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Civil Discourse Not Tolerated by Darwinist

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Jason Rosenhouse has written a blog about Michael Ruse and William Dembski. His complaint against Ruse, among other things, is that Ruse is too cordial, too civil with ID supporters, Dembski especially.

And while I may dislike and disagree with Ruse’s thinking, it is his actions over the last several years that I loathe and detest. I hate the way he has been doing everything in his power to prop up the ID folks. I hate that he persuaded a presitgious university press to publish a book co-edited by William Dembski, which featured four essays defending “Darwinism” that seemed tailor made to make evolution look bad. I hate that he contributes essays to anthologies designed to celebrate ID promoters and that he tells debate audiences that Dembski has made valuable contributions to science. Go here for relevant links and further details.

Rosenhouse hates quite a lot. What Rosenhouse also finds intolerable is that Ruse would even entertain the idea that an atheist Darwinist like Ruse gives any credence whatsoever to the proposition that religion is not the world’s greatest evil:

Michael Ruse has a very bad op-ed in The Guardian. Jerry Coyne and P. Z. Myers have already laid into him (here and here respectively), but why should they have all the fun? Ruse writes:

If you mean someone who agrees that logically there could be a god, but who doesn’t think that the logical possibility is terribly likely, or at least not something that should keep us awake at night, then I guess a lot of us are atheists. But there is certainly a split, a schism, in our ranks. I am not whining (in fact I am rather proud) when I point out that a rather loud group of my fellow atheists, generally today known as the “new atheists”, loathe and detest my thinking.

Amateur hour.

If the new atheists (folks like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett) are making the party line, Rosenhouse is just towing it like a pack mule. But be forewarned, all you young lurkers, because Rosenhouse can’t tolerate nine year old’s either:

A while back I was a counselor at a summer camp, keeping an eye on a group of rowdy nine year olds. One of the kids was taunted relentlessly by the others for his incessant whining. He did not help his cause by answering such taunts with, “I don’t whine!” said in a pathetically whiny tone of voice.

If you have to tell people you are not whining, you’re whining.

Rosenhouse would, not doubt, maintain that he himself is not whining.

Ruse writes:

Second, unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, “What caused God?” as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery.

Indeed, it is an uneducated question that Ruse is right to point out. It is based on the assumption that everything, even supernatural things, need a first cause. Natural things do need a first cause, but I don’t see how we could logically apply natural rules to supernatural things. Yet Dawkins is so steeped in materialism, that I presume he smuggles in material necessities, such as the necessary first cause argument, even when thinking about the immaterial and supernatural. I appreciate that Ruse is trying to understand the argument, while the new atheists and Rosenhouse don’t seem to be, or maybe they are just too dense to understand, or too lost to care, or both.

The rest of his blog is much of the same kind of argument. I would say it’s childish, but that would be an offense to children, for children, in their innocence, have more of a sense of fairness and respect for their fellows than Rosenhouse has. Praise for Michael Ruse for having intellectual integrity instead of a rabid dog in the fight. The response that Rosenhouse has is, I suspect, the result of a poor education.

“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.”

~C.S. Lewis

Although, I have to admit, Rosenhouse is not even clever.

