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Civil Discourse Not Tolerated by Darwinist

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Jason Rosenhouse has written a blog about Michael Ruse and William Dembski. His complaint against Ruse, among other things, is that Ruse is too cordial, too civil with ID supporters, Dembski especially.

And while I may dislike and disagree with Ruse’s thinking, it is his actions over the last several years that I loathe and detest. I hate the way he has been doing everything in his power to prop up the ID folks. I hate that he persuaded a presitgious university press to publish a book co-edited by William Dembski, which featured four essays defending “Darwinism” that seemed tailor made to make evolution look bad. I hate that he contributes essays to anthologies designed to celebrate ID promoters and that he tells debate audiences that Dembski has made valuable contributions to science. Go here for relevant links and further details.

Rosenhouse hates quite a lot. What Rosenhouse also finds intolerable is that Ruse would even entertain the idea that an atheist Darwinist like Ruse gives any credence whatsoever to the proposition that religion is not the world’s greatest evil:

Michael Ruse has a very bad op-ed in The Guardian. Jerry Coyne and P. Z. Myers have already laid into him (here and here respectively), but why should they have all the fun? Ruse writes:

If you mean someone who agrees that logically there could be a god, but who doesn’t think that the logical possibility is terribly likely, or at least not something that should keep us awake at night, then I guess a lot of us are atheists. But there is certainly a split, a schism, in our ranks. I am not whining (in fact I am rather proud) when I point out that a rather loud group of my fellow atheists, generally today known as the “new atheists”, loathe and detest my thinking.

Amateur hour.

If the new atheists (folks like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett) are making the party line, Rosenhouse is just towing it like a pack mule. But be forewarned, all you young lurkers, because Rosenhouse can’t tolerate nine year old’s either:

A while back I was a counselor at a summer camp, keeping an eye on a group of rowdy nine year olds. One of the kids was taunted relentlessly by the others for his incessant whining. He did not help his cause by answering such taunts with, “I don’t whine!” said in a pathetically whiny tone of voice.

If you have to tell people you are not whining, you’re whining.

Rosenhouse would, not doubt, maintain that he himself is not whining.

Ruse writes:

Second, unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, “What caused God?” as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery.

Indeed, it is an uneducated question that Ruse is right to point out. It is based on the assumption that everything, even supernatural things, need a first cause. Natural things do need a first cause, but I don’t see how we could logically apply natural rules to supernatural things. Yet Dawkins is so steeped in materialism, that I presume he smuggles in material necessities, such as the necessary first cause argument, even when thinking about the immaterial and supernatural. I appreciate that Ruse is trying to understand the argument, while the new atheists and Rosenhouse don’t seem to be, or maybe they are just too dense to understand, or too lost to care, or both.

The rest of his blog is much of the same kind of argument. I would say it’s childish, but that would be an offense to children, for children, in their innocence, have more of a sense of fairness and respect for their fellows than Rosenhouse has. Praise for Michael Ruse for having intellectual integrity instead of a rabid dog in the fight. The response that Rosenhouse has is, I suspect, the result of a poor education.

“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.”

~C.S. Lewis

Although, I have to admit, Rosenhouse is not even clever.

