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Why do evolutionary psychologists exist?

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A reader wrote to me to say,

I greatly enjoy your writing and I would like to ask your opinion about something I really find puzzling.

Well, once someone has decided to praise my writing, how can I resist responding? Anyway, this person goes on to say,

My question concerns the so-called agent detection device” and the affirmation that it disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt.

Sounds like a scam to me, but then I have shut the door on the feet of so many people selling winter home heating plans that I may have an innate door-shutting mechanism that “evolutionary psychology” can explain … (Like, it would never have anything at all to do with suspicion that the new plan would end up sticking me with more expenses than the present one – or anything else that suggests that the human mind is real, right?)

According to many experimental studies, human beings seem to have an innate mechanism enabling them to identify the presence of an agent under some circumstances. ( if one is in a deep wood, the shuffling of trees and bushes and a sudden silence would lead one to believe some creature is present).

Well, all I can say is, when that happens to me in the deep woods, I institute my wilderness survival plan immediately.

Admittedly, the last time that happened to me, wandering down a trail in Muskoka, the creature I nearly collided with was a fox that had apparently missed his rabbit. So the fox ran off. But what if it had been a bear who had missed his deer? …

Anyway, my correspondent went on to explain,

However, this mechanism can easily fool us. What if we are, for instance, alone in an old house and hear some noise. We may be inclined to assume, too easily, that someone or something must be there, even if other explanations (like wind) would be much more likely.

Okay, not me. I’ve never had any trouble detecting the difference between, say, a fox and a ghost.

Not that I believe in ghosts. I figure, either a spirit is a holy soul or it is not. If it is a holy soul, I need not worry. And if it is not a holy soul, it would never approach a baptized and confirmed Christian like me.

True, during high summer, the floorboards of old houses can start to creak. It can sound like someone is walking there, due to the wood’s adjustment to the temperature difference between day and night. I learned that as a small child.

(This was especially useful information for us girls because we were often yakking far into the night when we should have been asleep. … So it was important for us to know whether an adult was sneaking in to check on us, as opposed to natural night noise that we could ignore.)

My correspondent advises me that evolutionary psychologists think that this “agent detection” mechanism is hyperactive and therefore completely unreliable.

That doesn’t sound right to me. (Admittedly, not much about “evolutionary psychology” – a discipline without a subject – sounds right to me. But this “agent detection” stuff sounds especially unright.)

I wrote back and said, essentially,

I am nearly 60 years old, and have often faced real danger – and have never found the mechanism unreliable at all.

In every situation in which I suspected real danger, I was right to be concerned.

Yes, false alarms are common, but people learn to ignore them after a while.

If the mechanism is so unreliable, why am I still here? Why are you? Why is anyone?

Re God: I never thought God existed on those terms! I assumed it was because of the majesty and fine tuning of the universe and the moral law, and reason and revelation.

However, I have never uncovered a really good reason for why evolutionary psychologists exist, apart from taxpayer-funded universities. But if someone comes up with one, please let me know.