Comments
#102 StephenB You are becoming abrasive again: "When I throughly refuted both points, you continued on as sleek as ever" (Ironic given the original title of the post). I am stopping our dialogue.Mark Frank
November 14, 2009
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---Mark Frank: "I was only concerned with the request of Timeaus to show how “Darwinian evolution” might be falsified. We seem to have drifted off the subject a bit." I thought that Upright Biped, confirming Timmeaus, had made the point sufficiently clear, holding that Darwinian evolution cannot be falsified since it posits an "unguided" process. As a response, you began by saying that "undirected evolution" is not, in fact, a part of the Darwinist hypothesis, and that no self respecting scientist would characterize it that way. When I throughly refuted both points, you continued on as sleek as ever by saying that, well, it is "only a part" of the hypothesis, as if that constituted a new argument. When I explained that being only a part of the hypothesis is enough to make it unscientific, you responded again by saying that we are drifting. My point @ 100 was to explain WHY Darwinists must insist that evolution is an unguided process, because I thought the additional information would edify everyone concerned, including yourself. If, on the other hand, you do not care about the reasons that Darwinists posit unguided, undirected, unplanned evolution, then I trust we can simply agree that they do, and as a result, render their hypothesis unfalsifiable---unless, of course, you want to start all over again by denying the point anew and reducing me to presenting another round of examples.StephenB
November 14, 2009
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#100 StephenB I was only concerned with the request of Timeaus to show how "Darwinian evolution" might be falsified. We seem to have drifted off the subject a bit.Mark Frank
November 14, 2009
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---Mark: "It is part of the hypothesis. But only part. Without the additional detail i.e. a specific method of providing unguided evolution it would be unfalsifiable because it could include any unguided method – including those yet to be imagined. With the additional detail it becomes falsifiable. That’s why no biologist would propose unguided evolution as a hypothesis without the additional detail." But it shouldn't be in the hypothesis at all, and the fact that it is, in whatever form, or with whatever justification, completely invalidates it as a scientific formulation. Let me show you in dialogical form how this works and why Darwinists must characterized evolution as an unguided process: D = [Darwinist] ID = [ID proponent]. D: Do you believe in evolution or are you one of those religious fanatics who think that God created the universe? ID: I simply follow where the evidence leads, and the evidence points to design. D: So, just as I suspected. You are an evolution denier. ID: No, not really. I accept evolution as a distinct possibility. D: But, as an ID advocate, you don’t really accept evolution because you deny common descent. ID: No, not really. While some of us are skeptical about that point, the ID paradigm itself allows for common descent or macro evolution, whichever way you want to put it. D: Ah, but do you accept undirected, macro evolution? Simply acknowledging the possibility of macro-evolution, or even accepting it as a fact, will not exempt you from the charge of “creationism.” You must accept undirected, macro evolution or else you are simply allowing your religion to leak into your methods. Either you accept undirected macro evolution [metaphysics posing as science] or you are not a scientist. In keeping with that point, I hereby declare by fiat that science must study nature as if nature is all there is [methodological naturalism, the epistemological guard that protects the metaphysics]. As a simple institutional strategy for survival, the Darwinist must include the element of “unguidedness” as part of his hypothesis? If he doesn’t, he has nothing more to say once ID confirms that it is not anti-evolution in principle. Thus, Darwinists are “all in” for undirected evolution and depend on this metaphysical intrusion on science as a defense against all evidence to the contrary. Hence, a statement [around the year 2000] From the Kansas Board of Education “Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection.” See how that works? To protect their psuedo science, Darwinists must establish non-scientific definitions and rules, and enforce them through the use of power. It's as simple as that.StephenB
November 14, 2009
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#98 StephenB It is part of the hypothesis. But only part. Without the additional detail i.e. a specific method of providing unguided evolution it would be unfalsifiable because it could include any unguided method - including those yet to be imagined. With the additional detail it becomes falsifiable. That's why no biologist would propose unguided evolution as a hypothesis without the additional detail. I did not attempt to move the goalposts. I am sorry if it comes across that way. MarkMark Frank
