physical body (see Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe). Generosity is not limited to sharing material things. One can be generous with one's time, one's attention, one's love, or one's praise, to name a few. We can choose to be with God or not, as you have already stated. You just claim for no real reason that that choice is denied once we die.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PDT
Phinehas:
In fact, if my inner knowing has learned anything, it’s how little it knows.
For what it's worth, in the spiritual traditions with which I am familiar, realizing that one knows nothing is the first step towards real knowledge. It has to do with understanding, finally, what knowledge is, thus opening the way for the veils to be lifted.
I also believe that God defines good, not my inner knowing, and if He created hell, then that’s a good thing whether I particularly understand it or not.
The question is not whether Hell is a good thing, given that He created it. The question is, did He, could He in His perfect love, create a Hell? My answer is "No." Not because I know God so well, but because I know what love is.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Box
I think we both agree that there are consciousness and experiences after death.
We do, indeed, agree on that point.
Experiences impact feelings and thoughts and so change people. What horrid mechanism is at work at the moment of death so this is all changed?
We form and shape our minds and wills in this world and, eventually what we are shaping hardens into a permanent state of existence in much the same way that molded clay is made permanent. In the process, we decide which goals are worth pursuing, what values are worth loving, and who, if anyone, we will serve. These decisions can be, for a while, tentative and soft, but over time, as they are tempered and tested through trials, temptations, joys, disappointments, successes, and failures, a pattern begins to emerge--the goods in process are starting to become the finished clay. The more we build, the harder becomes to change the shape of the clay. To be sure, it can happen but it becomes increasingly difficult to do. After death, it is impossible to change the shape of the clay because our final decision to not repent has made it too hard to reshape. Even if the clay was not hard, that is, even if we had the disposition to change, the opportunity for change has passed. We have also entered a new environment where the raw materials with which the builder could once have shapde his traits into a God-like character are no longer present: We cannot choose chastity over lust because there are no sexy bodies to provide the occasion for overcoming temptation; we cannot choose generosity over miserliness because we have no assets either to hoard or distribute; we cannot choose God over the world because the world is no longer available to us. One way or the other, we are what we have become. If we have made the wrong choices, our fate is sealed. As Dante described the warning at the entrance of Hell’s gates: “Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.”StephenB
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
KN:
Now, I should hasten to add, I agree with Kant against Hume, obviously; I agree with Kant that the general causal principle (GCP), “every event must have a cause” is valid a priori. But, I also hasten to add, Kant is also careful to stipulate that this holds for events, and events are temporal (and also, I think, spatial, though Kant doesn’t insist on that).
I used to struggle with how to think about this, though I have never actually studied it too seriously. But I think my hang ups used to look exactly as you describe your thoughts in 163. I think that my thinking about causality used to be anchored in material and efficient terms, to the exlusion of other perspectives. I think we can look at our spatio-temporal, every-day-world and life to see when it becomes deficient. If you are a reductionist-materialist sort, I think you can make the claims about causal "forces" "preceding" the universe being unknowlable, or nonsensical. In fact you might point to the very use of the word "preceding" to illustrate the fact. But given you are not such a rigid naturalist, I am not sure why you are not more open to a broader concept of causality, particularly given your admiration for Aristotle. It seems to me that more of reality is coherent if one adopts the view that causality enables, facilities, precedes space and time, rather than space and time giving rise to causality. To say otherwise is to prematurely shut down legitmite perspective and forms of inquiry, just as a reductionist might do in investigating life. Even prominent spokespersons for such [limited] views like Hawking and Kraus will say that a universe can be caused by fluctuations in quantum gravity vacuum fields and some such, except, they are not really CAUSED of course. Well which is it? Giving them the entailments of their mathematical models (without their associated unwarranted speculations and non-philosophical philosophizing), it seems entirely reasonable to say that the existence and nature of the quantum gravity vacuum field CAUSED/led to the universe's beginning. So now, rather than the universe as we experience it having a necessary existence, we have simply pushed it back a level to say that its "precursor" is actually what is necessary. (Do they stop there, assuming that the gravity fields do not warrant explanation? I am not sure. Is it a better place to rest necessary existence than a mindful necessary being? I for one can't see why.)MrMosis
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
BD:
For you, it isn’t my inner knowing that’s important, it is your own. How do you verify the veracity of a claimant to revelation if not through your own felt sense that “This is true.”?
