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Atheism’s problem of warrant (–> being, Logic and First Principles, No. 23)

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Atheism seems to be on the table these days here at UD and a few points need clarification.

First up, what is Atheism?

The usual dictionaries are consistent:

atheism
n. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dh?s- in Indo-European roots.]

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

atheism
n (Philosophy) rejection of belief in God or gods
[C16: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from a-1 + theos god]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014

a•the•ism
n. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
[1580–90]
Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

atheism
the absolute denial of the existence of God or any other gods.
-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

However, from at least the 1880’s, there has been a claim by some advocates of the same, that what is meant is someone without faith in God.

(This tends to serve the rhetorical purpose of claiming that nothing is asserted and it can be taken as default, demanding that theists provide “compelling” warrant for faith in God. Where, often, this then leads to selectively hyperskeptical dismissals, sometimes to the degree of claiming that “there is no evidence” that supports the existence of God. [Of course, the no evidence gambit should usually be taken as implying ” there is no evidence [that I am willing to acknowledge].” Through that loophole, as fair comment, a lot of clearly question-beggingly closed minded hyperskepticism can be driven.)

There are many varieties of atheists, including idealistic ones that reject the reality of matter. However at this juncture in our civilisation, the relevant form is evolutionary materialistic, often associated with the scientism that holds that big-S Science effectively monopolises credible knowledge. (Never mind that such a view is an epistemological [thus philosophical and self-refuting] view. Evolutionary materialism is also self-refuting by way of undermining the credibility of mind.)

A key take-home point is that atheism is not an isolated view or belief, it is part of a wider worldview, where every worldview needs to be responsible before the bar of comparative difficulties: factual adequacy, coherence, balanced explanatory power. Likewise, given the tendency of modern atheism to dress up in a lab coat, we must also reckon with fellow travellers who do not explicitly avow atheism but clearly enable it.

So, already, we can see that atheism is best understood as disbelief — NB, Dicts: “refusal or reluctance to believe”/ “the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true” — in the existence of God, claimed or implied to be a well warranted view; not merely having doubts about God’s existence or thinking one does not know enough to hold a strong opinion. It inevitably exists as a part of a broader philosophical scheme, a worldview, and will imply therefore a cultural agenda.

(I add: Note by contrast, AmHD on agnosticism: “The belief that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities cannot be known with certainty. “ Where, of course, certainty comes in various degrees, starting with moral certainty, and where knowledge, as commonly used often speaks to credibly warranted beliefs taken as true but not typically held as utterly certain beyond any possibility of error or incompleteness. We not only know that 2 + 3 = 5, but we claim knowledge of less than utterly certain facts and theories. For instance, in the mid 2000’s, the previous understanding and “fact” that Pluto was the 9th Planet of our solar system was revised through redefining Pluto as a dwarf planet.)

It will be further helpful (given objections that suggest inapt, distorted caricature) to excerpt from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, as appears at comment 11:

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not direct answers to this question.

While identifying atheism with the metaphysical claim that there is no God (or that there are no gods) is particularly useful for doing philosophy, it is important to recognize that the term “atheism” is polysemous—i.e., it has more than one related meaning—even within philosophy. For example, many writers at least implicitly identify atheism with a positive metaphysical theory like naturalism or even materialism. Given this sense of the word, the meaning of “atheism” is not straightforwardly derived from the meaning of “theism”. . . . .

[A] few philosophers and quite a few non-philosophers claim that “atheism” shouldn’t be defined as a proposition at all, even if theism is a proposition. Instead, “atheism” should be defined as a psychological state: the state of not believing in the existence of God (or gods). This view was famously proposed by the philosopher Antony Flew and arguably played a role in his (1972) defense of an alleged presumption of “atheism”. The editors of the Oxford Handbook of Atheism (Bullivant & Ruse 2013) also favor this definition and one of them, Stephen Bullivant (2013), defends it on grounds of scholarly utility. His argument is that this definition can best serve as an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions that have been identified with atheism. Scholars can then use adjectives like “strong” and “weak” to develop a taxonomy that differentiates various specific atheisms. Unfortunately, this argument overlooks the fact that, if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state. This undermines his argument in defense of Flew’s definition; for it implies that what he calls “strong atheism”—the proposition (or belief in the sense of “something believed”) that there is no God—is not really a variety of atheism at all. In short, his proposed “umbrella” term leaves strong atheism out in the rain. [–> which makes little sense]

Although Flew’s definition of “atheism” [thus] fails as an umbrella term, it is certainly a legitimate definition in the sense that it reports how a significant number of people use the term. Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. The issue for philosophy is which definition is the most useful for scholarly or, more narrowly, philosophical purposes.

We can go further.

For, we all have intellectual duties of care in general and as regards worldviews and linked cultural agendas. There are particular, inescapable associated duties to truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc. To see why such are inescapable, consider the consequences of a widespread rejection of such duties: ruinous chaos that would undermine rationality itself. Reason is morally governed.

Also, given that post Godel, not even sufficiently complex mathematical systems are subject to proof beyond doubt, that one cannot provide absolute demonstration is not at all the same as that one does not have adequate warrant to hold responsible certainty about key points of knowledge. In this context, the issue is reasonable, responsible faith in a credible worldview. Where, the claim one has “absence of belief in” God is often patently evasive. Why such a strange lack?

Could it be that one knows enough to realise that trying to disprove the reality of God is an almost impossible task, once there is no demonstrable incoherence in the theistic concept of God? (Where, we note, that the old attempt to use the problem of evil to lead to such a contradiction has failed; a failure that is particularly evident, post-Plantinga.)

