Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Critics agree with Dembski, the No Free Lunch theorem applies to evolution

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We’ve all noticed the ID critics all speak outside of their realm of expertise. Biologists expound their expert opinions on mathematics, mathematicians make claims about computer science, and computer scientists think they know it all when it comes to evolution.

So, I thought, what happens if I only listen to their opinions in their actual realms of expertise?

Here’s a mathematician, MarkCC, author of the blog “Good Math, Bad Math.”

What’s his expertise? Math. What does he say about Dembski’s mathematics?

“he’s actually a decent mathematician”

What is not his expertise? Computer science. What does he say in the domain of computer science?

“But his only argument for making those modifications have nothing to do with evolution: he’s carefully picking search spaces[competitive agent (co-evolutionary) algorithms] that have the properties he want, even though they have fundamentally different properties from evolution.” [formatting mine]

Here MarkCC misunderstands the point of said paper, which is to define the how fitness of agents in co-evolutionary algorithms should be measured in general, regardless of the search space. (As an aside, he also doesn’t realize the triangle inequality can apply to evolutionary scenarios as well: B outbreeds and eliminates A, C outbreeds and eliminates B; but A could have outbred C given the chance.)

But, MarkCC is excused since both of these issues are outside of his realm of expertise.

Alright, let’s look at what the computer science experts have to say, namely Wolpert. Wolpert responds to Dembski’s earlier work on the NFL, which didn’t address co-evolution.

Let’s remind ourselves that Wolpert’s expertise lies in algorithms, not in biology. Does he detect any problem with Dembski’s understanding of the NFLT? Well, if Wolpert does, he says nothing. Instead, the supposed problem is:

“…throughout there is a marked elision of the formal details of the biological processes under consideration. Perhaps the most glaring example of this is that neo-Darwinian evolution of ecosystems does not involve a set of genomes all searching the same, fixed fitness function, the situation considered by the NFL theorems. Rather it is a co-evolutionary process.” [formatting mine]

So, within Wolpert’s domain of expertise he detects no problem with Dembski’s work, just like MarkCC, or at least is silent. Wolpert’s only complaint is outside his field, whether Dembski correctly formalizes evolutionary processes within his argument, not that Wolpert has much sympathy for Darwinists either.*  He does indicate that he believes the NFL does not apply to co-evolution**:

“Roughly speaking, as each genome changes from one generation to the next, it modifies the surfaces that the other genomes are searching. And recent results indicate that NFL results do not hold in co-evolution.

Now for the punch line: but what happens when Wolpert does examine the evolutionary details and whether the NFL applies to them?

“In general in biological coevolution scenarios (e.g., evolutionary game theory), there is no notion of a champion being produced by the search and subsequently pitted against an antagonist in a “bake-off”. Accordingly, there is no particular signifcance to results for C’s that depend on f.

This means that so long as we make the approximation, reasonable in real biological systems, that x’s are never revisited, all of the requirements of Ex. 1 are met. This means that NFL applies.” [formatting mine]

It is commonly noted that when smart people achieve expertise in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied.

The ID debates are no exception.

—————

* “First, biologists in particular and scientists in general are horribly confused defenders of their field. When responding to attacks from non-scientists, rather than attempt the rigor that the geometry of induction and similar bodies of statistics provide, they fall back on Popperian incantations, trying to browbeat their opponents into acceding to the homily that if one follows certain magic rituals—the vaunted “scientific method”—then one is rewarded with The Truth. No mathematically precise derivation of these rituals from first principles is provided. The “scientific method” is treated as a first-category topic, opening it up to all kinds of attack. In particular, in defending neo-Darwinism, no admission is allowed that different scientific disciplines simply cannot reach the same level of certainty in their conclusions due to intrinsic differences in the accessibility of the domains they study.”

** From the comments regarding how exactly the NFL applies to co-evolution:

What Wolpert is saying here is that co-evolution can produce fitter competitors, but it still cannot produce complex functionality:

“For example, say the problem is to design a value y that
maximizes a provided function g(y), e.g., design a biological
organ that can function well as an optical sensor. Then, even
if we are in the general coevolutionary scenario of interacting
populations, we can still cast the problem as a special case
of Example 1….
Due to the fact that they’re a special case of Example 1, the
NFL theorems hold in such scenarios. The extra details of the
dynamics introduced by the general biological coevolutionary
process do not affect the validity of those theorems, which is
independent of such details.”