Evidence. Miracles, signs, wonders, or plausible eyewitness accounts of such. Fulfilled prophesies. Correspondence between proposed reality and what is observed. Accuracy in describing the human condition. And the witness of the Spirit of God. Actually, in thinking on what sort of prophesy or miracle would help me believe a revelation, I think the explanatory filter might come in quite handy. If chance and necessity can be ruled out, you've definitely got my attention. As far as inner knowing goes, I tend to believe that the heart is deceitful and exceedingly rotten, so I hesitate to trust much of what it offers up. As I said previously, this particular lifetime has led me away from trusting my inner knowing and toward trusting what is transcendent. In fact, if my inner knowing has learned anything, it's how little it knows. I also believe that God defines good, not my inner knowing, and if He created hell, then that's a good thing whether I particularly understand it or not.Phinehas
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
02:50 PM
2
02
50
PM
PDT
Thanks, Bruce David -- I do what I can! :)Kantian Naturalist
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
I should think that the universe is therefore temporal by definition.
Yes, but that doesn't make the origin of the universe itself a temporal event.Kantian Naturalist
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
KN, re 163: That was very well argued. My hat's off to you, even though I actually agree with Stephen on this one.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
KN:
Of course I accept the consensus view of contemporary cosmology, that the universe is of a finite age. (13.6 billion years, according to the last time I checked.)
I should think that the universe is therefore temporal by definition.Mung
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
Stephen:
It is the accumulation of decisions and actions that solidifies one’s character. Death removes the opportunity to reverse the process.
That doesn't justify the assertion; it merely restates it. I repeat, you have given no warrant for that belief.
You have not yet answered my question: What does a loving God do with those who don’t want anything to do with Him? If you address that point, you will understand why Hell is consistent with a loving God.
I can easily accept that some souls might choose to exist separate from God, and that God would not interfere with that choice. What you have given no warrant for is the assertion that such a state would be permanent, that souls could not change their minds, and that a loving God would not take them back if they did so.
When our first parents sinned against God by refusing to obey Him, they destroyed the bond of love and trust between the Creator and His creatures. As finite beings, they did not have the standing to restore that relationship. It was necessary for God Himself to become man so that that relationship could be restored.
Why? God is omnipotent, is He not? Why didn't He have the power simply to forgive? What prevented Him from doing that? Why was it necessary to go through all the rigmarole of "becoming man" to restore the relationship? For that matter, what do the actions of my remotest ancestors have to do with my relationship with God, anyway? It's all sophistry, Stephen. Nothing more than a lot of statements which cannot be justified whose sole purpose is to defend an orthodoxy which makes no sense when one examines it closely.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
In re: StephenB @ 154 The principle of logic hold for all possible worlds, including those worlds that are empty (contain no entities), but that's completely different from saying that there are entities which necessarily exist. I don't see the contradiction between affirming the necessity of the principles of logic themselves and the contingency (non-necessity) of all particular entities, because logical principles aren't entities. On a minor point: Hume's position on causality wasn't that there isn't causation, and it wasn't that we don't believe in causation, but that we couldn't justify our belief in causation. That's why he concludes that our belief in causation is grounded in mere psychological propensities, what he calls 'habit or custom'. Now, I should hasten to add, I agree with Kant against Hume, obviously; I agree with Kant that the general causal principle (GCP), "every event must have a cause" is valid a priori. But, I also hasten to add, Kant is also careful to stipulate that this holds for events, and events are temporal (and also, I think, spatial, though Kant doesn't insist on that). So I take the GCP to read, "every spatio-temporal event must have some cause", and that's valid a priori. But the origin of the universe, as the origin of space and time, could not itself have been in space and time. So I don't think the GCP can apply to the universe as a whole. To treat the GCP as applying to the universe as a whole amounts to treating the universe itself as an object embedded within some larger spatio-temporal framework. So there is a space outside of space, and a time outside of time? That doesn't make any sense! Of course I accept the consensus view of contemporary cosmology, that the universe is of a finite age. (13.6 billion years, according to the last time I checked.) But I don't think that we can get to "the cause of the universe" by applying the GCP to the universe as a whole.Kantian Naturalist
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:45 PM
1
01
45
PM
PDT