Comments
Allen MacNeil, On your blog you spoke of this thread. You said: "Other people ask me why I generally treat creationists and ID supporters with respect, rather than taking every opportunity to heap scorn and ridicule upon them." And then you go on to say: "Indeed, some commentator’s comments are so insulting that I refuse to respond to them, and I believe that this does not pass unnoticed by readers who are not yet irrationally committed to one side or the other." - - - - - - A couple of points on your first comment: You do not respect your opponents, unless of course you think that 1) ignoring their questions, or 2) misrepresenting their arguments, or 3) high-tailing it when the questions get tough is a measure of respect. For many of us, such actions are not a measure of respect, but are instead the very obvious indications of political maneuver. The fact that you are a highly trained and intelligent man, and yet you still have to resort to such actions (in the name of science) is quite an eye-opener. It is, no doubt, directly related to the weakness of your position. After all, what else could it be related to? Does anyone think these actions by you are a typical part of your daily demeanor? I don't, and I doubt others do. No, it is this conversation itself that forces these actions upon you. It does it to you and to every other person who is faced with these questions from your personal metaphysic perspective. - - - - - - As for your second comment about being insulted. I can assume you had me in mind for this comment given that it is I that you've called out to be ignored. Obviously, all of this falls into place behind the fact that you left a conversation when a most polite request was made of you to answer a simple but important question. No one can read the text from that thread (copied above in #17) and reasonably think for a moment that anyone was being abusive to you. Neither Timaeus (asking the question) nor myself (asking you to return to the thread) said anything insulting to you in any way whatsoever. Of course, you do not want any onlookers to concern themselves with that thread, instead you would like to focus on the change in tone of my comments to you after you walked out on what was an utterly polite conversation - a conversation with difficult implications for your position. So lets add it up: a person who sets himself up as an authority, who is disrespectful to his opponent's arguments, who refuses to answer questions asked of him in the most polite manner possible, then returns to continue his condescending ways as if he is still a credible authority. And to cap it all off, he feigns being insulted if anyone brings it up. Who could have a problem with that?Upright BiPed
November 8, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill, You know very well why some of your comments are admitted and some not, as evidenced by the fact that you know how to edit the ones I haven't allowed to make them less offensive and less of an ad hominem and more of an argument. If you didn't know, what to edit, and you're editing is by chance, then I might believe in evolution and not make a design inference. ;)Clive Hayden
November 8, 2009
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Interesting; apparently civil discourse is not tolerated by the moderator(s) of this website either. Zach Bailey asked in comment #39,
"Why waste your time posting here at all? You do not seem to have a receptive audience."
I posted a response over 24 hours ago, which was held in moderation until early this morning, when it "mysteriously" disappeared completely. I have posted the entire text of my response here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-i-post-comments-on-creationist-and.html but no longer expect any of my comments to appear here. If this one does, please read the comment I have posted above, and ask yourself the following two questions: 1) was my response to Zach Bailey in anyway "intolerant" or "uncivil"? 2) if your answer to question #1 is "no", then why was my response to Zack Bailey deleted? This comment (which should be #41) was posted on Sunday 8 November 2009 at 11:47 EST.Allen_MacNeill
November 8, 2009
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Zach, Receptivity? Your comment would carry more weight except that Mr MacNeil dodges important issues when they are presented to him. By the word "dodge" I include both his track record of willfully ignoring direct questions, as well as his tendency to flank difficult questions by repeatedly answering those that are not asked.Upright BiPed
November 6, 2009
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Allen MacNeill
Furthermore, comments 22 – 26 have all appeared since my response and comments were posted six hours ago, yet they are all here and mine is not.
Why waste your time posting here at all? You do not seem to have a receptive audience.Zach Bailey
November 6, 2009
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StephenB,
Well, said Clive. I do wonder why Darwinists, who believe that your moderating policy can be explained solely by evolutionary processes over which you have no control, should hold you accoutable for it. How exactly does that work?
