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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
Error detected @328: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/relativists-need-to-check-their-moral-privilege/#comment-608410 The question "hast du nicht deutsch gelernt?" was written incorrectly. Sorry for the mistake. Note that the event referred in the story occurred many years ago and the person who told the story was young when the said event took place but now is much older. This means that some details might have changed slightly. However, the bottom line of the story remains valid.Dionisio
April 23, 2017
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Zero "I can’t even remember why we are talking about the Nazis and slaves, but let’s move on.' Depending on your time zone, good-morning, good afternoon or maybe good evening Zero. The reason we are talking about the Nazis and slaves goes back to your point that there is not a practical difference between adopting a subjective morality vs an objective reality. See post 455. I am trying to show ( in opposition to your view) that there are practical implications when it comes to different world views. That morality is objective is part of the Judaeo Christian worldview. What court would you rather present a legal argument against slavery, a court that embraces a Judaeo Christian worldview or a court that embraces a Hitlerian worldview especially after the enabling act of 1933? This is not an argument that proves morals are objective just that from a practical application worldviews do have practical implications. Vividvividbleau
June 2, 2016
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zeroseven said:
You talk about subjective morals as “preferences” as if it is no different than your preference of ice cream flavour. Yet, I have never heard a subjectivist say that subjective moral values were as trivial as that.
Of course they don't say it because (1) they know it's not true, and (2) they know how it would look if they said something like that. The problem is that to assert that morality is subjective is to categorize morality as the same kind of thing as a personal preference. That category of subjective preferences includes some very trivial things. Subjective morality is like a trivial preference because it is categorically the same kind of thing.
I have explained this many times. Early learning, indoctrination, negative and positive feedback, experience, repetition, etc. are known to produce subconscious “feelings” that are very deeply entrenched and difficult to violate without mental anguish (or discomfort). If you doubt me, get up tomorrow and conciously button your shirt it a different way than you routinely do. If something as trivial as buttoning your shirt can result in something more deeply seated than a mere “preference”, why would you think that values that have been beaten into you from the time you were born would be less so?
That doesn't change what moral subjectivism is in categorical terms. Even if, because of culture, authority and nature, you have a deep-seated revulsion of nuts, and eating nuts could physically kill you because of allergies, and you cannot even watch others eating nuts, you recognize that it is an entirely subjective, individual, personal reaction/preference and, if sane, you would never think of imposing a nut ban or a law about how to button your shirt on anyone else, nor would you feel either justified or obligated to intervene to stop them from eating nuts or buttoning their shirt differently. In fact, you would consider it immoral (or crazy) for anyone to intervene in this way in the personal habits of others, much less attempt to give such personal views/habits/proclivities/preferences force of law. Once again, CF, I can easily see that you have never given any of this much thought because you keep throwing up defenses or explanations that only serve to expose how irrational your view is. We experience morality as categorically unlike any subjective/personal/individual proclivity, preference or even natural tendency. We experience fundamental moral principles as metaphysical absolutes, a universally binding perception of what humans - all humans - should and should not do and the rights they have. We cannot escape acting as if some core moral principles are more important than our personal desires, our very lives or the comfort of our loved ones. There are moral truths we hold to be more certain and more factual than provisional scientific facts. We are all absolutely certain, whether we admit it or not, that cruelty is immoral in every conceivable world and love is good in every conceivable world and that morality would make no sense at all if cruelty could be a good thing. Some of us, however, are not willing to admit these truths to ourselves. Do people disagree about what is good and what is evil? Certainly, just as people have disagreed about all things, even physical facts. The "people disagree" card is nothing but a sentimental pass with zero rational weight you give yourselves so you don't actually have to critically examine the nonsense you are advancing. You can throw whatever hypocritical, self-defeating, erroneous analogies you come up with at the wall to see if they stick; all you are doing is revealing the shallowness of your thought on the matter and the unrelenting, irrational hypocrisy of your moral framework.William J Murray
June 2, 2016
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Zeroseven said:
I keep making this point and no one ever responds. None of you really think that abortion is the murder of human beings. If you did, you could not live in a society that, to use StephenB’s words, slices up and scalds babies to death by the millions.