Box asks: "What horrid mechanism is at work at the moment of death so this is all changed?" I don't know if I would call it 'horrid', yet from a scientific perspective there is a 'mechanism of eternity' ones enters into upon death: as noted here: Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony Moreover Box, there are two very different qualities of eternity between special relativity and general relativity as noted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-naturalists-conundrum/#comment-441792 It is also interesting to note that special relativity is found to 'merge' with quantum mechanics whereas general relativity does not 'merge' with quantum mechanics: Theories of the Universe: Quantum Mechanics vs. General Relativity Excerpt: The first attempt at unifying relativity and quantum mechanics took place when special relativity was merged with electromagnetism. This created the theory of quantum electrodynamics, or QED. It is an example of what has come to be known as relativistic quantum field theory, or just quantum field theory. QED is considered by most physicists to be the most precise theory of natural phenomena ever developed. In the 1960s and '70s, the success of QED prompted other physicists to try an analogous approach to unifying the weak, the strong, and the gravitational forces. Out of these discoveries came another set of theories that merged the strong and weak forces called quantum chromodynamics, or QCD, and quantum electroweak theory, or simply the electroweak theory, which you've already been introduced to. If you examine the forces and particles that have been combined in the theories we just covered, you'll notice that the obvious force missing is that of gravity. http://www.infoplease.com/cig/theories-universe/quantum-mechanics-vs-general-relativity.html Moreover, not to get into to many details, but Christ offers a very credible reconciliation between the two differing eternities of General and Special relativity here: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 http://vimeo.com/34084462 Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Thus, as far as science can tell us, there are two very different eternities and Christ is the bridge between them: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.bornagain77
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Phinehas:
Do you believe in God of the personal/omniscient/omnipresent kind?
Yes.
Why is it impossible that revelation could come from an external source and not an internal one??
I don't believe that. What I said was that there are multiple conflicting claimants to the title of revelation, and I named a few, which would be classified as external sources---the Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu holy books, The Book of Mormon, the Conversations with God series. The question is how does one choose which, if any to accept as genuine revelation? I believe that one's inner knowing, provided that one is able to access that faculty in this particular lifetime, is the surest resource with which to make that decision.
So what accounts for differences in one’s sureness and ability to recognize revelation? The sheer number of lifetimes one has experienced?
I believe that it is a combination of the number of lifetimes and how well we have used them. Different souls choose to progress at different speeds. Faster is not necessarily better, by the way. Some souls are eager to progress, others prefer to enjoy the ride at a more leisurely pace.
BTW, when and how did all of this get started?
God did it. Beyond that, I don't know. I would add that time as we experience it is a feature of this physical universe. Those who have or have had access to the non-physical realms and have been able to tell about it (people having experienced NDEs, channeled entities, God in the Conversations series) report that time doesn't exist in those realms, that there is only an eternal NOW in which everything occurs. Don't ask me to explain this; I don't fully understand it.
I can’t speak for previous lifetimes, but I have to say that in this particular lifetime, I seem to be growing less sure about my ability to access my inner knowing. Is that possible?
I suppose. But maybe it's just that my meaning for the phrase "inner knowing" is lost in the translation from my mind through the words on our screens to your mind. Maybe you simply don't recognize when you access the "still, small voice" that is your inner knowing.
Are all revelations not created equally? Other than your “inner knowing” is there anything else whatsoever that can verify the veracity of a revelation?
For you, it isn't my inner knowing that's important, it is your own. How do you verify the veracity of a claimant to revelation if not through your own felt sense that "This is true."?Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
@158
StephenB: It is the accumulation of decisions and actions that solidifies one’s character. Death removes the opportunity to reverse the process. Insofar as man’s final destiny is concerned, what one is at death is what one will always be.
Why would that be? I think we both agree that there are consciousness and experiences after death. Experiences impact feelings and thoughts and so change people. What horrid mechanism is at work at the moment of death so this is all changed?Box
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
Now BD's and Box's solution to the problem of evil is to, like Darwinism, deny that objective evil really exists, but unlike Darwinism, maintain that an infinitely loving and powerful God exists. This leads to a logical contradiction in that no action can be said to be a 'duty'. i.e. If whatever we do or however things turn out it is all perfectly good in the end anyway, and is really just for a learning experience for 'the evolution of our souls', how then can any reincarnation belief demand of us any specific duty for what is morally right or morally wrong? There simply isn't any warrant within the belief system for condemning the actions of another as evil (Hitler, Sandy Hook killer) for their actions, that may seem evil to us, only appear that way and are not really so for they could very well be merely 'perfectly good' learning experiences. I hold that it is impossible for any human to live consistently within this belief system in which justice does not have real purchase. (Though I'm sure many have tried to live consistently in it and failed). The belief system is basically at its core Denialism of the reality around us. i.e. if everything, even our learning experiences, is really perfect or good, then everything which exists ought to be perfect or good; a conclusion which seems wholly counter to our common experience that much in the world is very far from being so.bornagain77
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
Bruce
Nothing you have said gives any kind of justification for your assertion that death solidifies one’s character, that the soul is unable to make any changes after that point.
