Vivid recently reminded us of the painful, bloody lesson of history taught by Hitler’s seizure of power in 1933. I responded, noting:
[I]sn’t it interesting that the Reichstag Fire crisis isn’t a standard part of our general education package. It almost makes one wonder why it is that the story of how the most universally acknowledged unmitigatedly evil dictator seized absolute power through agit prop and lawfare is somehow pushed to the margins of our common fund of knowledge. Not quite a conspiracy of silencing but at least a common evasion of plain duty by those who inform and educate us. Ironically, on a topic where learning this is vital to defending our civilisation, the common thought association fed by dominant narratives will be that appeal to Hitler is fallacious and demonising. Not when it is manifestly relevant and counter-balances a narrative that actually does just such a demonisation . . .
I think it is important enough to actually put up a summary, and I further noted:
This is one time when Wikipedia’s admissions are at minimum relevant and mostly on target food for thought. (I think it is most likely that Hitler and co opportunistically exploited an ill-advised violent protest action by a likely half-mad youth IIRC one week before an election was due, to set an agit prop and lawfare juggernaut loose; that is, I don’t accept the perception that the Nazis set the fire themselves as a false flag operation . . . they were however primed to pounce on and use any convenient incident they could frame through narrative and institutional domination. The consequences were horrific.)
Accordingly, let us learn from that oh so humble source, Wikipedia, as it is forced by a forest of facts to admit:
The Reichstag fire (German: Reichstagsbrand,
listen (help·info)) was an arson attack on the Reichstag building, home of the German parliament in Berlin, on Monday 27 February 1933, precisely four weeks after Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany. Hitler’s government stated that Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch council communist, was the culprit, and it attributed the fire to communist agitators. A German court decided later that year that Van der Lubbe had acted alone, as he had claimed. The day after the fire, the Reichstag Fire Decree was passed. The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext to claim that communists were plotting against the German government, which made the fire pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany.
The first report of the fire came shortly after 9:00 p.m., when a Berlin fire station received an alarm call.[1] By the time police and firefighters arrived, the lower house ‘Chamber of Deputies’ was engulfed in flames. The police conducted a thorough search inside the building and accused Van der Lubbe. He was arrested, as were four communist leaders soon after. Hitler urged President Paul von Hindenburg to issue an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties and pursue a “ruthless confrontation” with the Communist Party of Germany.[2] After the decree was issued, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party’s parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from having a plurality to a majority, thus enabling Hitler to consolidate his power . . . .
After the November 1932 German federal election, the Nazi Party had a plurality, not a majority; the Communists posted gains.[7] Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor and head of the coalition government on 30 January 1933.[8] As chancellor, Hitler asked President Paul von Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag and call for a new parliamentary election. The date set for the elections was 5 March 1933.[9]
Hitler hoped to abolish democracy in a more or less legal fashion, by passing the Enabling Act. The Enabling Act was a special law that gave the Chancellor the power to pass laws by decree, without the involvement of the Reichstag. These special powers would remain in effect for four years, after which time they were eligible to be renewed. Under the Weimar Constitution, the President could rule by decree in times of emergency using Article 48.[10] During the election campaign, the Nazis alleged that Germany was on the verge of a Communist revolution and that the only way to stop the Communists was to put the Nazis securely in power . . . .
The day after the fire, at Hitler’s request, President Hindenburg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree into law by using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany, including habeas corpus, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, and the secrecy of the post and telephone.[18] These rights were not reinstated during Nazi reign. The decree was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered “friendly” to the Nazi cause. Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a Communist plot to take over Germany. Nazi Party newspapers then published this fabricated “news”.[18] This sent the German population into a panic and isolated the Communists further among the civilians; additionally, thousands of Communists were imprisoned in the days following the fire (including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany) on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. Speaking to Rudolph Diels about Communists during the Reichstag fire, Hitler said “These sub-humans do not understand how the people stand at our side. In their mouse-holes, out of which they now want to come, of course they hear nothing of the cheering of the masses.”[19] With Communist electoral participation also suppressed (the Communists previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the 5 March 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%.[20] This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People’s Party (who won 8% of the vote), a majority of 52% in the Reichstag.[20]While the Nazis emerged with a majority, they fell short of their goal, which was to win 50–55% of the vote that year.[20] The Nazis thought that this would make it difficult to achieve their next goal, passage of the Enabling Act giving Hitler the right to rule by decree, which required a two-thirds majority.[20] However, several important factors weighed in the Nazis’ favour, mainly the continued suppression of the Communist Party and the Nazis’ ability to capitalize on national security concerns. Moreover, some deputies of the Social Democratic Party (the only party that would vote against the Enabling Act) were prevented from taking their seats in the Reichstag, due to arrests and intimidation by the Nazi SA. As a result, the Social Democratic Party would be under-represented in the final vote tally. The Enabling Act passed easily on 23 March 1933, with the support of the right-wing German National People’s Party, the Centre Party, and several fragmented middle-class parties. The measure went into force on 24 March, effectively making Hitler dictator of Germany.[21]
The Kroll Opera House, sitting across the Königsplatz from the burned-out Reichstag building, functioned as the Reichstag’s venue for the remaining 12 years of the Third Reich’s existence.[22]
We could say to the latter, an appropriate venue.
Many sobering lessons lurk here, starting with, beware of being trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea. One may be trapped into a false dilemma, especially if one is not thinking straight due to how one is being manipulated by dirty big money and its bought and paid for spokesmen (who will of course have impeccable credentials). Frankly, the historical microcosm for such is Acts 27, taking the text there simply as a slice of literature, here, history, from the classical world.
In that context, I beg us to understand that the Left-Centre-Right [LCR] political spectrum model that dominates popular and even academic thought is deeply flawed, lending itself to manipulation of the perceived centre of safety:
So, instead, let us learn the lesson of the dirty Overton Window game:
The key thing to recall, is that given the sad history of Athenian democracy and the Peloponnesian war, as well as Ac 27 and much more recent history, democracies are inherently unstable though they also provide for otherwise unprecedented freedom with a good measure of protective order.
For such to happen, there must be stabilising cultural buttresses that lie beyond the rough and tumble of dirty, manipulative politics [thus, the inherent danger of totalising materialistic and/or radically secularist ideologies that are amoral and/or invite nihilism], and which provide a framework of moral guidance tied to core, built-in human characteristics of being morally governed. That, in turn, is why modern constitutional democracy emerged in the matrix of what was then self-consciously Christendom, as we can see reflected in Locke’s key remarks in his second essay on civil government:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov’t, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: “14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . “ and 13: “9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . “ Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
Hence, too, the power of Plato’s warning in The Laws, Book X:
Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . . [The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos — the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ –> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ –> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by “winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . ” cf a video on Plato’s parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ –> Evolutionary materialism — having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT — leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for “OUGHT” is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in “spin”), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ –> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ –> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush — as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [–> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
Hitler and co, also, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and co, have underscored the force of this over the past century. If we are instead to find a road of sound reformation, we would be well advised to look elsewhere. Wiberforce, for example, or Knibb, or Booth.
But then, that is always a challenge, one compounded enormously in a highly ideologised, deeply polarised increasingly radically secularist age. Such does not bode well, but we need to at least be aware before the needless storm. END
F/N, U/D Aug 8: Please please please falsify this message . . . if true this is beyond ridiculous:
U/D, 2:30 pm, Status, essentially confirmed. It is clear that there is unwillingness to recognise how abuse-prone such a system is.
F/N2: The hate behind the attack on Christians gathering in families for prayer is blatant:
Particularly note the turnabout projection of hate, labelling by invidious association and assumption that the stigmatised scapegoats — this includes families with children forfeit basic rights. This, is red guard rioting.
F/N3: Interview with Andy Ngo on Antifa
F/N4, Aug 11, a reminder on the McFaul Colour Revolution framework and the SOCOM insurgency escalator. First, the US State Dept report and Congressional Archive on abuse of mail-in voting in Ukraine, 2004 — I extensively highlighted this last year:
Next, the framework:
L & FP, 49: The Reichstag Fire-panic lesson on agit prop and lawfare
You mean things like respecting the results of elections here, don’t you?