November 14, 2009
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---Mark Frank: "When I say: ---"No respectable biologist in the world is putting forward the hypothesis “unguided evolution” as a scientific hypothesis. They are putting forward specific hypotheses which happen to be unguided. I don’t mean that it is unimportant that the hypotheses are unguided. It may well be something that the biologist wants to stress about the hypothesis – as you show in your examples. However, the hypothesis is not just “evolution is unguided”. It is far more specific which allows it to be falsified and makes it scientific." It is either a part of the hypothesis or it isn't. Do you not notice how you have moved the goalposts. You can't reasonably say, on the one hand, that it is NOT a part of the hypothesis and then turn around and say that it is ONLY a part of the hypothesis. Indeed, Darwinism in the broader sense, has its own way of moving the goalposts, as its hypothesis, like yours, keeps morphing and morphing in an attempt to find new life as its older manifestations are killed off by the evidence.StephenB
November 14, 2009
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#96 Look at comments 45, 65, and 82 under the heading of “TRIVIAL”. I have read this comments and I am no clearer. Could you not just answer "true" or "false"? Is that an obscure request?Mark Frank
November 14, 2009
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Mark, "When it comes down to it one of the requests was for something that would falsify the “Darwinian hypothesis”" There was never a request to falsify microevolution (see #82). Please dont make us go through that again. "Do you know – after all these words I have no idea whether you think that response is true or false!" Look at comments 45, 65, and 82 under the heading of "TRIVIAL". "But of course I am the one guilty of obfuscation." If the shoe fits.Upright BiPed
November 14, 2009
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The flaw is that micro-"evolution" is not truly evolution at all, in the sense that you want it to mean, but in reality ALL micro-"evolution" events fall under what is more properly called Genetic Entropy of pre-existing functional information. To falsify this a evolutionists must simply Pass the "fitness test" find the gain in molecular functionality that exceeds 140 FITS (Functional Information Bits). A truly trivial level of proof if you ask me, but yet one level which I see no reason to be violated from foundational principles of physics. i.e. I have no foundation in physics to presuppose evolution to be true.bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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#93 BA^77 Thank for a short comment. However, it is irrelevant. My case is extraordinarily simple. Darwinian evolution cannot happen without microevolution. Therefore if microevolution were shown to be false Darwinian evolution would be show to be false QED Where is the flaw?Mark Frank
November 14, 2009
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Mark Frank can you prove that ANY micro-evolutionary events are in fact the result of a gain in functional complexity above and greater than was already present in the parent species? and Can you prove that they are not in fact the result of "beneficial degradation" of the functional complexity that was already present as has been clearly demonstrated by Behe in "The Edge"?bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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#91 When it comes down to it one of the requests was for something that would falsify the "Darwinian hypothesis". The response from Allen (and I agree) was anything that would falsify microevolution. Do you know - after all these words I have no idea whether you think that response is true or false! But of course I am the one guilty of obfuscation.Mark Frank
November 14, 2009
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This thread began as a discussion of the very public vitriol coming from the materialists community towards the design thesis. The vitriol comes easy, of course. Then at comment 17 it morphed into a demonstration of what actually happens when you ask a Professor of Biology at one of America’s leading universities to validate the scientific status of unguided evolution by simply providing a scenario whereby the thesis of unguided evolution may the falsified. What followed was an almost comical attempt to change the subject. That attempt was thoroughly rejected for its obviousness, and then after much rummaging around, a second attempt was put forth. That attempt was even weaker than the first, at which point the Professor deplaned the conversation for greener grass among the other threads. Then Mark Frank and others appeared, only to pick up on the points of obfuscation left on the ground by the Professor before them. Yet, instead of defending the idea that unguided evolution is a falsifiable hypothesis (and is therefore scientific in nature) they have instead shown that the opposite is true, and have as admitted as much. Now the only face-saving move is to condition that admission by suggesting that scientist never actually “put forward the hypothesis