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The Naturalists’ Conundrum

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Kantian Naturalist writes that almost all naturalists (including, presumably, himself) believe selection tends to favor true beliefs.

I don’t know why he would say this, because Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”) posits that selection favors characters that increase fitness as measured by relative reproductive fecundity. Per NDE, selection is indifferent the truth. It will select for a false belief if, for whatever reason, that belief increases fitness.

Now the naturalist might say that it is obvious that true belief must increase fitness more than false belief. Is it obvious? Consider the conundrum of religious belief from an NDE perspective:

1. By definition the naturalist believes religious belief is false.

2. The overwhelming majority of people throughout history have held religious belief.

3. Therefore, the naturalist must believe that the overwhelming majority of humans throughout history have held a false belief.

4. It follows that natural selection selected for a belief that the naturalist is convinced is false.

We can set to one side the question of whether a particular religious belief is actually false. The naturalist, by definition, believes they all are, and therefore he must believe that natural selection selected for a belief he thinks is false.

What is the naturalist to do? Indeed, if the naturalist concedes that natural selection at least sometimes selects for false beliefs, how can he have any confidence in his own conviction that naturalism itself is true?

Appeals to “the evidence” won’t save the naturalist here. Both sides of the religion issue appeal to evidence.

Comments
"What is your warrant for assuming that the the laws which govern this physical universe are at all relevant to the way that the realm to which we go after we die operates?" Because the structure of reality is,,well,,, it is the structure of reality!,,, whereas what you imagine for how the afterlife should operate, according to your 'inner knowing, is,,, well, it is just you imagining, by your inner knowing, what the afterlife should be like.. If you don't mind, (and even if you do mind) I'll stick to what the structure of reality, as revealed by modern physics, is telling me over what your 'inner knowing' is telling me!bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Box: "I would argue that it is impossible to love God thinking that He is collaborating with the practice of torturing people for eternity." I've always understood that God doesn't wish for anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance,,, 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. Perhaps there is a lesson in BD's claim that,,, "my view of humankind is that we are all perfect beings" Contrary to BD, I hold that it is pretty obvious that there is not one 'perfect being' among human beings,,, Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Moreover, God is saving us from our sin,, John 3:16–18, and 36: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son....Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” ,,, From my perspective Box, what the sinner who has lost all self control to sin understands, but the sinner, who does not think he is 'really' a sinner, but who is under the delusion that he is controlling his sin does not understand, is that Jesus Christ had the full authority of heaven to relieve Himself of the horrid torment of the cross but instead chose to endure it, in its entirety, willingly, so that he might completely overcome sin, hell and death, in their entirety, for our behalf. Love is the only proper response on our part once the extreme gravity of the situation is understood. Luke 5:32 I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners and need to repent." Music: Heather Williams – Hallelujah – Lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX2uM0L3Y1A A bit more to reflect on here: The Contradiction of the Cross “On the cross, our false dependencies are revealed. On the cross, our illusions are killed off. On the cross, our small self dies so that the true self, the God-given self, can emerge. On the cross, we give up the fantasy that we are in control, and the death of this fantasy is central to acceptance. The cross is, above all, a place of powerlessness. Here is the final proof that our own feeble powers can no more alter life’s trajectory than a magnet can pull down the moon. Here is the death of the ego, of the self that insists on being in charge, the self that continually tries to impose its own idea of order and righteousness on the world. The cross is a place of contradiction. For the powerlessness of the cross, if fully embraced, takes us to a place of power. This is the great mystery at the heart of the Christian faith, from Jesus to Martin Luther King Jr., the mystery of the power of powerlessness. As long as I am preoccupied with the marshaling of my own feeble powers, there will be no way for God’s power to flow through me. As long as I am getting in my own way, I cannot live in the power of God’s way.” – Parker Palmer, The Promise of Paradox, Pg 46-47 http://www.findingrhythm.com/blog/?p=2183 as well: G.O.S.P.E.L. (Propitiation) – video https://vimeo.com/20960385bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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BA re #107: What is your warrant for assuming that the the laws which govern this physical universe are at all relevant to the way that the realm to which we go after we die operates?Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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No the urge to punish again and again is impossible to satisfy. Why is destruction of the soul not enough and get it over with?
I am far from certain that God has any such urges. I also have doubts that eternal souls can be destroyed.
And who can love such an image of God?