Comments
Allen has been here going on 3 years and in that time he has provided a lot of good information on evolution and for the most part I have found it more than reasonable and I have learned a lot. Allen seems committed to a naturalistic view of evolution but on several occasions has questioned a lot of the gospel that is preached. For that, I thank Allen. When debates get into what I believe are more squishy areas, Allen has had very vocal opinions here and has openly criticized many of the posts here some very severely. We are talking about the nature of God, religion, social policies etc. And obviously Chesterton and Lewis are in this area. On evolution the debates have been more friendly and open as to what is held by the evolutionary biology community. He has rightly criticized some of our parochial beliefs. When you can pin him down, I have found him always honest on questions in this area. But Allen has never presented anything that he claims is overwhelming evidence for macro evolution or is absolutely contradictory to ID and has sort of admitted that we are not driven by religious blinders. He is on record that there is a big difference between Id and creationism which is unique for those backing a naturalistic explanation. So what I am saying is that there are two Allens in terms of the debates here, the one who comments on hard science, namely biology and evolution in particular and the one who comments on social/relgious/political issues.jerry
May 7, 2009
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Allen, ----"I have read Chesterton (and Lewis), and been almost completely unmoved, and equally unconvinced. Indeed, in my experience and as illustrated in the long selections you have posted above, Chesterton and Lewis are both very long on argument and very short on evidence." We need more argument, like the sort of Lewis and Chesterton, to make proper sense of the evidence, and I just don't see the same level of insight of argument from the evolutionists pertaining to the same evidence. ----"As a scientist, when talking and writing about scientific subjects (such as the antiquity of our species and our planet and what we can reasonably infer about then, based on the available evidence), I prefer to stick to empirical evidence and what can be reasonably inferred from it." They're not strictly scientific questions, anything about nature and history is accessible as a general question, and no one should be ruled out by your category mistake, because the interpretation of the evidence, using better insight and argument and removing the inherent assumptions, indeed, the very crux of the matter, a man with a scientific training's interpretation has no added value. And this is true for even evolution and the antiquity of our race. Science, you understand, is not a category in which only scientists can interpret data and have some magical additional ability with the inference and meaning of the data. I'm sorry Allen, I know you're steeped in scientism, but that is a philosophy, and surely a philosophy which regards philosophy in general, of which you don't have to be a scientist, as inferior to science is absurd and contradictory. On the question of antiquity, of which Chesterton was an expert, his opinion has just as much validity as an archeologist's or anthropologist's opinion on the interpretation of the matter. And to be honest, I find it surprising that this has to be pointed out. Nature, in general, cannot be hijacked by a methodology, and rule out all other advice and correction from the rest of humanity. On matters of inference and interpretation, a scientist's interpretation has no added value. ----"From the way you frame your arguments, it seems clear to me that empirical evidence is entirely beside the point and without merit, except where it can be mobilized (often by misrepresenting both its content and the spirit in which it was obtained) to further your objective, which is not to “hold, as ’twere, a mirror up to nature”, but rather to force my conception of “nature” to conform wholly to your definition of it." That's the very definition of evolutionary psychology if I've ever seen it. And no, Allen, I've not mentioned anything about you being immoral or not having consistent moral values, I have not the faintest idea where you got that idea. And if you don't want to discuss the merits of things with me, so be it. But I will still make my own arguments directed to you and about your posts. If you want them to go unanswered, that's your business.Clive Hayden
May 7, 2009
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StephenB, I doubt anything will sway our friend Allen, he's literally, as John Davison warned, entrenched in the muck and mire of evolution. That's a dark hole. I try to offer some light StephenB, but some folks just don't want to see it. Everything from Allen, in the way of argument, is either a mischaracterization, which shows me that he's not interested in true characterizations and honest dialogue, or it is an emotional appeal. He emphasizes emotional appeals like "but also very characteristic of that small but influential group of people whose insistence on the absolute truth of their positions has led to the most horrifying episodes in the long, sad history of human intolerance." Not seeing, of course, that this is an emotional appeal that is also a mischaracterization. Real and productive dialogue can't continue with these tactics, we'll be chasing rabbits down rabbit holes, and picking up the pieces that Allen has intentionally scattered, all to avoid the real issues.Clive Hayden
May 7, 2009
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Hazel-- But you are assuming that the truth is that there is God No, I'm saying that the truth is findable. What’s complicated here is what does “I don’t know” mean - what is an agnostic. There is the common definition: one who doubts God's existence but won't claim to be an atheist, and there is the classic definition: one who believes that it is impossible to know God. I guess you would fall in the classic category. My position is that we - every single one of us - can not really know what the metaphysical truth is. However that doesn’t stop us from trying As Mr. Spock would say, "highly illogical". :-) So when I say I don’t believe in God, I don’t mean that I know that he doesn’t exist, because I don’t think such knowledge is possible . . . I think a lot of what you object to with regard to comments about atheists since you seem rather tolerant and generally respectful of others beliefs. This is a belief system that I have considered and rejected, in part - maybe large part - because of the certainty with which Christianity has proclaimed itself the one True religion. Religion is a word that is loaded with connotations about compulsion to worship and follow dogmatic written codes. When I first read scripture, it seemed Jesus came to overthrow all that. Now Christian religion did develop for legitimate and necessary reasons: to provide comfort to the fearful, give structure to communities, to give moral guidance, to defend against injustice etc.; and I think Christian religion is generally a good thing. But Jesus is not about the religion.tribune7
May 7, 2009
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Under such circumstances, I have nothing more to say to you, and henceforth will not respond to your comments for any reason whatsoever.
Egad! Another shunning. When will the madness end?Charlie
May 7, 2009