of ‘unguided evolution’ as a scientific hypothesis.” This of course, is a laughable proposition. Any ID proponent worth their salt could start posting the public quotes and proclamations of scientists presenting that exact idea, and they would die of old age before they got them all posted. Having been given some examples of scientists using their status (as scientist) to make the public case for unguided evolution, Mr. Frank then tells us “It may well be something that the biologist wants to stress about the hypothesis – as you show in your examples. However, the hypothesis is not just “evolution is unguided”. It is far more specific which allows it to be falsified and makes it scientific”. There are two distinct points to this comment, which is itself a crystalline example of the issue at hand. In the second part of the comment, Mr. Frank tells us that the hypothesis isn’t just about being unguided, but that it has other qualities which can indeed be falsified - and are therefore scientific. This is, of course, a reemergence of the obfuscation that the Professor attempted earlier. The idea is that if the conversation can be focused on the falsifiability of microevolution, then we needn’t concern ourselves with the falsifiability of the larger claim of unguided processes being at the heart of all Life. In other words, we can use microevolution to smuggle in the remainder of our claims, (unfalsifiable or not, unproven or not, unscientific or not). This brings us to the second point on display by the comment above – that is, the conscious choice made by scientists to willfully “stress” (as Mark puts it) the part of the claim which is indeed not falsifiable. In other words, there are many facets to evolution; some of those are falsifiable (and are therefore scientific), while others are not falsifiable (and cannot even be considered scientific). So as a matter of record, Science has chosen to stress that which is not science. In light of these admissions, the vitriolic claims of materialists against design (the subject of the OP) can be seen in their proper perspective – that is, taken with a grain of salt.Upright BiPed
November 14, 2009
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#89 StephenB - as you know I don't like to get into debate with you as it tends to get rather acrimonious. However, you have revealed that I have not explained something well so thanks. When I say: No respectable biologist in the world is putting forward the hypothesis “unguided evolution” as a scientific hypothesis. They are putting forward specific hypotheses which happen to be unguided. I don't mean that it is unimportant that the hypotheses are unguided. It may well be something that the biologist wants to stress about the hypothesis - as you show in your examples. However, the hypothesis is not just "evolution is unguided". It is far more specific which allows it to be falsified and makes it scientific. I guess the "slow fat pitches" are a reference to baseball. In cricket slow bowling is one of the most effective techniques. The slow bowler will often deliberately deliver slow balls with "plenty of air" to deceive the batsman into making an aggressive stroke which is not justified.Mark Frank
November 13, 2009
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----Mark Frank: "No respectable biologist in the world is putting forward the hypothesis “unguided evolution” as a scientific hypothesis. They are putting forward specific hypotheses which happen to be unguided." Mark, please stop giving me these slow, fat pitches right over the middle of the plate. Ken Miller: From earlier editions of his biological textbook: “Evolution works without either plan or purpose”---that is its “random and undirected.” From his latest book: ----“random, undirected process of mutation had produced the ‘right’ kind of variation for natural selection to act upon” (p. 51) ----"a random, undirected process like evolution" (p. 102) ----"blind, random, undirected evolution [could] have produced such an intricate set of structures and organs, so brilliantly dedicated to a single purpose" (p. 137) ----"the random, undirected processes of mutation and natural selection" (p. 145) ----"Evolution is a natural process, and natural processes are undirected" (p. 244) He as also agreed with Simpson’s remark that evolution is a purposeless, mindless process THAT DID NO HAVE MAN IN MIND. Further, in his book with Levine, he writes this: ”Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless--a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, THERE WAS NO DIVINE PLAN TO GUIDE US."StephenB
November 13, 2009
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#86 As to the first question of Micro/Macro evolution – that entire line of thought was nothing more than MacNeil’s diversioanry tactic. I have proven that repeatedly with MacNeil’s own words (#75). Unless you wan’t to argue that it has an impact on the hypothesis of unguidedevolution, then it should be dropped. Do you now accept that falsifying microevolution would falsify Darwinian evolution?Mark Frank
November 13, 2009