Now, such is significant, especially given point 7 from the recently cited six-country study on atheists:

7. Also perhaps challenging common suppositions: with
only a few exceptions, atheists and agnostics endorse
the realities of objective moral values, human dignity and
attendant rights, and the ‘deep value’ of nature, at similar
rates to the general populations in their countries. (3.1)

A key to this, is the already mentioned point that our mental lives are inescapably under moral government, through undeniably known duties to “truth, right reason, prudence (including warrant), sound conscience, fairness, justice, etc.” The attempt to deny such rapidly undercuts rational discussion and the credibility of thought and communication, much as is implicit in what would happen were lying to be the norm. So, one who rejects the objectivity of such duties discredits himself.

However, it is also possible to hold an inconsistency; accepting objective morality but placing it in a framework that undermines it.

A start-point is to see that our rationality is morally governed through said duties. This means, our life of reason operates on both sides of the IS-OUGHT gap, requiring that it be bridged. That can only be done in the root of reality, on pain of ungrounded ought. And no, indoctrination, socialisation and even conscience do not ground ought. We need that the root of reality is inherently and essentially good and wise, a serious bill to fill.

You may dispute this (so, as a phil exercise, provide an alternative _____ and justify it _____ ), but it is easy to show that after many centuries of debates there is just one serious candidate: the inherently good, utterly wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being. One, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. This is the heart of ethical theism.

There is another angle. How much of reality do we know, how much of what is knowable do we actually hold, and how much of that is certain beyond future correction? The ratio is obviously trending infinitesimal; even dismissing Boltzmann brain scenarios, Matrix worlds and Plato’s cave worlds etc.

So, what if what is required to know God is, is beyond what one happens to know, or what one is willing to acknowledge?

In short, the positive affirmation that there is no God is arguably an act of intellectual irresponsibility, given our inability to show that being God is incoherent and our effectively infinitesimal grasp of what is knowable.

Let me add a table, as a reminder on logic of being:

Indeed, as it is easy to see that reality has a necessary being root (something of independent existence that therefore has neither beginning nor end), given that traversal of the transfinite in finite temporal-causal steps is a supertask and given that were there ever utter non-being, as such has no causal powers that would forever obtain, if a world now is, something thus always was. Thus, too, the question is: what that necessary being is, and that is further shaped by our being under moral government starting with our rationality.

Where also, a serious candidate to be a necessary being either is, or is impossible of being as a square circle is impossible of being. Where, a necessary being is a world-framework entity: a component of what is necessary for there to be any world. God as historically understood through theism is clearly such a serious candidate (if you doubt, kindly justify: ____ ), and so the one who poses as knowing that God is not implies having warrant to hold God impossible of being. Where, given the centrality of root of reality, ducking the question is clearly irresponsible.

In short, asserting or implying atheism requires a serious — and unmet — burden of warrant. END