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-----Allen MacNeill: "I have read Chesterton (and Lewis), and been almost completely unmoved, and equally unconvinced. Indeed, in my experience and as illustrated in the long selections you have posted above, Chesterton and Lewis are both very long on argument and very short on evidence. Their method (and apparently yours) is Socratic (or, more accurately, Platonic) and mine is Aristotelian and Baconian." I seriously doubt that you have spend much time with Chesterton or Lewis, or that you have read either of them with an open mind. Chesterton makes more arguments in one paragraph than most writers make in five pages. The method he (and Lewis) uses is called "reason," a commodity that is in short supply these days. ----"As a scientist, when talking and writing about scientific subjects (such as the antiquity of our species and our planet and what we can reasonably infer about then, based on the available evidence), I prefer to stick to empirical evidence and what can be reasonably inferred from it." We know what you prefer, and I, for one, am telling you that your methodology is incomplete. We gain knowledge both by the intellect and by sense experience. Your empiricism is one extreme; rationism is the other extreme. Reason=realism, which takes both intellect and empirical observation into account. ----"By contrast, you assert that the only path to Truth is via intuition and argument, using whatever rhetorical techniques you can to make your point. No one has ever said that or anything close to that. What I am saying, (I can't speak for Clive), is that empircal evidence is only half the story. That you would characterize that formulation as anti-empirical is one more bit of evidence that your approach is skewed. ----"From the way you frame your arguments, it seems clear to me that empirical evidence is entirely beside the point and without merit, except where it can be mobilized (often by misrepresenting both its content and the spirit in which it was obtained) to further your objective, which is not to “hold, as ’twere, a mirror up to nature”, but rather to force my conception of “nature” to conform wholly to your definition of it." Everyone believes in evidence. The issue is, what one does with it. What, for example, do you do with the evidence the a DNA molecule functions much like a small factory. Answer: You ignore it because it doesn fit into your world view. World view often trumps evidence, a point that you continue to miss. ----"As for stephenB’s very telling suggestion that I burn all my books and rely on Chesterton alone for my definitions of reality (with, perhaps, a little C. S. Lewis thrown in), I have always regarded anyone who suggests burning any books for any reason (except, perhaps, for keeping one’s family alive in a blizzard) to be advocating perhaps the greatest sin a person can commit against the life of the mind. I cannot forget those who, still in living memory, not only advocated the burning of books but also gleefully participated in their destruction, and cannot help but recall to what other things (and to whom) those cheerful bookburners then shifted their murderous attention." I think you are getting a little carried away with a metaphor, don't you. I don't really think you should start a bonfire, nor do I really want you to "lock yourself in a room." (That too was a play on words [I had better make the announcement from now on, if I don't mean something literally]) That, by the way, is more evidence that those who limit themselves to the empirical method are missing something important when they evaluate what is going on in the real world. ----"I also regard anyone who insists that there is one and only one answer to every question, and that this answer may only be found in the writings (or recorded utterances) of any historical figure to be not only anti-intellectual, but also very characteristic of that small but influential group of people whose insistence on the absolute truth of their positions has led to the most horrifying episodes in the long, sad history of human intolerance." I, (nor Clive for that matter) am not saying that there is only "one way." It is the one-way approach that I am criticizing. Which community is it that insists that Darwinism must be true no matter what? Which community insist that only modern thinkers have any wisdom? Which community is it that concocted "methodological naturalism" so that the one-way approach may be institutionalized? Which community pretends not to know that this initiate was taken when such disclaimers serve a strategic purpose? ----"And so, here at the conclusion of my participation in this thread, I will state once again (so that there can be no mistake): We do not agree on even the most basic assumptions about the nature of reality or the mind. Furthermore, you insist that in this disagreement you are absolutely correct and that I am steeped in absolute error. Furthermore, you consistently imply (and sometimes flatly state) that this failure of mine to agree with your position constitutes a telling commentary on my lack of intelligence, lack of learning, and (implicitly, but very clearly) my lack of (or, at least, disregard for) consistent moral values (and, by extension, a similar lack in anyone who entertains the possibility that my position might have merit). Under such circumstances, I have nothing more to say to you, and henceforth will not respond to your comments for any reason whatsoever." Is this the same blogger who recently characterized Clive as "a slow learner" for expressing doubts about your defense of evolutionary biology.StephenB
May 7, 2009
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re Tribune at 127: But you are assuming that the truth is that there is God, so that one is not searching for truth if one is not searching for God. Since I don't believe in God I don't accept this argument. What's complicated here is what does "I don't know" mean - what is an agnostic. My position is that we - every single one of us - can not really know what the metaphysical truth is. However that doesn't stop us from trying - people have invented numerous metaphysical belief systems and, more importantly, integrated them into their overall perspective on life. The dilemma we are all in, as a major feature of the human condition, is that we all need a metaphysical background for our beliefs even though we can't actually know what that metaphysical background can't be. Therefore when we invent (create, make up) such systems, we have to judge them not on their "Truth", but rather on their success, as best we can judge, in helping us structure our lives and guide our actions. And, foreseeing the standard rejoinder here, there is no absolute criteria by which to judge what "success" means: another part of the human condition is that we have to make choices based on incomplete and somewhat circular knowledge, but since not choosing is not possible, we have to proceed in life despite this limitation. The good news is that feedback works: we constantly test our knowledge against further experience, and this is as true of our created metaphysical beliefs, although in a different way, as it is of our scientific beliefs. So when I say I don't believe in God, I don't mean that I know that he doesn't exist, because I don't think such knowledge is possible, but I also don't think that the people who think he does exist truly have such knowledge either. However I do mean, when I say I don't believe in God, that my belief system - the one I have thoughtfully developed over the course of my life - does not include God. This is a belief system that I have considered and rejected, in part - maybe large part - because of the certainty with which Christianity has proclaimed itself the one True religion.hazel
May 7, 2009
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Hazel --This is my main position - that we can’t know the nature of the metaphysical ground of the universe. That is the classic definition of the agnostic but that is not my position. One can know the metaphysical ground of the universe (i.e. God). One, however, may not know this. And if one doesn't it is proper to admit it. Also, Tribune writes, “A hard and fast atheist or agnostic is someone who has pretty much given up on pursuing truth and has stopped thinking.” That’s not only wrong, it contradicts what you said in the first quote . . . It's not and it doesn't. When one says there is no God or one can't know truth, then one closes one mind. That's different than saying 'I don't know'.tribune7
May 7, 2009
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tribune writes, "It’s better to admit you don’t know that to pretend to believe." This is my main position - that we can't know the nature of the metaphysical ground of the universe. Try telling that to all the people here who consider one irrational if they don't see that the universe "screams God." Also, Tribune writes, "A hard and fast atheist or agnostic is someone who has pretty much given up on pursuing truth and has stopped thinking." That's not only wrong, it contradicts what you said in the first quote, because an agnostic is one who would rather live with uncertainty than believe things that are not true. Also, atheists and agnostics have not given up searching for truth - they are just searching for it in different places. Rather than thinking that truth can be found in theistic belief they, and I include myself here, search for truths by examining the world around us. Accusing me, which you are implicitly doing, of having "given up on pursuing truth and has stopped thinking" is just another example of the arrogance and contempt that I am pointing out.hazel