However, it can possibly produce a better survivor:

“On the other hand, say the problem is to design an organism that is likely to avoid extinction (i.e., have a non-zero
population frequency) in the years after a major change to the
ecosystem. More precisely, say that our problem is to design
that organism, and then, after we’re done its ecosystem is
subjected to that change, a change we know nothing about a
priori. For this problem the coevolution scenario is a variant of
self-play; the “years after the major change to the ecosystem”
constitute the “subsequent game against an antagonist”. Now
it may be quite appropriate to choose a C that depends directly
on f. In this situation NFL may not hold.”

Note that this is consistent with ID’s claim that evolution cannot produce complex functionality.

Comments
Hi Jack: Thanks for your thought. I have promoted to the level of a post. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 24, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
They are models being actively tested against actual data as we speak.
Puhleeze. You called "frost" self-replicating and also said you had written simulations of evolution, except you presumed particular mutations instead of modelling for mutations at random locations on the genome, and assumed they would replicate and become fixed instead of selected against. You keep banging on about self-replicating models as if you had any credibility.
DrBot’s point, of course, is that to raise the OOL as an argument against Darwinian evolution (the subject of the OP) doesn’t make sense. Darwinian evolution isn’t an OOL theory.
Dr. Bot's error, and yours, is to presume OOL as a given prerequisite for Darwinian Evolution, and yet it is recognized that random chance does not provide probabalistic opportunity for evolution to occur. Here is Eugene V Koonin proposing a 'many-worlds' end-run around exactly that problem: The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of life
A crucial aspect of the framework developed here is brought about by a disturbing (almost nightmarish) but inevitable question: in the infinitely redundant world of MWO, why is biological evolution, and in particular, Darwinian selection relevant at all? Is it not possible for any, even the highest degree of complexity to emerge by chance? The answer is "yes" but the question misses the point. Under the MWO model, emergence of an infinite number of complex biotas by chance is inevitable but these would be vastly less common than those that evolved by the scenario that includes the switch from chance/anthropic selection to biological evolution. The onset of biological evolution canalizes the historical process by reducing the number of available trajectories to the relatively few robust ones that are compatible with the Darwinian mode of evolution of complex systems (Fig. 3). This leads to a much greater rate of change than achievable by chance such that, as soon as there is an opportunity for biological evolution to take off, anthropic selection is relegated to a secondary role in the history of life. (p. 7) The real question is not whether or not anthropic selection is important (to me, there is no doubt whatever) but where is the transition between it and biological evolution, the threshold of complexity where Darwinian selection becomes possible (see Fig. 1 in this paper). In this regard, one certainly may "hope" that the threshold is (considerably?) below the level of complexity associated with a coupled system of translation and replication (again, see Fig. 1) but so far there is no strong evidence or even a compelling model of biological evolution occurring at this stage. (p. 18) In other words, even in this toy model that assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region is P .lt. 10**-1018. Obviously, this version of the breakthrough stage can be considered only in the context of a universe with an infinite (or, in the very least, extremely vast) number of O-regions. (p. 19)
You can blithely waive your "models" and dismiss OOL as someone else's problem, but that just illustrates the fact that Darwinian evolution is stuck on a hypothetical island of function with no probablistic means of escape.Charles
August 23, 2011
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Works for me. They are few and far between who are both famous and humble. Having strong opinions is not really so bad, it's being stuck to them in the face of opposing evidence that is the problem. That's what made the situation with Anthony Flew so remarkable.Jack Golightly
August 23, 2011
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On the contrary, the challenge of blind search is central.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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"Evolutionary" search? Talk about question begging.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Yes, MCC takes issue with Dembski's premise that the NFL applies to evolution, which I already pointed out. However, MCC is not qualified to speak on this area. And yes, Wolpert claims that co-evolution may add something new to the picture that invalidates Dembski's argument, but when we look at Wolpert's actual peer reviewed paper we see the claim is empty.Eric Holloway
August 23, 2011
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Also, I noticed the link to Wolpert's co-evolution paper was dead, so I updated it. If you were looking for his paper it's there now.Eric Holloway
August 23, 2011
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Yes, that point is a bit confusing, which is why I originally left it out, but I've included it now for a fuller explanation. What Wolpert is saying here is that co-evolution can produce fitter competitors, but it still cannot produce complex functionality: "For example, say the problem is to design a value y that maximizes a provided function g(y), e.g., design a biological organ that can function well as an optical sensor. Then, even if we are in the general coevolutionary scenario of interacting populations, we can still cast the problem as a special case of Example 1.... Due to the fact that they’re a special case of Example 1, the NFL theorems hold in such scenarios. The extra details of the dynamics introduced by the general biological coevolutionary process do not affect the validity of those theorems, which is independent of such details." However, it can possibly produce a better survivor: "On the other hand, say the problem is to design an organism that is likely to avoid extinction (i.e., have a non-zero population frequency) in the years after a major change to the ecosystem. More precisely, say that our problem is to design that organism, and then, after we’re done its ecosystem is subjected to that change, a change we know nothing about a priori. For this problem the coevolution scenario is a variant of self-play; the “years after the major change to the ecosystem” constitute the “subsequent game against an antagonist”. Now it may be quite appropriate to choose a C that depends directly on f. In this situation NFL may not hold." Note that this is consistent with ID's claim that evolution cannot produce complex functionality.Eric Holloway