BO’H:
Start from the specific historical context, the Wiemar Republic’s Constitution was excellent but the people were not ready for it, something had been broken that made them vulnerable to totalitarianism.
I think 100 years before, Heine warned:
In that context, let us listen to Provine:
Science as key cultural influence has a lot to answer for, so does Philosophy, so does History and frankly the whole Academy. Beyond, the media, chattering and political classes as well as the legal profession.
Now, of course you are trying a barbed red herring distractor. Unsurprisingly, it is led to a strawman caricature soaked in demonisation and subtly sparked into smoky flame.
Such a stunt needs an answer:
So, don’t even begin the stunt.
The pattern I saw surrounding the current US election has only one responsible explanation: massive, deeply entrenched election fraud that a mostly naive populace has been blind to . . . oh, we’re the leading country and we do things right.
Oh, sure.
There is in fact a deep history of major electoral fraud in the US and the ongoing attempt to cover up same with this cycle only further confirms the problem.
So, no, until the problems are fixed, the breakdown will become only more blatant.
Back to the focal point, why isn’t the sound history of the Reichstag fire and linked panic triggering dictatorship a core part of general education and knowledge?
Why don’t we recognise how vital it is to understand that we are rational, responsible, significantly free, morally governed creatures, starting with the testimony of conscience?
That, this implies that mindedness cannot be reduced to a computational substrate, thence the question of the built in oracle?
That, Plato’s Cave, Plato’s Ship of State, the Peloponnessian War and Ac 27 etc, all speak to the inherent instability of democracy, demanding cultural buttresses to protect us from the instability?
That, those who undermine such buttresses are no friends of liberty and the civil peace of justice?
KF
F/N: Goebbels on Churchill’s lie factory:
Hitler, in Mein Kampf follows the same turn-speech, turn-about projection technique, with of course Jews and Commies as the designated scapegoats:
The clip-source naively errs: “Hitler is not advocating the use of the “Big Lie,” and, far from creating it, he in fact is ascribing the “Big Lie” technique to the Jews and Marxists.”
Actually, it is far subtler, yes, the big lie has been there since a certain talking snake in Eden. What is done, is to project what one does to designated despised others, the better to spew our a squid ink cloud that confuses, the better to ambush if advancing, or to retreat if on the defensive. This exploits our recognition that truth is a duty and failure to imagine that one’s preferred sources could be so calculatedly diabolical. Next layer down, this is the cognitive dissonance game with projection of blame that first makes one seem the set-upon party, then eventually leads to cynical both are blameworthy refusal to address setting things right.
We now need to use this to see how scapegoats were set up for the Reichstag fire, and how a show trial was attempted. As the Courts were not yet under control, it didn’t go as was desired, but enough was spread to cloud the issue with an election just a week away and an enabling act vote shortly to follow.
Full of lessons.
KF
kf –
So much for the “stabilising cultural buttresses that lie beyond the rough and tumble of dirty, manipulative politics”. These “stabilising cultural buttresses”, you know: civil servants, the law courts, the Attorney General, have all been quite clear that there wasn’t widespread fraud. This was so clear even Trump’s lawyers said in court they weren’t bringing complaints about fraud.
🙂 Quite clear: CNN viewer . Hahaha. Who in the right mind would believe MSM and politicians todays?
Bob
“you know: civil servants, the law courts, the Attorney General, have all been quite clear that there wasn’t widespread fraud”
LOL. You need to take the red pill Bob not the blue one. To be clear voter fraud is as American as apple pie. Trump and his team needed to deal with it before the election, Joe Biden is my president however to appeal to career bureaucrats as the final authority on the matter is laughable. Anyway I don’t see how voter fraud is relevant to the Reichstag Fire playbook that I personally think is being employed to demonize, stigmatize and label all Trump supporters and political conservatives as racist white supremacist.s. We are going down a very dangerous path. Will see
Vivid
BO’H, no, cultural buttresses come in long before civil servants, courts or Attorneys General — all of which too often failed across C20, Milada Horakova’s judicial murder is for me iconic of that. To see duly robed and red hatted judges in the act of judicial murder is horrible and that is what happened there. There has to be a generations deep culture and mindset that leads to personal self regulation and profound agreement with the due balance of rights, freedoms and duties that defines the civil peace of justice. Historically, that came out of the ferment surrounding the printing revolution and the reformation, leading to the rise of a broad based public opinion [chocolate/coffee shops even contributed] and a civil matrix of people used to governing themselves in small civil institutions with a strong stamping of Christian tradition natural law thought at leadership and popular levels. What I am outlining was not possible — just on literacy and existence of newspapers etc — until the late 1600’s more or less, and it first fully emerged in the century from the Glorious Revolution to the American Revolution. KF
Vivid & LCD [attn BO’H], sadly, yes. The current US election system is manifestly, willfully conducive to large scale fraud and as recently as 1960 fraud was widely acknowledged as decisive. 1812, 1824 and 1876 come to mind and that points to deep issues that were in part addressed by amendment. The current system objectively cannot be explained as a system designed for high integrity in the face of determined fraudsters. BO’H would be well advised to consider what is done in the Caribbean, precisely because we have had to deal with serious fraud. I haven’t touched on other levels such as outright bribery or inducing people vulnerable into voting a certain way [sometimes, a dinner or a gift of a chicken is enough]. But such is not the main point, I am still waiting to learn why this notorious incident isn’t a core lesson on the way political systems can be destructively tampered with. This is how Hitler seized power and it directly ties to agit prop, lawfare and ill advised provisions in law. Election fraud concerns, censorship and linked agit prop etc were directly connected to the probably ill-advised protests partly turned low level riots and willfully mischaracterised thereafter that are being turned into an uncomfortable echo. KF
F/N: an interesting read from north of your border https://mindmatters.ai/2021/04/fear-of-twitter-is-beating-out-fear-of-robot-overlords/
One side has been declared the winner in the US presidential election in 2020. This side refuses to allow any investigation of the election accuracy even though proof of its accuracy would destroy the other side.
Strange behavior by a winner!
Aside from the accuracy of the results, one individual spent close to a half billion dollars in key states to change the normal voting procedures promoting policies advantageous to the declared winning side. Nothing like this has ever been done in the history of US elections.
From the root of materialism, there is left wing socialism (communism) and right wing socialism, (nazism).
As shown by China, who moved from left wing socialism, to right wing socialism over the last decades. Now China has genocidal policies against Tibetans, and Uyguy, a far reaching eugenics progam, with a eugenics culture in the population, and Han racism.
So basically China turned from a communist country, to a nazi country, while keeping true to it’s socialist and materialist roots.
Ofcourse they still assert themselves as being communists, and not as nazi’s, but that is only for reasons of continuity of political power.
MNY, actually, Nationalist China was fascist and significantly aligned with Germany. Indeed an eventual nationalist chinese general served in Hitler’s army as a junior officer, in connexion with training. Nazism is in fact just as the label on the tin says: national socialist german workers’ party. Communism and fascism are actually fairly close. KF
Bob O’H:
The democrats definitely didn’t respect the results of the 2016 election. And it is still difficult to believe that 82 million people voted for a puppet with dementia for the PoTUS.
F/N: Meanwhile, it is pretty clear that the Reichstag Fire case speaks for itself, in grim warning. Otherwise,you can bet your last cent it would have been pounced on. We need to ponder pointed questions as to this, the means by which Hitler destroyed the last vestiges of democracy and initiated dictatorship, are not routinely taught to all high school and lower division college students as a part of their civics requirement. I find that odd fact to be yet another Holmesian case of the dog that did not bark.
People inclined to believe legacy mainstream media might well want to have a look at this:
Why did the New York Times discredit the lab leak theory?
The Times led the way in zealously discrediting the quite reasonable COVID-19 lab leak theory. But what underlay its zeal?
https://mindmatters.ai/2021/08/why-did-the-new-york-times-discredit-the-lab-leak-theory/
David Rindsberg, author of The Gray Lady Winked, reveals some eye-opening financial ties between the Chinese Communist Party and the Times.
Jerry
“This side refuses to allow any investigation of the election accuracy even though proof of its accuracy would destroy the other side.”
https://www.con-alerts.com/biden-threatens-to-jail-election-auditors/
Vivid
The fire itself could have been an accident, and the outcome would have been the same. Those who seek power where power is denied by law, use any opportunity to expand their power. Hitler and his inner-circle had already laid out the groundwork to take advantage of any opportunity to come along. With or without the fire, Hitler would have found some means of coming to power.