Thanks StephenB. It doesn't work, it's inconsistent. When someone undercuts the traditional mind/body distinction, as I know you're aware, then they subject their mind to their body, and the same would hold true for everyone if it was true for anyone. This is the fatal flaw in the argument, that any discussion about the evolution of the whole person (and it can only be explained via full-on evolution, or ID, there is no logical or consistent in-between), ultimately ends with the evolution of the brain producing what we think is called the mind, all of it, even the part that tells us that we evolved. And if someone believes this, it is only because they evolved to believe it, and anyone who doesn't evolved not to, so there is no hope of an objective ability of knowledge that exists outside of the whole evolving show, given that the mind emerges from the matter, and the matter is fully an account of the material arranged by evolution. And anyone that cannot logically see the self-referential incoherence in their position, are themselves evolved not to see it, because we're no longer talking about truth in the old sense of being separate and apart from nature and having a vantage point at which to objectively study and know nature, we have made ourselves subject to nature; and whatever we know now comes from nature. You know all this, this is really for the lurkers.Clive Hayden
November 6, 2009
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----Clive Hayden: "What I find amusing about the whole affair is that, by the methodology of explaining all of human existence via evolution, i.e. the brain and all of our mental capacities, that arguments are made against others as if they weren’t just as much the product of evolutionary capacities and outcomes. All thoughts are the “emergence” of a mental pattern which couldn’t have been otherwise by our neurological makeup being developed from the ground up by evolutionary processes. If anyone doesn’t see the self-referential incoherence here, it can only be because you evolved not to see it." Well, said Clive. I do wonder why Darwinists, who believe that your moderating policy can be explained solely by evolutionary processes over which you have no control, should hold you accoutable for it. How exactly does that work?StephenB
November 6, 2009
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Allen MacNeil says: "As Upright Biped seems unable to post anything with actual content, I will henceforth not respond to her/his posts." On the contrary, my posts at 17 and 32 were quite laden with content, as anyone who followed along can see for themselves. And given that my posts were actual documentation of you being belligerent, petty, and non responsive to well-presented challenges, you’ll have to forgive me for being unmoved by your decision to continue not responding.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2009
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While Clive might not say this, I would say that most Darwinists who participate in the public policy debates on the subject have shown themselves to be against civil discourse on the topic. The point is (a) there is a public debate on this, whether or not there is a debate within evolutionary biology, (b) the public is not overwhelmingly convinced, even if the evolutionary biologists are, (c) the Darwinists involved don't care for a civil discussion on the matter, and instead would rather remove public and civil discourse altogether in favor for a one-sided discourse, or a discourse in which the possible sides are dictated by them. Often it is said, "shouldn't science policy be left to the scientists?" To this I would answer, "should we leave education (and other public interactions) of religion to theologians?" The answer in both cases is no. It is a public policy, and the public has every right to be a part of the conversation.johnnyb
November 5, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill @ 4
Is this thread somehow intended to show that evolutionary biologists in general are intolerant of civil discourse? If so, at what level would one accept this hypothesis? When one has shown, via empirical observation, that greater than 95% (i.e. alpha < 0.05) of evolutionary biologists are intolerant of civil discourse? How is this "observation" not simply an example of anecdotal evidence?
Clive has already trounced this, but I want to address it in terms you can understand. It doesn't matter if 20%, 50%, or 99% of evolutionary biologists are Albert Schweitzers - if the leaders are a bunch of rude jerks who prove the man-decended-from-poo-flinging-apes hypothesis every time they write or speak, then the anecdote in question is quite applicable. Just like when you find the vast majority of the leadership of a movement are Nazi sympathyzers, former KKK members, Stalinists, Scientologists, John Birchers, or David Icke Lizard People Society members.angryoldfatman
November 5, 2009
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As Upright Biped seems unable to post anything with actual content, I will henceforth not respond to her/his posts.Allen_MacNeill
November 5, 2009
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#19 "The H1N1 epidemic that so recently swept through my family has for the moment abated..." Allen is there someone you are hoping to fool by this post? Today is November 5th. The conversation which you dropped out on with Timaeus took place on FEBRUARY 19th. You then dodged repeated requests to continue the conversation for over two full weeks thereafter - even though you were back happily posting on this forum. Sorry Skippy, but the facts are the facts. - - - - - As for your highly-conditional response, I am certain that its just a wee bit too late for Timaeus, but then again, he might jump back in if he happens to notice. - - - - - By the way Allen: "This one is actually surprisingly easy, once one lays out the parameters of the question." Yes I can tell. You just posted 10,500 characters on just how easy it is, with links to several thousand more characters. And in all of it, you failed to actually answer the question. Instead you carpet-bombed the issue and simply reasserted your belief. Nice try though. "I conclude that current microevolutionary theory is indeed up to the task of explaining the patterns of adaptation/exaptation observed in natural populations of living organisms." …well gee thanks.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2009