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#86 No respectable biologist in the world is putting forward the hypothesis "unguided evolution" as a scientific hypothesis. They are putting forward specific hypotheses which happen to be unguided. If someone says the life came about through unguided evolution I will gladly admit that is not a scientific hypothesis - although it is not a fraud. Will you join me in similarly condemning someone, if they put forward that hypothesis that life came about through a guided source as a scientific statement?Mark Frank
November 13, 2009
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Mark, As to the first question of Micro/Macro evolution - that entire line of thought was nothing more than MacNeil's diversioanry tactic. I have proven that repeatedly with MacNeil's own words (#75). Unless you wan't to argue that it has an impact on the hypothesis of unguidedevolution, then it should be dropped. And with good riddance. - - - - - - As to the second question: "However, I do admit that the hypothesis: “Evolution is unguided” is not scientific. Unguided evolution is the core metaphysical concept within NDE++. You can now join with me to alert the planet that every time someone hears that "it" all came about by unguided evolution, they are hearing a scientific fraud.Upright BiPed
November 13, 2009
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#83 Dear UB I think it is worth pursuing this because there are some deeper consequences of what appears to be a trivial debate. On multiple questions I am familiar with the scenario you describe. However, it is also common for someone to pose a similar series of related questions where it is not clear which is the central question, and when the questioner himself may not realise he is asking multiple different questions. For example imagine a somewhat breathless friend saying: "Are you prepared to help me? Will you be there to help me tomorrow? Can you help me at dinner time?" The questions are related but have different answers. It is not obvious which is the central question and at least one of the questions needs clarifying (dinner time today or tomorrow, and when is dinner?). It would be completely reasonable to respond "if you mean will I come round at noon tomorrow to help - then the answer is yes". I know I am not going to convince you that Timeaus comment was like this example rather than yours - so I suggest we leave that particular item. On question 2: What would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis? As you know, my concern with this is that "Darwinian hypothesis" is ambiguous. You feel that macroevolution caused by mutations plus natural selection etc. resolves the ambiguity. But it doesn't. The "etc" could be almost anything. Does it include genetic drift, Lamarckism, epigenetics? Whatever is meant by “etc”, does the hypothesis claim that all macroevolution happens this way, or just some of it? The conditions of falsification vary according to these details. For example, the hypothesis that "all macroevolution is due to mutation in DNA plus natural selection" is not only falsifiable but false. But for a very wide range of definitions of Darwinian evolution – falsifying microevolution would falsify Darwinian evolution. Here is what you wrote: You then say: “by simple logic if microevolution is false then all these Darwinian hypotheses are false.” No one asked for such a triviality, but since you insist on it, let’s look at your logic. By what you’ve said, you are implying that the way to falsify macroevolution is to simply falsify microevolution. Allow me to ask two questions: 1) Does it ever occur to you that microevolution could be true while macroevolution could be false? If your answer to this is “yes”, then your whole comment is vacant, and there would be no point for you to repeatedly bring it up. But, if your answer to this is “no”, then you are committing a logic fallacy. The observation of one does not confirm the other. 2) Are you not implying that if microevolution is true, then macroevolution is also true? If your answer to this is “yes”, then you have taken something observed and used it to smuggle something unobserved into the equation. This would be considered bad science and even poorer logic. However, if your answer is “no”, then why do you continue to bring it up as if it was somehow meaningful? Seriously, why? I think you are getting confused between if A then B and if B then A. Yes it does occur to me that microevolution could be true while macroevolution is false. It is however irrelevant to the claim that if microevolution is false then macroevolution is false. And I most certainly am not implying that if microevolution is true, then macroevolution is also true. I am only implying that if macroevolution is true then microevolution is true. The logic is a simple modus tollens. If A then B. Not B. Therefore not A. In this case A is the rather vague hypothesis: "Darwinian evolution is true" and B is “microevolution is true". As long you accept “Darwinian evolution requires microevolution” then this logic must hold and you have a method of falsifying Darwinian evolution (there are other methods). On question 2: What would falsify unguided evolution? I wrote “The answer to the first is demonstration of guided evolution – nothing else could do it” And you responded