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On Invoking Non-Physical Mental States to “Solve the Problem” of Consciousness

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A. Reciprocating Bill asks a question

In a comment to a recent post Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness.” It is an interesting question, but not for the reason Bill intended. It is interesting because it betrays Bill’s fundamental misunderstanding of the argument he purports to be critiquing (I am not picking on Bill in particular; I am merely using his error as a platform to discuss the same error that materialists always make when discussing this issue). In this post I will show how Bill’s misunderstanding stems from his inability to view the world outside of the box of materialist metaphysics in which he has allowed himself to become trapped. I will also show that if Bill were ever able to climb out of that box and open his mind to a different, wider (and for that reason superior) ontological perspective, he would realize that consciousness is not a “problem” to be solved but a datum that must be accounted for in any robust ontology.

Here is Bill’s question in its entirety:

In Reference and Reality Hilary Putnam parenthetically remarked, “As Wittgenstein often pointed out, a philosophical problem is typically generated in this way: certain assumptions are made which are taken for granted by all sides in the subsequent discussion.”

I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else? At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

B. The mind is immaterial

While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.

Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.” And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun. Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity. But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:

1. Thoughts are immaterial.

Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all? Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.

Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there. 2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious? Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.

2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality.

As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.

Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.

In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not. The usual response of “it’s all emergent and stuff” is a non-starter. Unless you show how the physical gives rise to the mental, “it’s emergent” is the equivalent of saying “it’s magic!”

3. Qualia are immaterial.

Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory.

Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.

4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial.

As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).

5. The unified consciousness is immaterial.

Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.

Neuroscience cannot, in principle, account for this unity for a very simple reason – science operates at the level of composites. We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.

6. Summary

I will allow David Bentley Hart to summarize for us.

[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

The material mind is a datum. As Hart says, it is the primordial datum. It is a datum that is known by everyone, because it cannot not be known. Thus, when I assert that the mind is immaterial I am not making an argument. I not advancing an “explanation.” I am not trying to “solve a problem.” I am merely stating a fact, a self-evident fact at that.

C. Answering Bill’s Questions.

With all of that as preface, let us turn to Bill’s questions.

1. I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth.

As I said, I am not attempting to solve the problem of consciousness. Further, I deny that such a thing as the “problem of consciousness” exists, if by “problem” one means a conundrum posed for a solution concerning whether the mind exists. I invoke an ontology that includes nonphysical mental states not to solve a problem but merely to account for the data. To do otherwise would be manifest error. It is an indubitable fact that nonphysical mental states exist, and therefore any ontology that has no room for nonphysical mental states is, by definition, erroneous, incomplete or both.

Facts are stubborn things as John Adams famously said. Denying facts does not make them go away. I readily admit that the fact of the existence of the immaterial mind is not anodyne to those who insist on a materialist metaphysics. But I would point out that if one’s metaphysics conflict with the facts, that is not a problem with the facts. It is a problem with one’s metaphysics.

2. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc.

It was not intended to be a fair question Bill. It is a rhetorical question, asked only to emphasize that the only coherent answer is “they can’t be.”

3. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

What difficulty? There is no difficulty unless you’ve set out to do the impossible by ascribing the attributes of consciousness (intentionality, qualia, unity, etc.) to objects such as atoms or rocks or amalgamations of chemicals. No one “assigns” consciousness to immaterial minds any more than anyone assigns “seeing” to eyes. And that an immaterial mind is the locus of your consciousness is as evident as your eyes are the locus of your capacity to see (perhaps even more evident; blind people think after all). If acknowledging self-evident facts seems somehow “empty” to you, the problem is assuredly with your perception and not with the facts.