I consider abortion and murder to be moral errors. I consider a lot of acts to be moral errors; human existence is jam-packed in every corner with moral errors. We all make moral errors - myself included. I don't consider myself to be a very good person, although I do strive to be good enough. Where would I go to escape moral error? There's nowhere to go, because even if it didn't exist before I got there, it would arrive with me. Also, I don't consider physical existence, or what we do here in this particular lifetime, to be as crucial to the moral scheme of things or our own well-being as perhaps others here do. In my view, the aborted and the murdered simply return to the pre-life/after-life state of existence for them to continue on, with perhaps some pain and scarring from their experience to heal. Rather, it is those who committed the acts that bear the burden of the immoral nature of those acts. It is for those that would make the moral error of abortion that I will pose an argument against it; it is because it is an obvious logical error that I would endorse a law against providing abortions in cases other than when the mother's life was at risk, just as there are laws against murder but which allow for killing in self-defense.
It’s way worse than Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Russia and Pol Pot combined. But you limit your involvement to making comments on a blog.
I think that's a rather huge assumption on your part. Do you really think the only contribution anyone here has made against abortion is writing in this blog?
I’m sorry, but it doesn’t ring true. If I believed what you believed I would be in the resistance overthrowing the government. Or at the least would leave.
I can't speak for others here, but for me the point of being here is not to find some isolated place where you can hide from immorality, injustice and irrational thinking, but to serve the moral purpose in the manner which our talents, personalities and skills are suited, and to address clear moral calls to action when necessitated by our perceptions of the moral landscape. IOW, Zeroseven, we're not here to stop immorality - that cannot be done. We're here to serve our particular purpose as best we can, to accept our personal moral challenges and not shirk them - not act in accordance with your particular expectations.William J Murray
June 2, 2016
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Thanks Vivid, you too.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Zero No problem I understand jobs get in the way of blogging :) Have a good evening. BTW I should have wrote "de facto" Supreme Justice Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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Vivid: Maybe I was a bit quick off the mark. I'm pretty busy today and slotting in comments in between work stuff. Sorry if I have perplexed you. I can't even remember why we are talking about the Nazis and slaves, but let's move on.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Zero "I’m afraid I don’t know enough about US history to know what the enabling Act of 1933 is and no time to research it. If you are saying that pursuant to this Act slavery was declared illegal in the US, then of course I would rather argue in a US court. I thought we were talking about a situation where slavery was legal in both jurisdictions." I guess this brings up a perplexing question for me, if you are not familiar with the enabling act of 1933 how could you knowledgeably make the statement that you would rather argue on the behalf of Africans in a German court that embraced a Hitlarian worldview? FYI this was an amendment to the German constitution that transferred all power to the Nazis and made Hitler, along with other powers, the Supreme Justice of the country . Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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Hi Vivid: Glad you recognise the objective goodness of Pulp Fiction! I'm afraid I don't know enough about US history to know what the enabling Act of 1933 is and no time to research it. If you are saying that pursuant to this Act slavery was declared illegal in the US, then of course I would rather argue in a US court. I thought we were talking about a situation where slavery was legal in both jurisdictions. But in any case, I wouldn't refer to a court as embracing a religious world view. Court systems around the world embrace more the legal and cultural conditions of their country. If I was defending a guilty person for instance I would much rather do it in an English court than a French court as there is no presumption of innocence in the Roman law tradition (which is the basis of most non-english speaking European or European derived legal systems). If I was suing for damages for personal injury I would rather do it in a US court as the awards are much higher. And despite the Nazis being Nazis, I have no idea how the court system in Germany functioned during that time. Perhaps it maintained some sort of judicial independence. I have no idea. I do know that, closer to my home, the Fijian court system was often at odds with the military governments through the various coups they have had there.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Perhaps Clown fish should start with the meaning of the word subjective I don't think he really knows the actual meaning. Here is a start; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjectiveAndre
June 1, 2016