It is the accumulation of decisions and actions that solidifies one's character. Death removes the opportunity to reverse the process. Insofar as man's final destiny is concerned, what one is at death is what one will always be. Sow a thought; reap an act Sow and act; reap a habit. Sow a habit; reap a character Sow a character; reap a destiny.
It’s pure rationalization, Stephen, a transparent attempt to have it both ways—belief in a loving God and a belief in Hell. It doesn’t work.
You have not yet answered my question: What does a loving God do with those who don't want anything to do with Him? If you address that point, you will understand why Hell is consistent with a loving God.
You still haven’t answered my question regarding why, given your stated beliefs, “Without Jesus’ sacrifice, we would not have had the opportunity to co-exist with God at all.
When our first parents sinned against God by refusing to obey Him, they destroyed the bond of love and trust between the Creator and His creatures. As finite beings, they did not have the standing to restore that relationship. It was necessary for God Himself to become man so that that relationship could be restored. It is only by virtue of, and in association with, that restored relationship that we can hope to co-exist with God in heaven.StephenB
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PDT
It is very interesting how Theodicy (reconciling an infinitely good God with evil) has an overriding influence on worldviews. Both Darwinism and BD's and Box's worldviews have very peculiar ways of dealing with the problem of evil. First I will look at how Darwinism has dealt with the problem of evil. I was very interested to learn that neo-Darwinism is at its core not a proper science but is, in fact, primarily a Theodicy,,,
The Descent of Darwin - Pastor Joe Boot - (The Theodicy of Darwinism) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html “In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history's inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike "harder" scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture.” ? Jerry A. Coyne - professor of evolution at the University of Chicago Anti-Science Irony Excerpt: In response to a letter from Asa Gray, professor of biology at Harvard University, Darwin declared: “I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.” Darwin was “anti-Science”. When questioned further by Gray, Darwin confirmed Gray’s suspicions: “What you hint at generally is very, very true: that my work is grievously hypothetical, and large parts are by no means worthy of being called induction.” Darwin had turned against the use of scientific principles in developing his theory of evolution. http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/10/anti-science-irony/ Is evolution pseudoscience? Excerpt:,,, Thus, of the ten characteristics of pseudoscience listed in the Skeptic’s Dictionary, evolution meets nine. Few other pseudosciences - astrology, astral projection, alien abduction, crystal power, or whatever — would meet so many. http://creation.com/is-evolution-pseudoscience "nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin(ism) can be described as scientific" - Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, quote was as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture
The ultimate solution to the Theodicy at the core of Darwinian thought is to say that God and thus the problem of evil does not really exist in reality. But this line of thought for dealing with the problem of evil leads to a logical contradiction as Dr. Hunter notes here:
"The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is 'no evil and no good' in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution's acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution's reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution's real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter - Darwin's God - pg. 154 & 159 http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430118
Perhaps many may not believe that scientists would resort to using the problem of evil to justify a supposedly scientific theory but here are some instances where just exactly that has occurred: Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his 'excellent' lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would be expected to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue to support such a supposedly well supported scientific theory:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses theological argumentation in his book to support Darwinism and invites him to present evidence, any evidence, that Darwinism can do what he claims it can:
The Viability of Intelligent Design 3/3 - Craig vs. Ayala http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
And here Dr. Avise uses Theodicy:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species - Cornelius Hunter Excerpt: Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112] http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html
There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. What's more ironic is that Dr. Avise's theological argumentation from mutations for Darwinism turns out to be, in fact (without Darwinian Theological blinders on), a very powerful 'scientific' argument against Darwinism:
http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html?showComment=1339934899971#c8975476391609724285
bornagain77
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
Mung:
I assume you mean that they took that position before ending up in hell and that is the cause of their being in hell.
Not exactly. Prior to actually being in hell, they were becoming progressively committed to their radical selfishness and on their way to Hell, but the door was still open for reversal.
But again, if that’s the case, they were beyond God’s grace (effectively in hell) while still not yet in hell (actually).
To simply be a candidate for Hell and not yet be there is to still have the opportunity to escape it.