4. That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else?

The “interaction” problem is a function of blinkered metaphysics. Adopt a more robust metaphysics and the problem vanishes. Hart again:

In Western philosophical tradition, for instance, neither Platonists, nor Aristotelians, nor Stoics, nor any of the Christian metaphysicians of late antiquity or the Middle Ages could have conceived of matter as something independent of “spirit,” or of spirit as something simply superadded to matter in living beings. Certainly none of them thought of either the body or the cosmos as a machine merely organized by a rational force from beyond itself. Rather, they saw matter as being always already informed by indwelling rational causes, and thus open to— and in fact directed toward— mind. Nor did Platonists or Aristotelians or Christians conceive of spirit as being immaterial in a purely privative sense, in the way that a vacuum is not aerial or a vapor is not a solid. If anything, they understood spirit as being more substantial, more actual, more “supereminently” real than matter, and as in fact being the pervasive reality in which matter had to participate in order to be anything at all. The quandary produced by early modern dualism— the notorious “interaction problem” of how an immaterial reality could have an effect upon a purely material thing —was no quandary at all, because no school conceived of the interaction between soul and body as a purely extrinsic physical alliance between two disparate kinds of substance.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

5. At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

If by “intriguing hooks” you mean facile speculations about how the unbridgeable ontological gulf between the physical and mental is not so unbridgeable after all, I might agree. But if you are actually holding out hope that the gulf will be bridged, you are bound to be disappointed, because the mind is not the brain.  Materialists are addicted to debt.  The constantly issue epistemic promissory notes that a moment of ontological reflection would reveal they cannot possibly pay.  Bill, the bottom line is this:  Neuroscience will continue to progress, but it will never progress to the point where it do the impossible — collapse the distinction between the ontological categories “physical” and “mental.”

6. There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one.

That is kind of funny, because you appear to be saying in all earnestness that if a fact cannot be investigated through the methods of science, it is a problem with the fact (and not merely evidence of the limitations of science). Let’s unpack this. You seem to be advancing an argument that can be broken down as follows:

There are no facts except those revealed to us by science
Science has not revealed to us the existence of an immaterial mind
Therefore, immaterial minds do not exist.

Surely you know that the major premise cannot possibly be correct as a matter of simple and indubitable logic – because that premise itself has not been revealed to us by science. Therefore, if it is true it must as a result be false. For another thing, as we have already seen, the existence of the immaterial mind is an undeniable fact. Therefore, any argument that leads to the conclusion that it is not a fact must, by definition, be faulty.

7. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

The only reason you suspect that is because of the poverty of your metaphysics. Free yourself. Allow yourself to think beyond the comfortable contours of your metaphysical box, and you will see possibilities you were never able to see before. I promise.