May 7, 2009
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Atheism is not really an intellectual position at all. It is a cry of wrath from those who resent a purposeful creator that would presume to place moral demands on his creatures, Hazel, suppose someone said Christianity was a warm and fuzzy superstition created to insulate weak people from the cold, harsh reality of nothingness? Would that be mean? Not necessarily, not if he actually believed it. Of course, when that fallacy was pointed out to him and he continued to hold it, he'd reveal himself not to be that interested in reality, harsh or otherwise. A hard and fast atheist or agnostic is someone who has pretty much given up on pursuing truth and has stopped thinking. OTOH, a skeptic -- and this can be an atheist or agnostic or one who can't immediately accept certain miracles a la St. Thomas -- is one who takes a rather honorable position. It's better to admit you don't know that to pretend to believe.tribune7
May 7, 2009
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Two points: - C.S. Lewis obviously didn't know anything about dogs. - Chesterton may in 1925 have been able to cling to the notion that there was no human prehistory and no reliable methods of investigating that prehistory, but to advocate his position in 2009, in the face of hominid finds and advances in paleoanthropology in 80+ years since, is to engage in a flat denial of reality.Diffaxial
May 7, 2009
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I tend to agree with Allen here. It's one thing to disagree with someone, but it's another to treat someone you disagree with with arrogant contempt. For people who profess to supposedly believe in absolute moral truths, I find this lack of humility and civility to be, frankly, hypocritical. One of the fundamental ways in which I disagree with many here is that I believe that truth must be searched for in many places and in many ways, and that whatever truth I find will need to balance a number of different perspectives. This is obviously in contrast to those that feel that absolute truth exists, that there is only one path to it, and that anyone who doesn't agree with this is irrational. Case in point:
Atheism is not really an intellectual position at all. It is a cry of wrath from those who resent a purposeful creator that would presume to place moral demands on his creatures, a firm resolution to reject objective morality in all its manifestations, and an intractable conviction that they should be permitted to become a law unto themselves.
I would never have these kinds of feelings towards someone who disagreed with me about philosophy and religion. I will of course argue against certain positions, but I believe that people with different positions that I have are making just as genuine efforts to explore the big questions of life as I am.hazel
May 6, 2009
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I have read Chesterton (and Lewis), and been almost completely unmoved, and equally unconvinced. Indeed, in my experience and as illustrated in the long selections you have posted above, Chesterton and Lewis are both very long on argument and very short on evidence. Their method (and apparently yours) is Socratic (or, more accurately, Platonic) and mine is Aristotelian and Baconian. As a scientist, when talking and writing about scientific subjects (such as the antiquity of our species and our planet and what we can reasonably infer about then, based on the available evidence), I prefer to stick to empirical evidence and what can be reasonably inferred from it. By contrast, you assert that the only path to Truth is via intuition and argument, using whatever rhetorical techniques you can to make your point. From the way you frame your arguments, it seems clear to me that empirical evidence is entirely beside the point and without merit, except where it can be mobilized (often by misrepresenting both its content and the spirit in which it was obtained) to further your objective, which is not to "hold, as 'twere, a mirror up to nature", but rather to force my conception of "nature" to conform wholly to your definition of it. As for stephenB's very telling suggestion that I burn all my books and rely on Chesterton alone for my definitions of reality (with, perhaps, a little C. S. Lewis thrown in), I have always regarded anyone who suggests burning any books for any reason (except, perhaps, for keeping one's family alive in a blizzard) to be advocating perhaps the greatest sin a person can commit against the life of the mind. I cannot forget those who, still in living memory, not only advocated the burning of books but also gleefully participated in their destruction, and cannot help but recall to what other things (and to whom) those cheerful bookburners then shifted their murderous attention. I also regard anyone who insists that there is one and only one answer to every question, and that this answer may only be found in the writings (or recorded utterances) of any historical figure to be not only anti-intellectual, but also very characteristic of that small but influential group of people whose insistence on the absolute truth of their positions has led to the most horrifying episodes in the long, sad history of human intolerance. And so, here at the conclusion of my participation in this thread, I will state once again (so that there can be no mistake): We do not agree on even the most basic assumptions about the nature of reality or the mind. Furthermore, you insist that in this disagreement you are absolutely correct and that I am steeped in absolute error. Furthermore, you consistently imply (and sometimes flatly state) that this failure of mine to agree with your position constitutes a telling commentary on my lack of intelligence, lack of learning, and (implicitly, but very clearly) my lack of (or, at least, disregard for) consistent moral values (and, by extension, a similar lack in anyone who entertains the possibility that my position might have merit). Under such circumstances, I have nothing more to say to you, and henceforth will not respond to your comments for any reason whatsoever.Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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Allen, I never said that the mind only adheres to principles of logic and reason, I included sentiment and art and aesthetics and morality. A great bit of what you said about me is a mischaracterization. But notice, all of these things are immaterial. Here is my version of the philosophy of mind: "I am not going to maintain that what I call Transposition is the only possible mode whereby a poorer medium can respond to a richer, but I claim that it is very hard to imagine any other. It is therefore, at the very least, not improbable that Transposition occurs whenever the higher reproduces itself in the lower. Thus, to digress for a moment, it seems to me very likely that the real relation between the mind and body is one of Transposition. We are certain that, in this like at any rate, thought is intimately connected with the brain. The theory that thought therefore is merely a movement in the brain is, in my opinion, nonsense, for if so, that theory itself would be merely a movement, an event among atoms, which may have speed and direction, but of which it would be meaningless to use the words “true” or “false.” We are driven then to some kind of correspondence. But if we assume a one-for-one correspondence, this means that we have to attribute an almost unbelievable complexity and variety to events in the brain. But I submit that a one-for-one relation is probably quite unnecessary. All our examples suggest that the brain can respond—in a sense, adequately and exquisitely respond—to the seemingly infinite variety of consciousness without providing one singly physical modification for each single modification of consciousness. I have tried to stress throughout the inevitableness of the error made about every transposition by one