So I ask again, what’s the point of saying once they are in hell they are beyond changing their mind (The soul in hell cannot change her mind). That was the case before they ever got there. That’s why they are in hell.
If any person, whether young and pliable or old and rigid, is close to death, God would likely provide him with one last chance to make a final decision to remain selfish and self-centered or to change course and begin to love others as self. Whatever the circumstances, anyone in hell has, by virtue of that final prior decision, locked in their character forever and will never again be able to repent. It is not God's refusal to give them another chance that keeps them in Hell, rather it is (was) their prior decision to become the kind of person that can no longer repent. By virtue of that final decision to be their own God, their hatred of the real God has become intractable, which means that they are no longer candidates for heaven. They would be even more miserable in heaven than in hell since they hate God, their perceived competitor, even more than they hate hell. As Milton ascribed to the prince of fallen angels, "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."StephenB
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
[A) If God -> Revelation is possible -> Truth (writ large) is within reach B) If only flawed and limited beings -> ?????]
Actually, I agree with A and not B. My view is that we perfect beings (the image and likeness of God) incarnate on Earth for the purpose of forgetting and then slowly over many lifetimes remembering Who We Really Are.
Do you believe in God of the personal/omniscient/omnipresent kind? (What other kind could there be worthy of the name?) Or do you think "God" is a perfect concept (like the circle) who doesn't actually exist?
In order for this to work, there must be access to our essential nature, which does know the truth, but the access must be neither too easy nor impossible. This is what I refer to as our “inner knowing” of which BA is so disdainful.
There must be? Are you sure? Must is an awfully strong word. Why is it impossible that revelation could come from an external source and not an internal one? Because your "inner knowing" tells you so? It might appear to an outsider that the circularity in such a belief isn't limited to our life cycles.
As we experience many lifetimes, our ability to access our inner knowing becomes surer and surer, and it is this capacity that allows us to recognize valid revelation.
So what accounts for differences in one's sureness and ability to recognize revelation? The sheer number of lifetimes one has experienced? So, someone like me simply got a later start? BTW, when and how did all of this get started? I can't speak for previous lifetimes, but I have to say that in this particular lifetime, I seem to be growing less sure about my ability to access my inner knowing. Is that possible? What if someone becomes less and less sure over many lifetimes?
So do I have perfect access to my own inner knowing at this stage of my evolution? No. But there are some things of which I am very, very sure, and one of them is that a perfectly loving being would never create a Hell.
Are all revelations not created equally? Other than your "inner knowing" is there anything else whatsoever that can verify the veracity of a revelation? I'm reminded of the OT prophets. The people of Israel were actually given a litmus test for determining which prophets were God's prophets and which ones were false prophets. If someone prophesied about the future and what they had prophesied did not come to pass, then they were a false prophet. Then there was the showdown between Elijah and the false prophets in which God rained down fire on Elijah's sacrifice. Of course, in the NT, eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection helped validate the Truth of a new revelation. It sure would be nice to have something a bit more practical to hang onto when it comes to one's "inner knowing." Is there anything on offer?Phinehas
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
12:14 PM
12
12
14
PM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist:
I think we have a pretty good handle on what “cause” and “effect” mean when applied to events within the universe, but I worry that we don’t really know what those terms mean when applied to the universe as a whole. We say “the universe has a cause” as if it were perfectly legitimate to treat the universe itself as a kind of thing. But things, insofar as we have any cognitive grip on them at all, are all intra-cosmic entities. So here, when it comes to either asserting or denying that the universe has a cause (whatever that cause is!) we have what Wittgenstein would call “language gone on holiday”.
Excuse me, please, but I think that this position represents an attempted escape from rationality. The laws of thought are universal; they are not limited to the physical universe. How could it be otherwise? Consider the law of non-contradiction (psychology and epistemology) and the law of identity (ontology). Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time? We already know that the answer to that question, psychologically, epistemologically, and ontologically, is no. It would not matter whether Jupiter was inside or outside the universe, or the solar system, or any other system]. That is why we can also say, with confidence, that God cannot both exist and not exist at the same time. For Aristotle, or any rational personal, the location or state of existence of the thing in question is irrelevant to the question. So it is with the law of causality, which is logically connected to the law of identity. The location or state of existence is, again, irrelevant. If this was not the case, then there would be no such thing as rationality and there would be no reason to even make an attempt at rational discourse. This is where atheism goes off the rails. When Hume doubted the unbreakable connection between cause and effect, he was, in effect, abandoning reason. Indeed, the only way to challenge the existence of a self-existent, first cause is to deny reason’s rules. According to the evidence, the universe began to exist; it is not eternal. To question the existence of a prior or antecedent cause, therefore, is to militate against reason itself. It has nothing to do with “language taking a holiday.” If you don’t believe that, then you have nothing in common with Aristotle. Sorry.StephenB
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
@150
Bruce David: Why do you say this? What is the “one defect” to which you refer?