As for the Nazis, during the Republic, being right wing, there were no right wing parties. In order to be on the right, one must want to conserve what is. No one wanted conserve the Republic. The closest to finding those on the right were the ones who wanted a return to what was. The other parties, including the National Socialists, were on the left.
Those on the right were the military and legal wings of government, which the Nazis did not absorb until towards the end. National Socialists, in order to have real power, absorbed the various left wing parties into them in much the same manner as Lenin did with his own political party. The two largest parties on the left, at one point, was the National Socialists and German Communists.
The SA, which predated the SS, were the communist wing of the Nazis that did grow over time.
News
“People inclined to believe legacy mainstream media might well want to have a look at this”
Anyone that still believes in legacy media outlets belong in a insane asylum. They are really, really stupid and should be awarded gold medals in stupidness because….here it comes…they are really really stupid.
Vivid
Jerry
“Nothing like this has ever been done in the history of US elections.”
Come on man it was perfectly normal for 5 critical swing states to stop counting all at the same time otherwise you would have no idea how many votes were needed for your side to win.
Vivid
For those of you saying widespread fraud was quite clear, why did AG Barr dismiss the claims in December? It was (a) his duty to make sure widespread fraud was investigated, and (b) to his advantage for there to be widespread fraud.
kf – I’ve no idea why Milada Horáková’s death 70 years ago in Czechoslovakia is relevant – the US courts didn’t convict her, and the regime (indeed the country) that did that to her doesn’t exist now. Bringing it up seems neither timely nor focussed.
A presidential election cannot be stolen. The Electors are free to vote for anyone they wish. The popular election is little more than a suggestion, but they remain free to vote for anyone they wish. States can try to pass laws locking in the electors, but it does not pass Constitutional muster.
As for using fraud to influence the electors, that is what happened with Kennedy. The mafia rigged the election in Kennedy’s favor.
An earlier attempt was the election of 1876, when the Democrats tried to steal the election from Hayes to give it to Tilden. They threatened to renew the war if the Republicans did not give them what they wanted. The agreement to end Reconstruction was the result of negotiations that kept the country from returning to a state of war.
I was taught the basics of the fire, but never the details that went into it. What I was not taught was the Soviet invasion of Poland. Despite the invasion occurring shortly after Germany, it is treated as if it never happened. Soviet and German troops met up as predesignated areas and advanced no further. Prisoner exchanges did take place between the two governments, including communist Jews who had fled the Nazis.
Germany’s invasion resulted in war being declared by European allies without a single word being spoken about the Soviet invasion.
BO’H: Ms Horakova is an historical example of how the Reichstag fire style fakery can be ginned up and pushed through a corrupted legal and media system, in her case a horrific judicial murder on a false narrative of rebellion. The involvement of judges in that case is especially heinous and it is a warning on what is possible in a state that not many years before had a highly viable democratic government. (1938, was a bit over a decade before.) This is also emblematic of what specifically Communist states did and likely continue to do with show trials. This too is a case that should be before our eyes. KF
PS: You will observe that I have not highlighted or speculated on personalities but on clear structural problems with the US elections system. Those problems red flag it as set up in ways that facilitate fraud. I note that in a high trust culture, the truly nihilistic can do a lot because many cannot bring themselves to believe what is happening, as the Reichstag fire incident demonstrates. And part of the damage done by such is to damage the cultural fabric of trust. Something that takes generations to build. What happens to a community when you can only half-trust close blood relatives and tested friends known since early childhood, all others are potential enemies likely trying to get an advantage at any price? Do you see the mutual ruin that flows from such?
PPS: I add, I would cancel blackbox gadget driven elections [with inevitably questionable provenance and chain of custody], through and through, across the board. Transparency, in one word. Paper has a major advantage inasmuch as it is a physical artifact that reflects its specific history, which is open to forensic cross check, even a folding of paper is a unique, readable event. Optical scans with stored paper might work but I am aware of issues with sharpies. I favour microparticle laced inks that can have traceable lots. Much more can be said.
BR, material fraud and trickery are notoriously on record with US elections, and this includes electoral college manipulations as in 1812 and 1876. You yourself note on 1960. Yes, the Electors bear particular responsibility as the general vote is actually a vote to set up said College. And yes, the College bears direct responsibility for whoever is elected by them, however, material fraud undermines whatever it taints, legally and as a matter of credibility. Technically, the US is not a Democracy but a Constitutional, Representative Republic, with democratic characteristics counterbalanced by safeguards. KF
PS: At last, someone taught about some of the Reichstag incident. And yes the USSR struck a devil’s bargain with Germany in 1939, also earlier on development of key military technologies such as tanks, aircraft and IIRC artillery, yes years before Hitler took power. It may not be a coincidence that both developed somewhat similar tank driven doctrines, Deep Battle formally, informally what we call Blitzkrieg.
PPS: Yes, they likely would have ginned up something else later on once they had critical mass, the Reichstag Fire incident accelerated their rise to power. Don’t forget, Hindenburg died about a year later.
How can any reasonable person make that claim absent widespread forensic audits of the vote?
Vivid, sadly, you are right to raise your concerns. We need to soberly ponder the Reichstag Fire incident and what it can teach us. KF
WJM, I think you raise a key question, though the officials likely presumed a safe high integrity system that did not throw flags that seemed important to them. I see a deeply flawed system willfully conducive to fraud, starting with identification and chain of scrutineered custody issues. My second biggest concern, on mail in ballots, is actually tied to a report put in to Congress on the Ukraine, 15 years back or so. KF
WJM @ 26 – indeed, and there were several audits, which found no evidence of widespread fraud. This included going back to the paper ballots to check them.
kf highlighted the issue of trust @ 24. This is a good example of it – the actions of those pushing the fraud theory have eroded trust in the election, in officials from their own party, and in the courts.
F/N: What it looks like when you are targetted with the process is the punishment: https://rumble.com/vkp4yf-part-4-dr.-simone-gold-exposes-the-severity-of-scientific-censorship.html KF
Bob O’H:
I asked:
You responded:
Were those forensic audits? How many forensic audits have there been? I’m sure you know the difference between an internal audit and a forensic audit.
Bob O’H:
People can say anything, Bob. Barr didn’t conduct any investigation at that point so his words at that time are meaningless.
The democrats cried Russian collusion for 4 years, Bob. And they failed to find any evidence for it.
You described the democrats from 2016 to 2020.
BO’H, you neatly omitted the responsibilities of those who set up a system that was willfully conducive to fraud. There is in fact a considerable body of serious testimony and circumstantial evidence of such fraud, and the coordinated cessation of voting and linked switches in key states is a further outright signature. So, no, those pointing to the problem are not the cause3 of the problem. forensic audit is called for and seems to be going on in one location, facing . . . stonewalling, stonewalling that had this been Watergate, would have been 24/7 headlines. The dogs that are not barking are another sign, and yes that Holmes story was on an inside job. KF
The USA now how a puppet with dementia as our PoTUS. So, again, it is easy to see why sane people are crying fraud over the 2020 election.
Mass media has destroyed the minds of many. We are reaping the benefits.
Andrew
WJM – a forensic audit seems to be an audit of financial records, so I’m not sure what your point is.
ET – you didn’t answer my question.
kf – your “serious testimony” was tested in court and failed. Basically, outside of the Trumposphere almost nobody thinks they are serious. That includes William Barr, Trump’s own AG.
Bob O’H said:
A forensic audit – whether of financial records or of a vote – is an audit that is conducted by an independent investigator for the purpose of establishing and collecting evidence that is admissible in a court of law, in case evidence of wrongdoing is found.
An internal audit is when the people in charge of the financial records or the officers and personnel in charge of collecting and tallying the votes conduct the audit themselves.
If fraud was committed, or is suspected of being committed, by the officers and personnel in charge, you can clearly see the problem posed by any internal audit.
The reason why forensic audits are done is to restore or establish trust that the process was not subject to internal fraud or mishandling, and to ensure the evidential and investigatory process used, and those who perform the audit, are qualified to investigate, collect and handle any evidence of criminal activity. Internal auditors may or may not be trained or qualified for this aspect of a forensic audit.
