Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Naturalists’ Conundrum

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Kantian Naturalist writes that almost all naturalists (including, presumably, himself) believe selection tends to favor true beliefs.

I don’t know why he would say this, because Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”) posits that selection favors characters that increase fitness as measured by relative reproductive fecundity. Per NDE, selection is indifferent the truth. It will select for a false belief if, for whatever reason, that belief increases fitness.

Now the naturalist might say that it is obvious that true belief must increase fitness more than false belief. Is it obvious? Consider the conundrum of religious belief from an NDE perspective:

1. By definition the naturalist believes religious belief is false.

2. The overwhelming majority of people throughout history have held religious belief.

3. Therefore, the naturalist must believe that the overwhelming majority of humans throughout history have held a false belief.

4. It follows that natural selection selected for a belief that the naturalist is convinced is false.

We can set to one side the question of whether a particular religious belief is actually false. The naturalist, by definition, believes they all are, and therefore he must believe that natural selection selected for a belief he thinks is false.

What is the naturalist to do? Indeed, if the naturalist concedes that natural selection at least sometimes selects for false beliefs, how can he have any confidence in his own conviction that naturalism itself is true?

Appeals to “the evidence” won’t save the naturalist here. Both sides of the religion issue appeal to evidence.

Comments
Whose complaining?,, only pure motives enlightened one???bornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PST
BA:
But BD, why do you complain at all if evil does not really exist as you hold? Kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face aren’t you?
Whose complaining? I'm just giving you some good advice. Portraying CWG as the work of the devil will probably backfire if your purpose is to dissuade anyone who wouldn't reject it out of hand anyway from considering it.Bruce David
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
04:58 PM
4
04
58
PM
PST
But BD, why do you complain at all if evil does not really exist as you hold? :) Kind of cutting your nose off to spite your face aren't you?bornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PST
BA re 436 & 441: Oh, and by the way, your indictment of CWG as the work of the devil isn't going to get you very far. Why? Because the only people who might buy it are those who already believe in the existence of such a being. But those people will be extremely unlikely to consider my views with anything approaching an open mind, since they are already thoroughly committed to a conservative Christian viewpoint. On the other hand, people who have rejected the idea of a devil as an actual being could well be put off by your characterization of CWG, which smacks of rigid fire and brimstone Christian fundamentalism.Bruce David
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PST
BA:
Moreover BD, it is pretty pathetic that you would have to attack, by any means possible, the bible, so as to try to build up the case for CWG. CWG should stand or fall on its own merits, not on the supposed failings of the Bible. It is just another clue to the source for your true motives!
I pointed out that the Bible has no objective warrant for it being Divine revelation as evidence for my assertion that there is no objective warrant for any claimant to revelation. In 436, you made the assertion that one should not get into a debate with anyone who accepts CWG without first determining that it can be authenticated as being "from God". My response was to demonstrate that no work can be so authenticated, using the Bible as an example, since you obviously feel that the Bible can be so authenticated. Whether it is in fact revelation or not can only be determined by understanding its message and then deciding whether it has the ring of truth. But this determination will only be valid for the one making the decision, no one else. Each of us must make that determination for ourselves. Thus, I do my best to present what I see as the truth contained in CWG in the hope that others will be intrigued enough to read the books and decide for themselves. The only criterion that anyone can use to determine whether a work claiming to be revelation so qualifies is an affirmative answer to the question, "Does it ring true for me?" Conversations with God passes this test for me and a great many other people. Obviously, there are also many for whom it does not pass that test, but this is also true of the Bible and any other claimant to revelation you care to name.Bruce David
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
02:29 PM
2
02
29
PM
PST