Comments
Seversky
Anyone who states a definite claim, whether it is that God exists or it is that God does not exist, is obliged to provide argument and evidence to support that claim if and only if their purpose is to persuade an audience of the merits of that claim.
Shouldn't the person have the intellectual integrity to have argument and evidence so that he persuaded himself?Silver Asiatic
July 3, 2019
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Sev, First, with all due respect, Lord Russell makes a telling error of misconcept regarding logic of being; one that BTW seems quite common. One, that reflects just how unphilosophical our age is. Hera, Zeus et al simply are not in the same ontological status as the God who is the root of reality, a necessary, maximally great being. They are clearly contingent, second order candidate beings. And in fact he is wrong regarding how he addresses their existence or possible existence: there is no reason why superhuman, capricious and too often outright evil entities might not exist, standing behind the myths, statues and temples. (We would call such by another name today, demons -- as the early Christians did. The myths, statues and buildings in themselves are of little import, but that behind such, very real and in the end destructive entities might stand, should not be dismissed without thought. We should at least be open to that in our day, given, say, a Hitler . . . as the White Rose martyrs warned at cost of their lives. But that is utterly different from there being a finitely remote necessary being root of reality adequate to ground a world inhabited by free, rational [not merely computational] morally governed, choosing creatures such as we are..) Coming back, Russell clearly recognises that our epistemic status -- relatively, negligible knowledge -- is such that it is extraordinarily difficult for us to credibly claim knowledge that a serious candidate necessary, maximally great being at the root of reality is impossible of being. Hera, is not even a candidate to be that; such categories should not be conflated. Where, no, warrant does not equal burden of proof -- a legal term. In law (and debates) there is often a default set out of prudence by way of which of competing possible errors is least harmful. So, at criminal law in common law jurisdictions the accused is presumed innocent unless shown otherwise to moral certainty by the comparatively vast resources of the state. On civil matters, where consequences of error are less destructive, weaker standards apply, e.g. preponderance of the evidence. And yes, mild forms of the prudential counsel Pascal gave, are embedded in legal thought and in any form of prudent decision-making. That's a reason why when I see over-wrought dismissals of Pascal Wager type reasoning in a worldview roots context, I conclude: these protest too much, too sharply, I wonder why? (As in, are we seeing the difference between reasoning with prudence on one hand and on the other in the end defensive, challenge deflective rationalisation of views held on other grounds than worldview level inference to the best, most prudent explanation? Cicero aptly said, prudence is a law, conscience is a law.) Instead, I submit: every serious worldview alternative has a burden of warrant on comparative difficulties, the duty to show itself credible per factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. And so, to play at rhetorical tactics (as he admits) rather than using one's prestige to soberly inform and educate the public seriously about such matters, is in the end sadly illuminating. Huxley, pioneer of the modern concept and coinage, agnosticism, took a different tack on this subject. So did the ex-atheist, C S Lewis. And, now we know why the public debate with Fr Copleston took the strange shape it did. It is clearly emerging that some form of agnosticism is far more defensible than the classic atheistical stance. Where, the SEP point that psychologising the definition of atheism instead fails to capture the semantic range is also relevant (cf OP as augmented i/l/o 11 above). In short, it stands established that atheism faces a serious problem of warrant, and that it cannot properly claim the default as a worldview stance on the root of reality; that would beg big questions. We must look more broadly at the worldview that has an atheistical commitment and address comparative difficulties. Coming back to the worldviews challenge, we therefore face what was outlined, say, in 91:
the issue is, why does reality exist — the domain in which there are possible and even actual worlds (complete with necessary beings [ --> try, the panoply of quantities from 0, 1, 2 on through Z,Q,R,C, hyperreals and surreals, and linked structures]). Something does not come from non-being [--> which has no causal capacity], circular causation of successive finite stages is a non-starter, transfinite traverse [--> so, the suggested beginningless quasi-physical past] is a supertask. We are looking at a finitely remote world root, and a world with rational (not merely computational) morally governed creatures — us. That points to a world root adequate to sustain both IS and OUGHT, calling for inherent goodness. A creator-sustainer who is inherently good. And BTW, no such root, no reality, so no basis for laws pivoting on distinct identity, no responsible, rationally free inference capable mind thus no modus ponens etc.
Going back further, to 82:
On the roots of reality: >>There are three options for an explanation of origin: 1. It came from nothing>> a: No-thing means, non-being, which has no causal capacity. b: Were there ever utter nothing, that would forever obtain. But such is patently not the case. c: A world is, so something always was, pointing to the root of reality, where neither infinite regress nor circular cause make sense. >>2. It exists eternally without beginning>> d: The temporal-causal succession of finite duration stages cannot span the transfinite in steps, whether that transfiniteness is explicit or implicit. e: We look to an entity of a different nature, the most promising being a necessary (world framework, independently existing) being as world root. [--> Necessary beings are independent of external, enabling causal factors, are part of the framework for any world to exist . . . BTW, the root for the extraordinary power of the logic of structure and quantity, i.e. Mathematics, and are thus integral to the roots of reality.] >>3. It came from an uncaused, absolute, non-contingent, self-existing Being we call God>> f: As in, this. >>Many people are content to say merely that they do not know.>> g: We were confident to boldly follow logic before, why the hesitation now? >>Others will say “anything but God”.>> h: So, why that anything but? ________
That's where we need to begin, perhaps with a glance up at the table in the OP on alternatives regarding being. KF PS: Having found what looks like an augmented transcript, let's clip:
C: Take the proposition "if there is a contingent being then there is a Necessary Being." I consider that that proposition hypothetically expressed is a necessary proposition. If you are going to call every necessary proposition an analytic proposition, then -- in order to avoid a dispute in terminology -- I would agree to call it analytic, though I don't consider it a tautological proposition [--> I assume, in the sense, trivial repetition in other words]. But the proposition is a necessary proposition only on the supposition that there is a contingent being. That there is a contingent being actually existing has to be discovered by experience, and the proposition that there is a contingent being is certainly not an analytic proposition, though once you know, I should maintain, that there is a contingent being, it follows of necessity that there is a Necessary Being. [--> contingent beings are not self-explanatory and causal-temporal chains run into issues as seen above] R: The difficulty of this argument is that I don't admit the idea of a Necessary Being and I don't admit that there is any particular meaning in calling other beings "contingent." These phrases don't for me have a significance except within a logic that I reject.