who approaches it from the lower medium only. The strength of the critic lies in the words "merely" or "nothing but. He sees all the facts but not the meaning. Quite truly, therefore, he claims to have seen all the facts. there is nothing else there, except the meaning. He is therefore, as regards the matter at hand, in the position of an animal. You will have noticed that most dogs cannot understand pointing. You point to a bit of food on the floor; the dog, instead of looking at the floor, sniffs at your finger. A finger is a finger to him, and that is all. His world is all fact and no meaning. And in a period in when factual realism is dominant we shall find people deliberately inducing upon themselves this doglike mind. A man who has experienced love from within will deliberately go about to inspect it analytically from outside and regard the results of this analysis as truer than his experience. The extreme limits of this self-binding is seen in those who, like the rest of us, have consciousness, yet go about the study of the human organism as if they did not know it was conscious. As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism. The critique of every experience from below, the voluntary ignoring of meaning and concentration on fact, will always have the same plausibility. There will always be evidence, and every month fresh evidence, to show that religion is only psychological, justice only self-protection, politics only economics, love only lust, and thought itself only cerebral bio-chemistry." ----Transpositions, C.S. Lewis And further, "The idea that the myth (so potent in all modern thought) is a result of Darwin’s biology would thus seem to be unhistorical. On the contrary, the attraction of Darwinism was that it gave to a pre-existing myth the scientific reassurances it required. If no evidence for evolution had been forthcoming, it would have been necessary to invent it. The real sources of the myth are partly political. It projects onto the cosmic screen feelings engendered by the Revolu­tionary period. In the second place, we must notice that Darwinism gives no support to the belief that natural selection, working upon chance variations, has a general tend­ency to produce improvement. The illusion that it has comes from confining our attention to a few species which have (by some possibly arbitrary standard of our own) changed for the better. Thus the horse has improved in the sense that protohippos would be less useful to us than his modern descendant. The anthro­poid has improved in the sense that he now is Ourselves. But a great many of the changes produced by evolution are not improvements by any conceivable standard. In battle men save their lives sometimes by advancing and sometimes by retreating. So, in the battle for survival, species save themselves sometimes by increasing, sometimes by jettisoning, their powers. There is no general law of progress in biological history. And, thirdly, even if there were, it would not follow—it is, indeed, manifestly not the case—that there is any law of progress in ethical, cultural, and social history. No one looking at world history without some preconception in favor of progress could find in it a steady up gradient." ----The World's Last Night, C.S. Lewis "Dr. Joad's article on 'God and Evil' last week suggests the interesting conclusion that since neither 'mechanism' nor 'emergent evolution' will hold water, we must chose in the long run between some monotheistic philosophy, like the Christian, and some such dualism as that of the Zoroastrians. I agree with Dr. Joad in rejecting mechanism and emergent evolution. Mechanism, like all materialist systems, breaks down at the problem of knowledge. If thought is the undesigned and irrelevant product of cerebral motions, what reason have we to trust it? As for emergent evolution, if anyone insists on using the word God to mean whatever the world happens to be going to do next, of course we cannot prevent him. But nobody would, in fact, so use it unless he has a secret belief that what was coming next will be an improvement. Such a belief, besides being unwarranted, presents peculiar difficulties to an emergent evolutionist. If things can improve, that must mean that there is some absolute standard of good above and outside the cosmic process to which that process can approximate. There is no sense in talking of 'becoming better' if better means simply 'what we are becoming'----it is like congratulating yourself on reaching your destination and defining your destination as the place you've reached. Mellontolatry, or the worship of the future, is a fuddled religion." ----Evil and God, C.S. Lewis And as far as the "historical" argument of the evolution of mind: "Science is weak about these prehistoric things in a way that has hardly been noticed. The science whose modern marvels we all admire succeeds by incessantly adding to its data. In all practical inventions, in most natural discoveries, it can always increase evidence by experiment. But it cannot experiment in making men; or even in watching to see what the first men make. An inventor can advance step by step in the construction of an aeroplane, even if he is only experimenting with sticks and scraps of metal in his own back-yard. But he cannot watch the Missing Link evolving in his own back-yard. If he has made a mistake in his calculations, the aeroplane will correct it by crashing to the ground. But if he has made a mistake about the arboreal habitat of his ancestor, he cannot see his arboreal ancestor falling off the tree. He cannot keep a cave-man like a cat in the back-yard and watch him to see whether he does really practice cannibalism or carry off his mate on the principles of marriage by capture. He cannot keep a tribe of primitive men like a pack of hounds and notice how far they are influenced by the herd instinct. If he sees a particular bird behave in a particular way, he can get other birds and see if they behave in that way; but if he finds a skull, or the scrap of a skull, in the hollow of a hill, he cannot multiply it into a vision of the valley of dry bones. In dealing with a past that has almost entirely perished, he can only go by evidence and not by experiment. And there is hardly enough evidence to be even evidential. Thus while most science moves in a sort of curve, being constantly corrected by new evidence, this science flies off into space in a straight line uncorrected by anything. But the habit of forming conclusions, as they can really be formed in more fruitful fields, is so fixed in the scientific mind that it cannot resist talking like this. It talks about the idea suggested by one scrap of bone as if it were something like the aeroplane which is constructed at last out of whole scrapheaps of scraps of metal. The trouble with the professor of the prehistoric is that he cannot scrap his scrap. The marvellous and triumphant aeroplane is made out of a hundred mistakes. The student of origins can only make one mistake and stick to it. We talk very truly of the patience of science; but in this department it would be truer to talk of the impatience of science. Owing to the difficulty above described, the theorist is in far too much of a hurry. We have a series of hypotheses so hasty that they may well be called fancies, and cannot in any case be further corrected by facts. The most empirical anthropologist is here as limited as an antiquary. He can only cling to a fragment of the past and has no way of increasing it for the future. He can only clutch his fragment of fact, almost as the primitive man clutched his fragment of flint. And indeed he does deal with it in much the same way and for much the same reason. It is his tool and his only tool. It is his weapon and his only weapon. He often wields it with a fanaticism far in excess of anything shown by men of science when they can collect more facts from experience and even add new facts by experiment. Sometimes the professor with his bone becomes almost as dangerous as a dog with his bone. And the dog at least does not deduce a theory from it, proving that mankind is going to the dogs--or that it came from them. In this sketch, therefore, of man in his relation to certain religious and historical problems, I shall waste no further space on these speculations on the nature of man before he became man. His body may have been evolved from the brutes; but we know nothing