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Critics agree with Dembski, the No Free Lunch theorem applies to evolution

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We’ve all noticed the ID critics all speak outside of their realm of expertise. Biologists expound their expert opinions on mathematics, mathematicians make claims about computer science, and computer scientists think they know it all when it comes to evolution.

So, I thought, what happens if I only listen to their opinions in their actual realms of expertise?

Here’s a mathematician, MarkCC, author of the blog “Good Math, Bad Math.”

What’s his expertise? Math. What does he say about Dembski’s mathematics?

“he’s actually a decent mathematician”

What is not his expertise? Computer science. What does he say in the domain of computer science?

“But his only argument for making those modifications have nothing to do with evolution: he’s carefully picking search spaces[competitive agent (co-evolutionary) algorithms] that have the properties he want, even though they have fundamentally different properties from evolution.” [formatting mine]

Here MarkCC misunderstands the point of said paper, which is to define the how fitness of agents in co-evolutionary algorithms should be measured in general, regardless of the search space. (As an aside, he also doesn’t realize the triangle inequality can apply to evolutionary scenarios as well: B outbreeds and eliminates A, C outbreeds and eliminates B; but A could have outbred C given the chance.)

But, MarkCC is excused since both of these issues are outside of his realm of expertise.

Alright, let’s look at what the computer science experts have to say, namely Wolpert. Wolpert responds to Dembski’s earlier work on the NFL, which didn’t address co-evolution.

Let’s remind ourselves that Wolpert’s expertise lies in algorithms, not in biology. Does he detect any problem with Dembski’s understanding of the NFLT? Well, if Wolpert does, he says nothing. Instead, the supposed problem is:

“…throughout there is a marked elision of the formal details of the biological processes under consideration. Perhaps the most glaring example of this is that neo-Darwinian evolution of ecosystems does not involve a set of genomes all searching the same, fixed fitness function, the situation considered by the NFL theorems. Rather it is a co-evolutionary process.” [formatting mine]

So, within Wolpert’s domain of expertise he detects no problem with Dembski’s work, just like MarkCC, or at least is silent. Wolpert’s only complaint is outside his field, whether Dembski correctly formalizes evolutionary processes within his argument, not that Wolpert has much sympathy for Darwinists either.*  He does indicate that he believes the NFL does not apply to co-evolution**:

“Roughly speaking, as each genome changes from one generation to the next, it modifies the surfaces that the other genomes are searching. And recent results indicate that NFL results do not hold in co-evolution.

Now for the punch line: but what happens when Wolpert does examine the evolutionary details and whether the NFL applies to them?

“In general in biological coevolution scenarios (e.g., evolutionary game theory), there is no notion of a champion being produced by the search and subsequently pitted against an antagonist in a “bake-off”. Accordingly, there is no particular signifcance to results for C’s that depend on f.

This means that so long as we make the approximation, reasonable in real biological systems, that x’s are never revisited, all of the requirements of Ex. 1 are met. This means that NFL applies.” [formatting mine]

It is commonly noted that when smart people achieve expertise in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied.

The ID debates are no exception.

—————

* “First, biologists in particular and scientists in general are horribly confused defenders of their field. When responding to attacks from non-scientists, rather than attempt the rigor that the geometry of induction and similar bodies of statistics provide, they fall back on Popperian incantations, trying to browbeat their opponents into acceding to the homily that if one follows certain magic rituals—the vaunted “scientific method”—then one is rewarded with The Truth. No mathematically precise derivation of these rituals from first principles is provided. The “scientific method” is treated as a first-category topic, opening it up to all kinds of attack. In particular, in defending neo-Darwinism, no admission is allowed that different scientific disciplines simply cannot reach the same level of certainty in their conclusions due to intrinsic differences in the accessibility of the domains they study.”

** From the comments regarding how exactly the NFL applies to co-evolution:

What Wolpert is saying here is that co-evolution can produce fitter competitors, but it still cannot produce complex functionality:

“For example, say the problem is to design a value y that
maximizes a provided function g(y), e.g., design a biological
organ that can function well as an optical sensor. Then, even
if we are in the general coevolutionary scenario of interacting
populations, we can still cast the problem as a special case
of Example 1….
Due to the fact that they’re a special case of Example 1, the
NFL theorems hold in such scenarios. The extra details of the
dynamics introduced by the general biological coevolutionary
process do not affect the validity of those theorems, which is
independent of such details.”