[--> extraordinary! Try to imagine a world in which two-ness did not exist until a switch was flipped then, poof there it is, now, flip back again and poof, it ends. Sorry, that already has twoness: ON/OFF. That's a big clue. Where, for any distinct world W, we have some attribute A so that it is identifiable as not its near neighbour W'. So W = {A|~A}, thus on distinct identity of any possible world, we have nullity [the dichotomy is empty], unity [A-simple, ~A complex], duality [the two together]. From such we proceed to N, Z, Q, R, C and beyond as necessary entities and structures in ANY possible world. Lord Russell's scheme of logic and adherence to verification principle led ideas leads astray. Later, it was found that this principle cannot pass its own test of meaningfulness and the related movement is dead.]
[ C: Do you mean that you reject these terms because they won't fit in with what is called "modern logic"? R: Well, I can't find anything that they could mean. The word "necessary," it seems to me, is a useless word, except as applied to analytic propositions, not to things. C: In the first place, what do you mean by "modern logic?" As far as I know, there are somewhat differing systems. In the second place, not all modern logicians surely would admit the meaninglessness of metaphysics. We both know, at any rate, one very eminent modern thinker whose knowledge of modern logic was profound, but who certainly did not think that metaphysics are meaningless or, in particular, that the problem of God is meaningless. Again, even if all modern logicians held that metaphysical terms are meaningless, it would not follow that they were right. The proposition that metaphysical terms are meaningless seems to me to be a proposition based on an assumed philosophy. [--> Fr Copleston turned out to be right on target.] The dogmatic position behind it seems to be this: What will not go into my machine is non-existent, or it is meaningless; it is the expression of emotion. I am simply trying to point out that anybody who says that a particular system of modern logic is the sole criterion of meaning is saying something that is over-dogmatic; he is dogmatically insisting that a part of philosophy is the whole of philosophy. After all, ] ...a "contingent" being is a being which has not in itself the complete reason for its existence. That's what I mean by a contingent being. You know, as well as I do, that the existence of neither of us can be explained without reference to something or somebody outside us, our parents, for example. A "Necessary" Being, on the other hand means a being that must and cannot not exist.
[--> I of course draw out more, it is not just an arbitrary, hypothetical contrast to contingent beings dependent on external enabling causal factors. There are entities that are part of the framework for a world to exist.]
You may say that there is no such Being, but you will find it hard to convince me that you do not understand the terms I am using. If you do not understand them, then how can you be entitled to say that such a Being does not exist, if that is what you do say? [ R: Well, there are points here that I don't propose to go into at length. I don't maintain the meaninglessness of metaphysics in general at all. I maintain the meaninglessness of certain particular terms -- not on any general ground, but simply because I've not been able to see an interpretation of those particular terms. It's not a general dogma -- it's a particular thing. But those points I will leave out for the moment. ] Well, I will say that what you have been saying brings us back, it seems to me, to the Ontological Argument that there is a being whose essence involves existence, so that his existence is analytic. That seems to me to be impossible, and it raises, of course, the question what one means by existence, and as to this, I think a subject named can never be significantly said to exist but only a subject described. And that existence, in fact, quite definitely is not a predicate. C: Well, you say, I believe, that it is bad grammar, or rather bad syntax to say for example "T. S. Eliot exists"; one ought to say, for example, "[He,] the author of Murder in the Cathedral, exists." Are you going to say that the proposition, "The cause of the world exists," is without meaning? You may say that the world has no cause; but I fail to see how you can say that the proposition that "the cause of the world exists" is meaningless. Put it in the form of a question: "Has the world a cause?" or "Does a cause of the world exist?" Most people surely would understand the question, even if they don't agree about the answer. R: Well, certainly the question "Does the cause of the world exist?" is a question that has meaning. But if you say "Yes, God is the cause of the world" you're using God as a proper name; then "God exists" will not be a statement that has meaning; that is the position that I am maintaining. [--> extraordinary!] Because, therefore, it will follow that it cannot be an analytic proposition ever to say that this or that exists. Take for example, suppose you take as your subject "the existent round-square," it would look like an analytic proposition that "the existent round-square exists," but it doesn't exist. C: No, it doesn't, then surely you can't say it doesn't exist unless you have a conception of what existence is. As to the phrase "existent round-square," I should say that it has no meaning at all. [--> As required core characteristics are mutually contradictory, such is impossible of being.] R: I quite agree. Then I should say the same thing in another context in reference to a "Necessary Being." C: Well, we seem to have arrived at an impasse. To say that a Necessary Being is a being that must exist and cannot not exist has for me a definite meaning. For you it has no meaning. R: Well, we can press the point a little, I think. A Being that must exist and cannot not exist, would surely, according to you, be a Being whose essence involves existence. [--> See above on numbers and related structures] C: Yes, a being the essence of which is to exist. But I should not be willing to argue the existence of God simply from the idea of His essence because I don't think we have any clear intuition of God's essence as yet. I think we have to argue from the world of experience to God. [--> I would expect, from our inner conscious, minded and morally governed life as well as the external world we share]
kairosfocus
July 3, 2019
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I think most atheists and/or agnostics would align themselves broadly with Bertrand Russell in his essay "Am I an Atheist or an Agnostic?:
Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion. I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God. On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods. None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof. Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.
The question of warrant is really a variant of the burden of proof and atheism has no special duty in that respect. Anyone who states a definite claim, whether it is that God exists or it is that God does not exist, is obliged to provide argument and evidence to support that claim if and only if their purpose is to persuade an audience of the merits of that claim. If the claimant presents argument and evidence but the audience finds them unpersuasive then, unless the claimant has other arguments and evidence to bring forward, an impasse is reached. If the claimants best arguments and evidence are not sufficient to compel the audience to agree then they must agree to disagree for the time being at least.Seversky
July 2, 2019
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Dave
The issue (my original question anyway, relating to SA’s #81) was actually why modus ponens (and logic in general) exists. Do you agree it exists in every possible world?
It exists in every possible world, yes. So, you are saying that it therefore is self-existent and does not require God to explain it. But that is like saying "the existence of things is required in every possible world". Yes, true. But we would not say then, "therefore, since the existence of things exists in every possible world, they do not require God as an explanation for their origin". But no, they have to come from somewhere. They are dependent upon something. The same with logic.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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DaveS
I believe you would say that modus ponens exists in every possible world and is thus a necessary being, so its existence is not contingent on any other being’s existence.