of any such transition that throws the smallest light upon his soul as it has shown itself in history. Unfortunately the same school of writers pursue the same style of reasoning when they come to the first real evidence about the first real men. Strictly speaking of course we know nothing about prehistoric man, for the simple reason that he was prehistoric. The history of prehistoric man is a very obvious contradiction in terms. It is the sort of unreason in which only rationalists are allowed to indulge. If a parson had casually observed that the Flood was ante-diluvian, it is possible that he might be a little chaffed about his logic. If a bishop were to say that Adam was Preadamite, we might think it a little odd. But we are not supposed to notice such verbal trifles when sceptical historians talk of the part of history that is prehistoric. The truth is that they are using the terms historic and prehistoric without any clear test or definition in their minds. What they mean is that there are traces of human lives before the beginning of human stories; and in that sense we do at least know that humanity was before history. Human civilisation is older than human records. That is the sane way of stating our relations to these remote things. Humanity has left examples of its other arts earlier than the art of writing; or at least of any writing that we can read. But it is certain that the primitive arts were arts; and it is in every way probable that the primitive civilisations were civilisations. The man left a picture of the reindeer, but he did not leave a narrative of how he hunted the reindeer; and therefore what we say of him is hypothesis and not history. But the art he did practice was quite artistic; his drawing was quite intelligent and there is no reason to doubt that his story of the hunt would be quite intelligent, only if it exists it is not intelligible. In short, the prehistoric period need not mean the primitive period, in the sense of the barbaric or bestial period. It does not mean the time before civilisation or the time before arts and crafts. It simply means the time before any connected narratives that we can read. This does indeed make all the practical difference between remembrance and forgetfulness; but it is perfectly possible that there were all sorts of forgotten forms of civilisation, as well as all sorts of forgotten forms of barbarism. And in any case everything indicated that many of these forgotten or half-forgotten social stages were much more civilised and much less barbaric than is vulgarly imagined today. But even about these unwritten histories of humanity, when humanity was quite certainly human, we can only conjecture with the greatest doubt and caution. And unfortunately doubt and caution are the last things commonly encouraged by the loose evolutionism of current culture. For that culture is full of curiosity; and the one thing that it cannot endure is the agony of agnosticism. It was in the Darwinian age that the word first became known and the thing first became impossible. It is necessary to say plainly that all this ignorance is simply covered by impudence. Statements are made so plainly and positively that men have hardly the moral courage to pause upon them and find that they are without support." The Everlasting Man, G.K. Chesterton Your supposedly true narrative accounts, which are really just-so stories, that are designed to convince me of the evolution of mind, betray themselves, for your story shouldn't have to rely on your imagination as a story teller in such an effort at seeming plausible. It's the fact that you have to rely on so much effort at all that is telling. The more ingenious your story, the more perverse, because real science shouldn't need to rely on high abstractions and plausible stories. StephenB is right, in my humble opinion, you would greatly benefit from reading Chesterton.Clive Hayden
May 6, 2009
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Allen, ----"P.S. I find it interesting that a person with Clive’s beliefs about reality would find himself comfortable moderating a website in which the explicitly stated viewpoint of the founders and moderators is that evolution (including evolution by natural selection) has happened (including, presumably, evolution of the “mind”)" Your assumption goes awry with the very word "presumably". There is no presumption that the mind has evolved "by default." This is a red herring. And so are your other posts. You can't have an actual fruitful dialogue with me, so you try to paint me as being at odds with everything, science, philosophy, in an attempt to discredit me in general. But notice, the argument hasn't advanced because of this red herring. The argument is just where it was, no matter how you try to define me. This tactic is called "Bulverism" by C.S. Lewis, where you do not engage a man['s argument, you simply try to discredit him on other grounds and explain how he got to be so silly. But you cannot actually prove the silliness by the tenets of the actual argument. "The modern method [of argumentation] is to assume without discussion that [your opponent] is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly. In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it Bulverism. Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father — who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than the third — ‘Oh you say that because you are a man.’ ‘At that moment’, E. Bulver assures us, ‘there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and then explain his error, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall.’ That is how Bulver became one of the makers of the Twentieth [and Twenty-First] Century." –C. S. Lewis, “Bulverism,” in God in the Dock, p. 273Clive Hayden
May 6, 2009
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----Allen: “Conclusion 1: Clive’s philosophy of “mind” and philosophy of science are so at variance with the basic tenets of the philosophy of “mind” and philosophy of science since at least the time of Francis Bacon that any discussion of these topics (and, by extension, any aspect of the natural or social sciences) would quite literally consist of a clash of incommensurate worldviews, and would be a complete waste of his time and ours.” Do you labor under the illusion that modern world views are always more revealing than previous formulations? If so, anything or anyone who could disabuse you of that fantasy would not be wasting time. ----“Conclusion 2: Since Clive’s worldview is almost completely at variance with the consensus worldview that underlies virtually all of modern science and much of modern philosophy, to continue to discuss any of these subjects (except, possibly, his conception of what constitutes “logic” and “reason”), further discussion or attempts to present countervailing evidence would be entirely futile. Indeed, what would even constitute “evidence” when one adopts the definition of “mind” to which Clive apparently “adheres”? I can’t wait to hear about your consensus world view “that underlies virtually all of modern science, and much of modern philosophy.” Is it perhaps the Kantian skepticism, refuted by Reid in his own era and by Adler in the 20th century, or is it the Darwinian anti-teleological model that is crumbling before your very eyes, or is it perhaps the modernist tendency to ignore evidence for a finely tuned universe in favor of “infinite multiple universes.” Is that the consensus world view that you are touting. ----“In brief, I’ve got better and more interesting things to do with my time than argue with a throwback to the Scholastics…” You would be far better off to burn the books you are reading, lock yourself in a room for about five years, and read everything that Chesterton ever wrote. Remember, you are the same person who asserted, as absolute truth, that there are no absolute truths. Anyone who is grounded in such an irrational position as that cannot afford the luxury of sneering.StephenB
May 6, 2009
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Allen, it is my observation that evo-psych is used to excuse bad (self or socially destructive) behavior. You can argue my observations are not all-inclusive, which I won't dispute. And you can argue that evo-psych is being misused by those whom I observed, albeit you will then have to explain the qualifications you are attempting to place on it to keep it from being misused. In no way, however, do I claim to know the motivations of those studying evo-psych.tribune7