that this is a tacit admission that unguided evolution is not falsifiable. I am not sure why you say this. If someone established that evolution was guided then surely this would falsify the statement that evolution is unguided? However, I do admit that the hypothesis: “Evolution is unguided” is not scientific. It is far too vague. It says nothing about how evolution might work or what outcomes we might expect. It makes no predictions. Exactly the same problems apply to the hypothesis “Evolution is guided” neither are scientific hypotheses. I don’t see that this is a problem for evolutionary biology. All it shows is the importance of differentiating between a generic statement like “evolution is unguided” and specific hypotheses about how and why it happened. Finally, you wrote: Evolution being guided by the act of an agent is a historical fact Do you mean domestic breeding of cattle, dogs, pigeons etc? Yours MarkMark Frank
November 13, 2009
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jitsak, Put your arms down.Upright BiPed
November 13, 2009
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Upright Biped,
And there you have it – the hypothesis that evolution is completely unguided is a non-falsifiable hypothesis in the first sense because to falsify it would require a test of the un-testable, and in the second sense because we never have to subject our prior assumptions to a final test – indeed there is no final test. Therefore, as a matter in keeping with the structure of scientific investigation, the hypothesis fails to be science. It is a metaphysical assumption driven by ideology, but it is not science.
You are seriously misguided, pun intended! The hypothesis "Evolution occurs entirely by unguided processes" is not part of evolutionary theory (ET). ET proposes a number of specific testable and tested mechanistic processes that may cause evolution. As it happens, none of the proposed mechanisms includes guidance by an intelligent agent. The reason being that we have no way of knowing how to include the agents in the models. If you do, please let us know, and enjoy your claim to fame! If not, stop misrepresenting ET.jitsak
November 13, 2009
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As I previously said, Timaeus was asking a central question within his larger comment. He did so in a way that is as normal in conversation as it could possibly be. You ask a question and fill in context, you then re-ask the question and add more context. Then by the end of your comment, you have proceeded to ask the question in it fullest context. It is this question that you pose to be answered. Now…the scenario I just outlined is so obvious and normal in average conversation, that I feel like I am talking to a child just by trying to explain it. I dare say there is not a single adult who has not spoken this way. Yet, this is where the defense of entrenched ideology often takes the conversation. One must wade through the obfuscation laid down by those who have nothing left to defend themselves. So, please allow me to offer an example as a way to illustrate this obvious conversational characteristic – one which you have hijacked in order to avoid the central question: One friend says to another: “Are you going to be there to help me tomorrow? I know you don’t want to, but I really need your help. The last time it was you who needed the help, so I was there for you, and you said you would help me when it came time. You were serious about that, right? And I know that you don’t want to act happy about it, but I did it for you. I put a smile on my face and did what had to be done. So tell me, are you going to be able to put aside your feelings, be in good spirits, and meet me there at 3 o’clock with all the paperwork and be ready to go – just like I did for you?” Now Mark, what do you think is the actual question the friend is asking? Do you think there were three individual questions with an expectation of three individual answers, or, a central question asked in a series of expanding contexts? Seriously, this is the level of inane obfuscation you have forced upon a conversation in which all the participants and onlookers already understood what was being asked. The question being asked is the one in the fullest of context. Duh. In any case; I’ll take you at face value, since you demand that these are separate questions. Let me start with your second comment. You say:
The answer to the second [question] depends on what you mean by “Darwinian hypothesis”.
Well, perhaps you should have just read the question instead of angling for a way to ignore the final context. Timaeus says right up front (at the beginning) “What experiment could unambiguously eliminate the Darwinian hypothesis (macroevolution caused by mutations plus natural selection etc.)?” There’s your definition, Mark – which is to say, virtually everything you’ve posted was a pointless diatribe. You then say:
“by simple logic if microevolution is false then all these Darwinian hypotheses are false.”