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Der Wood, Good question---why say Darwinism and not evolution? Because I don’t mean evolution---which is evidence---evidence of design---for the only evolution we can actually observe and study is human technology which occurs by design. Darwinism, on the other hand, refers to Darwin’s hypothesis which was meant to account for biological evolution. That hypothesis, as Jacques Monod explained, explains everything by chance and necessity sans design. There is much confusion out there and a real need to distinguish between the fact and the hypothesis. Evidence for evolution is NOT evidence for Darwinism.Rude
November 5, 2009
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My point in the thread was to show a Darwinist blogger who actually seems to pride himself against civil discourse. Compared, of course, with a Darwinist (Michael Ruse) who does engage in civil discourse, but is actually met with opposition from his Darwinist colleagues, such as Daniel Dennett and Jason Rosenhouse. What I find amusing about the whole affair is that, by the methodology of explaining all of human existence via evolution, i.e. the brain and all of our mental capacities, that arguments are made against others as if they weren't just as much the product of evolutionary capacities and outcomes. All thoughts are the "emergence" of a mental pattern which couldn't have been otherwise by our neurological makeup being developed from the ground up by evolutionary processes. If anyone doesn't see the self-referential incoherence here, it can only be because you evolved not to see it. (I don't for a second believe this, but those who do must awaken to its incoherence at some point.)Clive Hayden
November 5, 2009
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Rude - What IS 'Darwinism'? More specifically, what is it supposed to mean when YOU use the term?derwood
November 5, 2009
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"jerry wrote: “He is also fairly stupid…. because of his short sidedness. ” I believe the phrase is “shortsightedness.”" Thank you. I always like being corrected. Hopefully, I remember better the next time.jerry
November 5, 2009
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Furthermore, comments 22 - 26 have all appeared since my response and comments were posted six hours ago, yet they are all here and mine is not.Allen_MacNeill
November 5, 2009
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Why would a Darwinist ask that our anecdotes not be anecdotal when Darwinism has never been anything but anecdotal. Anyway perhaps the question to ask here is: Who has power? Maybe what some want to say is that were ID to control the show then, human nature being what it is, ID would shut down dissent. But that is a hypothetical presumption. The fact of the matter is that the Darwinists have the power now, and they most certainly do shut down dissent. The excuse is that ID isn’t science, that it isn't falsifiable, or that it has been falsified. Whatever the excuse the fact is that ID is shut out a priori.Rude
November 5, 2009
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Rude writes: "Whatever the point of this thread, it is my experience that secular materialists in general and evolutionary biologists in particular tend to be intolerant of civil discourse." How interesting - my take is the exact opposite. I suppose it all depends on ones criteria and POV.derwood
November 5, 2009
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Whatever the point of this thread, it is my experience that secular materialists in general and evolutionary biologists in particular tend to be intolerant of civil discourse. Let us not forget that it is in the academy, not out amid the unwashed masses, that alternative views are no longer heard but rather shouted down. When the first hostages were released by the Iranian terrorists, one was invited to speak at my university. The audience was palpably hostile: How dare anyone speak who might not support our far left agenda! And so not very far into the speech a posse of student "activists" rushed up front with a fuel-soaked, yellow bed sheet all aflame shouting, “Here’s your yellow ribbon!” Now if that had been perpetrated by a group of Mormon students or some “astroturf” Christian group, do you think anything would have been done about it? Well, we weren’t so lucky, and so nothing was done. It reminds me of that long ago disappointment that the assassin had not been a right-winger but rather “a silly little communist.”Rude
November 5, 2009
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jerry wrote: "He is also fairly stupid.... because of his short sidedness. " I believe the phrase is "shortsightedness."derwood
November 5, 2009
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Mark Frank: Hugh Ross has developed a "Old Earth" Creation Model which he compares against all other models (Evolution, Young Earth etc..). Of course the model is successful because not only does it explain existing evidence better than any other model but it also explains (predicts?) the evidence that is currently being discovered better than any other model: Here is a video: "Creation as Science" - Hugh Ross - A Testable Creation Model - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1680357583183645446 This summary lists just 20 of the numerous successful predictions made by the Reasons To Believe model. 1. transcendent creation event 2. cosmic fine-tuning 3. fine-tuning of the earth's, solar system's, and Milky Way Galaxy's characteristics 4. rapidity of life's origin 5. lack of inorganic kerogen 6. extreme biomolecular complexity 7. Cambrian explosion 8. missing horizontal branches in the fossil record 9. placement and frequency of "transitional forms" in the fossil record 10. fossil record reversal 11. frequency and extent of mass extinctions 12. recovery from mass extinctions 13. duration of time windows for different species 14. frequency, extent, and repetition of symbiosis 15. frequency, extent, and repetition of altruism 16. speciation and extinction rates 17. recent origin of humanity 18. huge biodeposits 19. Genesis' perfect fit with the fossil record 20. molecular clock rates http://www.reasons.org/rtbs-creation-model/tcm-big-bang/summary-reasons-believes-testable-creation-modelbornagain77