May 6, 2009
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For instance, when a biology professor such as yourself asserts emphatically and with authority that Darwin never wrote about purpose in nature, that you and your students have searched OOS for a decade without finding it, but then asserts that Darwin himself argued against teleology (purpose) in nature as evidence for evolution (non-teleological explanation) it makes sense to get a little clarity and find out exactly which is your authoritative position. When you make these kinds of statements with the abundantly clear implication that those who do not agree with you are ignorant of the primary literature it is nice to know which position actually demonstrates that ignorance.Charlie
May 6, 2009
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Allen --3) Evolutionary psychologists are primarily motivated to study evolutionary psychology as a means of excusing their own bad behavior. . . How is this comment not an ad hominem argument? Maybe that comment is, Allen, but it's not mine :-) You attempt to put words in my mouth that I never meant or intended.tribune7
May 6, 2009
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Last sentence correction: "It doesn’t bother me a bit if you leave a thread because it has hit the magical 100 comment mark and you don’t answer to your own contradictions." By the way, I've never missed the fact that when you do respond you prefer to make the grammatical error of typing my name lower-case. Interesting little tactic, that.Charlie
May 6, 2009
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Oh no, Allen, you misconstrue. Go right ahead and continue to ignore me, I prefer it that way. But your brand of sanctimonious preaching definitely warrants a side by side exposure as presented by the "gotcha" - which is the evidence and is the argument. It doesn't bother me a bit if you leave a thread because i has hit the magical 100 comment mark and don't back answer to your own contradictions.Charlie
May 6, 2009
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charlie in #111: I have grown very tired of making comments in response to assertions that lack supporting evidence and questions that include an implicit or explicit ad hominem argument. If you would like to ask a question out of genuine interest (rather than the desire to score "gotcha points") or would like to make an argument based on supporting evidence, please do so and I will do my best to address them. Otherwise, I will ignore both your comments and the "Me, too, what he said!" comments from other commentators that follow them.Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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tribune7: Here's what you wrote in comment #34:
"A lot of it seems to be simply research into excusing bad behavior."
Let me rephrase your assertion:
"Most of evolutionary psychology consists of research designed to excuse bad behavior."
I submit that anyone reading this would conclude two things: 1) Evolutionary psychology is generally useless for anything except excusing bad behavior. 2) Evolutionary psychologists are therefore primarily motivated to study evolutionary psychology as a means of excusing bad behavior. Who's "bad behavior"? This is left unstated, but I believe that the most implication that most people would draw would be:
3) Evolutionary psychologists are primarily motivated to study evolutionary psychology as a means of excusing their own bad behavior.
How is this comment not an ad hominem argument? There is no evidence presented to support the assertion made, and its implications are abundantly clear, as I have pointed out, above. Furthermore, based on similar unsupported assertions made by tribune7 in the past, I would conclude that, not only is the statement quoted above an ad hominem argument, but it was also completely intended as such, and directed against me (as I have on multiple occasions identified by own field of research as evolutionary psychology, broadly defined).Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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Hi Tribune, re:106 I would emphatically state that, based upon my reading of hundreds of his comments (even on threads with over 100 comments) Allen MacNeill's practice has never come near the standards of his preaching. Ergo, he is well familiar with ignoring my comments.Charlie
May 6, 2009
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tribune7:
With regard to Ludwig’s statement that Denyse said Pascal Boyer has asserted that humans have an agent detection device that “disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt” and is “completely unreliable.” I can’t find where she said that.
It's the first two posts on this thread. I asked:
Could you please point me to your source for the proposition that evolutionary psychologists make either of these claims?
Ms. O'Leary responded:
Start with Pascal Boyer and work your way out from there.
The implication, clearly, was that Boyer (like evolutionary psychologists in general in Ms. O'Leary's mind, apparently) claims that the agent detection device "disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt" and is "completely unreliable." As Allen MacNeill ably pointed out, that characterization is a demonstrably false caricature of evolutionary psychology. tribune7:
I don’t think it’s all that unfair to assert that Boyer subscribes to the view that “hyperactive agent dectection” leads to incorrectly attributing natural phenomena to supernatural forces.
Fine. That's not the same as claiming that it "disproves God's existence beyond any reasonable doubt" or that it is "completely unreliable." tribune7:
Further it is dishonest to insist that Boyer’s claim that evolution caused us to create God and religion is significantly different that saying that God who created us and revealed Himself to us doesn’t exist.
You must be using a meaning of "dishonest" that I am unfamiliar with.Ludwig
May 6, 2009
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P.S. I find it interesting that a person with Clive's beliefs about reality would find himself comfortable moderating a website in which the explicitly stated viewpoint of the founders and moderators is that evolution (including evolution by natural selection) has happened (including, presumably, evolution of the "mind"), and that it has been guided (i.e. "designed") by an Intelligent Designer (identity unspecified). Wouldn't a Scholastic find that idea just a little bit at variance with his underlying assumptions about reality?Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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In #103 Diffaxial wrote:
"Both the broad picture and many specific elements of hominid evolutionary history have a very secure empirical foundation (in paleontology and physical anthropology, genetics, etc.) that is vastly more detailed than the more indirect inferences of EP. If you find yourself able to reject that, then your rejection of EP follows as a matter of simple logic, not in response to problems with specific arguments or evidence vis EP specifically."