August 23, 2011
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My point is simple: If the only "island" is getting to a Darwinian-capable organism in the first place, than that isn't a problem for evolutionary search, it's a problem for OOL. And if your complaint is about OOL, not with evolutionary search, then NFL is irrelevant!Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Right, myth-making while wearing lab coats is still myth-making.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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I forgot to add, the search resources of our solar system or the whole observed cosmos, are insufficient to scan through enough of just 500 or 1,000 bits worth of explicit or implicit info storage capacity that unrepresentative, functionally specific arrangements can be plausibly discovered by chance or by chance and necessity without intelligent direction. We directly, observationally know that FSCI is a product of intelligence, routinely so. Your evidence that such is credibly produced by blind chance and necessity is? You may speculate or assume or tell just-so stories to heart's content, absent empirical observational basis, this is materialist myth-making, not science. Myth-making while wearing lab coats is not science.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Nope, as was already shown in previous threads, once you have multipart code based complex integrated functionality, where most of the ways for the parts to be joined together hap-hazardly will be non functional, the challenge is not whether one can have a tree shaped island. the problem is that most code-capable arrangements will be gibberish, and most arrangements of the parts that are possible will be non functional. In addition, we know that not only the first body plan is a challenge here, but body plan level random changes [aka mutations] -- the ones that occur early in embryological development from the zygote or the like, are overwhelmingly likely to be fatal. IN SHORT THE REAL BURDEN OF PROOF IS BEING IMPROPERLY REVERSED. It is YOU who need to show empirically that a unicellular form, through incremental changes, can become the equivalent of a worm or a sea urchin or a crab etc. Absent that, we have every good reason to conclude that this is yet another just so story in the teeth of the actual observations on the nature of complex integrated systems, to fit into a preconceived Lewontinian a priori scheme. And so, kindly explain what your observational data base is for the notion that through incremental changes to a unicellular life form, rewarded through trial and error, we can evolve body multicellular plans. While you are at it, show how such a unicellular life form can arise in a warm little pond, or a volcanic vent or whatever place you please. With Venter's work, we already have proof of concept that design can work to create such entities, and we already know that designers can manipulate genomes. The day when just so stories could be circulated and swallowed as though they are what MUST have happened, is over. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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You are right- it does say quite a bit but none of it has any scientific merit. BTW I infer designfor the OoL not only because there isn't any feasible alternative but due to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. Darwinian evolution (including neo-darwinism) cannot be tested. It relies on two things- our ignorance and eons of time. It relies on our ignorance such that imagination fills the gap evidence usually occupies. And eons of time because, well, that is the whole point- given enough time the impossible becomes probable (nonsense). As for letting "evolution" take over, what does that even mean? Was it a targeted search evolution? Most likely as no one would infer some designer went through all the trouble of getting everything just right for living organisms and just left it to go on a blind search for things that don't exist. So without saying something about the OoL you cannot say all genetic changes are due to blind, undirected chemical processes. Meaning Darwinism and neo-darwinism are just glossy, unscientific narratives.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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In addition, there is a begged question of FUNCTION. The point on islands of function -- and islands can move [barrier islands do . . . ] is that first you have to achieve highly complex function within the organism, from zygote on, i.e a viable body plan, which is what islands of function highlights. Going beyond,it is notorious that mutations early in embryological development -- the ones that affect body plan, notoriously, strongly tend to be fatal because they are throwing a monkey wrench into a complex, multipart, integrated functioning entity. So, first, land on your moving island, then climb to the hilltops in the face of shifting geography as you please. But please, as has been repeatedly pointed out, do not beg the question of getting to the shorelines of functionality, starting with the very first one.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Well, that's what we are querying - that there are "resulting islands". It's the contention of evolution that there is, rather, a tree. There are certainly gulfs between the branches of the tree (to mix the metaphor) and those are conspicuously not crossed.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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It can say a great deal, and does, about its subsequent evolution. If you want to infer design from the lack of a plausible OOL theory, then that's fine, but you can't use lack of a plausible OOL story to refute Darwinian evolution. This is why some people, possibly including Darwin, consider it possible that God created the simplest life forms, then let evolution take it from there.