Comments
@Tim,
Correcting something that I did not write! I did not say it was a utm, but a physical embodiment of one. Based on eigenstate’s own description of what a brain is, i.e. an electrical circuit, my description is not even controversial.
The brain is not a physical instance of a UTM, and not just because it has finite storage. A Turing Machine has an interpreted (computer) language that is read off the tape, and which is "Turing Complete" in terms of its language features -- see here, for example. Modern computing languages are generally Turing Complete, but of course, the brain is not a computer like that, and you can't submit a program to your brain to execute as provided from a Turing machine. The brain is not a Turing Machine, but if you were right about that, you'd have only undermined your point further. If you recall the history of Turing the man, Turing machines, and the Turing Test, both intentionality and intentions were part of the plan. That is, to pass the Turing Test, any successful computing platform would have to satisfy the interrogator that the machine was a human -- a human with both intentions and intentional stances (again, different concepts, which I'm not convinced your clear on, but both are implicated, here). So a Turing's project was to build a computer that would have "about-ness" -- and not just intentionality at a basic level such as a thermometer might have, but "meta-intentionality", the state of "about-ness" targeted at its own "about-ness". As a practical matter, the machine would have to be able to discuss with the interrogator it "what it was thinking about", for example. All of which to say, anyone familiar with Turing, or the strong AI project he founded, will understand this as incorrect: "And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions". That is not something "we all know", not hardly. The strong AI thesis directly contradicts this claim.
He then mentions plasticity and reconnecting, but so what? the brain remains but a complex electrical circuit. Oh, and the fact that its “memory” (read “tape” for utms) is finite is but a further limitation, and yet only a distinction that makes no difference. I do note his cheery reference to strong AI; I won’t pick on him here beyond filing it under well, how about science fantasy?
Yes, like rockets to the moon, and wireless phones (!) and a "world wide web"!
I am certainly not confused about intentionality. eigenstate writes that his mac intends to do things . . .
In the first sentence here you claim you are not confused about intentionality. Then in the very next sentences, you demonstrate that you still do not understand the distinction between "intention" and "intentionality". Please read this. Note this bit near the top:
Why is intentionality so-called? For reasons soon to be explained, in its philosophical usage, the meaning of the word ‘intentionality’ <b<should not be confused with the ordinary meaning of the word ‘intention.’
(emphasis mine)
. . .just my Mac, here — “intends” to find a qualified target — some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal, This is either a blatant example of smuggling, or an obvious example of losing track of the active and passive form of the verb “to intend”. The mac intends nothing; it is superintended by you.
It is designed to take on any number of intentions, intentions given to it by a human user, or by other computers is it is connected to. There's nothing to "smuggle"; the utility of the system obtains from being able to perform tasks on our behalf, or on the behalf of other machines. It's a basic design goal for platform. The fact that I "superintend", or just give it a search target for a file name to search for on my drive in no way negates the goal-orientation of the process running on the computer. In AI implementations, these targets and tasks just become more and more autonomous and internal to the system, deriving from a smaller, higher-level set of general goals than the small task I assign to my mac in looking for a particular file.
I will offer you a couple ways out: 1) If, on materialism, a human brain is not a physical embodiment of a UTM, tell why. (Here, I believe you have a problem as you have already described it as a circuit, but that’s just me.)
UTM != circuit. See above on your confusion about UTMs. The brain has electrical circuitry (syntactical circuits), but it's not circuitry like you'd find in a computer. This claim is wrong and confused on several levels. Worse, even if the brain was a Turing Machine, that would only undermine your claim that "we all know" it can't have intentionality or intentions (different but relevant capabilities).
or, 2) If, on materialism, a human brain is a physical embodiment of a utm, but utm’s have intentions, explain how this could be. ( . . . a tough row to hoe, as all you have is a set of directions, a reader, and a tape, again that’s just me.)
This is the strong AI thesis. Maybe read up a bit on it! What did you suppose strong AI was planning to use for any implementations it worked on? "Tape" is an obsolete term that was current in Turing's day -- it's just persistent storage now -- an SSD drive fulfills that role in my Mac. But the computing architecture remains.
or, 3) On materialism, we don’t actually have intentions, but it’s nice to think we do. (uuuuuhhhhh . . . you can have this one.)