Who's asking anyone to love such an image of God? I will add my voice to MrMosis and BA77. Take a listen to the linked Tim Keller sermon. Since this is actually closer to what others here believe, do you think anyone can love THAT image of God?Phinehas
December 19, 2012
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[Revelation. A transcendent, omniscient being knows truth where a flawed and limited being does not. A transcendent, omnipotent being can reliably reveal truth, even to a flawed and limited being.]
I see. And where, exactly, did you meet this transcendent, omniscient, omnipotent being, and how, being limited and flawed, can you be certain that your assessment of those attributes is correct?
How can I be certain? I'm not. I have sufficient doubts to require faith. In any case, my purpose has not been to assert my own certainty, but to question yours regarding...
...the idea that God would create a Hell so contradicts the nature of God as to be utterly ridiculous.
...
You see, the problem is that it is you who must evaluate...what source or sources of truth are valid and which are not.
I don't deny the need for each of us to evaluate, only the insistence that such an evaluation must rely solely on our own flawed and limited faculties. It is here that I would once again question certainty in addition to pointing out the self-defeating nature of any such insistence. I maintain that all such evaluations needn't be equal. A) If God -> Revelation is possible -> Truth (writ large) is within reach B) If only flawed and limited beings -> ????? Someone who believes B making declarations about God's nature seems a bit silly. But I take it you believe neither A nor B, which still leaves me curious as to where exactly you were standing when you chose to make a declaration about God and His nature.Phinehas
December 19, 2012
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William:
Then why are you arguing? If perfect entities have “chosen” to have certain concepts and beliefs and views in order to experience them and the ramification thereof, what are you attempting to accomplish here?
It's a good question. Those among the viewers of this thread like SephenB, Bornagain77, Kairosfocus, and others who have clearly decided upon their beliefs and views and are sticking with them, at least for now, obviously will not change them based on anything I present, so there is really no danger that I could interfere with their purposes for having made those choices. That said, they have also chosen to present their views and argue for them on threads such as this, so clearly their purpose also includes exposing those views to the scrutiny of others such as me who disagree with them. Others, however, may be seeking answers, and may be open to new possibilities. I offer my views as an option for such people to consider. It would then kind of defeat the purpose if I didn't also defend them when they are attacked by fallacious arguments.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Bornagain77: So I don’t love God if I point out that hell is very real possibility for what we know about how reality is constructed???
I would argue that it is impossible to love God thinking that He is collaborating with the practice of torturing people for eternity. e-t-e-r-n-i-t-y … So not 10 years of torture, not 1000 years, not 1000.000 years. No the urge to punish again and again is impossible to satisfy. Why is destruction of the soul not enough and get it over with? And who can love such an image of God?
Bornagain77: But would it not be far more unloving of me to not warn people?
I was not questioning your love of people. I agree that it is very loving of you towards people to warn them for a God who you consider to be capable of eternal torturing.
Bornagain77: Moreover,(I don’t know if you are Christian, but if you are) if hell does not exist exactly why did Jesus die?
Maybe Jesus died and rose from the dead to show us that there is life after death. I think this is an extremely powerful message.Box
December 19, 2012
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Box, So I don't love God if I point out that hell is very real possibility for what we know about how reality is constructed??? But would it not be far more unloving of me to not warn people? Moreover,(I don't know if you are Christian, but if you are) if hell does not exist exactly why did Jesus die? If you can spare 1/2 an hour, this following video MrMosis listed previously is excellent for reconciling this seemingly irreconcilable contradiction between the love of God and the reality of hell: Tim Keller- Hell: Isn’t the God of Christianity an angry Judge? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmTAotnklKIbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
@Bornagain77. I appreciate your postings and admire your passion. But it is beyond my comprehension how anyone who claims to love God can think for one second that God is somehow connected to and in agreement with the practice of eternal torturing of people. In my book that is called blasphemy.Box
December 19, 2012
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Oh that's right BD, I forgot, it is just 'preferable' that Hitler did not murder 6 million Jews! What he did is not really evil according to your 'inner knowing'. Gotcha! ,,, Trouble is with all this 'inner knowing' of yours that is telling you that evil, and thus hell, does not exist, is that the best empirical evidence we now have tells us that there are two very different and distinct qualities of eternity that it is possible for a 'eternal soul' to go to upon death. Time dilation Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity: In Albert Einstein's theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized: 1. --In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop). 2.