BD: there you go again making this claim: "For another, as I have already pointed out, at least one prophesy in the Bible, by Jesus himself no less, failed of fulfillment" Yet the elephant in the living room prophecy which is throughout the Bible, of the diaspora and restoration of Israel, that you avoid like the plague,
Restoration Of Israel and Jerusalem In Prophecy (Doing The Math) - Chuck Missler - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8598581
that Jesus Himself also prophesied,,
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
,,,plays right into the hand of the prophecy that you claim was not fulfilled (the second coming). There simply is no other prophecy known to man that has this level of confirmation, especially given the over 2000 year time frame! ,,,As I said before a normal person would ask 'how long is a generation?" since Jesus was clearly speaking of the generation that saw the 'budding of the fig tree.' The second half of this video addresses that question:
Fall Feasts and the Budding of the Fig Tree with Doug Hamp - video https://vimeo.com/50687234
Of related note: It may surprise some to learn that the biblical ‘prophetic’ calender is more accurate than our modern day 'scientific' calender. The Gregorian calender uses a fairly complex system of leap days to keep accuracy with the sun, whereas, on a whole consideration, the prophetic calender uses a simpler system of leap months to keep accuracy to the sun. When these two systems are compared against each other, side by side, the prophetic calender equals the Gregorian in accuracy at first approximation, and on in-depth analysis for extremely long periods of time (even to the limits for how precisely we can measure time altogether) the prophetic calender exceeds the Gregorian calender. i.e. God's measure of time exceeds the best efforts of Man to scientifically measure time accurately.,, But why am I surprised about this since God created time in the first place? :)
Bible Prophecy Year of 360 Days Excerpt: Is the Biblical 'prophetic' calender more accurate than our modern calender? Surprisingly yes! Excerpt: The first series of articles will show the 360-day (Prophetic) calendar to be at least as simple and as accurate as is our modern (Gregorian) calendar. In the second part of our discussion we will demonstrate how that the 360-day calendar is perfectly exact (as far as our 'scientific' measurements will allow). http://www.360calendar.com/ Trust in God's Perfect Timing - photo http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s320x320/154716_433469916682215_100000576310394_1504581_1340154442_n.jpg
BD, As to your "Bart Ehrman" scatter gun approach to try to discredit the Bible.,, First I hold that Jesus himself to be the inerrant "Word Of God" (John 1:1-5), and I hold the Bible to be given to men who were 'inspired by God'.,, And even though fallible man have handled the Bible since its original authorship and multiple copies passed down to us, and therefore Bibles do have that mark of fallibility, there is still a remarkable 'watermark' to be found in the Bible that clears up many of the individual inconsistencies that you speak of, and, IMHO, provides a supernatural signature to it so as to still overwhelmingly warrant our respect to the validity of the Bible's testimony. This 'watermark' I speak of is that of 'undesigned coincidences':
Undesigned Coincidences (evidence for the historicity of the Gospels) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVLeC5HbSQ Accuracy Of The Bible - Feeding 5000 - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6745194 Alleged Contradictions in the Gospels by Dr. Timothy McGrew - lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJizWvoGCIg Audio Resources by Tim McGrew http://www.apologetics315.com/2012/11/audio-resources-by-tim-mcgrew.html?m=1 The Nativity Defended – Jonathan McLatchie – October 26, 2012 http://www.apologeticalliance.com/blog/2012/10/26/the-nativity-defended/
Moreover BD, it is pretty pathetic that you would have to attack, by any means possible, the bible, so as to try to build up the case for CWG. CWG should stand or fall on its own merits, not on the supposed failings of the Bible. It is just another clue to the source for your true motives!
If truly dictated by a spiritual being, this book is a thinly veiled attempt by Satan to sound like God, misquoting scripture and twisting everything around. Typical of Satan, the ideas are complicated, contradictory, and open-ended, and answers are often evasive. Preaching love and the “highest” choices and thoughts, it is the angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) sweet-talking us into believing we are God and can do anything we want. But Satan tips his hand too often. His hostility to Christ and his constant attacks on God’s word give him away. Conversations with God? Actually, just the opposite.
bornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PST
BA:
Before debating the ideas in this book with anyone who believes it, one should ask how can it be authenticated that this book is from God.
All I can say is, if you actually believe that the Bible can be authenticated to be "from God", then you are truly deluded. Your claim that fulfilled prophesy authenticates it falls way short of validity. For one thing, many ordinary people have correctly predicted future events in detail. For another, as I have already pointed out, at least one prophesy in the Bible, by Jesus himself no less, failed of fulfillment. All fulfilled prophesy indicates is that one or more of the authors of the many books of the Bible (or someone whose words they were reporting) was able to predict the future. That's it. It is far from proof that the Bible is revelation. Furthermore, the Bible is full of contradictions---thousands of them. Most are not essential to the message, it is true, but so what. If the Bible is truly "from God", then there should be no contradictions at all. If the Bible is the inerrant word of God (and what other kind could there be, coming from Him?), then it should have no errors, period. That's what "inerrant" means. Any contradiction at all, even if it is regarding the number of soldiers in an army or the dates of the reign of some king, still means that at least one of those numbers or dates is in error. Furthermore, some of the contradictions are significant. For example, the two versions of the circumstances of Jesus birth conflict with each other, as do all four versions of what Jesus did and said on his way to Calgary. The Bible even contradicts itself on what is required to get into Heaven and avoid Hell. Jesus in the "separating the sheep from the goats" passage in Matthew states that what is required is good works---being kind to others. Paul, on the other hand warns that only acceptance of Jesus can get you into Heaven. The truth is that none of the myriad claimants to revelation---the Bible, the Koran, the Tao Te Ching, the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu holy books, the Book of Mormon, the writings of the Bahá'í Faith, Conversations with God, the philosphy of Ibn al Arabi, to name a few---can be authenticated in any other way than by an affirmative answer to the question, "Does it ring true to me?" It's personal. Each of us must decide for ourselves which, if any, claimant to revelation we regard as true. There is no valid test that can make an objective distinction between that which is valid revelation and that which only claims to be so.Bruce David
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PST
CS, Yes, I know. The Christian support for yet another Jewish holocaust is abhorrent to me. A future temple in Jerusalem where animal sacrifices are offered is abhorrent to God. That's why the Second Temple was destroyed. But where did Jesus prophecy a third temple would be built and a third destruction? Where did any of the apostles? The New Testament is clear that the earthly temple in Jerusalem was being replaced.Mung
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
12:09 PM
12
12
09
PM
PST
Mung to B.A.: Do you think the temple is going to be rebuilt and then destroyed a third time?
This is a widespread view amongst many evangelicals and orthodox Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_TempleCentralScrutinizer
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PST
Dr. John Weldon: "[Monism's] cultural acceptance would destroy both individual and societal purpose in life. The Eastern religions... deify man, depersonalize God, make the creation an 'illusion,' and justify and promote social apathy, to name just several serious consequences. India... is supposed to be the land of perpetual spiritual enlightenment...[but] one needs only to examine the cultures in which the concept of God as a personal Creator has been rejected to see the unhappy results." http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-monism.htmlbornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
02:50 AM
2
02
50
AM
PST
Related note to "Conversations With God": So, Who Is This God? Walsch offers no evidence that the entity communicating with him is God. Are we to accept these doctrines simply because Walsch claims that it is God answering through his automatic writing? Before debating the ideas in this book with anyone who believes it, one should ask how can it be authenticated that this book is from God. Would God really write such florid drivel as, "My Truth is in the whisper of the wind, the babble of the brook, the crack of the thunder, the tap of the rain . . . My Truth . . . is as awesome as the night sky, and as simply, incontrovertibly, trustful as a baby's gurgle." [54] This sounds like a bad greeting card. Walsch's God says that his teachers have always come with the message that we are as holy as God. [55] Well, there have been teachers who have said this, notably the Eastern gurus and New Age teachers. One of the earliest foundational New Age bibles is Ram Dass' Be Here Now, first