Well, on materialism, you don't have intentions the way you think you do -- some supernatural agency attached (!??!) to your brain comes up with a goal or a target plan. There's no need or support for that in the model, nor any evidence for it as actual. So in that sense you are right: on materialism, your understandings about how "intending" happens would be incorrect, and would need significant revision to be correct (and mine would too, to the extent I indulged those supernaturalist intuitions). But that is not to negate "intending" as a real and causal aspect of the mind in humans (and other animals), or machines (although we would not likely ascribe any such intentions to its "mind", unless and until such time as the become sufficiently human-like for the term to be useful). eigenstate
goodusername
Move a Word doc from one part of the hard drive to another, or even to a different drive, and we’d say it’s the same file.
If it's an analogy of the self, then no - it's not the same file. We can determine the difference between the original and the copy also (date stamped). The pattern of molecules cannot be what distinguishes the self in human beings. If it was, then the sense of self would change as the molecular patterns change (and they do change over the course of a human-lifetime). The patterns change, but the same-self persists. Silver Asiatic
I wrote:
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we’ll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question.
to which eigenstate responded:
First, the brain/mind is not a UTM, and can’t be.
Correcting something that I did not write! I did not say it was a utm, but a physical embodiment of one. Based on eigenstate's own description of what a brain is, i.e. an electrical circuit, my description is not even controversial. He then mentions plasticity and reconnecting, but so what? the brain remains but a complex electrical circuit. Oh, and the fact that its "memory" (read "tape" for utms) is finite is but a further limitation, and yet only a distinction that makes no difference. I do note his cheery reference to strong AI; I won't pick on him here beyond filing it under well, how about science fantasy? I am certainly not confused about intentionality. eigenstate writes that his mac intends to do things . . .
. . .just my Mac, here — “intends” to find a qualified target — some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal,
This is either a blatant example of smuggling, or an obvious example of losing track of the active and passive form of the verb "to intend". The mac intends nothing; it is superintended by you. I will offer you a couple ways out: 1) If, on materialism, a human brain is not a physical embodiment of a UTM, tell why. (Here, I believe you have a problem as you have already described it as a circuit, but that's just me.) or, 2) If, on materialism, a human brain is a physical embodiment of a utm, but utm's have intentions, explain how this could be. ( . . . a tough row to hoe, as all you have is a set of directions, a reader, and a tape, again that's just me.) or, 3) On materialism, we don't actually have intentions, but it's nice to think we do. (uuuuuhhhhh . . . you can have this one.) Tim
eigenstate @ 100 "The brain’s neuronal array is very large in terms of the “bits” it can store (never mind for now that it’s not “bits-oriented” in how it stores information)" from http://www.quora.com/How-much-information-does-a-human-brain-neuron-store "Theories of connectionism and work on neural networks attempt to explain and model how complex behaviors and rules can be represented in networks of otherwise mostly identical units (in the case of the brain, neurons), but as yet there are no generally accepted theories of how a purely syntactic network (defined entirely by the connections between "meaningless" units) can encode semantic content (informations about meaning)." Neither you or I know how the brain works, stop bluffing. Cheers Cross
Silver Asiatic,
If you replace every molecule in your brain with an identical molecule in the same place and “your self” still exists, then your conscious self cannot be the molecules. Because even though “identical” they are a different set of molecules than the original.
As I argued, I believe it's the pattern that's important to maintain the self. Molecules are required to maintain the pattern, but it doesn't need to be any particular set of molecules. If the molecules are replaced by identical molecules and the pattern is maintained, then the self is maintained. If the pattern is sufficiently disrupted, then the self is lost. This is different than with a ship or broom, where if every part is replaced - even with identical parts in the same configuration - we'd say it's a different ship or broom. With the "self", it's more analogous a computer program or a Word document in this regard. Move a Word doc from one part of the hard drive to another, or even to a different drive, and we'd say it's the same file. goodusername
eigenstate:
@Mapou So knower and known are both opposites and the same?
I have no idea what “opposites” would mean in this context.
I know. You're lost in a lost world but you don't know it. You just know that you're right. See ya. Mapou
bornagain77:
Carp, if you are going to defend the reductive materialist position that consciousness can ’emerge’ from a matter-energy basis, would it not behoove you to at least first prove that reductive materialism, instead of Theism, was true?