November 5, 2009
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How is it "ducking" and "running for cover" when I post long responses that aren't released from moderation for hours, days, and sometimes longer? It's very frustrating to work on a long, detailed response, and then watch it linger in "moderation hell", while being accused of not responding. Or is this actually the unspoken intent of the moderators - to give the impression of non-response by preventing timely responses? This comment was submitted on Thursday 5 November at 07:29 EST; how long did it take to appear here?Allen_MacNeill
November 5, 2009
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Clive I remember when Allen ducked and ran for cover too from Timaeus. In every debate on the internet your opponents appear to be rude, full of irrelevant criticism, and unwilling or unable to listen to your point of view which, of course, you present in a polite but logically compelling fashion. It comes with the medium. It is really hard to avoid. If I said what I really thought about some of the contributions here then I would be banned from this debate in about 5 minutes and also learn nothing in the process. Some of the biggest problems I come across are: * Being drawn into the same argument a hundred times. You know the moves that everyone is going to make - why do it again? * Being drawn into an argument where you have so little in common that nothing is learned by either side. It becomes the equivalent of a shouting match. * Being confronted with a 1000 words plus references when you only have 10 minutes to respond. How do you withdraw without appearing to be beaten? * Avoiding the desire to have the last word. No one ever finishes by saying "Oh I see - I was quite wrong!" I can't speak for Allen but I guess some of the above were part of his unwillingness to be drawn into the debate with Timeaus. I note that it began by him asking for Timeaus for an experiment or evidence relating to a teleological explanation. In reply Timeaus did not attempt to provide such an experiment or evidence but instead asked for the equivalent for "Darwinian evolution".Mark Frank
November 5, 2009
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The H1N1 epidemic that so recently swept through my family has for the moment abated (I seem to be resistant, having been exposed in the late 1950s and early 1970s...knock on wood), and so here is my response Re Timaeus:
What experiment could unambiguously eliminate the Darwinian hypothesis (macroevolution caused by mutations plus natural selection etc.)?
Let me rephrase this: What empirical (i.e. observational) evidence would falsify the hypothesis that a combination of variation, inheritance, fecundity, and differential survival and reproduction (the four prerequisites of biological evolution) can produce both microevolution (i.e. changes in the frequencies of identifiable genotypes and phenotypes in discrete populations) and macroevolution (i.e. divergence of single panmictic populations into two or more reproductively isolated populations)? This one is actually surprisingly easy, once one lays out the parameters of the question. As in the case of all scientific tests of hypotheses, one would simply have to show that at least one of the foregoing prerequisites for micro- and/or macroevolution were not met (and especially that they were inadequate to produce the observable patterns of adaptation and diversification in nature) to confidently falsify the evolutionary hypothesis. So, here goes: 1) Variation: Is there sufficient genetic and phenotypic variation to allow for the production of all of the variants observed in nature? Yes; see http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html Indeed, not only is there sufficient variation to produce all of the forms observed in biology, there is way to much. The interesting question is not "can you get here from there", but rather "why don't the 'engines of variation' result in the dissolution of coherence in natural populations? The answer is in # 4 (below) 2) Inheritance: Are the known mechanisms of genetic and phenotypic inheritance sufficient to explain the transmission of all of the relevant biological traits that are proposed to have evolved? Yes; see any introductory genetics textbook (I recommend Genetics: From Genes to Genomes, by Hartwell et al: http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Genes-Genomes-Leland-Hartwell/dp/0073227382/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257418292&sr=8-8 ) 3) Fecundity: Are the observed rates of reproduction and mortality consistent with the Malthusian hypothesis that not all individuals who are born can live long enough to reproduce? Yes; see any introductory textbook on population biology (I recommend Introduction to Population Biology, by Dick Neal: http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Population-Biology-Dick-Neal/dp/0521825377/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257418580&sr=1-2 ) 4) Differential survival and reproduction (demography): Are the observed rates of differential survival and reproduction in natural populations sufficient to demonstrate the demographic shifts now used to characterize evolution? Yes: see