No one asked for such a triviality, but since you insist on it, let’s look at your logic. By what you’ve said, you are implying that the way to falsify macroevolution is to simply falsify microevolution. Allow me to ask two questions: 1) Does it ever occur to you that microevolution could be true while macroevolution could be false? If your answer to this is “yes”, then your whole comment is vacant, and there would be no point for you to repeatedly bring it up. But, if your answer to this is “no”, then you are committing a logic fallacy. The observation of one does not confirm the other. 2) Are you not implying that if microevolution is true, then macroevolution is also true? If your answer to this is “yes”, then you have taken something observed and used it to smuggle something unobserved into the equation. This would be considered bad science and even poorer logic. However, if your answer is “no”, then why do you continue to bring it up as if it was somehow meaningful? Seriously, why? - - - - - - - And now to your comment regarding falsifiability:
The answer to the first is demonstration of guided evolution – nothing else could do it because “unguided evolution” is an open-ended concept. Who knows what other unguided evolution concept might crop up.
This is an incredibly revealing comment so let’s explore it for a moment, starting with the first sentence: “The answer to the first is demonstration of guided evolution – nothing else could do it” This is a tacit admission that unguided evolution is not falsifiable. The ground that you’ve fought for is the ground that Mr. MacNeil has the good sense to run from. At the very least he could say that I insulted him and he simply left the conversation, but you – you have staked you flag on it. 1) Evolution being guided by the act of an agent is a historical fact, and not only is it a historical fact, but the examples of agency-guided evolution will increase by orders of magnitude in the future. There isn’t a materialist alive that would say the fact of agent-guided evolution has falsified unguided evolution. Your comment is non-started. 2) Perhaps you would now like to strengthen the grounds of your comment by including only those unseen agents…like a deity, or perhaps some other unknown/unseen agent. If that is the case, then what is required to falsify unguided evolution is only that which cannot be observed. This is to say, the hypothesis cannot be falsified by observation, and therefore, cannot be falsified by science. And as Timaeus pointed out, if it cannot be falsified by science, then it cannot be a part of science. And you, gentlemen, have now made that point succinctly clear. And now to the second part of your comment: “unguided evolution” is an open-ended concept. Who knows what other unguided evolution concept might crop up” This is the second admission in as many sentences that unguided evolution is not falsifiable. Yet, this admission is perceptively different than the first. In the first admission, you simply remove the ability of empirical science to falsify the hypothesis by requiring that the agent be something that we cannot test. But, in this instance you go to the very character of the proponents themselves. Where the first is a methodological inability, the second is more a practical one. You are quite correct to imply that materialism in the guise of science will forever be able to say we just need more time, more experiments, and a brand new speculation to follow. To say that we cannot exhaust our ability to conceive of yet another possibility is to say that we never have to arrive at the point of the discovery. And even more importantly, we never have to question the assumptions we begin with. The fact that these assumptions might be wrong is never put to the test – and therefore, they are not falsifiable. - - - - - - - And there you have it – the hypothesis that evolution is completely unguided is a non-falsifiable hypothesis in the first sense because to falsify it would require a test of the un-testable, and in the second sense because we never have to subject our prior assumptions to a final test – indeed there is no final test. Therefore, as a matter in keeping with the structure of scientific investigation, the hypothesis fails to be science. It is a metaphysical assumption driven by ideology, but it is not science.Upright BiPed
November 13, 2009
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#79 Science cannot tell you whether it is random or guided, for that is a metaphysical question. I thought ID was meant to be the science of identifying if something was guided or not! Of course, I agree that ID is not science. (However, it is possible for science to identify specific hypotheses involving guidance.)Mark Frank
November 12, 2009
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Clive,
Science cannot tell you whether it is random or guided, for that is a metaphysical question.
I think you mean unguided vs guided rather than random vs guided, since natural selection is not a random effect. But that aside, I don't think it is necessarily a metaphysical question. Sure, if a supernatural force directed every mutation (which, btw, was the opinion of one the greatest evolutionary thinkers, and Christian, Sir Ronald A Fisher), then we're in the metaphysical domain. But if there were a frontloaded component of genomes that would kick into action at a pre-specified time or state, then that might be detectable by ordinary empirical means.jitsak