You wrote (129): “God, in His transcendent state, knows He is magnificent, but He cannot experience this (…)”. I was referring to this defect; the defect of not being able to experience his magnificence. I was assuming that this was the only defect. In my concept the scope of the learning process for human beings covers a lot more ground.Box
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
People in hell have, by virtue of having abused their gift of free will, become the kind of person who can no longer receive or respond to grace. God had nothing to do with it.
I assume you mean that they took that position before ending up in hell and that is the cause of their being in hell. But again, if that's the case, they were beyond God's grace (effectively in hell) while still not yet in hell (actually). So I ask again, what's the point of saying once they are in hell they are beyond changing their mind (The soul in hell cannot change her mind). That was the case before they ever got there. That's why they are in hell.Mung
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PDT
Bornagain77: re 146 Thank you for warning me. Like I said I appreciate your postings very much and admire your passion. I do not have any warnings for you. All will be well. Let’s trust in God and ourselves.Box
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
Box:
In your concept the learning process is more limited, because there is just one defect.
Why do you say this? What is the "one defect" to which you refer?Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
Stephen, re 145: Nothing you have said gives any kind of justification for your assertion that death solidifies one's character, that the soul is unable to make any changes after that point. It's pure rationalization, Stephen, a transparent attempt to have it both ways---belief in a loving God and a belief in Hell. It doesn't work. You still haven't answered my question regarding why, given your stated beliefs, “Without Jesus’ sacrifice, we would not have had the opportunity to co-exist with God at all.”Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
09:41 AM
9
09
41
AM
PDT
Mung
My point being, what difference does the location of the soul make? When God casts someone into hell he removes their free will? He removes their ability to repent? He doesn’t extend his grace towards them?
It isn't the location of soul that makes the difference but rather its disposition to receive the grace. We are all becoming something and, sooner or later, we will be what we become. People in hell have, by virtue of having abused their gift of free will, become the kind of person who can no longer receive or respond to grace. God had nothing to do with it.StephenB
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
09:41 AM
9
09
41
AM
PDT
KN:
I really don’t know what exactly I should say here. On the one hand, I of course think, “yes, obviously, every contingent entity must have a cause — that’s just the principle of sufficient reason!” On the other hand, I wonder — why must a contingent entity have an explanation? Why couldn’t contingent entities just be contingent, for no reason at all? I mean, look, I’m of a philosophical bent, and I understand how invocations of brute contingency are profoundly intellectually unsatisfying. But so what? Maybe the correct response is, “so much the worse for our intellectual satisfactions!”
I think you have given an excellent example of why it is that "rational" arguments generally fail to convince people who don't already share the beliefs of those who are making the arguments. There has to be agreement on the basic principles (axioms, in mathematical terms) from which conclusions are drawn in order for inferences to be persuasive. As often as not, the basic principles of the one making the argument are implicit and thus not even apparent.
With regards to abiogenesis, again, look, I’m not a biochemist or abiogenesis researcher, and maybe there are profound problems with my thought above. I don’t have answers to all of these questions. No one does. All I can do is work as hard I as I can, with the limited cognitive equipment I have, to work out the answers that best survive rational scrutiny in the community of inquirers. I like to think I’ve done a pretty good job so far.
As a philosopher, I think it would behoove you to look more deeply into the question of abiogenesis. It's more than just a question of not having the answers. There is very strong evidence that life simply could not have arisen through naturalistic means. If this is true, then it has profound implications for one's metaphysical position. Antony Flew abandoned his lifelong belief in and advocacy of atheism in favor of deism based on this issue and the "fine tuning" of the physical and cosmological constants. The question is, are you committed enough to your search for truth to be willing to put your basic philosophical position on the line and follow the evidence wherever it leads? If so, I would recommend Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer, as well as this article by Paul Davies and Sarah Walker (It's a free download).Bruce David
December 20, 2012
December
12
Dec
20
20
2012
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT
1 9 10 11 12 13 16

Leave a Reply