--In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - 'thought experiment' video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ One quality of eternity is the very ordered eternity at the speed of light and the other eternity is the very chaotic eternity at the event horizons of black holes: Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang? “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space." It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for appraoching the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a 'hypothetical' observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.) Approaching The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) As well, as with the scientifically verified tunnel for special relativity, we also have scientific confirmation of extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within space-time, to a 'eternal event horizon’ at black holes; Space-Time of a Black hole http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8 And, as with the tunnel being present in heavenly NDE's as a person 'accelerates at a horrendously fast speed' (Vicki Noratuk), we also have mention of tunnels in hellish NDE testimonies. A man, near the beginning of this video, gives testimony of falling down a 'tunnel' in the transition stage from this world to hell: Hell - A Warning! - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4131476/ As well the man, in this following video, also speaks of 'tumbling down' a tunnel in his transition stage to hell: Bill Wiese on Sid Roth – video http://vimeo.com/21230371 These consistent findings, that corroborate NDE testimonies, especially the hellish NDE tunnels and blackholes, should be fairly disturbing for those of us of a 'spiritual' leaning. BD,,, Now this is the best that we can make out from empirical evidence for what 'possibly' awaits our souls on 'the other side' after we pass away. Yet if your metaphysics were actually to be correct, of there being no possibility of hell, I should not have found two very different and distinct types of eternity above this temporal dimension, I should have only found one 'ordered eternity' above this dimension. Thus, you can trust you 'inner knowing' if you want BD, that is trying to tell you that you have no need to worry of the propitiation provided by Christ to stand before almighty God, who, by the way, created this entire universe by merely the words of His mouth, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and gladly accept the covering he has provided through propitiating sacrifice of Christ so that we will be able to stand in His holiness, and to dwell in His perfect presence: Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Evanescence - The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearchbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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BD said: Well, in the first place, my view of humankind is that we are all perfect beings who have chosen to experience limitation during our temporary sojourns here on Earth. Then why are you arguing? If perfect entities have "chosen" to have certain concepts and beliefs and views in order to experience them and the ramification thereof, what are you attempting to accomplish here?William J Murray
December 19, 2012
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BA:
Excerpt: People are able to detect, within a split second, if a hurtful action they are witnessing is intentional or accidental, new research on the brain at the University of Chicago shows.
Intentionally hurtful may equate to immoral in your mind. In mine it does not.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Phinehas: [But even if I grant your premise, what distinguishes your conclusions regarding the truth of reality from mine?]
Revelation. A transcendent, omniscient being knows truth where a flawed and limited being does not. A transcendent, omnipotent being can reliably reveal truth, even to a flawed and limited being.
I see. And where, exactly, did you meet this transcendent, omniscient, omnipotent being, and how, being limited and flawed, can you be certain that your assessment of those attributes is correct? Or am I mistaken? Perhaps you didn't actually meet this being. Perhaps you just read about him or her in a book written by other limited, flawed beings, or maybe someone, a likewise limited, flawed being, told you and you in your limitation and flawness believed him. You see, the problem is that it is you who must evaluate the what source or sources of truth are valid and which are not. There are many claimants to revelation---the Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu holy books, The Book of Mormon, the Conversations with God series, to name a few---and they contradict each other. Only you can decide for you which are genuine revelation and which are not. And if you are limited and flawed as you say, then how can you be sure that your evaluation is correct?Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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UH BD, I listed this empirical evidence,,, i.e. ,,, Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional, brain study shows – November 29, 2012 Excerpt: People are able to detect, within a split second, if a hurtful action they are witnessing is intentional or accidental, new research on the brain at the University of Chicago shows. So you are saying this evidence is false?? Oh that's right empirical evidence does not matter to you, your 'inner knowing' trumps all evidence,,, UMMM call me a foolish optimist but do you want to visit my basement to rigidly test this 'inner knowing' of yours that is telling you that evil does not exist??? I think I really can put a dent in this 'no evil' belief of yours! :) Cruel Logic – video Description; A brilliant serial killer videotapes his debates with college faculty victims. The topic of his debate with his victim: His moral right to kill them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qd1LPRJLnIbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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MrMosis, thanks for the Tim Keller link, he is a good pastor. Tim Keller- Hell: Isn't the God of Christianity an angry Judge? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmTAotnklKIbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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BA:
Although BD has no way of ever explaining the existence of moral evil in the world, since he insists there actually is no evil in the world,...
Now why would I need to explain the existence of something that I don't believe exists?
...he has no way to escape the fact that he himself is constantly evaluating the moral evil and goodness in the world around him.
And you know this about me how, exactly? The statement is false, by the way.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Still trying to get my arms around "Kantian Naturalist." I suppose you could be a "Kantian" and also a Naturalist if by "Naturalist" you mean what they meant in the 18th century--someone who studies nature. The more modern meaning of "naturalism," however, is a method of studying nature that excludes reference to transcendent forces. How could someone who called himself a Transcendental Idealist also be a naturalist of the second type? Kant did not agree with Hume that skepticism is king and God should be excluded from science. On the contrary; he tried to sneak God back into science through the "transcendentals." Kant was a synthetic philosopher and follower of Aristotle. The whole point of synthetic philosopy is that it is possible to discern transcendent qualities in immanent being. Without this idea, the constructive philosophy makes no sense whatsoever, and the Transcendental Aesthetic is an absurdity. Coleridge and Wordsworth clearly got this. So did Hegel. It's a mystery why more recent commentators think that Kant the Transcendentalist was an enemy to transcendent being.allanius
December 19, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist
I don’t see any in-principle, conceptual problems with the idea that living things arose when an autocatalytic set of molecules became enclosed in a semi-permeable membrane, and that basically is the “fold in being’ of which Merleau-Ponty spoke.
Do you have any in-principle, conceptual problem with the idea that a universe could pop into existence without the aid of a self-existent, first cause.StephenB
December 19, 2012
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(2) I don’t see any in-principle, conceptual problems with the idea that living things arose when an autocatalytic set of molecules became enclosed in a semi-permeable membrane, and that basically is the “fold in being’ of which Merleau-Ponty spoke.
There's no reason to believe that the molecules required for the auto-catalytic cycle could pass through this semi-permeable barrier (I hesitate to call it a membrane). There's no reason to believe that if the molecules could pass through the barrier that the integrity of the whole could be maintained (that the semi-permeable barrier would persist). There's no reason to believe that if the molecules could pass through the barrier and that the integrity of the whole could be maintained, that the system would be capable of evolving (for example, it lacks any mechanism of inheritance).Mung
December 19, 2012
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BD:
Well, in the first place, my view of humankind is that we are all perfect beings who have chosen to experience limitation during our temporary sojourns here on Earth.
So, we are perfect choosers prone to making flawed choices? That seems a bit self-defeating.
But even if I grant your premise, what distinguishes your conclusions regarding the truth of reality from mine?
Revelation. A transcendent, omniscient being knows truth where a flawed and limited being does not. A transcendent, omnipotent being can reliably reveal truth, even to a flawed and limited being.
Who is it besides you in your limited and flawed nature that decides for you that scripture is the correct authority (and not any of the other claimants—the Koran, the Buddhist scriptures, New Age thinkers, etc., etc.)?
The Spirit and the Word work together to establish a reliable source of revelation that supervenes the flaws and limitations of those who believe and trust. Fulfilled prophecy, eyewitness accounts, and miraculous signs all help testify to the reliability of this revelation.
The truth is that each of us is on our own when it comes to deciding who and what to accept as truth. It’s the human condition.
I doubt the veracity of this truth claim given its inherent self-referential issues. If a flawed chooser is truly on its own in choosing truth, why would I entrust my life to its choices?Phinehas
December 19, 2012
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Semi related note: How Can We Demonstrate that Object Moral Values Exist to a Person Who Holds They Are Illusory? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbeoe2_6qx4bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Footnote to Graham wanting to 'get back to reality': "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries'bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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My question: “How do you explain the emergence of these teleological properties?” Your answer:
It’s all about evolutionary love, babe!
Can you expatiate on this for us? Please do not leave out a brief description of the mechanism behind the emergence of real consciousness.Box
December 19, 2012