Modus ponens is a reference to Being. Additionally, it is dependent upon Distinct Beings. There must be two Beings for modus ponens to exist. Thus, modus Ponens is a contingent being. It is not independent or self-existing. Modus ponens follows from first principles, which also require that there is such a thing as Distinct Beings. Modus ponens depends on Being and can have no other source except for God. Could there be a world where there were no distinct beings? Well, there could be minds that viewed everything as One. All distinction between one chair and another chair is not real. Perhaps there would be minds that could not see, feel, weigh or position the two different unique chairs. Do they exist? Those minds would never know it. It is like saying "that is one cloud" and "that is another cloud". but the clouds are touching a little. Are they really two clouds? Or are they all a part of one huge cloud pattern? Rationally, we make distinctions because we can observe them with our senses. That is how we know what Reality is. But the Law of Identity exists even in a world where there is only one being (one huge cloud) because that being is distinct from everything that is not it. The Law of Identity, however, is not an independent being. It is dependent, and contingent. It is a reference to Being. if it was possible that there was Absolute Nothing. There would be no Law of Identity. As long as something exists, however, the Law of Identity exists. Existing things do not create the LOI. But the LOI is embedded into the fabric of existence.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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So is that "yes" or "no"? (Hint: apply the LEM :P )daveS
July 2, 2019
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DS, MP is a consequent of particular relations that pivot on distinct identity, holding its place due to that underpinning. LOI obtains as possible worlds exist that are distinct in reality. That's why the root issue is why reality. And in that context, I can freely point out that necessary first principles, structures and quantities are bound up in the characteristics of that root. Reality is structural, with logic and quantity manifesting through the import of distinct identity. So, the root issue is, the necessary being world root, which brings the panoply of logic, structure, quantity. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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The issue (my original question anyway, relating to SA's #81) was actually why modus ponens (and logic in general) exists. Do you agree it exists in every possible world?daveS
July 2, 2019
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DS, the issue is, why does reality exist -- the domain in which there are possible and even actual worlds (complete with necessary beings). Something does not come from non-being, circular causation of successive finite stages is a non-starter, transfinite traverse is a supertask. We are looking at a finitely remote world root, and a world with rational (not merely computational) morally governed creatures -- us. That points to a world root adequate to sustain both IS and OUGHT, calling for inherent goodness. A creator-sustainer who is inherently good. And BTW, no such root, no reality, so no basis for laws pivoting on distinct identity, no responsible, rationally free inference capable mind thus no modus ponens etc. Recall, in reasoning Q follows from P on being seen to be its consequent. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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KF,
that everything requires explanation is likely poorly phrased, but it is reasonable that of any distinct, particular thing that is, A (or any particular distinct truth claim, T, that is accepted), we can indeed ask why A or T and seek an adequate explanation.
Sure. I mean we can ask a lot of things, pretty much anything we like. We can also seek explanations for virtually anything as well.
PS: For P => Q, if they are distinct, that is part of a discussion of how the one is adequate warrant for the other: ~ (P and [~Q]) . . . why (which raises meaning, requiring distinct identity and its close corollaries), but it is always so that trivially P => P.
Do we have an explanation here for why modus ponens exists? Is God required for it to exist? I believe you would say that modus ponens exists in every possible world and is thus a necessary being, so its existence is not contingent on any other being's existence. Furthermore, it never began to exist. Therefore it would not be profitable to argue for SA's third option.daveS
July 2, 2019
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Dave,
Hm, I don’t quite follow that. Perhaps KF (or you of course) can expand on it.
With the Law of Identity, everything that exists as a distinct thing, has a unique identity. Once that principle is realized, we are capable of comparing and grouping things and assigning qualities to them. The modus ponens is an output of the rational process of comparison, equivalency, excluded middle and non-contradiction. That is the origin of modus ponens. That is the explanation of where it comes from. 1. LOI - P is distinct from Q. 2. Rational process of comparison/contrast: if P then Q. 3. Non-Contradiction -- if P is Q, then P cannot be non-Q. 4. Excluded middle. Given P, it must either be Q or non-Q. There is no 3rd choice. 5. Modus ponens conclusion: Given P, then Q.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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Dave
I’m guessing that KF will object that this leads to a vicious infinite regress. I think I would as well.
I think he does not object to it?
KF... that everything requires explanation ... is reasonable …[so] … we seek an adequate explanation.
Does God require an explanation? If so, call it E. Now does E require an explanation? If so, call it E1. Etc.
I don't see the problem there. God is given an explanation. From there, explanations are existent things, all of which are explained as a category of being (explanatory thoughts). All explanations are explained by what they are. They come from thought. They have an origin. It doesn't matter how many you have. An animal has an explanation. Explaining the explanations of the animal does not multiply the existence of the animal. It just multiplies thought. But all of the thoughts, (question and response) even to an infinite progression in the future, have the same origin. They are already explained by what they are: Explanations.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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DS, that everything requires explanation is likely poorly phrased, but it is reasonable that of any distinct, particular thing that is, A (or any particular distinct truth claim, T, that is accepted), we can indeed ask why A or T and seek an adequate explanation. It may be that B warrants A or T (including, implying it). We may proceed, coming to some F that exists as a necessary entity at root of reality or at some truth G that is properly self evident. We have now reached a terminus that is a satisfactory explanation without being infinitely regressive. Of course, by happenstance A or T may already be of this character, such as that error exists. I should add, that in general, a cluster F = {f1, f2, . . . fn} can define a world frame that though not even largely self evident, on comparative difficulties frames a tenable worldview which supports accepting A or T. As for a causal temporal, finite stage regress that is explicitly or implicitly transfinite, the spanning is a supertask that cannot be bridged by us. KF PS: For P => Q, if they are distinct, that is part of a discussion of how the one is adequate warrant for the other: ~ (P and [~Q]) . . . why (which raises meaning, requiring distinct identity and its close corollaries), but it is always so that trivially P => P.kairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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SA,
Yes, everything requires an explanation.
I'm guessing that KF will object that this leads to a vicious infinite regress. I think I would as well. Does God require an explanation? If so, call it E. Now does E require an explanation? If so, call it E1. Etc.
From the Law of Identity we can say If P then Q. Because P is uniquely different from Q. So, the modus ponens has an explanation for its existence.