any introductory textbook on evolutionary biology (I recommend Evolutionary Analysis, 4th Edition, by Freeman & Herron: http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Analysis-Scott-Freeman/dp/0132275848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257418842&sr=1-1 ) Caveat: All of the references cited above require fairly considerable mathematical skills (equivalent to at least that required to do engineering physics at the university level). As J. B. S. Haldane first noted in the 1930s, modern evolutionary biology is essentially a branch of applied mathematics Summary: On the basis of the foregoing, I conclude that current microevolutionary theory is indeed up to the task of explaining the patterns of adaptation/exaptation observed in natural populations of living organisms. Furthermore, it is becoming clear that not only is there sufficient variational resources to allow for such evolution, there is very nearly too much: without natural selection constantly winnowing down the amount of variation that arises in natural populations, such populations would almost inevitably tend to disintegrate into the kind of genotypic and phenotypic incoherence that characterizes the products of artificial breeding (e.g. animals and plants that are incapable of surviving and/or reproducing without human intervention, or which simply go extinct as the result of genetic collapse).
If one hypothetical evolutionary pathway from land mammals to whales is falsified, the Darwinists just come up with another one. And they hang on to that one until fossil evidence or genetic evidence or radioactive dating evidence or whatnot makes that one impossible. Then they come up with another one.
This is exactly what the scientific method requires: if evidence is discovered that falsifies an hypothesis, that hypothesis must necessarily be changed to accomodate that evidence. This is why science (unlike religion and some branches of metaphysics) is constantly changing in response to new discoveries. Citing this as an objection to evolutionary theory simply betrays a complete misunderstanding on the part of Timaeus on what science is about and how scientists do science. If the various theories of evolutionary biology were not modified to integrate new findings, they would not be science at all, but just another form of dogma. Evolutionary biology has changed in many significant ways over the past 150 years; such change is a testimony to its quality as a natural science, grounded in empirical investigation.
A while ago it was a hippo-like animal that was the supposed ancestor of the whale; now it’s a wolf-like one.
Actually, Timaeus has this exactly backwards. Prior to the advent of comparative genomics, the evolutionary phylogeny of the order Cetacea was based primarily on shared derived anatomical characteristics (especially differences in teeth and skeletal morphology). However, with new data about the underlying genomics of the Cetacea, it is now clear that their closest living relatives are the members of the order Artiodactyla (also known as the "even-toed ungulates"). Furthermore, among the Artiodactyla, the closest clade to the Cetacea is indeed the hippos (family Hippopotamidae). Interestingly, this conclusion rests mostly on genetic sequences that are not adaptive, since such sequences tend to be conserved as a result of natural selection, and are therefore of doubtful utility in reconstructing evolutionary phylogenies.
Never do Darwinists entertain for a moment the possibility that whales *could not* have evolved by entirely naturalistic means from land mammals.
This is extraordinarily difficult to do, as proving a negative is virtually impossible using standard logical arguments. Instead, what all scientists do is to formulate empirically testable hypotheses that can be empirically falsified, and then test them using field and laboratory observations and experiments. That’s what you do when you do science; when ID supporters start to do this (and not until then), rather than engage in untested speculation, their published results will be integrated into the body of scientific theory. This was Phillip Johnson’s position on how ID could eventually gain scientific credibility. Unfortunately for ID, virtually no one has taken Johnson’s advice.
For to entertain that possibility would mean to entertain the possibility that whales may have been specially engineered, and that conclusion, even if it is derived entirely from biological data and not at all from any religious teaching, the Darwinists will simply not allow.
Again, this is a “diagnosis by exclusion”, which again is virtually impossible using standard investigative methods. Given the way the empirical sciences work, it is quite literally impossible to conclude that any generalized phenomenon can’t happen, except when the phenomenon under investigation has been shown to be demonstrably different than predicted by the hypothesis being tested. This means that until all possible avenues of investigation have been exhausted, the generalizations which have been formulated to guide those investigations are still provisionally acceptable. That this is still the case with evolutionary biology is demonstrated by the increasing volume of empirical results published in the scientific literature. If evolutionary theory had been exhaustively tested and found inadequate, then it would have slowly run out of hypotheses to test. Exactly the opposite has happened: there is now more research being published in evolutionary biology than ever before in the history of science. Furthermore, not only are the underlying concepts of evolutionary biology not fading away, they are being applied to fields of intellectual endeavor formerly thought beyond the scope of biology: economics, psychology, sociology, and even art, literature, and cuisine.