However, it can possibly produce a better survivor:

“On the other hand, say the problem is to design an organism that is likely to avoid extinction (i.e., have a non-zero
population frequency) in the years after a major change to the
ecosystem. More precisely, say that our problem is to design
that organism, and then, after we’re done its ecosystem is
subjected to that change, a change we know nothing about a
priori. For this problem the coevolution scenario is a variant of
self-play; the “years after the major change to the ecosystem”
constitute the “subsequent game against an antagonist”. Now
it may be quite appropriate to choose a C that depends directly
on f. In this situation NFL may not hold.”

Note that this is consistent with ID’s claim that evolution cannot produce complex functionality.

Comments
F/N: I would like to hear someone explain to the designers of air to air missiles, how the fact that targets move means that there is not a search challenge to be met.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Dr Liddle the problem is to get to islands of function, as has been pointed out to you over and over again. Starting with the origin of life, the clearest case for those caught up in the tree of life analogy. And yes it is an argument by analogy in the end. More specifically until you have a metabolising entity with symbolic code based self replication based on C-chemistry aqueous media cells, you have not got to the first island of function for observed biological life, and you have no platform for claimed evolution by chance variation and natural selection. To then move to zygotes deploying into complex body plans with reproduction, including the origin of the sexes, you then have some serious irreducible complexity hurdles to pass, and this time it is not 100's of k bits, it is 10.s or 100s of mega bits of novel functionally specific info to account for. The only observationally warranted source for such FSCI is intelligence. And, Dr Bot, you need to address the beaver case -- and to the fact that it is say not any and every human who may design a computer -- on your attempt to constrict inference to design to inference to humans. The proper inference plainly is to intelligence. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I am afraid your objections were anticipated and answered in thread and in onward linked materials, from an exchange with a statistician some years ago. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Nope, he is plainly saying that no expert is better than his facts, reasoning and underlying assumptions.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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H'mm: This is good enough to deserve a name as a fallacy. Perhaps, the fallacy of creeping omniscience? As in [with adjustments, pardon]:
It is commonly noted that when smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people or the like achieve expertise or noted success in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart or educated or famous, or wealthy or powerful people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied. (But, even on those topics where they have genuine expertise, we should note that no expert is better than his facts, assumptions and reasoning.)
Any thoughts? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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I would agree that some of the critics are off-puttingly aggressive. But I don't think the flaws in Dembski's arguments require a great deal of mathematical expertise to spot, and IMO there are several. It's not that his equations are wrong, AFAICT, but that they aren't the equations that answer the relevant questions. I posted one here the other day, in a direct response to a post by Dembski himself.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Also:
Here’s a mathematician, MarkCC, author of the blog “Good Math, Bad Math.” What’s his expertise? Math. What does he say about Dembski’s mathematics? “he’s actually a decent mathematician, but he's devoted his skills to creating convincing mathematical arguments based on invalid premises.”
Plus there's Wolpert's preceding passage:
The values of the factors arising in the NFL theorems are never properly specified in [Dembski's] analysis. More generally, no consideration is given to whether some of the free lunches in the geometry of induction might be more relevant than the NFL theorems (e.g., those free lunches concerning "head-to-head minimax" distinctions that concern pairs of algorithms considered together rather than single algorithms considered in isolation).
The headline of the OP seems to me to be completely unjustified.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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As someone pointed out elsewhere, there is a part missing from the Wolpert quote:
Indeed, throughout there is a marked elision of the formal details of the biological processes under consideration. Perhaps the most glaring example of this is that neo-Darwinian evolution of ecosystems does not involve a set of genomes all searching the same, fixed fitness function, the situation considered by the NFL theorems. Rather it is a co-evolutionary process. Roughly speaking, as each genome changes from one generation to the next, it modifies the surfaces that the other genomes are searching. And recent results indicate that NFL results do not hold in co-evolution.