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In fact this line of thought is has a bit of history: i.e. the fact that we are conscious, is the MOST sure thing you can know about reality: "Descartes remarks that he can continue to doubt whether he has a body; after all, he only believes he has a body as a result of his perceptual experiences, and so the demon could be deceiving him about this. But he cannot doubt that he has a mind, i.e. that he thinks. So he knows he exists even though he doesn’t know whether or not he has a body." http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/philosophy/downloads/a2/unit4/descartes/DescartesDualism.pdf footnote on the epistemological failure of naturalism: BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory and The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video http://vimeo.com/34468027 Here is the last power-point slide of the preceding video: The End Of Materialism? * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as a explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible.bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Graham2, after attacking the man instead of the argument, you state: "As for the soundness of my faculties, they arent perfect, but good enough. Sure, we are prone to optical illusions, unrealistic optimism (all soldiers are sure they wont be the one to die) etc, but we function pretty well, well enough to survive." But Graham2, that is the entire point, how in the world do you know, on Evolutionary Naturalism, that you are prone to deceiving yourself? note: The following interview is sadly comical as a evolutionary psychologist realizes that neo-Darwinism can offer no guarantee that our faculties of reasoning will correspond to the truth, not even for the truth that he is purporting to give in the interview, (which begs the question of how was he able to come to that particular truthful realization, in the first place, if neo-Darwinian evolution were actually true?); Evolutionary guru: Don’t believe everything you think – October 2011 (Concluding comment) Interviewer: You could be deceiving yourself about that.(?) Evolutionary Psychologist: Absolutely. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128335.300-evolutionary-guru-dont-believe-everything-you-think.htmlbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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BD you claim: "I distinctly remember that the descriptions the majority of the NDEs experienced by Thai people reflected a vision of Hell and the judgment process that was decidedly non-Western," 'Horrific torment'?, 'demonic beings'?, 'decidedly non-western'? OK BD, as on sesame street, which one does not belong? BD, you can believe whatever you want, in fact you've shown that YOU WILL believe whatever you want no matter what the evidence says to the contrary on more than one occasion, but you are not entitled to your own facts!bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Graham2, you state: "UD is amusing for a while, but I find the ever-present religion tiring, and I just want to get back to reality." Sorry Graham2, but I don't think reality means what you think it means, if by 'reality' you mean a reductive materialism (Darwinian) view of reality. The 'Top Down' Theistic Structure Of The Universe and Of The Human Body https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NhA4hiQnYiyCTiqG5GelcSJjy69e1DT3OHpqlx6rACs/edit The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit i.e., much like BD's make believe world where he denies that evil is even present in this world, Graham2, your materialistic 'reality' that you believe you 'getting back to' is nothing more than a figment of your imagination!bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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sorry, I meant the last post to be addressed to BDbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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KN states: "I believe in a perfectly loving God, in Whom there is no room for vengeance, condemnation, or punishment. I really have no doubts about that." Thus KN is forced into the absurd position that evil does not exist, yet,,, Although BD has no way of ever explaining the existence of moral evil in the world, since he insists there actually is no evil in the world, he has no way to escape the fact that he himself is constantly evaluating the moral evil and goodness in the world around him. Moral evaluations of harm are instant and emotional, brain study shows - November 29, 2012 Excerpt: People are able to detect, within a split second, if a hurtful action they are witnessing is intentional or accidental, new research on the brain at the University of Chicago shows. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-moral-instant-emotional-brain.html Jeremiah 31:33 ,,,“I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. Basically BD ends up, with his 'inner knowing' that 'rings of truth' in a fantasy land of Denialism, a fantasy land he can't possibly live consistently in, on par, perhaps surpassing, the Denialism witnessed in many alcoholics.bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Graham2 Pardon, but your logical slip-up is showing -- Well Poisoning is a fallacy. You know or full well should know, that there is an empirically warranted inference to design on tested and reliable sign, and that this stands on its own merits and a scientific inductive exercise. It is interesting how often objectors to ID refuse to address this pivotal issue and instead want to project "religion" as a dismissive smear. Even while they fail to recognise their own ideological baggage. Do I need to say again that dismissing those who ques5ion evo mat views and agendas on long history [cf Plato in The Laws Bk X in light of the career of Alcibiades and co] and serious issues as "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked" is utterly inappropriate? Beyond that, as is always the case on matters connected to origins and our root nature, there are worldview level issues -- i.e., philosophical ones -- that obtain, and some of this will manifest itself in theological concerns. In this case, we have the issue of the worldview grounds of mind as accurately perceiving and reasoning and knowing, in sufficiently many cases to be worth thinking about. That is no minor issue, in a context where a dominant worldview -- evolutionary materialism -- has the challenge of facing (as opposed to ducking) the gap between cause-effect chains and ground-consequent ones. Please, cease and desist from playing bias laced well poisoning rhetorical games. KFkairosfocus
December 19, 2012
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