It's not a case of "instead of Theism". If it were true that there is a God who created the universe, this would in no way lead to the conclusion that biological life was designed immediately and as needed with hands-on guidance. God as described is certainly capable of designing an initial life-form that then evolved into us. The frustrating conclusion I derive from the ID side is that it's not possible. Understand that not all theists take their holy books as being literally true. Carpathian
Are you saying that the memories are in the brain or that the brain is used as the interface to external immaterial memories?
Nobody knows the nature of memories yet, if someone tells you the opposite he is lying at you. My grandmother had Alzheimer, she didn't remember anything but when people that she loved visited her she smiled and she was peaceful, she knew without memories that these people are close to her heart. Are memories material? First of all matter doesn't exist, when you reduce matter you get probabilistic waves not subatomic particles, that fact makes the answer even more complicated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM JimFit
Carp, if you are going to defend the reductive materialist position that consciousness can 'emerge' from a matter-energy basis, would it not behoove you to at least first prove that reductive materialism, instead of Theism, was true?
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism By Bruce L Gordon, Ph.D Excerpt: The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical – and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
bornagain77
bornagain77, No problem. Understand though that I believe that the brain is the source of what we call mind and it's a position I'm trying to defend by at least getting some common understanding of what seems logical. In a nutshell, your side seems to be saying the brain is an interface and our side says it is the source. If we keep working on it we may at least get some common ground on what our positions really mean. Carpathian
Well Carp, if you are sincere I am sorry for being short with you. It gets a bit old dealing with atheistic dogma after a while. I hope Jim helped. He answered better, more succinctly, than I could have anyway. bornagain77
JimFit:
It doesn’t remove/delete the memories, it removes the access to these memories, that’s why some patients retrieve their memory.
Are you saying that the memories are in the brain or that the brain is used as the interface to external immaterial memories? Carpathian
bornagain77:
read the paper Carp and stop imposing your materialistic dogma onto the evidence:
I have asked some very simple questions. Carpathian
Carpathian
1) If I am wrong and memories are not stored in the brain but reside in the mind, why would brain damage remove memory?
It doesn't remove/delete the memories, it removes the access to these memories, that's why some patients retrieve their memory.
)If a person suddenly dies and memories are located in the brain, how does the mind retrieve them after death?
That doesn't make sense if you are talking about an afterlife with an Omniscience God which by definition knows everything. Lets say that in your hard disc you have a collection of stamps, the hard disc breaks down (dies) and you loose everything, you get a new hard disc which is connected to the internet and has access to a digital base that has every stamp that was ever published. You won't care anymore about your lost collection (your memories). JimFit
read the paper Carp and stop imposing your materialistic dogma onto the evidence:
A Reply To Shermer - Lommel excerpt: There is also a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science states that consciousness is the product of the brain. This concept, however, has never been scientifically proven. Research on NDE pushes us at the limits of our medical concepts of the range of human consciousness and the relationship between consciousness and memories with the brain. For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success. In connection with the hypothesis that consciousness and memories are stored inside the brain the question also arises how a non-material activity such as concentrated attention or thinking can correspond with a visible (material) reaction in the form of a measurable electrical, magnetic and chemical activity at a certain place in the brain. Different mental activities give rise to changing patterns of activity in different parts of the brain. This has been shown in neurophysiology through EEG, magneto-encephalogram (MEG) and at present also through magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and positron emission tomography (PET-scan). (9-11) Also an increase in cerebral blood flow is observed during such a non-material activity like thinking (12). It is also not well understood how it is to be explained that in a sensory experiment following a physical sensation the person involved in the test stated that he was aware (conscious) of the sensation a few thousands of a second following the stimulation, while the subject’s brain showed that neuronal adequacy wasn’t achieved until after a full 500 msec. following the sensation. This experiment has led to the so-called delay-and-antedating hypothesis (13). Most body cells, and especially all neurons, show an electrical potential across cell membranes, formed by the presence of a metabolic Na/K pump. Transportation of information along neurons happens by means of action potentials, differences in membrane potential caused by synaptic depolarisation (excitatory) and hyperpolarisation (inhibitory). The sum total of changes along neurons causes transient electric fields, and