DrBot
August 23, 2011
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The NFL theorems would only apply to evolution if we also considered solutions to the problems of survival that are unconnected with each other. Evolutionary algorithms are far better than blind search algorithms at finding connected solutions, and connected solutions is exactly what they find. Nobody is claiming they find unconnected solutions - indeed that's why the solutions we observe form nested hierarchies, because those are the solutions findable by evolutionary algorithms. That is, of course, why Irreducible Complexity is the the one half-way decent argument against Darwinian evolution - an IC solution is supposed to be an unconnected solution, and therefore not findable by Darwinian evolution. The trouble is that just because something doesn't function if you take away any part doesn't mean that it got there by adding the parts that it currently has, so showing that any given solution is unconnected, or that all solutions are connected, is almost impossible. What you can do, however, is to show that the distribution of solutions forms nested hierarchies, i.e. connected solutions - indeed it was to explain this observed distribution that Darwin formulated his theory.Elizabeth Liddle
August 23, 2011
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Of course, when critiquing a theoretical result in Comp Sci and its application, it helps if one has expert or at least significant understanding in said field. As far as I can tell MCC does not have this, and I believe I have more expertise (MSc in AI & evoalgs). Wolpert, of course, is the expert here (since he wrote the theory), and he actually explicitly agrees with Dembski in his co-evolution paper, even though the agreement is sort of hidden (intentionally?).Eric Holloway
August 23, 2011
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Wolpert is probably one of the best examples to cite in regards to the NFLT, since he and MacReady developed the formalized theorem (though there were hints of it in a number of previous authors' writings). Truth be told, I've not found any other Comp Sci experts in algorithmics weigh in on Dembski's work. If you know of any I'd be grateful to see their work. I know my style is somewhat belligerent, but that is largely born of frustration. I did not come into ID with preconceived acceptance, in fact I was originally antagonistic. My thought was "If ID is so great, where are all the results? Why isn't it being applied? If Dembski et al are right, ID should be revolutionary in all realms of human endeavor!" So, I spent some time reading the critics, and this bore my frustration. I could not find one author who treated Dembski's work fairly! If someone could fairly refute Dembski's work I'd be all over it, but I haven't found anyone! Instead it's all passive aggressive ad homineum and brow beating, with ample burning of strawmen, very tiring to read. That's why I now adopt a fairly antagonistic writing style in regards to ID, daring anti-IDists to give me a good counter to Dembski! Of course, I'm not the greatest nor clearest writer, but I do know what I think, and am pretty sure I "get" ID, and can see when someone has refuted it. It's quite easy to make me look dumb, etc. but I really want someone who honestly sees a genuine problem with ID's foundations and can present it!Eric Holloway
August 23, 2011
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none appear to deal at all with the mathematical underpinnings of algorithms
So MCC isn't a mathematician then? My PhD was in computer science as well but I didn't do much on mathematical underpinnings. Comp Sci is quite broad as a field, some of my research was in practical applications for AI and evolutionary algorithms with an emphasis on hardware.
I believe it is still fair for me to say he is speaking outside of his realm of expertise when he critiques Dembski’s use of the NFLT.
Don't forget, we are talking about evolutionary biology and computer science. Dembski is a mathematician and a philosopher, not a biologist or a computer scientist.
It is commonly noted that when smart people achieve expertise in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge.
Indeed!DrBot
August 22, 2011
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I don’t care what expertise someone has, other than to perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt before they first open their mouth. After that, their credibility hinges on what they actually say, rather than some certificate they have on the wall.
It almost sounds like you are saying that you only find an expert credible if they are saying things you agree with ... ?DrBot
August 22, 2011
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This post surprises me greatly. I've read the blog off and on since Dembski created it. Many of the discussants have been software engineers. Gil Dodgen, in particular, has insisted that software engineers are particularly well equipped to understand why mainstream evolutionary theory is wrong. Furthermore, the blog has sought over and over to persuade laypeople that they can draw correct conclusions about evolutionary theory for themselves, i.e., without relying on "experts" to tell them what is right or wrong. Biologists are almost all evolutionists. Most of the proponents of ID are not educated in life sciences. Your effort to get people to accept ID depends heavily on persuading them that people who are not experts in biology can identify errors in evolutionary theory. But when you do that, you must acknowledge that one does not need expertise in ID theory to identify errors in it.SimonLeberge