Or am I wrong? Can you give me an example of a “killer observation” or “killer experiment” that would falsify Darwinism completely?
Yes; the sudden appearance of the spontaneous origin of a massively coordinated set of integrated genetic code that produces an entirely new suite of adaptive phenotypic characteristics, without any of the currently known mechanisms of genotypic and phenotypic variation (again, see http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2007/10/rm-ns-creationist-and-id-strawman.html for a comprehensive list of such mechanisms). Nothing like this has so far been published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. If and when it is, rest assured that the person (or, more likely, research group) who publishes it will be a shoe-in for the Crafoord Prize, or even a “modified” Nobel (such as the 1973 prize awarded to the founders of evolutionary ethology, Konrad Lorenz, Niko Tinbergen, and Karl von Frisch).
The issue is, within the working assumption of common descent, what would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis once and for all? What would force a Darwinian to admit that evolution could not have been entirely unguided?
An empirical observation of the sudden appearance of the spontaneous origin of a massively coordinated set of integrated genetic code that produces an entirely new suite of adaptive phenotypic characteristics, without any of the currently known mechanisms of genotypic and phenotypic variation. This hasn’t been published yet, and so until it is (if it ever is) the “design hypothesis” remains an untested speculation.
I have asked this question over and over again, and never have I spoken to or read a Darwinist who has an answer for it.
Now you have.
[B]eing somewhat of a Popperian in philosophy of science…,I would argue that any hypothesis for which this question cannot be answered is not really a scientific hypothesis, but a vague, airy speculation.
As a Popperian (and Kuhnian) in the philosophy of science myself, I entirely agree: demonstrate for me exactly how one would empirically falsify the “design hypothesis” and then do so using empirical methods. Then get packed for your trip to Sweden; the Crafoord Prize is given for biology once every four years, but if you’re young (and your published results are sufficiently convincing), I’m sure you’ll make the trip!
So, is Darwinian evolution a falsifiable hypothesis, or not?
Yes; evolutionary biologists are trying to falsify their hypotheses every time they go into the field or the lab. And they are succeeding; if they weren’t, it wouldn’t be necessary to constantly update the textbooks.
If so, how could it be falsified?
Not by asserting that “you can’t get here from there” (i.e. by asserting that IC and CSI cannot come about by natural mechanisms), but rather by showing empirically that “you can get here from there”, but only by means of a mechanism that is not emcompassed within the currently recognized mechanisms of evolutionary change. That’s how evo-devo and serial endosymbiosis became integrated into evolutionary theory.
If not, why should it be regarded as science?
It is regarded as a science, not only by the overwhelming majority of scientists worldwide, but also by the numerous public and private agencies that fund the ongoing research upon which the evolving science of evolutionary biology is based. Believe me, if those agencies thought that evolutionary biologists were somehow engaged in a scam to fleece them without producing results, such funding would immediately and permanently cease. There are no more skeptical inquirers than the people who award grants to evolutionary biologists. If they continue to do so (and they do, at ever-increasing rates in a rapidly expanding group of fields of investigation), it should stand to reason that they 1) believe that such research is in fact productive, and 2) that the people doing such research know what they’re talking about.Allen_MacNeill
November 5, 2009
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I remember when Allen ducked and ran for cover too from Timaeus.Clive Hayden
November 4, 2009
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Allen, How flakey and disingenuous can you be? “Is this thread somehow intended to show that evolutionary biologists in general are intolerant of civil discourse?” (with ID proponents) Come on. Even to pretend that evolutionary biologists offer ID a fair hearing is a full load of crap and you know it. And please, save us the junket to Allenland where you have Behe in for the day. That tactic rates right up there with the 3/5th clause, and has the same net effect. And don’t pretend that you yourself are one iota any different when it comes to civil discourse. Example (five recent posts of pointless mockery right in a row):
Let me see if I get this straight: the Intelligent Designer put all that non-coding DNA into the genomes of every eukaryote in order to make it possible for a few restricted clades of nocturnal mice to be able to see better in the dark, right? Or, the Intelligent Designer put all of that non-coding DNA in … …right? And the Intelligent Designer did this by designing DNA polymerase billions of years ago so that it would… …right? And the Intelligent Designer also crafted some of the non-coding sequences to look exactly like… …right? Holy Mice Eyes, Batman! Wait, those would be Fledermice, wouldn’t they, and the Intelligent Designer crafted the pinnae… …right? Just out of curiosity, does anyone here want to hazard a guess… And, while we’re at it, stephenB (I know you’re out there), were the biologists who discovered… Sorry, I forgot: the Intelligent Designer works in mysterious ways, and always covers His tracks so that there is never a scrap of empirical evidence that can unambiguously reveal His intervention in nature. After all, if He did, the rest of us would eventually figure out that He cared about some nocturnal mice so much that He arranged the last few billion years of evolution of the eukaryotic genome just for them.