So, when an internal audit is conducted by people that may be covering their own crimes or have a conflict of interest if they find problems, how are we supposed to trust that process?
Furthermore, internal audits are not designed to find, follow up on, or collect evidence of criminal activity because they are not being done by an outside, third party agency trained and qualified to do exactly that.
So, when you say “There have been audits and no evidence of widespread fraud has been found,” that claim has no valid basis by which to make that assessment unless they were forensic audits.
So, the question I posed is crucial: were the audits you speak of forensic audits? If not, they have nothing whatsoever to say about whether or not there was fraud, much less “widespread fraud.”
BO’H: we were all watching and saw how the courts took every trick and stunt to block bringing evidence into court; that this was then spun as failing on hearing speaks. Further to this, audits go far beyond financials as well you know; as “forensic” implies, such would be towards court-worthy evidence, given indicators of wrong doing. The fundamental matter remains, a willfully fraud conducive system speaks for itself. Beyond a certain point, fatal disaffection will be triggered, but then key factions of the global elites seem to imagine they can get along well enough without the US Navy. Big mistake. China’s blue ocean breakout push, a part of this, will only lead to Japan assembling and mounting nukes, S Korea going nuke, Taiwan too, likewise Australia, possibly Singapore. Add in India and Pakistan with Iran and see if that does not point straight to nuclear war. KF
PS: I continue to notice that the usual objectors refuse to touch the Reichstag fire incident and its implications as a warning from history with a ten foot insulated pole. I ask yet again, why is this not part of our common fund of key moments of history? After all, this is how a democracy was subverted and turned into a destructive, demonic dictatorship.
F/N: Let’s continue the expose, the turn-speech, turnabout projection tactic.
While Hitler, Goebbels et al used many, many devious manipulative techniques, two are outstanding. Already, we pointed to the big lie (too big to be false), drummed in through repetition. We also hinted at the other, projection to the despised other, often through turn-speech, turnabout projection. Notice, in Hitler’s and Goebbels’ discussions, it is the Jews, the Bolsheviks, the British who are being held up as big liars. No, no, not poor, innocent, stabbed in the back Germany.
This already draws out an effect of turnabout projection, it creates the impression that the accuser is a victim with a legitimate grand complaint. So, in all justice, the victim needs to defend himself. This is the he hit back first effect.
With the Reichstag Fire incident, it was a Communist conspiracy to burn down the very symbol of Germany’s democratic experiment. So, in the emergency, revert to the ancient Roman practice, dictatorship.
A second facet is, blunting cognitive dissonance through blaming a seemingly demonic scapegoat.
A subtler effect is tainting and polarisation, the accused other is dragged down into the mud and even if one has questions about the claims, the toxic, confusing, polarising cloud taints all it touches. Such of course sets up the next accusation. And the one after that, too.
Multiply by censorship and intimidation, and soon, it is all but impossible to have honest, sober minded, serious, fact and logic based discussion.
So, the trick is to avoid going down that road in the first instance.
But once that has begun, the best we can do is to expose it and insist on responsible discussion. Insisting, on getting history-anchored background clear and sorting through what is morally certain, what is so on balance of probabilities, what is speculative, what is false or error, what is slander, what is scapegoating, etc.
Not easy but necessary.
KF
They had the images of ballots that were exactly the same, with the exactsame twirls of the pen. Obviously duplicate fraud votes.
And then there was the pattern, of first a massive dump of votes for Biden, and then dozens of batches of votes after that, with the exact same percentage for Trump and Biden each.
The USA election was a fraud. The USA is not actually a representative republic doing the will of the people. The people of the USA do not want an open southern border. Do not want critical race theory. Yet the government, does these things, by cheating at the elections. Also censorship, media manipulation, and using the government agencies to persecute political dissent. It is just the same what socialists do in every other country.
Ah, WJM, you mean an independent audit. I think the approach in the US is to have the audits open to observers, so partisans on both sides can observe and see if there are any irregularities. This has the advantages that (a) it encourages the auditors to stick to the rules, and (b) sidesteps questions over the independence of the auditors. Ultimately the audit should be accurate and fair, so I think that is more important than whether it was independent. So I don’t know if any were independent, but Trump’s supporters had the opportunity to monitor the audits.
An example of changing the US form of government by fiat not by votes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9alsxM8SOM
No they didn’t. That is the issue.
In Arizona they did but the results have not been published yet. Maybe it will uphold the election there.
F/N: Where this predictably goes:
Sounds familiar?
KF
I think the biggest red flag for me is the willingness of “Big Tech” to go along with squelching any conversation about fraud. Twitter banned the official auditor account in Arizona, for example.
If there is nothing to fear, then no one will lose anything by allowing this thing to exhaust itself. If there was no fraud, then let those crying fraud be proved as frauds themselves. The best disinfecting agents, time and sunlight, will establish the facts in the end.
I, for one, sincerely hope there was no fraud. I hate to think about the prospects of living in a land where my vote is meaningless and powerful and well-heeled forces override our republican foundations.
Jerry
“In Arizona they did but the results have not been published yet. Maybe it will uphold the election there.”
I live in Arizona, Maricopa County refuses to comply with subpoenas issued by the state legislature.
Vivid
Bob O’H said:
No, Bob, I mean a forensic audit. That’s why I used that term in my question: “How can any reasonable person make that claim absent widespread forensic audits of the vote?”
That’s why I explained to you what a forensic audit was, and what the purpose of a forensic audit is. Were you unclear what I meant after I explained what “forensic audit” meant?
So my question remains: were the audits you referred to forensic audits? If not, how can they be considered to be a credible perspective about whether or not criminal fraud occurred?
I just added an image of the Reichstag Fire, we need an icon
William J Murray/37
The problem with a forensic audit in such a deeply-divided partisan political environment would be to find an “independent investigator” that would be acceptable to both of the contending political parties. We have seen that Trump will simply reject any finding that is not acceptable to him and he is not alone. It would be easy enough for either side to challenge the objectivity and impartiality of the investigator. It wouldn’t matter if they couldn’t provide evidence to support such allegations, their mere existence would be more than enough to convince their followers of the truth of the claims, as we have seen with claims of widespread electoral fraud at the ballot counts. The presence of partisan observers didn’t prevent such claims, nor could they if some of those observers were prepared to lie about what they saw. Do you doubt that their are more than enough who believe in ‘no smoke without fire’ my party/leader right or wrong who would do that?
The real danger is that if there is no means of independent investigation and adjudication of such claims which can command bipartisan support, there is only one obvious alternative.
Sev, it is clear what a forensic audit is, and that nothing will ever satisfy the party that began an ugly campaign of accusations and utter radicalisation in 2015, capitalising on rioting and Red Guardism across last year, calling for outright abolition of police, a campaign which continues unabated; so-called bipartisanship is dead. (That is itself a revealing public fact about lawlessness.) So, that is self-disqualifying. Now that what such an audit is is settled . . . including that such seeks to create courtroom ready findings, I suggest that this thread has a different focus, lessons to be learned from how a notorious dictator seized power. KF
PS: Observation was repeatedly, on public record frustrated, and in some cases was worse than merely token. That too is part of the evidence that was locked out last year.
KF
,” I suggest that this thread has a different focus, lessons to be learned from how a notorious dictator seized power. KF”
Starting with the Reichstag Fire, the subsequent Reichstag Decree and there is another disturbing parallel to what is going on in the US to Hitlers Germany which has to do with the police. One could say that without exaggeration that he effectively “defunded” local police forces.
Although we have not yet seen the implementation of “ the enabling act” we are dangerously close to some kind of Americanized version of it. The unconstitutional infringement on property rights ( eviction moratorium), free speech, etc is what totalitarians traffic in.
Vivid
OA94,
imposition of censorship was part of the Reichstag Fire panic reaction. Censorship is an important issue and we need to realise that it is not just a state or state-church issue.
Censorship power arises from domination, by one entity or by a collective, of main means of communication in a community or in an isolated sub-culture. Once that power is used to enforce an agenda, it undermines liberty, especially when the censored are being scapegoated and slandered/demonised as well as marginalised.