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Most of the "landscape" is flooded with a sea of non-function. Unless you beg the question of being within the resulting islands of function. Which is what has been going on all along over and over.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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The origin of life is directly tied to any talk of its subsequent evolution. If Darwinism/ neo-darwinism is silent on the oigin of life then it cannot say anything about its subsequent evolution. If life was designed then it is safe to infer it evolved by design. It is only if life is the result of spontaneous/ stochastic processes would we infer darwinism/ neo-darwinism was the explanation for its subsequent evolution.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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Well, not in my view, kairosfocus, as I tried to articulate in my responses to your posts.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Charles: describing OOL models as a "just so modes" doesn't make them so! They are models being actively tested against actual data as we speak. And of course, they aren't mine. DrBot's point, of course, is that to raise the OOL as an argument against Darwinian evolution (the subject of the OP) doesn't make sense. Darwinian evolution isn't an OOL theory.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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I should add, I think dissecting the backgrounds of the people quoted, and their quotes, is fair game. Let the chips fall where they may. Let’s see where the evidence, all the evidence, leads. [above comment got 'replied' to wrong comment]Charles
August 23, 2011
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I should add, I think dissecting the backgrounds of the people quoted, and their quotes, is fair game. Let the chips fall where they may. Let's see where the evidence, all the evidence, leads.Charles
August 23, 2011
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Dr. Bot:
The topic of discussion is evolution, not the origin of self replicators. How many times do we have to point out that they are different questions – you can have an intelligently designed first life that then evolves – we are discussing the evolution of living things, not the design of first life.
Unless you are prepared to stipulate "first life" isn't living, or that self-replicators are neither alive nor evolve, you don't get to dismiss the problem of how the first self-replicators evolved from whatever they evolved from. If there is no initial island of function to be got to, then demonstrate the peninsula or isthmus, demonstrate how random chance formed a self-replicator and how it was naturally selected to self-replicate. No doubt Dr. Liddle can envision another of her "just so models" as a data appendix to your next paper on the subject. Aerodynamic engineers don't get to dismiss problems of takeoff and landing with blithe handwaving about mid-air flight. Physicists don't get to dismiss problems of how the standard model accounts for the origin of observed particles and forces with blithe handwaving about quantum vaccum. And Darwinists don't get to argue that everything evolves, that everything makes sense in the light of evolution, and then refuse to shine that light where evolution began. *Every* intellectually honest scientist must grapple with all the issues implicit in their theories, especially when they assert there are no sufficient alternative theories.
You have picked up the goalposts and run off with them into a neighboring field.
Hardly. You are pretending there is no goal line (let alone goal posts) at your end of the field.Charles
August 23, 2011
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DrBot, The origin of life directly impacts all subsequent evolution. For example if life was designed it is a safe bet it evolved by design, was designed to evolve. And the only reason to infer all subsequent evolution is due to accumulations of genetic accidents is if life arose spontaneously, ie via stochastic processes.Joseph
August 23, 2011
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...in which the landscape itself is a function of the search process.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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We aren't really talking about a target though are we - a better metaphor is a dynamically varying fitness landscape.DrBot
August 23, 2011
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the problem is to get to islands of function, as has been pointed out to you over and over again.
Easy, first life was designed. But we are not discussing that, we are discussing evolution. The topic of discussion is evolution, not the origin of self replicators. How many times do we have to point out that they are different questions - you can have an intelligently designed first life that then evolves - we are discussing the evolution of living things, not the design of first life. You have picked up the goalposts and run off with them into a neighboring field. Please address the issues on their merits.DrBot
August 23, 2011
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Or, how a moving target in general simplifies the search problem.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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That's not the analogy being invoked.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Kf:
the problem is to get to islands of function, as has been pointed out to you over and over again.
yes, I know you keep pointing it out! And what I keep on responding is that the issue is whether the "islands of function" are, in fact, islands. If they aren't there isn't a problem. So the argument isn't whether you can get to these putative islands of functions with a Darwinian search (obviously you can't), but whether they are, actually islands. And I think it is by no means clear that what you regard as IC hurdles are, in fact, IC hurdles. But we'd be better off arguing about that than arguing about whether Darwinian search could get over them if they existed. These are two quite separate arguments.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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