published in 1971. This book teaches many of the same views held by Walsch's God: man's innate divinity, reincarnation, serving the self, all is one, all is God, Bible misquotations and misapplications, no final judgment, and the illusion of material reality. Many of the book's messages do line up consistently and completely with the message of someone we know from Genesis chapter 3, someone who questioned God's word, called God a liar, told Adam and Eve that they could be like God, and that they would not die. This was the serpent, also known as Satan. In fact, the attacks on Christ; on salvation by grace; on marriage and the family; on God's word; on the body; on absolute truth; the denial of heaven, hell, and the devil; and the promotion of sorcery and Gnostic philosophies are a perfect picture of what Satan would say and want us to believe. If truly dictated by a spiritual being, this book is a thinly veiled attempt by Satan to sound like God, misquoting scripture and twisting everything around. Typical of Satan, the ideas are complicated, contradictory, and open-ended, and answers are often evasive. Preaching love and the "highest" choices and thoughts, it is the angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) sweet-talking us into believing we are God and can do anything we want. But Satan tips his hand too often. His hostility to Christ and his constant attacks on God's word give him away. Conversations with God? Actually, just the opposite. http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_BookreviewWalsch.html as well: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/370-conversations-with-god-neale-donald-walsch-2bornagain77
December 28, 2012
December
12
Dec
28
28
2012
02:46 AM
2
02
46
AM
PST
BA, I find the routine confirmation in so many descriptions of NDEs, of our oneness with God, while retaining our individual personalities, astonishing; A kind of spiritual cloning. I mean the vine and the branches is such an abstruse and, in worldly terms, improbable-seeming, teaching of Jesus, yet some speak of revisiting occasions in their life, simultaneously actually reliving it 'from the inside' and as a third-party observer; of being able to visit any location and any time in history past or future, on a wider scale, simultaneously, as well as knowing anything they wanted, also, I believe - although it would evidently not include the depth of God. I find it remarkable that no connection seems to have been made between cloning and the Virgin Birth. Who would have imagined or believed that we are all wee mystical bodies of ourselves, 'vines'. I'm sure I can't be the only one who finds St Augustine's words, 'Lord, you have made us for yourself and our hearts find no rest until they rest in you,' resonates extraordinarily with me, and this is precisely the experience of NDers, that they are actually 'home'; in a way they could evidently never have truly felt before in its fulness, although everyone understands the word's meaning - possibly more profoundly than just about any other word. Even the shadow of the word we experience here is special to us all. Seemingly, there is a strong correlation between NDE's, some religious, mystical experiences, and apparently similar experiences obtained via certain hallucinogenic drugs, such as lysergic acid: getting heaven into your head, on the cheap, instead of your head into heaven - to adapt one of Chesterton's saws.Axel
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:09 PM
10
10
09
PM
PST
BD: Perhaps you are looking for something a little like this Verse?? Psalm 82:6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ Although I'm sure you will not like the verse following it: Psalm 82:7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.”bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PST
BD: Oh I get it BD, logical contradictions are no trouble at all for you if you can simply "grock' it into plausibility in your mind with enough imagination and word play.. i.e. depends on what your definition of is is?bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
04:42 PM
4
04
42
PM
PST
BA re 431: The contradiction you see is based on your misunderstanding of what I mean by the phrase "One with God", nothing else. I have explained this carefully. You either cannot or will not get it. So feel free to continue to believe that I have contradicted myself. However, I have not.Bruce David
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PST
"yet you continue to ignore my clear and convincing rebuttals." REALLY???