August 22, 2011
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Eric Anderson, I whole-heartedly concur with your acute perspective, right on. Neo-Darwinists, are some of the most intellectually dishonest scientists I have ever heard. Regarding qualifications in any specified field of expertise, I maintain, that it is NOT* the 'degrees' that validate what they say, BUT, what they say, that qualifies their 'degrees'!Zoe
August 22, 2011
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Eric, A little clarification, if you please. You say "critics" and "what the computer science experts have to say" and yet you cite only one such authority. Were there other experts that you forgot to mention? Thank you.paragwinn
August 22, 2011
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I've an example, too. Mike Behe - a biochemist who talks a lot outside his field, about evolutionary biology. He should leave it to those with expertise in it. Like Richard Lenski. And another - Phillip Johnson, a lawyer who also talks outside his field, strangely enough also about evolutionary biology. The list is endless.....Grunty
August 22, 2011
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Of somewhat related interest at ENV: Vanity, Thy Name is Venema - David Klinghoffer http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/08/memoir_recounts_a_scholars_bre049771.htmlbornagain77
August 22, 2011
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I don't care what expertise someone has, other than to perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt before they first open their mouth. After that, their credibility hinges on what they actually say, rather than some certificate they have on the wall. This is particularly true with controversial issues which have the potential to carry a lot of philosophical baggage. The funny thing is watching people (including some of the ones cited in the post above) who realize that chance and necessity have no ability to do anything meaningful in their field of expertise, but who are awed by "evolution" (always poorly defined) and imagine that it has some special property that allows it to violate everything else we know about how the world works. Darwinists have been so exceedingly successful in getting people to buy into the mantra that "with a self-replicating organism nothing is impossible," that unfortunately many people just assume it must be true and that the onus should be on the skeptics to prove otherwise. Darwinism has never, not for a century and a half, even come close to carrying its burden to demonstrate that the design so evident in life (which Darwinists acknowledge appears to be there there and from which they must constantly avert their eyes) can come about by Darwin's proposed process of chance changes + selection. The only reason it is even believable to some people is that it relys on a near complete lack of understanding of what is actually required for living systems, compounded by unfortunate fact that we are gazing back through the murky mists of time. Apologies for the long-winded comment, but I am not at all impressed with an "expert" paying obeisance to evolution.Eric Anderson
August 22, 2011
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Unfortunately, it's not just smart people, it seems to afflict anyone who revels in the accolades of man. Look at movie stars who are now experts on the environment, or sports figures who have sought-after opinions on politics etc. The principle seems to be - the more famous you are, the harder to admit you might be wrong about something.Jack Golightly
August 22, 2011
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It is commonly noted that when smart people achieve expertise in a certain area, they suddenly think they are experts in many others, even when lacking the necessary knowledge. When listening to smart people, it is always wise to take this into consideration, and listen most closely to their opinions about what they’re carefully studied.
So true. And beautifully put.Daniel King
August 22, 2011
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If by "Computer Science" you mean software engineering, then yes, you are correct. However, if you look at his publications: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=30&q=Mark+Chu-Carroll&hl=en&as_sdt=0,47 none appear to deal at all with the mathematical underpinnings of algorithms, which is more properly the relevant field for understanding the No Free Lunch Theorem. So, I believe it is still fair for me to say he is speaking outside of his realm of expertise when he critiques Dembski's use of the NFLT.Eric Holloway
August 22, 2011
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What’s his expertise? Math. ... What is not his expertise? Computer science.
From the 'About MarkCC' section of his blog:
Mark Chu-Carroll is a PhD computer scientist and professional software engineer. His professional interests center on collaborative software development, programming languages and tools, and how to improve the daily lives of software developers.
What is his expertise? Computer science.DrBot
August 22, 2011
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