Based on Clive's statements in comment #90, this is precisely what Clive is asserting, and that is why I decided it was pointless and counterproductive to continue discussing any of this with him. Here is a summary of Clive's assertions in comment #90: 1) Logic and reason cannot be studied empirically. 2) Logic and reason form the basis for empirical analysis. 3)"Ought" statements cannot be derived from "is" statements. 4)"Ought" statements always precede "is" statements, and therefore define what "is" statements can consist of. 5) There is no "science of the mind", including psychology. 6) The "mind" does not change over time or from culture to culture. 7) "Changing one's mind" does not consist of changes in the mind. 8) Since "evolution" is defined as "change over time", the "mind" does not (indeed, cannot) evolve. 9) There is no natural selection and no random mutation in immaterial things (translation: immaterial things do not change over time, and all immaterial things persist in exactly equal frequency, regardless of the passage of time or changes in the "material" universe). 10) Inference: Based on the foregoing, the "mind" consists entirely of "immaterial things". 11) There is no "ecology" of the "mind" (translation: the content and structure of the "mind" and its constituents does not depend in any way on context or on the relationship between constituent parts). 12) Biological metaphors are totally meaningless when applied to immaterial and non-biological entities. 13) The physical world does not produce the "mind" (translation: the "mind" would have the qualities that it has, regardless of any of the qualities that exist in the physical world). 14) Nature has absolutely nothing in it that would correspond to, or have the defining characteristics of "mind" (whatever those might be). 15) "Mind" precedes and completely constructs the entire physical universe and every object and process within it. 16) All (and presumably any) actual events (i.e. events happening in the physical universe) that might have any bearing on our minds are not relevant when considering the "mind" itself. 17) The mind "adheres" immaterial realities (whatever that means). I am prepared to take Clive entirely on his word on all of this, and to then formulate what I believe are the implications of his views: Implication 1: As the only things Clive has associated with the word "mind" are logic and reason, it is clear that according to his definition, "mind" = logic and reason and nothing else. Implication 2: Logic and reason are the only entities, either inside or outside of the physical universe, that are "primary qualities". Everything else that exists, whether inside or outside of the physical universe, are derived from (and therefore entirely reducible to) logic and reason. Implication 3: Morality, sentiment, aesthetics, art, music, literature, etc. are all completely derived from "mind", which consists entirely of "logic and reason". Ergo, morality, sentiment, aesthetics, art, music, literature, etc. do not have any "reality" separate from that of logic and reason, and therefore it may be assumed that they do not exist as primarily entities or qualities. Implication 4: All empirical statements (i.e. "is" statements) are necessarily preceded and constrained by "ought" statements. Ergo, any observations of objects or processes in the observable universe are preceded (and grounded in) an absolute assertion that the way that such objects or processes are is the way they ought to be. Implication 5: Since all "is" statements are predicated on "ought" statements (i.e. have the form "this is the way things are, and therefore this is the way they ought to be), this assertion is directly extensible to such phenomena as child prostitution, slavery, torture, warfare, and all other empirically observable phenomena in human behavior. We observe that they "are", and must therefore conclude that this is the way they "ought" to be. Implication 6: The science of psychology in any and all of its forms is a complete and utter waste of time and should be abandoned. People and their behavior (which is presumably completely derived from the contents of their "minds") can be completely reduced to logic and reason (i.e. the totality of the qualities of "mind"), and any attempt to understand or explain human behavior or cognition using anything besides logic and reason is illegitimate and unwarranted (and, by implication, potentially dangerous as well). Implication 7: "Mind" is the same as human "minds". Since "mind" does not change, human minds (and the behavior that flows from it) does not change over time. Ergo, the study of history and the sciences of evolutionary biology (and all of the branches of biology that flow from it) and all of the other social sciences (anthropology, archaeology, economics, government, sociology, and related disciplines are, like psychology, illegitimate, unwarranted and a waste of time (and, by the same reasoning as Implication 6, potentially dangerous). Implication 8: Logic and reason have existed forever and do not change. Therefore, the philosophical disciplines of ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, ontology – indeed, all branches of philosophy except logic and "reason", can be reduced to logic and reason. Any suggestion that any of these disciplines has either or history or are not yet "settled" subjects is illegitimate, unwarranted and a waste of time (and again, by implication, potentially dangerous). Implication 9: Since "mind" precedes and completely constructs the entire physical universe and every object and process within it, then all we have to do to study and understand the physical universe and every object and process in it is to study the attributes and qualities of logic and reason (i.e. the entire constituents of "mind"). Any suggestion that any other disciplines (and especially those based on empirical analysis) is illegitimate, unwarranted and a waste of time (and potentially dangerous). Implication 10: As noted in Implication 6, any and all attempts to study the attributes or qualities of "mind" using empirical methods are illegitimate, unwarranted and a waste of time (and potentially dangerous). Based upon these implications, I would suggest that the following conclusions are warranted: Conclusion 1: Clive's philosophy of "mind" and philosophy of science are so at variance with the basic tenets of the philosophy of "mind" and philosophy of science since at least the time of Francis Bacon that any discussion of these topics (and, by extension, any aspect of the natural or social sciences) would quite literally consist of a clash of incommensurate worldviews, and would be a complete waste of his time and ours. Conclusion 2: Since Clive's worldview is almost completely at variance with the consensus worldview that underlies virtually all of modern science and much of modern philosophy, to continue to discuss any of these subjects (except, possibly, his conception of what constitutes "logic" and "reason"), further discussion or attempts to present countervailing evidence would be entirely futile. Indeed, what would even constitute "evidence" when one adopts the definition of "mind" to which Clive apparently "adheres"? In brief, I've got better and more interesting things to do with my time than argue with a throwback to the Scholastics...Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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With regard to Ludwig's statement that Denyse said Pascal Boyer has asserted that humans have an agent detection device that “disproves God’s existence beyond any reasonable doubt” and is “completely unreliable.” I can't find where she said that. Now, with regard to what Boyer says about hyperactive agent detection and its reliability: from the horse's mouth I don't think it's all that unfair to assert that Boyer subscribes to the view that "hyperactive agent dectection" leads to incorrectly attributing natural phenomena to supernatural forces. Further it is dishonest to insist that Boyer's claim that evolution caused us to create God and religion is significantly different that saying that God who created us and revealed Himself to us doesn't exist.tribune7
May 6, 2009
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Allen, you remember this back in post 37?
but rather by a desire to find a rationalization for “bad behavior”. This is, of course, just another example of ad hominem argumentation; par for the course, eh trib?
Now, what I wrote in post 34 wasn't ad hominen and it certainly wasn't personal, but rather than make an issue of it, I figured you were having a bad moment and simply wrote something stupid --saying you wrote something stupid is not ad hominen, btw, Allen -- and it would be best to let it pass. Then you write this: Based on long experience with the quality of her posts at this website, the answer is a most emphatic “yes” That is ad hominem and rather vicious ad hominem to boot. Now, I mean this in the most constructive sense but you really should learn to take it better and not dish it out so hard.tribune7
May 6, 2009
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Ludwig in #101 asked:
"Are these her journalistic standards? Just making assertions about other peoples’ views without any support?"
Based on long experience with the quality of her posts at this website, the answer is a most emphatic "yes". Not that this necessarily distinguishes her from most other journalists...Allen_MacNeill
May 6, 2009
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