And don’t give us any crap that biology is a tough business, and you were just asking the tough questions. It has long been noted that when you square off with someone of your own level of training you cut and run when the questions get tough. Example: Allen to Timaeus:
“That is, it’s existence is clearly and unambiguously the result of a teleological process, the goal of which was the bringing into existence of the object or process. How would one devise a controlled experiment to do this? Or, if you prefer, what kind of empirical evidence would one collect that would unambiguously eliminate either a non-teleological hypothesis? And please, no arguments by analogy (i.e. it looks purposeful, ergo it is purposeful). Such arguments are not logically compelling.
Timaeus to Allen:
As for your last question, exactly the same question can be addressed to Darwinists. What experiment could unambiguously eliminate the Darwinian hypothesis (macroevolution caused by mutations plus natural selection etc.)? If one hypothetical evolutionary pathway from land mammals to whales is falsified, the Darwinists just come up with another one. And they hang on to that one until fossil evidence or genetic evidence or radioactive dating evidence or whatnot makes that one impossible. Then they come up with another one. A while ago it was a hippo-like animal that was the supposed ancestor of the whale; now it’s a wolf-like one. Five years from now it may be a rodent-like one. Never do Darwinists entertain for a moment the possibility that whales *could not* have evolved by entirely naturalistic means from land mammals. For to entertain that possibility would mean to entertain the possibility that whales may have been specially engineered, and that conclusion, even if it is derived entirely from biological data and not at all from any religious teaching, the Darwinists will simply not allow. Or am I wrong? Can you give me an example of a “killer observation” or “killer experiment” that would falsify Darwinism completely? And please don’t use “the Cambrian rabbit ploy”. That tired old Cambrian rabbit, whose ears are getting sore from being pulled out of the hat so many times by Darwinists, would indeed falsify common descent. But many ID proponents accept common descent, e.g., Behe, Denton, and they do not expect to find a Cambrian rabbit. Common descent is not the point in debate between ID proper and Darwinism. The issue is, within the working assumption of common descent, what would falsify the Darwinian hypothesis once and for all? What would force a Darwinian to admit that evolution could not have been entirely unguided? I have asked this question over and over again, and never have I spoken to or read a Darwinist who has an answer for it. And being somewhat of a Popperian in philosophy of science (unfashionable, I know, but I was never much for fashion), I would argue that any hypothesis for which this question cannot be answered is not really a scientific hypothesis, but a vague, airy speculation. So, is Darwinian evolution a falsifiable hypothesis, or not? If so, how could it be falsified? If not, why should it be regarded as science?
Allen to Timaeus”
Sorry, can’t post now. Everyone in my family…(sick)
…several days later… Upright to MacNeil
Mr MacNeill, would you now consider returning to the conversation you were having with Timaeus. https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-305327
Result: MacNeil leaves thread. Timaeus to Biped and MacNeil
I’d be glad to continue that conversation with Allen MacNeill. Dr. MacNeill discontinued that conversation, I thought temporarily, because everyone in his family had caught a flu bug or something. But he never returned to it. If he wishes to, I’m ready, and eager for a reply to my last post on that other thread.
Result: MacNeil leaves thread BiPed to MacNeil
Mr MacNeill, This will now be the fourth time I’ve posted this request to you on threads that you are currently involved in. If there is no response this time, I will assume that you do not intend on responding and draw whatever conclusions are appropriate. I am requesting that you please return to the conversation you were having with Timaeus, prior to your untimely flu outbreak. He has alreasdy indicated he is prepared to continue. The conversation is HERE
Jerry then says:
Upright BiPed, You are witnessing the MacNeill gallop as he rushes in and splays the environment with a ray of rhetoric and then rides off.
Result: MacNeil leaves thread. - - - - - - - - - Allen is ignoring tough questions part of the process of science in which you say you wish to defend? Gimme a break.Upright BiPed
November 4, 2009
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Sorry, that was at Paul #9Leslie
November 4, 2009
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Maybe I'm just ignorant here, and I'd be glad to be corrected if I am, but why wouldn't astrology be a scientific theory? I'm not saying it's a good one by any means. I just mean, it's a theory about the way the universe works. You could devise tests to see if it is true or false, I would think. I guess it doesn't fit the NAS definition, but why should I give a crap how they decide to define a word? Are they the gate keepers of the English language? It seems odd to me for skeptics of ID to jump on comparing ID to astrology based upon semantics.Leslie
November 4, 2009
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And let me add that anything which is self-existent and requires no cause must also be eternal.avocationist
November 4, 2009
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