November 12, 2009
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jitsak,
To falsify unguided evolution, one would have to demonstrate guided evolution.
Science cannot tell you whether it is random or guided, for that is a metaphysical question.Clive Hayden
November 12, 2009
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Mark Frank is of course correct. To falsify unguided evolution, one would have to demonstrate guided evolution. What potentially observable mechanisms of evolution guidance are there? Perhaps quantum teleportation of a new gene into an existing genome? That seems like an obvious candidate. But how could it be observed? Any ideas out there?jitsak
November 12, 2009
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#74 One more try. These are two completely different questions: 1) What would falsify unguided evolution? 2) What would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis? The answer to the first is demonstration of guided evolution - nothing else could do it because "unguided evolution" is an open-ended concept. Who knows what other unguided evolution concept might crop up. The answer to the second depends on what you mean by "Darwinian hypothesis". However, all interpretations that I am aware of entail microevolution. Therefore, by simple logic if microevolution is false then all these Darwinian hypotheses are false.Mark Frank
November 12, 2009
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EDIT #73: "The rephrasing [by] Cornell Biology Professor Allen MacNeil was made for one reason only..."Upright BiPed
November 12, 2009
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Berceuse, The rephrasing my Cornell Biology Professor Allen MacNeil was made for one reason only: He could them ignore the actual question so that another question make takes its place - - - - - - The question is not about whether if macro evolution subsumes/depends upon microevolution...that was just an act of obfuscation intended fog the issue beyond all recognition... the question is about the falsification of unguided evolution. DO YOU HEAR THAT MARK FRANK? The premise of Unguided Evolution cannot be falsified as it is currently practiced by materialist ideologues within the academy. This is the issue that Allen MacNeil cannot address. This is the issue that caused him to abandon the conversation nine months ago. This is the issue that caused him to ignore repeated attempts to have him rejoin the conversation. This is the issue that has now caused him to try to change the subject. This is the issue that caused him to feign being insulted in order to escape the conversation, and this is the issue that has lead Mark Frank to repeatedly act like he just can't understand the distinction between questions about the relationship of micro/macro evolution and questions about the falisfication of unguided evolution. - - - - - - Here it is once again for the cheap seats: THE QUESTION: Timaeus: "The issue is, within the working assumption of common descent, what would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis once and for all? What would force a Darwinian to admit that evolution could not have been entirely unguided? I have asked this question over and over again, and never have I spoken to or read a Darwinist who has an answer for it. And being somewhat of a Popperian in philosophy of science (unfashionable, I know, but I was never much for fashion), I would argue that any hypothesis for which this question cannot be answered is not really a scientific hypothesis, but a vague, airy speculation. So, is Darwinian evolution a falsifiable hypothesis, or not? If so, how could it be falsified? If not, why should it be regarded as science?" CHANGE OF TOPIC: ATTEMPT #1 Allen MacNeil: "What empirical evidence would falsify the hypothesis that a combination of variation, inheritance, fecundity, and differential survival and reproduction can produce both microevolution and macroevolution?" CHANGE OF TOPIC: ATTEMPT #2 Allen MAcNeil: "What empirical evidence would verify (i.e. support) or falsify (i.e. undermine) the hypothesis that whales have evolved from a land-dwelling ancestor?" - - - - - Truly...is there anything else to say?Upright BiPed
November 12, 2009
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#72 Correct me if I’m wrong, Upright BiPed, but my understanding of the rephrasing of the question is that it allows that which is disputed (macroevolution) to ride the coattails of that which is not (microevolution). Is that why you object to it? I will be intrigued to see the answer to this. It certainly confuses me. At the end of all this Allen pointed out that any refutation of microevolution is also a refutation of a theory which entails microevolution. I think anything that goes by the description of "Darwinian hypothesis" would include macroevolution is the result of many instances of microevolution. Given this, it absolutely follows that refuting microevolution refutes "the Darwinian hypothesis". And, of course, the process of microevolution has been tested many, many times in the field and in the laboratory.Mark Frank
November 12, 2009
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