BD you stated: “Adam is still the created and God the creator, so Adam’s—and our—existence is dependent on God. Thus Adam and we are not God’s equal even though He made us in His image and likeness. I believe that each of us is a part of Him, created with God-like powers, wisdom, knowledge, and love, but I am also fully aware that I owe these and indeed my very existence to Him. I know that I am utterly dependent upon Him. I would never claim to be His equal, even to myself.” OK, yet earlier you stated: “Your outrage is based on the notion of separation—that there is God, and there are humans, separate beings from Him. However, it is a central tenet of CWG that we are One.” To which I asked: So which is it? To which you replied: Both. “One with God” does not mean “equal to God”. It is a way of saying that our consciousness is an individuation of His consciousness, that we participate in His essence, that each of us is a part of Him, that the One looking through our eyes is Him. There is no way to get this with your left brain. You have to “grock” it. So basically, you are saying that when you are caught in a direct contradiction of statements you just have imagine your way out of it because logic will not help??? Thanks for clearing that up!
Imagining that a foundational logical contradiction is not devastating to your worldview IS NOT a clear and convincing rebuttal on your part. Quite the contrary, it confirms your irrationality in the face of reason!bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
02:05 PM
2
02
05
PM
PST
BA: Re 426: Well, it's true that if one rejects the idea of morality then theodicy as a justification of how God could allow evil in the world becomes unnecessary. However, if one accepts God as a loving being, then one must still somehow reconcile His love with the existence of suffering endured by innocent people. I believe that the effort to make such a reconciliation still qualifies as theodicy, but after all, it's only a label. What's important are the ideas, not what you call them. and 428:
Moreover, you come on this site over and over pushing your garbage religion as if you had any real evidence yourself even though the inherent logical contradictions have been shown over and over to you by people well qualified to show you them. The hypocrisy is literally oozing out of your fingertips every time you write in criticism of ANY other worldview, even Darwinism!
And I have demonstrated over and over why those arguments claiming to show logical contradictions in my views fail, yet you continue to ignore my clear and convincing rebuttals. Who is there to adjudicate our differences? Each of us must decide for ourselves what constitutes truth as best we can. And by the way, this site is ostensibly about Darwinism and Intelligent Design. Why is it any worse for me to present my spiritual philosophy than for you or any of the other Christians who post here to present your own? I was not the first to do so.Bruce David
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PST
correction: Moreover the prophecies that were shown to you to have been recently fulfilled (!948 and 1967 prophecy) play right into the exact prophecy that you claim was not fulfilled (the second coming).bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:44 AM
11
11
44
AM
PST
BD you claim,,, 'in particular every one of Jesus’ prophesies would need to be fulfilled, and clearly, that is not the case.' And once again, you are being completely unfair to the evidence. You were shown that your interpretation is wrong and you still 'imagine' that you are correct. Moreover the prophecies that were shown to to have been recently fulfilled play right into the prophecy you claim was not fulfilled (the second coming). The math is laid out in detail by Chuck Missler, as I referenced earlier, we have archeological confirmation for the start date to count the years to 1948 and 1967,,, it simply does not get any better than that as far as prophecy is concerned! Yet you act as if you got a leg to stand on in your criticism. ,,, Moreover, you come on this site over and over pushing your garbage religion as if you had any real evidence yourself even though the inherent logical contradictions have been shown over and over to you by people well qualified to show you them. The hypocrisy is literally oozing out of your fingertips every time you write in criticism of ANY other worldview, even Darwinism!bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:41 AM
11
11
41
AM
PST
makes sense,bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:31 AM
11
11
31
AM
PST
BD, what makes your reincarnation position unworkable, as far as Theodicy is concerned, is that you deny the objective reality of evil. God need not be reconciled with evil since evil does not objectively exist! It is a non-starter! Everything is good in your worldview,,, justice has no real purchase,,, there are no real consequences! Thus you have no inherent moral right within your worldview to condemn whatever Hitler, Moa, Stalin, or anybody else did as evil. You can simply 'prefer' (the weasel word that you use since you can't escape the 'ought') that they do otherwise, but you cannot realistically ground your preference for what you feel people 'ought' to do since you cut your feet out from under yourself by denying the reality of evil to begin with! Sure you can 'imagine' that your worldview makes since, but logically it is unworkable.bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PST