In the case of the US, the poor state of defamation law opens doors to slander and demonisation. Further, the Comms Decency Act Sec 230 protection of key providers of Internet, intended to protect carriers, is being twisted into a shield for censorship feeding a politically correct agenda. Financial attacks on startup alternatives show, further, that go get your own network is a cynical lie.
Holding carriers who turn censors accountable for messaging — they are now publishers, not carriers — is one step.
I think providers of network services should be viewed and regulated as utilities also, and in certain cases should be broken up as monopolistic or cartel-oligopolistic.
For a lot of software, I would switch to open source and run away from software as leased service models, including go Linux if possible.
Those who represent communities liable to be attacked should emphasise network security and freedom of association from the outset of their communication and networking strategies. Where possible, use your own server racks and open source alternatives to host your networks and services, forming an Intranet, with managed external access. I would very carefully limit bandwidth-heavy services, esp video. And there is here a role for print newsletters, newspapers and magazines.
Similarly, consider creating online based education alternatives, at least as a supplement.
And so forth.
Times are hard and are liable to get worse.
KF
Vivid, the parallels, sadly, beg to be drawn. Also, there are obvious parallels to the Mao coup by Red Guard uprising in 1966. The lost decade that followed is horrific record. The McFaul colour revolution framework and the 4th generation war analysis also make disturbing reading. We went through a fair amount of that last year but there was attack-accuse-dismiss every inch of the way. KF
PS: The unfolding pandemic fiasco is also relevant.
Jerry @ 42 –
*sigh* Do you really know so little about US elections? Yes, they did have the chance. The usual audits of the elections allow observers in from the parties.
OldArmy94 –
You should ask kf about “the big lie”, and whether it would have been better to have stopped that.
WJM @ 46 –
So not one run by an independent investigator?
I don’t know, because your explanations seem contradictory.
BO’H: turnabout projection. Start with the evidence of serious misconduct during the election, proneness to fraud [start with ID’s issues] and the like. Part of what frustrates sound action in such a polarised, clouded toxic situation is refusal to hear concerns that are legitimate. KF
PS: It seems the first forensic audit is in process in AZ, and is facing stonewalling as well as demonisation attempts.
Audit? As if they can go door-to-door verifying everyone’s vote. That is what it would take. Are there really 82 million dolts in the USA who voted for a puppet with dementia for the PoTUS? That I would like to see verified. The USA is not a better place to live with Biden as President.
Bob @53:
From my explanation of what a “forensic audit” is in comment #37, bolded parts for emphasis:
Not all independent audits are forensic audits. Forensic audits are both independent and conducted by investigators trained and qualified to find and handle evidence for criminal proceedings in court.
You need both of those aspects in order to make a qualified, credible, independent assessment of whether or not there is evidence of criminal fraud or any other criminal activity.
I hope that clears it up. Now, to your knowledge, have there been any forensic audits, anywhere, of the 2020 vote?
BTW Bob, the fact that you don’t already know these distinctions and properties of what these “audit” terms mean, indicates you have not been qualified to assess the value of statements from public officials when they talk about audits, what the audits do or do not show, or whether or not there is or is not any evidence of “widespread” vote fraud.
Until forensic audits are conducted, no statements by public officials or anyone else about what various “audits” show have any significant credibility, either pro or con.
Should this be called the “sigh” rebuttal? You have no idea of what I know or have read.
Do they? How many did and how many didn’t? From what I understand there was little transparency in many of the audits. And the discussion indicates there are different ways fraud could have taken place. We’re all avenues of fraud eliminated as an explanation for the results?
Jerry, I already pointed out the right kind of scrutineering, from at voter registration to voting to counting, I didn’t mention COURT recounts and recounts by the INDEPENDENT electoral commission. When I saw vids and pics of observers dozens of feet from the action, I shook my head. That would not even defeat a basic crooked cashier in a corner shop. Then, there were the cardboard screens to block observation. Then there was the send ’em home and midnight counting caught on vid. Then, there was a certain lady from India worrying her rosary as worry beads as she spoke the painful and to her frightening truth. And much more. That is just the election. There is so much more about dirty form McFaul colour revolutions, Red Guard tactics, media gaslighting and much more. I get the distinct impression, it cannot happen here is setting up a catastrophe. Indeed, I recall the pre fatal eruption situation here, where officialdom had neurotics with visions of disaster as the marginalised fringe, they had the probabilities all comfortably figured out, utterly unaware that the mountain six miles south of here was in the process of tearing up and rewriting the book on Volcanology. I keep saying a 4th gen war, in certain low kinetic forms does not seem to be a war to many people, it can go as unrest, protest, even political violence, even court cases and legislature committees or debates etc . . . and do I dare add, pandemics* and other cases of never let a crisis go to waste? KF
* PS: I don’t like to raise such, but, what was the timeline on vaccine rollout in China relative to the acknowledged outbreaks there and overseas from there? How long does vax development reasonably take relative to the point where an agent is already identified? And how long would that identification and confirmation take from a standing start? Does the window of time make sense? (And no, I am not asking about testing for long term effects and issues.)
ET, properly done samples of claimed voter segments would show up patterns long before we got to a full census. KF
A new voter website
https://voteref.com/press_releases/1-unprecedented-election-transparency-website-launches
I’m not sure this is a good thing. Gives everyone access to everyone in country and their voting records. Could easily be abused.
Jerry, in the current agit prop climate, such is indeed dangerous and sets a further dangerous precedent. Doxxing on file, only a few clicks and keystrokes away, an invitation to cyber stalking and Red Guards visits from Hell. KF
Jerry/60
For once you, kf and I are in full agreement. There are good reasons for secret ballots. I hope that there will be legal action taken immediately to block this outrageous assault on voter privacy and electoral integrity.
kf @54 –
The concerns were heard. There were about 60 court cases. They were also heard by the Attourney General, who didn’t think they were legitimate.
WJM @56 –
Ah, so you mis-wrote @ 46 by saying forensic audits weren’t independent audits. You mea ththey were, but the definition went beyond that.
Not by your definition. But the training to handle criminal evidence seems weird, and it may be that some audits have been run by people who are forensic auditors. But this is a standard that doesn’t seem to have come up before.
The only one that I’m aware of that hasn’t is the “forensic” audit being carried out by CyberNinjas on Maricopa County. Most states explicitly allow observers, either the public or appointed poll watchers. Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Rhode Island and South Carolina don’t specify if observers can be present. Alabama, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, New Hampshire and South Dakota don’t have requirements for audits.
I’m sure they weren’t, but I’m also sure the officials tried their best. And did a pretty good job, as there hasn’t been any credible evidence of large-scale fraud.
BO’H, concerns have been stigmatised, marginalised, largely locked out. The case of some 20 states with the US Supreme Court is particularly manifest. The Constitutionally legitimate body in AZ is belatedly acting through a forensic audit, which already corroborates concerns on public facts. I am not impressed that officials who changed election procedures while circumventing the clear Constitutional mandate that such is the purview of state legislatures, can be said to have even tried to do their best. I highlight resistance to proper voter ID, poor chain of custody, undermining of scrutineering and the multiplication of a notoriously fraud prone system, correspondence voting. The onward contrast between a summer of red guard haunted destructive rioting and the Reichstag fire agit prop surrounding a single, far less destructive incident, leading to what has to be called political prisoners is troubling. When I contemplate potential geostrategic consequences, I shudder. KF
Dead people voted, Bob. And the fact that 82 million people allegedly voted for a puppet with dementia needs to looked into.
kf @ 64 –
Yes, because they’ve been repeatedly shown to not have any merit. This isn’t the view of partisans on the left, it’s the view of the courts (including Trump appointees) and other Republican politicians. It’s only Trump partisans who think there’s a problem.
I notice nobody has tried to explain why Bill Barr wasn’t saying there was fraud, if there’s all of this supposed evidence. Shouldn’t that at least make you pause to think?
BTW, that’s not a forensic audit by WJM’s definition.
The Democrats now and then.
https://thenationalpulse.com/news/biden-linked-group-backed-audits/
By the way I understand there is no one officially certified to do an audit of elections in the US. The ways to cheat on an election increased substantially because of C19 and new voting procedures that there is no recognized standard method to detect fraud.