therefore also transient magnetic fields, along the synchronously activated dendrites. Not the number of neurons, the precise shape of the dendrites (dendritic tree), nor the accurate position of synapses, neither the firing of individual neurons is crucial, but the derivative, the fleeting electric and/or magnetic fields generated along the dendrites. These should be shaped as optimally as possible into short-lasting meaningful patterns, constantly changing in four-dimensional shape and intensity (self-organization), and constantly mutually interacting between all neurons. This process can be considered as a biological quantum coherence phenomenon. The influence of external localized magnetic and electric fields on these constant changing electric and/or magnetic fields during normal function of the brain should now be mentioned. Neurophysiological research is being performed using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in the course of which a localized magnetic field (photons) is produced. TMS can excite or inhibit different parts of the brain, depending of the amount of energy given, allowing functional mapping of cortical regions, and creation of transient functional lesions. It allows assessing the function in focal brain regions on a millisecond scale, and it can study the contribution of cortical networks to specific cognitive functions. TMS is a non-invasive research tool to study aspects of human brain physiology including motor function, vision, language, and the pathophysiology of brain disorders as well as mood disorders like depression, and it even may be useful for therapy. In studies TMS can interfere with visual and motion perception, it gives an interruption of cortical processing with an interval of 80-100 milliseconds. Intracortical inhibition and facilitation are obtained by paired-pulse studies with TMS, and reflect the activity of interneurons in the cortex. Also TMS can alter the functioning of the brain beyond the time of stimulation, but it does not appear to leave any lasting effect. (14). Interrupting the electrical fields of local neuronal networks in parts of the cortex also disturbs the normal function of the brain, because by localized electrical stimulation of the temporal and parietal lobe during surgery for epilepsy the neurosurgeon and Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation.(15-16) After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories inside the brain. Olaf Blanke also recently described in Nature a patient with induced OBE by inhibition of cortical activity caused by more intense external electrical stimulation of the gyrus angularis in a patient with epilepsy (17). The effect of the external magnetic or electrical stimulation is dependent of the amount of energy given. There may be no clinical effect or sometimes stimulation is seen when only a small amount of energy is given, for instance during stimulation of the motoric cortex. But during “stimulation” with higher energy inhibition of local cortical functions occurs by extinction of the electrical and magnetic fields resulting in inhibition of local neuronal networks (personal communication Blanke). Also in the patient described by Blanke in Nature stimulation with higher electric energy was given, resulting in inhibition of the function of the local neuronal networks in the gyrus angularis. And when for instance the occipital visual cortex is stimulated by TMS, this results not in a better sight, but instead it causes temporary blindness by inhibition of this part of the cortex. We have to conclude that localized artificial stimulation with real photons (electrical or magnetic energy) disturb and also inhibit the constant changing electrical and magnetic fields of our neuronal networks, and so influence and inhibit the normal function of our brain. In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the “invisible and not measurable” consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication. There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields (real photons) for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the innumerable amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear in our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear in our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV is transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive at about the same time what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set. Again, we do not realize us the thousands of telephone calls, the hundreds of radio and TV transmissions, as well as the internet, coded as electromagnetic fields, that exist around us and through us. Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set. The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body. So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. etc.. etc..,,, http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
bornagain77
bornagain77, This does not explain why memories are stored in the brain and not in the mind since it is the mind that uses them. 1) If I am wrong and memories are not stored in the brain but reside in the mind, why would brain damage remove memory? 2)If a person suddenly dies and memories are located in the brain, how does the mind retrieve them after death? Carpathian