Hm, I don't quite follow that. Perhaps KF (or you of course) can expand on it.daveS
July 2, 2019
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Dave
Edit: If I had to choose one of your options, I would go with #2, although I’m not sure I agree completely with it.
Yes, I recall us debating that point last year. You were looking for ways to say that we could "arrive at a present point" at the end of an infinite sequence that had no beginning. But I never understood your point on that. You were saying that it was infinite in the past, but could progress into the future past today. I think the ordinary, classical approach to that problem is that if a sequence never had a beginning, then over an infinite stretch of time it would never reach a finite point in the future. Then there is the problem of possibility or potentiality, where anything that could happen, anything that was possible to happen, over an infinite period of time - would have already happened. There are a lot of paradoxical issues with an infinite regress.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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DaveS
Does modus ponens (as an example) require an explanation for its existence?
Yes, everything requires an explanation. The modus ponens form exists. Where did it come from? Did someone invent it? Or did we just discover it, and it has a pre-existence to humans? Is it embedded into the fabric of reality? Well, modus ponens comes from the laws of logic. From the Law of Identity we can say If P then Q. Because P is uniquely different from Q. So, the modus ponens has an explanation for its existence. It comes from the first principles, which are essential to the nature of the world. The human mind is ordered to that nature. We know the human mind could not fabricate the first principles, and thus, humans discovered modus ponens they did not invent it.Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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SA, Does modus ponens (as an example) require an explanation for its existence? Edit: If I had to choose one of your options, I would go with #2, although I'm not sure I agree completely with it.daveS
July 2, 2019
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SA, Logic and linked first principles, we should not take for granted. In my own 101, I started from worldviews and the turtles all the way down challenge. That's a serious problem. On the roots of reality: >>There are three options for an explanation of origin: 1. It came from nothing>> a: No-thing means, non-being, which has no causal capacity. b: Were there ever utter nothing, that would forever obtain. But such is patently not the case. c: A world is, so something always was, pointing to the root of reality, where neither infinite regress nor circular cause make sense. >>2. It exists eternally without beginning>> d: The temporal-causal succession of finite duration stages cannot span the transfinite in steps, whether that transfiniteness is explicit or implicit. e: We look to an entity of a different nature, the most promising being a necessary (world framework, independently existing) being as world root. >>3. It came from an uncaused, absolute, non-contingent, self-existing Being we call God>> f: As in, this. >>Many people are content to say merely that they do not know.>> g: We were confident to boldly follow logic before, why the hesitation now? >>Others will say “anything but God”.>> h: So, why that anything but? ________ KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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KF
we need to work our way through logic and first principles
Right, and as you have pointed out elsewhere, we look for an origin of these principles of rationality. We cannot merely start with or accept without concern, the existence of logic and first principles. There are three options for an explanation of origin: 1. It came from nothing 2. It exists eternally without beginning 3. It came from an uncaused, absolute, non-contingent, self-existing Being we call God Many people are content to say merely that they do not know. Others will say "anything but God".Silver Asiatic
July 2, 2019
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F/N: On defining God in terms of ethical theism, I of course mean the inherently good, utterly wise maximally great necessary being who as creator is the root of reality and who is worthy of loyalty and the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good that accords with our evident (morally governed) nature. I find VJT's philosophically rooted summary also helpful:
[A Philosophical Definition of God:] By God I mean Someone, not some thing, or some state or some process. More specifically, I mean Someone (beyond space and time) Whose nature it is to know and love in a perfect and unlimited way, Whose mode of acting is simply to know, love and choose (without anything more basic underlying these acts), Who is the Creator and Conserver of the natural world, and Who is therefore capable of making anything He wishes to, provided that it’s consistent with His nature as a perfectly intelligent and loving being, and with His other choices . . . . Since God is self-explanatory, as the Ultimate Cause, He cannot possess any ad hoc features, like being a trickster. Nor can God be totally evil, since evil is a privation [--> i.e. evil has no independent existence, it is the frustration, diversion, perversion or privation of the good out of its proper end, function, role or potential], and God is an infinite and unbounded Being. Hence we are forced to suppose that God is good. As to whether God is loving in a personal sense: each and every person is an end-in-itself, and for God to treat a person in an impersonal fashion would reflect a deficiency on His part; and since we know God is free from deficiencies, it follows that He must be personal.
We can also explore God through scripture and theology (see 101 here) but that is not going to affect the force of the above. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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F/N: I/l/o discussion above, I have put in some highlights -- I find that reading in our day has so deteriorated that such crude aids (which some have mocked, apparently not recognising that if your leg is broken, a crutch is relevant) are helpful for many -- and I have put in some remarks on agnosticism; which I had earlier left out as likely to be distractive but it now seems necessary despite that potential. I have also added further dictionary definitions. The following picks up from the point where the standard definition was given and the so-called weak form was given. After brief fair comment, it is time to round up:
So, already, we can see that atheism is best understood as disbelief — NB, Dicts: “refusal or reluctance to believe”/ “the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true” — in the existence of God, claimed or implied to be a well warranted view; not merely having doubts about God’s existence or thinking one does not know enough to hold a strong opinion. It inevitably exists as a part of a broader philosophical scheme, a worldview, and will imply therefore a cultural agenda. (I add: Note by contrast, AmHD on agnosticism: “The belief that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities cannot be known with certainty. “ Where, of course, certainty comes in various degrees, starting with moral certainty, and where knowledge, as commonly used often speaks to credibly warranted beliefs taken as true but not typically held as utterly certain beyond any possibility of error or incompleteness. We not only know that 2 + 3 = 5, but we claim knowledge of less than utterly certain facts and theories. For instance, in the mid 2000’s, the previous understanding and “fact” that Pluto was the 9th Planet of our solar system was revised through redefining Pluto as a dwarf planet.)
I trust these will help. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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PPS: Let us note Cicero in De Legibus, too:
—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC]: . . . the subject of our present discussion . . . comprehends the universal principles of equity and law. In such a discussion therefore on the great moral law of nature, the practice of the civil law can occupy but an insignificant and subordinate station. For according to our idea, we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man. We shall have to examine those principles of legislation by which all political states should be governed. And last of all, shall we have to speak of those laws and customs which are framed for the use and convenience of particular peoples, which regulate the civic and municipal affairs of the citizens, and which are known by the title of civil laws. Quintus [his real-life brother]. —You take a noble view of the subject, my brother, and go to the fountain–head of moral truth, in order to throw light on the whole science of jurisprudence: while those who confine their legal studies to the civil law too often grow less familiar with the arts of justice than with those of litigation. Marcus. —Your observation, my Quintus, is not quite correct. It is not so much the science of law that produces litigation, as the ignorance of it, (potius ignoratio juris litigiosa est quam scientia) . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions. They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [--> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.
kairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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PS: We should be ashamed of ourselves as a civilisation, given the Ship of State:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State[ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
kairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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LC, Welcome, you seem to be new in these parts. (Or are you an infrequent commenter or someone who has just decided to move beyond lurking?) You raise a raft of concerns, but I find your clip from Richard Mitchell -- who on a quick search seems to have led a bit of a crusade against the ill-informed and/or willful corruption of language, reasoning and soundness -- as perhaps the most striking:
Words never fail. We hear them, we read them; they enter into the mind and become part of us for as long as we shall live. Who speaks reason to his fellow men bestows it upon them. Who mouths inanity disorders thought for all who listen. There must be some minimum allowable dose of inanity beyond which the mind cannot remain reasonable. Irrationality, like buried chemical waste, sooner or later must seep into all the tissues of thought.” [“Less Than Words Can Say”]
Yes, yes, yes! Now, you took up my point on the moral government of rationality, pointing out how our understanding of morality has been corrupted through subjectivism and relativism etc. This echoes a concern that Plato long since stated in The Laws Bk X (which targets evolutionary materialism and linked sophism), but first let me note the inescapable first duties of mind that I have highlighted: duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence (thus, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, to fairness and justice, etc. These of course can be subverted, starting with warping our understanding of truth and undermining our respect for its incalculable worth. And yet, it still stands as Aristotle recognised it 2300+ years ago in Metaphysics, 1011b: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. Similarly, distinct identity is a self-evident, undeniable first principle of thought, communication and reality alike, carrying with it as close corollaries the laws of the excluded middle and non-contradiction. Closely associated are other self-evident first truths and tools of rationality (see my 101 level exploration here on in context). Cicero, in highlighting the built-in law of our nature as the core of law, rightly pointed to prudence (so, warrant) and [sound] conscience. The neighbour love principle is pivotal to articulating morality and sound law that undergirds the civil peace of justice, which involves a deep commitment to fairness. In this context, core rights are clear, and we can understand justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. That's why it leads to a sound civil peace . . . a peace that is now being willfully, wantonly broken by characters all across our civilisation who seem to have stepped right out of the character-sketches in Plato's devastating parable of the ship of state. (And before one hastens to fasten such on one's favourite designated target for the daily two minute hate, one should take pause to ponder the point of Orwell's 1984. Beyond a certain point, satire fails as reality has now exceeded it.) Such laws were not passed by any Bench or Parliament or Executive ruling by decree or media-manipulated referendum. They cannot be struck down by such figures -- never mind today's arrogant pretensions. We can only recognise them as first principles and build soundly on them, or else face the consequences of voyages of folly due to failure to heed such laws of our morally governed nature, starting with rationality. The folly and blindness of our day are patent. In this light, let us reconsider the rise of evolutionary materialistic scientism and associated atheism and fellow travellers i/l/o Plato's grim warning driven by the bloody lessons of the failure of Athenian democracy -- and notice, how we have been systematically robbed of history and its sobering lessons too:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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SA, quite so. All worldviews bristle with difficulties and we have to face how bounded we are in our knowledge and reasoning, how error-prone, how we struggle to be honest and truthful, how often we are polarised, unduly biased and outright ill-willed. Indeed, in decision theory, bounded rationality is a key concept and one of the most troubling ideas I met was the garbage can theory that in effect organisations (and how much more, movements or communities) can fall into a trap of deep irrationality by which what are called "problems" or "solutions" and how they are matched as factions vie for power as led by champions bear but little connexion to objectivity or soundness. Politics, rhetoric, policy and soundness too often face an utter disconnect, including on deep worldviews issues -- precisely what happened in the Roman world in C1 as a certain messianic sect of Judaism burst on the scene, welcoming gentiles into their ranks without their first having to become full practicing Jews. It should be no surprise that I fear that our civilisation is clearly falling into this sort of intellectual debasement trap, best expressed as a mutinous ship of state. This is part of why I think we need to work our way through logic and first principles, here, including understanding the core issue of atheism. KFkairosfocus
July 2, 2019
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KF
I am not sure of the question, but if it is on where spirits or souls or occult forces more broadly came from, worldviews do not have to be comprehensive, they can have explanatory gaps.
The atheist/materialist worldview has some explanatory gaps, yes. I think that's what some of us try to point out here. The fewer explanatory gaps, the more coherent and comprehensive the worldview is. It was massive explanatory gaps, in part, that led to the destruction of ancient paganism as a more comprehensive and coherent worldview appeared.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2019