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Zero "You were asking me a question about what I would do as a lawyer. As a lawyer I am ethically and legally required to act in the best interests of my client, not my own." Which makes your answer even more shocking. That you would rather argue before a court on the behalf of an African American regarding slavery to a court which embraced a Hitlerian worldview vs a Judaeo Christian worldview is absurd, it's so absurd that I don't even want to respond since to say this undermines your credulity and mine as well. Zero I know your are an intelligent person and I know you cannot mean this, after all you are smart enough to recognize that "Pulp Fiction" is objectively good :) So I am going to narrow the question. After the enabling act of 1933 would you rather argue against slavery for ( pick your class) in a court that embraced the Judeao Christian worldview or the Hitlerian worldview? Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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KF, This topic is indeed very tangential to this thread, so I might put up a reply later in the Infinite Past thread.daveS
June 1, 2016
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DS, we patently cannot traverse an endless span of steps of warrant in either direction step by step, pivoting on our finitude and fallibility given that a chunk of time, effort, energy will be taken up by each successive step in building a worldviws case. Pointing across the ellipsis of endlessness and imposing a conclusion is a finitely remote final step, even in Mathematics. And this 'ent Maths, it is warranting worldviews. Why the persistent sidetrack on a tangential matter when you have already in effect acknowledged tangentiality? KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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Zeroseven: "That’s fighting talk!" :) :). :)clown fish
June 1, 2016
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KF, You state in your infographic that "the infinite regress is absurd, we cannot even get to A step by step from infinity". Obviously, I have issues with that statement, but it appears to be making the claim that infinite regresses absolutely cannot exist, not merely that we finite humans have trouble comprehending them. In any case, I don't see that infinite regresses raise any problems wrt my worldview. And with that, I'll bow out on this topic.daveS
June 1, 2016
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Phinehas @496: That's fighting talk!zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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DS, I spoke to a specific matter, and your objections have now been implicitly acknowledged as irrelevant. The infeasibility of an infinite, endless chain of warrant for the finite and fallible is what was needed, and is patent. The real issue is to avoid question-begging circularity in the inevitably finite chain of warrant. That points to comparative difficulties across live option sets of first plausibles. Which was what was pointed out to begin with; there was no need for a side-track. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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KF, I'm not disputing that particular point; I'm asking an elementary yes/no question, but without success apparently. If you want to take up the question in the future, let me know.daveS
June 1, 2016
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DS, the point is quite plain, an infinite regress of warrant by a finite fallible agent or collective of such is plainly impossible by way of being patently infeasible. It needs not be belaboured; we will die and/or run out of resources within a finite span of time and effort and endlessness would still continue beyond wherever we could reach. I am amazed that such is even being disputed. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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KF, Again, am I correct in surmising that your argument does not claim to show that infinite regresses are impossible?daveS
June 1, 2016
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DS, my summary is not hand-waving. We are finite and fallible, warrant is a process which requires time and effort; we simply cannot complete an endless chain of warrant. The real challenge is for us to deal with a finite chain of warrant without question-begging. Hence, comparative difficulties. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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cf:
Phinehas: You mean it is only relevant for some developing fetuses, right?
cf: Since you are obviously not interested in having an honest discussion about the subject I will leave you to play with yourself.
Once again I will call your bluff. First of all, you've accused me of being dishonest while quoting a question I've posed to you. Please explain how I can be dishonest while asking you for clarification about what you've said. Second, if I am being dishonest, surely you can point out how. Please explain what is dishonest about this:
Phin: You mean it is only relevant for some developing fetuses, right? It wouldn’t be relevant for those who have congenital analgesia. As far as pain sensitivity goes, there would be no difference for them before and after your 26 week cutoff. So would it be all right to abort these unfortunate humans after 26 weeks? If not, then why not?
I'm afraid your accusation of dishonesty, especially given that it follows a request for clarification, that the accusation is incredibly vague, and that you've delivered it as a parting shot while trying to extricate yourself from the discussion, will only convince other readers that you are now desperate to avoid addressing the logical inconsistencies in your stated position. They might also suspect that you don't want something like logic to interfere in the incredible flexibility that you currently enjoy when declaring what is good and evil according to your own whim.Phinehas
June 1, 2016
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07:
None of you really think that abortion is the murder of human beings. If you did, you could not live in a society that, to use StephenB’s words, slices up and scalds babies to death by the millions. It’s way worse than Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Russia and Pol Pot combined.