BO’H: nope, it is obvious the courts feared the accusation that they decided the election in 2000 and punted in the face of red guards. Things moved to a Reichstag Fire agit prop incident. Now, it is going to the auditors and state legislatures. AZ is the beginning. When this is over, no-ID, blackbox machine, no close — arm’s length — scrutineering and the invitation to fraud mail and harvested votes will be utterly discredited. And I don’t need to be a Trump fan, only one well aware that the US Navy is the bruised reed substitute for the Royal Navy of old as guardian of the global peace, and to be familiar with the designed to be sound beyond reasonable doubt voting systems of the Afro-Caribbean. Which I have outlined already and which you studiously ignored. It is easy to see that the current chaos of the US is highly conducive to fraud, which given concerns on longstanding record, has to be willful. Complacency, I suspect is the root. KF
Bill Barr is generally considered to be corrupt as well by conservatives, no mystery why he didn’t call out the fraud.
And this kind of referring to authority figures to say that no fraud occurred, is meaningless.
I remember the chief of election security saying these were the safest elections in us history.
“give you 50 bucks for your signed mail in vote”. That is all it takes to corrupt the system. When some government official says, this was the safest elections ever, it only proves that they are lying, and therefore corrupt.
In Antrim county they did a manual recount of the vote, just based on a hunch that the numbers from the machines were inaccurate. It turned out their hunch was right, the machines shifted thousands of votes from Trump to Biden.
So all the evidence it took to do a manual recount, was just a hunch that the results were inaccurate.
There is more than a hunch, there is legitemate sucpicion, and affadvit evidence, statistical analysis, that the elections in the USA were fraudulent. Then you obviously need to check it.
Trump derangement syndrome is very real, and widespread. Lots of people would be willing to cheat at elections to get rid of Trump, both Democrats and Republicans.
But these voting systems were built for a high trust culture. It requires a lot of work, a lot of cost to check it, because it was not designed to really be checked. It cannot really be verified to the exclusion of largescale fraud.
So then basically the USA is not really a representative Republic anymore.
MNY, you raised the issue of a high trust culture. One with high social capital. This points to the cultural buttresses I noted on earlier. Once such breaks down, the barriers to lawlessness disintegrate and there is a slide into lawlessness thus tyranny. A major component of such buttresses has been the manifestly eroding Gospel and Gospel ethics heritage; note Heine’s literary prophecy for Germany. We don’t know the fire we play with and won’t realise what value what we are on trend to lose has, until we find out consequences and how hard it is to come back up from the bottom of the cliff. KF
Bob
“I notice nobody has tried to explain why Bill Barr wasn’t saying there was fraud, if there’s all of this supposed evidence. Shouldn’t that at least make you pause to think?”
Hard to take your question seriously since your referring to the same Justice Department that the FBI is part of that attempted a silent coup against Trump. Of course you will say Barr was Trumps appointee as if that means the permanent Justice Departments bureaucratic class all of a sudden reformed their corrupt ways.
Vivid
KF
“BO’H: nope, it is obvious the courts feared the accusation that they decided the election in 2000 and punted in the face of red guards.”
KF like these jack booted fascists?
https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-antifa-assault-families-and-children-at-christian-prayer-event-in-portland-park
Vivid
MNY
“So then basically the USA is not really a representative Republic anymore.”
I have taken the red pill sadly you are correct. I forget if it was Marx, Trotsky,Lenin ,Stalin or some other authoritarian who said something like “ it’s not the voters that matter but rather matters are those who counts the votes”
Vivid
Bob
I don’t think it should be that surprising that Trumpsters distrust the Government and virtually every major cultural institution in the US. This is a really good read.
https://americanmind.org/salvo/the-disillusionment-of-the-deplorables/
“Many of them don’t know for certain whether ballots were faked in November 2020, but they know for absolute certain that the press, the FBI, etc., would lie to them if there was. They have every reason to believe that, and it’s probably true. They watched the press behave like animals for four years. Tens of millions of people will always see Brett Kavanaugh as a gang rapist, based on nothing, because of CNN. And CNN seems proud of that. They led a lynch mob against a high school kid. They cheered on a summer of riots. “
“At first, many Trump supporters were worried there must be some collusion, because every media and intelligence agency wouldn’t make it up out of nothing. When it was clear that they had made it up, people expected a reckoning. When that didn’t happen, they shed many illusions about their government. “
“We also know, as fact:”
That the fraudulent Steele Dossier was the sole evidence used to justify spying on the Trump campaign,
That the FBI knew the Steele dossier was a DNC op,
That Steele’s source told the FBI the info was unserious, and
That they did not inform the court of any of this and kept spying.
Trump supporters know this collusion case front and back. They went from worrying the collusion must be real, to suspecting it might be fake, to realizing it was a scam. Then they watched as every institution—agencies, the press, Congress, academia—gaslit them for another year. “
Vivid
Bob
“So now think back: Stories about Trump being pissed on by Russian prostitutes and blackmailed by Putin were promoted as fact, and the only evidence was a document paid for by his opposition and disavowed by its source. And then the New York Post was banned for reporting on true information”
“The reaction of Trump people to all this was not, “no fair!” That’s how they felt about Romney’s “binders of women” in 2012. This is different. Now they see, correctly, that every institution is captured by ppl who will use any means to exclude them from the political process. And yet they showed up in record numbers to vote. He got 13 million more votes than in 2016—10 million more than Hillary Clinton. As election night dragged on, Trump supporters allowed themselves some hope.”
“But when the four critical swing states (and only those states) went dark at midnight, they knew. “
https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/vegas-oddsmaker-says-the-fix-was-in-trump-was-robbed-this-election-was-stolen/
Vivid
Bob,
KF said:
You responded:
From the Washington Examiner, March 31, 202:
From the Digital Discovery website: https://digitaldiscoveryesi.com/
From the CyFir website:
Their website goes on to say they offer “Forensic Grade” investigations into a variety of things having to do with computerized systems. https://www.cyfir.com/investigator/
Are you saying the group assembled are not qualified forensic auditors? If so, why?
Vivid:
Why isn’t this 24/7 news, as a riot and hate crime?
That alone tells us a lot and it ‘ent pretty.
KF
PS: This is precisely the kind of breakdown of lawfulness that shows erosion of cultural buttresses and a slide into lawless tyranny. If you read on you will see families assembling for prayer compared to alleged fascist churches in Spain during their horrific, war crime filled civil war and used to justify stealing food and water on claim is was to be distributed to the masses. That trips so many red flags it isn’t funny.
kf @ 69 –
Really? I take it you can point to a legal analysis by a credible lawyer that explains the legal errors made by the many judges when they made their decisions. Because if you don’t have any evidence that the judges made legal errors, then it seems more likely that they made the right decisions.
it’s already been to them. Perhaps you don’t remember but every state legislature sent their representatives to vote. There were also several audits done (I don’t know how many, sorry).
I ignored your comments about voting systems of the Afro-Caribbean because they didn’t seem relevant. I don’t think they trained many US election workers.
mohammadnursyamsu –
That’s a nice way to undermine your argument. So he could have said there was fraud because there was, or because there wasn’t but he was corrupt, and kept in the good graces of his rather powerful boss.
And is there evidence that this was done? On a large enough scale to swing several states?
Which Antrim County is this? It’s obviously not the one in Michigan, where the hand recount changed by 12 votes. Perhaps you’re confusing it with another Antrim in the US. Or with the (brief) flip of votes that occurred when Antrim County’s results were reported. This was quickly spotted and corrected.
Vividbleu @ 72 – no, I wasn’t referring to the department, but to Bill Barr specifically.
Vividbleu @ 75 –
No, the way Trump & co. have been attacking the “Deep State”.
WJM @ 77 – go back to your definition of a forensic audit, and then check each aspect. If you want it to be short, start with “independent” and look into the boss of the Cyber Ninjas. It might also help if you present evicdence that these companies have been accepted as expert witnesses in criminal courts, where they have presented audits as evidence.