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In today’s world atheism does come with a certain mindset and worldview. You will see people claim it’s just a lack of belief but if that was so atheists wouldn’t work so hard to punish those that do believe. It’s like they want everyone else to share their cynicism or else they’ll come at you with intent to destroy your business or your life. As an example after having won the war on gay marriage in the U.S. via judicial fiat and not at the ballot box, many atheists insist on now going house-to-house to shoot any remaining survivors. They seek out Christian businesses to provide flowers or cakes for a gay wedding so they can call the cops if the Christians try to pass. Civil laws can reasonably require the accommodation of individual religious beliefs and have been around for centuries. That's why priests don't have to reveal confessions to the police and Quakers don't have to join the military. But in states that don’t have religious protection laws, Christians are being compelled, by general non-discrimination laws, to either participate in gay marriages or else go out of business. There has been a recent Supreme Court case that set the atheist community back by ruling in favor of a baker in Colorado, but the case is not over and they are even more upset now than they were before. Don’t assume that just because they’re in a panic they have a point. The more hysterical they are the more you should assume the whole thing is a sham. A roomful of gays would say, "Why don't you guys just go to one of the nine out of 10 bakers who would be happy to have your business?" (My guess is, if the zealots looked really hard, they might even be able to find a gay baker!) But that’s not what this is about. It’s about making others conform to the exercise of raw rule-making power. When whoever has the political power makes the rules without regard to reason absurd consequences often result. It's utter nonsense that any shopkeeper, least of all a nice Christian, would turn away a customer for any reason other than a deeply held religious belief, such as not wanting to participate in a gay wedding, a Planned Parenthood gala or any event involving Hillary Clinton. KF states that reason is morally governed. I agree. But the problem here is that many think that morals are whatever you define them to be. We are told by many that education (of the right sort), life experience, feedback and societal pressure can have all the good influence of ensuring young people grow to become responsible members of a moral and just society without any reference to an inherently good, utterly wise creator God. People can instead have a personal loyalty to and give service to a civil society established by their own communal ideas that establish what is good and just. In short they don’t think they need God for anything. They’ll make up their own rules and it will be a shining example everyone should follow. It’s been tried many times. I don’t think anybody denies that humans can be raised to believe and accept as fact just about anything. Unfortunately long term immersion in socio-political indoctrination can result in dangerous individuals wreaking havoc on our world. See China’s Red Guards, Cambodia’s Khmer Rouge and the Soviet Union’s NKVD. Members of these organizations were given education, indoctrination, life experience, feedback and a great deal of societal pressure to remove enemies of the State from existence. Of course, some commenting here have had a hard time admitting these people did anything morally wrong. In my younger life I was a fine example of what long term socio-political indoctrination can accomplish. In the 1980s I was a U.S. Marine. I was sent to Honduras to train their military. I educated members of Battalion 3-16 in the finer points of how to kill quietly, quickly and without the neighbors knowing anything about it. I handed out hundreds of Ka-Bar fighting knives and taught how to use them. After returning to the U.S. I began hearing stories about what some soldiers I had trained were doing. There were death squads that kidnapped, tortured and killed people. School teachers, doctors and policemen were being killed. Most likely by many of the boys – teenagers – I had trained. I had a lot of pride in being a Marine but what this seemed to mean in practice is that my government would send me around to various places to harden the hearts of foreign soldiers so they could kill with little remorse. I went through all the stages of loss from denial, to anger, grief, and eventually I left the Corps and never looked back. It’s up to everyone to reach their own sense of reason for what they do with their life. And to lead their lives as they see fit. It’s best to be humble, and not tell other people how to live or what to do. If you do that you need to make sure you have reason on your side. Not just power. We all make mistakes. Not all of us keep repeating them. If someone has something to ground their ideas of civil peace and justice other than the a raw exercise of rule-making power, once they and their fellow travelers have seized political power, please enlighten us. There doesn’t seem to be a limit on the number of words a comment on an OP here at UD must meet. But all we ever see are a few lines that summed up say “I disagree” with the OP. I think we all knew that before the usual fingers hit the keyboard. “Words never fail. We hear them, we read them; they enter into the mind and become part of us for as long as we shall live. Who speaks reason to his fellow men bestows it upon them. Who mouths inanity disorders thought for all who listen. There must be some minimum allowable dose of inanity beyond which the mind cannot remain reasonable. Irrationality, like buried chemical waste, sooner or later must seep into all the tissues of thought.” Quote from “Less Than Words Can Say” by Richard Mitchell.LoneCycler
July 1, 2019
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SA, atheism is one component of a worldview, denoting rejection of God. If other components accept occult powers, even personalised, that is possible (maybe souls after death?). In the relevant sense Deism is a variant form of theism, and I note Americans were different from the usual reference standard in Europe, e.g. Franklin seemed to believe in prayer and Jefferson referred to God's judgement of America (for slavery IIRC). I note, there are (odd? idiosyncratic?) forms of Buddhism that would be effectively atheistical -- a well known case in my native land was a leading columnist. Ironically, the man who took up the mantle (and just passed on) was a SDA Elder! KF PS: I am not sure of the question, but if it is on where spirits or souls or occult forces more broadly came from, worldviews do not have to be comprehensive, they can have explanatory gaps. Where, that something is accepted as being does not imply knowing how so. Notice, factual adequacy and balanced explanatory power are two of three key comparative difficulties tests. The third, is coherence (logical and dynamic).kairosfocus
July 1, 2019
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Would you agree that atheists who assert that some kind of spiritual entities actually exist are not giving serious or reasonable thought to that question of Origins? Spirituality does not necessitate a spiritual entity. Just ask the millions of Buddhist’s.
I inquired of Buddhist sources. No, you're incorrect. Buddhist spirituality necessitates a spiritual entity. Note the bold text: "This is called the Law of Karma, or the Law of Cause and Effect. Karmic law will lead the spirit of the dead to be reborn, in realms which are suitable appropriate to their karmic accumulations." https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma5/viewdeath.html In Buddhism there is a spirit (or soul) that lives on after physical death. This is a spiritual entity. Final nirvana is where souls live as gods or deities. The entity that is reincarnated is a spiritual soul. As I stated, the existence of spiritual entities requires an explanation. Buddhism is "atheistic" in that it is not a Theistic religion. But it is not atheistic in the ordinary use of that term to mean "disbelief in God or gods". There are deities in Buddhism. As for the rest of your comment, you didn't answer the question.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2019
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SA, some who are atheistical take the view that occult, manipulable forces are real, ... Some may accept the reality of souls and even spirits [including, personalities] while rejecting the existence of the God of ethical theism.
Two points. Following my previous comment, do you think an atheist who proposes that immaterial, spirits, forces or souls exist, has an explanation for their origin? I was suggesting that they do not and this renders the view inconsistent. If the atheist says that "souls from an all powerful spirit" -- to me, this is not atheism. Secondly, I am not using the term atheist as strictly referring to "ethical theism". For example, if American founder, Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, as many state, I wouldn't also call him an atheist. There was a time in the past, however, where pagans who worshipped various man-made gods or idols, were called atheists. That conforms to the strict usage of the word. But I'm using a more general meaning which is a denial of all gods, even a Deistic force.Silver Asiatic
July 1, 2019
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