Your point seems undermined by the fact that lot's of people lived in the societies you hold up as examples of societies none of us could live in. Jesus lived under Roman subjugation, which had its own list of atrocities, not the least of which was crucifixion.Phinehas
June 1, 2016
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Phinehas: "You mean it is only relevant for some developing fetuses, right?" Since you are obviously not interested in having an honest discussion about the subject I will leave you to play with yourself.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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07: Obviously, anyone who prefers Hokey Pokey or any other flavor of ice cream over Pineapple Sherbet ought to be locked up for the sake of society at large. A Pineapple-Sherbet-loving society is by far the best possible one. This is true and demonstrable to the same extent as that an equality-loving society is by far the best possible one, under the view that morality is subjective.Phinehas
June 1, 2016
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KF,
DS, an infinite succession of warrant A . . B . . . C . . . is infeasible for the finite and fallible. It cannot be completed — at any finite K no matter how large there is still endlessness to go in required warrant. It cannot be completed correctly. It is futile. So a worldview will have to terminate its chain of warrant at some finitely remote point. To do so without question-begging circularity, it needs to undertake comparative difficulties among the relevant live options on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. KF
Now this is hand-waving! :-) Before I respond, are we agreed that the above argument is not an attempt to show an infinite regress is impossible? I suppose if this discussion continues, it might be appropriate to shift over to the Infinite Past thread?daveS
June 1, 2016
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cf:
Phin: If so, then how? And why is it only relevant for some humans and not others?
cf: I linked a paper above about neurological development in developing fetuses that explains some of this. It is only relevant for developing fetuses because once the brain becomes further developed there are other cognitive capabilities that become developed.
You mean it is only relevant for some developing fetuses, right? It wouldn't be relevant for those who have congenital analgesia. As far as pain sensitivity goes, there would be no difference for them before and after your 26 week cutoff. So would it be all right to abort these unfortunate humans after 26 weeks? If not, then why not?Phinehas
June 1, 2016
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WJM @487: As far as I can tell my morals are a complicated mixture of culture, family upbringing, my own life experiences, plus some sort of inbuilt evolutionary tendencies (based on the need to co-exist safely in a large group of the same species). A big moral issue here in the 1980s was whether the South African rugby tour was good or bad. I was strongly on the side that considered it immoral. As did most of my friend's and family, so that implies to me that I am influenced by the people I love and who cared for me as a child. I believe tax avoidance is immoral as it leads to huge companies like Google not paying their fair share to maintain the community they are part of. On that issue I find opinion very much divided amongst my friends and colleagues. So it seems my position on that is less influenced by my relationships and more by my own experiences. Take something like tax avoidance. What is the process you would use to decide if it was moral or not, and how does that differ from mine I wonder?zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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DS, an infinite succession of warrant A . . B . . . C . . . is infeasible for the finite and fallible. It cannot be completed -- at any finite K no matter how large there is still endlessness to go in required warrant. It cannot be completed correctly. It is futile. So a worldview will have to terminate its chain of warrant at some finitely remote point. To do so without question-begging circularity, it needs to undertake comparative difficulties among the relevant live options on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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WJM: "I challenge CF and zeroseven to explain, from logically consistent moral subjectivism, how any of their moral views do not depend entirely upon personal preference, and how that principle cannot be used to make anything moral – even cruelty." You talk about subjective morals as "preferences" as if it is no different than your preference of ice cream flavour. Yet, I have never heard a subjectivist say that subjective moral values were as trivial as that. I have explained this many times. Early learning, indoctrination, negative and positive feedback, experience, repetition, etc. are known to produce subconscious "feelings" that are very deeply entrenched and difficult to violate without mental anguish (or discomfort). If you doubt me, get up tomorrow and conciously button your shirt it a different way than you routinely do. If something as trivial as buttoning your shirt can result in something more deeply seated than a mere "preference", why would you think that values that have been beaten into you from the time you were born would be less so?clown fish
June 1, 2016
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