BO’H: Enough has been given to show why there are serious concerns. You are inadvertently showing the dismissiveness of the elites that fails to understand that we are at threshold of fatal disaffection. Across the past six years, the media discredited themselves. Just now, there is an incident of further Antifa, red guard riots, I bet there will be no obsessive 24/7 news cycle on a severe breach of the civil compact, attacking core freedoms through the slander you are fascists and so down to your CHILDREN you are prey that we can treat with violence with impunity. When it comes to the legal and court systems, they failed over the same period so it is unsurprising that the Supreme Court ducked a decisive case, in a climate where we all know what was trumpeted for years after an obviously manipulative recount was stopped in 2000. I suggest to you that you refresh what was discussed here over the period since Summer 2020, and read the history of Mao’s Red Guard coup . . . Wikipedia, wonder of wonders, has a good 101. Look up the McFaul Colour Revolution, noting how easily it becomes a Reichstag incident power push. Notice in passing how a pandemic was exploited, including suppression of effective treatments which would have allowed a far less authoritarian solution, now ranging into no man could buy or sell save he take the mark territory. Then, have some patience and open mindedness to see what the audit in progress and facing stonewalling to protect blackbox voting machines uncovers. We already have reason to believe it isn’t pretty. Did you ever wonder how Hitler could pull off converting a democracy into a dictatorship? What did you conclude, why? Did you ever wonder why China is making a blue ocean push and has literally threatened to nuke Japan, with nary a peep of protest globally? And much more. KF
PS: Deep state is a synonym for tainted establishment, something that should be familiar since the 60s and should be uncontroversial, the matter is just which factions currently dominate and their agenda. It actually took out an ad in a major paper, and the Steele dossier fiasco shows who threw the first flurry of punches and kicks. Did you protest the abuse of was it $45 mn of state funds and institutional power to carry forward an investigation on such a flimsy basis of accusation? Show us where ____, and tell us your specific arguments of protest ______, if you cannot, you don’t have a leg to stand on in face of the eyewitness testimony, videos, vote dumps after coordinated stop count, resort to known fraud prone voting systems, exposure of training of poll workers in frustrating . . . not facilitating . . . observation (much less proper at arm’s length scrutineering), exposure of what the voting machines can do and their history etc etc etc. He hit back first is a form of turnabout agit prop tactics.
kf –
Oh, I’m sure the elites are fully aware of the “threshold of fatal disaffection”. In case you weren’1t aware, it was literally fatal on Jan 6th.
For anyone except partisan Trump supporters, the concerns aren’t serious, because they have been investigated and shown to not have any merit.
BO’H: yes, it looks like a police officer shot an unarmed protester effectively without warning; I have a nagging suspicion there was nonsensical speculation about potential for suicide bombing or the like. I shouted stop but it was a noisy environment doesn’t cut it. It looks like one or two others were crushed when police used flashbangs etc on a crowd leading to a crush. Dozens or hundreds are in gaol under dubious circumstances, facing massively over-charged accusations. One officer had several strokes and died a few days later; media falsely claimed murdered by rioters and there has never been a sound explanation, retraction and apology. The agit prop name is, atrocity stories. . Four to date have committed suicide, a questionable cluster. Meanwhile antifa etc continue apace. Accusations of armed rebellion, insurrection and instigation have been taken up by politicians, media and policing agencies, in the face of what is better described as an ill advised rally and march that had a fringe of disorderly behaviour. Much more can be said, and the ongoing audit process will tell us much more. Your unwillingness to acknowledge that the US election system has many public fact gross fraud conducive defects speaks, meanwhile. BTW, all of this is all too tellingly familiar to me, I have seen a 4th gen civil war up close and personal. A generation from now, many will still be in denial. We can only hope the damage to the US and globally, including geostrategic consequences, will not be catastrophic. I confess to my doubts. Grandchildren will rise up and call us, for cause, accursed. KF
F/N: Wikipedia inadvertently exposes how Mao used the Red Guards as cannon fodder for a coup after his blunders had cost much harm and led to curtailment of his power:
The links to the Reichstag Fire incident beg to be drawn.
KF
F/N: Please, somebody, tell me that the notice I am about to append to OP is false. Please, please, please. This extension of correspondence voting (already fraud conducive) is simply over the top if true. KF
Kairosfocus/80
Yes, there are very serious concerns, such as why and how one of the largest constitutional democracies in the world could be shaken by a hodge-podge of ramshackle, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. Like you, I have looked at one website which aggregated all the supposed evidence for the Big Lie and I would love to hear how you think any of it would stand up in court when judged by Simon Greenleaf’s standards of evidence.
Yes, there is widespread disaffection, among the poor, the disadvantaged, the dispossessed and those subject to blatant discrimination on the grounds of race or creed.
When the plight of 45 million of the population of the richest country in the world who could not afford even basic health insurance could not be ignored, Obamacare was created. This immediately became anathema to Trumpicans who did everything in their power to undo it, even though they had – and still have – nothing but hot air to replace it.
So who has done more to help those who really need it?
Jan 6 was not an “Antifa, red guard riot”.
The most recent Department of Homeland Security bulletin warns of a growing domestic terror threat, not from Antifa but from white supremacists.
And you don’t address legitimate and long-standing grievances of minorities – exemplified by the Tulsa Race Massacre or all the bodies found buried in unmarked graves at the sites of the now-notorious so-called boarding schools for native American children – by smears about Antifa, Red Guard riots or wokeness.
The whole world faces a host of daunting challenges such as the potentially-devastating long-term impacts of global climate change, how to govern and administer a global population now approaching 8bn who instinctively distrust and often despise remote central authorities, how to get food and water and power to those billions, how to carry away and dispose of the massive amount of waste they now produce, how to provide them with adequate health care.
We aren’t going to solve those by wallowing in half-baked conspiracy theories but if that’s all most people are capable of grasping then I’d say our future as a species looks very bleak indeed.
@bob
The East Pensylvania attorney general McSwain, said that Bill Barr instructed him not to investigate voter fraud.
Also Bill Barr orchestrated the Durham investigation, which is a still ongoing joke. That is why Bill Barr is considered to be corrupt.
I cannot verify that people didn’t sell their votes on a large scale, and then dumped them in dropboxes. It’s too difficult to verify. It is an insecure system.
At first Antrim county did an impromptu manual recount, which showed the machines shifted about 6000 votes from Trump to Biden. Then later they did another authorized manual recount, which showed 12 vote shfit, from the already corrected results from the impromptu handcount.
Then google buried the story of the initial 6000 voteshift, by manipulating the search results for it.
kf @ 84 – Try this.
Mohammadnursyamsu –
I assume, then, that republicans are unhappy with the person who decided Barr was fit to be the most senior US government attorney.
Really? That’s not what they say:
Bo’H, I did a web search, DDG, I find CONFIRMATORY information here: https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/remote-accessible-vote-mail This is surreal. KF
@bob
I guess Trump always emphasized that he was the president of all Americans, and then made judgements accordingly. I think that is why he appointed Barr, and others, and did not appoint the more radical anti-socialists.
I cannot really check your Antrim story, because I cannot find it again. The point is that the election system flipped the votes to Biden, without indicating any error had occurred, and then only a hunch that the results were incorrect was sufficient to check the results.
Which means a hunch is good enought to do a forensic audit.
And my judgement of it, given the available evidence, is that the USA election was fraudulent.
The Dominion guy Coomer saying he made certain of it that Trump would not win, I find especially convincing. Also the large ballot drops of almost 100 percent Biden votes, followed by a large series of batches with the same percentage difference.
Then there are the images of different ballots, that are photo copied duplicates. Then there is the general sense of Trump derangement syndrome, people obviously willing to cheat at elections. Socialists who cheat in every country in the world. Democrats who have a history of committing voter fraud.
Obiously the election system needs to be re-designed to be verified for accuracy, the trust factor needs to be minimized.
Sev, at last we have a serious audit and likely more to follow. Just today, there is more evidence on the table that something is terribly wrong with elections in the US. We saw a whole summer of red guard rioting and this morning on following up VB I see it continues in horrific ways in Portland. It is time to wake up and smell the smoke. KF
F/N: added to OP a screen capture showing the turnabout projection red guard tactics at work in Portland.
Sev
“The most recent Department of Homeland Security bulletin warns of a growing domestic terror threat, not from Antifa but from white supremacists.”
Of course they have and that is the point of the OP! What makes one a “white supremacist” ,can we define who is and who isn’t a white supremacist? Has Homeland Security defined the term?