Mung, I find his criticism of the fig tree parable to be weak whereas I find his criticism of your 'gangrene' preterist position devastating. I found that, even though he was somewhat sympathetic to your position and tried to make it work, he still found it unworkable to be particularly devastating. Especially given his meticulous attention to detail.bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PST
Mung:
Sure they did. Every single thing came to pass.
When exactly did the events I listed in 417 occur? Furthermore, Jesus stated that when they did occur, the establishment of the Kingdom of God would be "near, even at the doors." That hasn't happened either.
How do you explain that any of the prophecy came to pass? How could Jesus have known that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed within 40 years? Just a lucky guess?
Many people have correctly predicted the future. Mark Twain did it, for example. (See #345, above) I have never denied that Jesus correctly predicted the destruction of the temple. Recall, however, that this conversation got started because BA wanted to use fulfilled prophesy as a warrant for the truth of everything in the Bible. For that to be an effective argument, at a minimum all the prophesies, in particular every one of Jesus' prophesies would need to be fulfilled, and clearly, that is not the case.Bruce David
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PST
I'm taking pre-orders for my forthcoming book, Conversations with Myself (starring myself as God).Mung
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PST
BA77, They guy disagrees with your interpretation of the parable of the fig tree and all the trees. Why are you quoting him? The guy is inclined to the view that the passage has as it's primary reference the events of AD70. That contradicts your view. Why are you quoting him? Someone could just as easily say that you're wrong and paste a link to this guy's web pages as proof. lol. Let me ask you a question. Do you think the temple is going to be rebuilt and then destroyed a third time?Mung
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:12 AM
10
10
12
AM
PST
BA:
BD, the biggest problem I find with mung’s preterism, besides what you have listed, is much like one of the main problems I find with your worldview, that of evil. To be precise I find that the Theodicy simply does not work for your worldview nor for mung’s preterism. (Nor for Darwinism for that matter)
That's interesting. One of the strongest arguments for reincarnation to me is that it makes theodicy possible. There are many people born into misery in this world and who die young, often times very young. It is untenable that a loving God would have created a world in which this is the only life such people live, the only chance they get to enjoy what life on earth has to offer or to fulfill the purpose of life on earth. On the other hand, if that life is only one of hundreds of incarnations, and if we all basically choose to experience everything it is possible to experience here at one time or another, and if such experiences are necessary for our overall spiritual development, then it makes sense that a loving God would set it up that way.Bruce David
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PST
Bruce David:
In that case the prophesy failed, since the events predicted in this passage did not take place in the time prophesied (or at all, for that matter)
Sure they did. Every single thing came to pass. Make a list of the things that you think came to pass, and then explain why they were not fulfilled prophecy. How do you explain that any of the prophecy came to pass? How could Jesus have known that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed within 40 years? Just a lucky guess? You ignore the clearly fulfilled aspects of the prophecy, and that's why you're cherry picking.Mung
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PST
Semi related: Astronomical Eclipse Data and Israel’s Feasts By Barry Setterfield (posted 23rd December 2012) http://www.ldolphin.org/Setterfield_study.htmlbornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
03:37 AM
3
03
37
AM
PST
BD, the biggest problem I find with mung's preterism, besides what you have listed, is much like one of the main problems I find with your worldview, that of evil. To be precise I find that the Theodicy simply does not work for your worldview nor for mung's preterism. (Nor for Darwinism for that matter)bornagain77
December 27, 2012
December
12
Dec
27
27
2012
01:47 AM
1
01
47
AM
PST
Mung:
So no, I am not cherry-piking. I support the unity of the entire passage.
In that case the prophesy failed, since the events predicted in this passage did not take place in the time prophesied (or at all, for that matter): "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.”Bruce David
December 26, 2012
December
12
Dec
26
26
2012
08:48 PM
8
08
48
PM
PST
1 2 3 4 16

Leave a Reply