Vivid
Bob,
“I don’t think it should be that surprising that Trumpsters distrust the Government and virtually every major cultural institution in the US.”
Bob “No, the way Trump & co. have been attacking the “Deep State”.
So Trump was responsible for the silent coup against himself? For the four years of lies about Russia, the demonization and outright lies about Kavanaugh, Sandman, the mobilization of the media to censor the NY post story, the Ukraine hoax and on and on in goes.? To many to list. So none of this happened and now it’s Trumps fault that I have a profound distrust of these institutions. Laughable!!
Vivid
KF
“Why isn’t this 24/7 news, as a riot and hate crime?”
Of course we know why after all according to Homeland Security White supremacist are the threat , they are not white supremacists.Just imagine if this was a white supremacist group doing this say to a LGBTQ gathering!!!
Vivid
I understand why people like Bob O’H and seversky would want an incompetent puppet like Biden as the PoTUS. He is very easy to manipulate.
Our southern border is a mess and it threatens the USA. Withdrawing from Afghanistan has opened the door for China to support the Taliban. And focusing on carbon and CO2 as the cause of climate change is short-sighted and ignorant. And now the vaccine mandates that will only hurt minorities and as such is a racist act.
seversky:
We agree. 2016-2020 saw a litany of leftwingnut hodge-podge, ramshackle, unsubstantiated election conspiracy theories. seversky and I agree on something!
Vividbleu –
What silent coup? Trump was removed from office in an election that was certainly not silent.
BO’H, there is no doubt that from 2015 on there was an unprecedented agit-prop and lawfare wave that in 2020 moved to red guard involved continent-wide rioting, all clearly pushed by a known tainted establishment aka deep state. The Steele dossier and $45 million of dubious investigation sustained for years in the teeth of quickly accessible evidence of groundlessness speaks as emblematic. There are troubling signs and there is abundant testimony that the 2020 election was tainted, now being followed up through forensic audit. The imbalance between enabling a summer of riots and over-charging and general overreaction to a single significant incident of an ill advised protest march becoming riotous at fringes speaks, once we know about the Red Guard Coup of 1966 and about the Reichstag Fire of 1933. The party line that there’s nothing to see here, move on, for cause, does not impress a sizeable proportion of the public. The two current issues highlighted yesterday speak to the situation. There is no way the California Secretary of State does not have access to know that such a voting system is extremely abuse-prone, and had the bogeymen of the day violently attacked a rally promoting various sexual agendas we would hear no end of it. The notion that we can stigmatise then declare open hunting season on people exercising basic freedoms, is heinous. The deafening silence on antifa here speaks for itself that something is seriously wrong. Indeed, your own silence in the face of such says something; duly noted. KF
PS: I also note the studious sidelining of a ME breakthrough that, had it occurred with any other US President, would likely have been globally hailed and would just as likely have led to a Nobel Peace Prize.
Both Bob O’H and seversky are proudly and willfully ignorant of what the left did for 4 years while Trump was the PoTUS. Typical but still pathetic.
F/N: A report on the Portland shameless assault on an open air worship service https://www.wnd.com/2021/08/suspected-antifa-agitators-invade-portland-prayer-event-launch-unprovoked-attack-worshippers/ Video is linked onwards. KF
PS: Another report, with interview of a witness on embedded videotape https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/witness-demonic-antifa-hurling-stun-grenades-fireworks-rotten-eggs-christian-women-children-babies-portland-park/ KF
PPS: The witness reports a sadly familiar pattern, police standing by while antifa attacks a peaceful group including women, children are attacked with pyrotechnic devices, and it is only when the Christians move elsewhere that three police cars with officers in what sounds like riot gear follow them. I don’t doubt that had Christians tried to defend themselves we would have had a Sandmann-style media slander ambush.
F/N: Another report https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/victoria-taft/2021/08/08/where-is-your-god-now-portland-cops-do-nothing-as-antifa-attacks-prayer-event-led-by-persecuted-christian-pastor-n1467987 Here, I clip:
This pattern is all too familiar.
Especially the cognitive dissonance-driven projection to the despised other that invites a diagnosis via the mirror principle.
And oh, yes if you go to the social media enabling the attackers, you will find turnabout projection of blame pretending we were attacked first at an event allegedly with the bogeyman Proud Boys.
Oh, ever so familiar . . .
KF
Bob
“What silent coup? “
The attempted silent coup to remove Trump from office. You do remember the years of lies perpetrated by the Justice Department’s FBI and the Steele Dossier?
We now know now that the FBI knew the Steele dossier was a DNC op and was a lie yet they kept using it to get FISA approval for surveillance on Trump and his associates. The FBI knowingly worked with and allowed the Democrat party to use the Steele dossier as a reason to impeach and remove him from office even though they knew the information was false. The special counsel knew early on that the dossier was BS but continued on for almost two years. The psychopath and pathological liars Schiff and Salwell repeatedly lied and said they had first hand proof of the collusion. When this fell apart the Dems moved on to another hoax and disinformation campaign over the Ukraine phone call.
Hey Bob here is a suggestion, gaslight somebody else.
Vivid
F/N: Following up on CA’s vote by printing your own ballot scheme:
https://redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2021/08/09/heres-what-we-know-about-californias-print-at-home-ballot-recall-election-scheme-n423334
Of course, when you turn the spigot to full flow on what was intended to be a carefully regulated exemption, the floodgates are open to massive injection of faked ballots which cannot be distinguished from legitimate ones and will materially affect outcomes and onward credibility of elections.
They have to know that, which is frightening.
KF
Vividbleyu @ 104 – The Steele dossier can hardly be an attempted coup to remove Trump, can it? it was collated before Trump was in office. it was also hardly silent – it was well reported. And as for being DNC funded, we knew that at the time (more or less: the story then was that it was Republican funded, but the DNC took over funding. Apparently, what happened was that the Republicans funded a pre-cursor to Steele). But just because the DNC funded it doesn’t mean it’s false. Which is why the FBI should have investigated the allegations.
BO’H, what was done with it and with the climate it helped create certainly was an agit prop and lawfare push. KF
PS: The allegations were discredited and dubious from the outset, but a circus was sustained for two years at taxpayer expense. Contrast say the clear violation of the espionage law by Mrs Clinton hosting a server outside the proper Govt parameters etc.
PPS: The current developments also speak for themselves, as noted above.
F/N: a food for thought critique of journalism tactics. How did this pass muster with a responsible editorial board? KF
Bob,
“A soft coup, sometimes referred to as a silent coup, is a coup d’état without the use of violence, but based on a conspiracy or plot that has as its objective the taking of state power by partially or wholly legal means, in order to facilitate an exchange of political leadership and in some cases also of the current institutional order.[1][2]” WIKI
“The Steele dossier can hardly be an attempted coup to remove Trump, can it? “
What a silly question . Here is what I wrote
“The FBI knowingly worked with and allowed the Democrat party to use the Steele dossier as a reason to impeach and remove him from office even though they knew the information was false.”
“it was collated before Trump was in office”
Irrelevant.
.” it was also hardly silent –“
You mean it produced no sound waves? You got me there Bob.
“it was well reported. “
Well yeh! How could it be used if no one heard about it? Sheesh
“And as for being DNC funded, we knew that at the time (more or less: the story then was that it was Republican funded, but the DNC took over funding. “
Why are you stating the obvious as if your presenting some kind of rebuttal?
“But just because the DNC funded it doesn’t mean it’s false. “
Another silly irrelevant comment ,of course that did not make it false
“Which is why the FBI should have investigated the allegations.”
And they did and in their investigation they found out it was unverifiable and false yet proceeded as if it was true. They used the dossier that they knew was unverifiable to get FISA warrants. They gave cover to the corrupt media and pathological liars like Schiff and Salwell .
Vivid
F/N: Update 4 to OP, showing abuse of mail voting in Ukraine in 2004 per archive of US Govt, and the McFaul Colour Revolution playbook vs the SOCOM insurgency escalator, in context of 4th Gen war. KF
F/N: A further report on the incident in Portland, highlighting a similar outdoor worship event held the next day https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2021/08/10/watch-christians-gather-worship-portland-despite-antifa-attack-we-didnt-back-down/ KF