Carp, the material body is noticeably impaired with hemispherectomy, while the whole 'person' stays intact. That is not, contrary to your blinder view of the evidence, NOT expected on materialistic premises. As to your specific questions, I suggest looking up Dr. Pim van Lommel's research on the subject. I believe he addresses all those points 'scientifically': Nonlocal Consciousness: An Explanatory Model for the Near-Death Experience - Pim van Lommel, M.D. - video http://www.btci.org/consciousness/archive/2012/videos2012/vid1.html also see Lommel's paper 'A reply to Shermer' http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm bornagain77
bornagain77:
The point you missed is that the whole person stays intact even though an entire hemisphere was removed.
I expect the person to be virtually the same. If I remove an organ that has a duplicate, such as a lung or kidney, I expect the person to not change too much and we see that. We also see that with a hemisphere but don't see the same effect if we remove equal parts on both side.
Although it is blatantly obvious if you removed both frontal lobes, and thus severely compromised the ability of consciousness to be received in the brain, that would cause severe impairment.
If we "receive" consciousness in the brain, are our memories also external to the brain? If the memories are external, why do we permanently lose memories due to brain damage? If memories are internal, how does the mind/soul retrieve them from the brain when the brain dies? If the memories are immaterial as the brain is, why do we need to store them in the brain at all? Carpathian
@wallstreeter43
Actually Eigenstate , you are the one that failed here as every nde researcher disagrees with you as the evidence itself says that the mind is not caused by the brain. How do they know ? Well because some Nde’s are happening during a time when the brain is non functional .
I'm no expert on NDEs, but am aware that there's a lot of fast and loose terminology used around "brain dead" and "non-functional" and "shut down". A patient in a near death or dying crisis maybe unconscious or unresponsive, this does not mean the brain is not functioning. It's a bit off topic, but I'd be interested in a link or two if you have such handy that discussed cases where the brain had ceased all electrical activity and yet we observed NDE experiences to be happening at that time. One problem I do remember reading about was the "self-reporting" problem. Patients may vividly recall their exeriences (and I don't doubt they do experience something, whether a pure hallucination or no), and place their experiences in a timeline, but they aren't able to connect those experiences to that timeline just as a matter or recounting the experience.
Veridical Nde’s are also happening . How can a person see without their eyes and also a very damaged or non functional ?
That seems a major problem for the claim, doesn't it? Like Uri Geller bending spoons, it appears more likely that the "veridicality" does not obtain than that is some discovery of a major violation of physical law. But
Eigenstate you simply aren’t up to date with all the information. It is you that has failed sir
I thought the study this article discusses was interesting: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130814-near-death-brain-life-after-death-bright-light/ The subject of the study was mice, and not humans (for obvious ethical reasons if you read the methods of the experiment), but the findings of a burst of activity in the 30 seconds of cardiac arrest suggest a view that identifies these experiences as hallucinations. There's nothing conclusive about the study, but as opposed to a competing hypothesis that says that perception and vision are not constrained by physical laws and processes, this strikes me as a much more likely path toward an eventually solid answer than... "spooky stuff". eigenstate
E’s argument: concepts don’t exist, just brain states representing concepts. Some part of your brain is tricked into thinking those other parts of your brain are concepts. Translation: one configuration of matter is “tricking” another configuration of matter.
Neuroscience doesn't support the intuition that we "think in English" (in the case of native English speakers) or that our internal thoughts are managed in "syntactical language" formats. I don't know how prevalent that intuition is, but it certainly is one I've had, that I seem to be having an "inner discussion" in English. I do imagine things I might say out loud, and in those cases, my idea gets rendered into English, even if I don't actually say anything out loud. But the idea that my internal concept structures are like some spoken or written discourse is not at all borne out by the evidence we have. So in that sense, we may realize that "concepts don't exist in the way we often intuit they do". But this just speaks to the intuitions we have about our thinking, and doesn't deny the reality or efficacy of brain activity patterns that do correspond to "concepts" and "conceptual thinking".
The problem is that it’s a regress. A configuration of matter can’t be tricked, only a mind can be tricked.
That's problematic as you've expressed it. If mind is a particular configuration of matter, and this is the position of the materialist, then indeed "matter can be tricked", where that matter occurs in the form of a mind.
So you are left trying to explain mind arising from brain by presupposing that a subset of the brain itself is a mind. You then have to recursively explain that all the way down to the level of chemistry. Good luck!
Mind doesn't arise from brain, brain does not "give rise" to mind, as another common usage puts it. The brain is the mind, in the same sense that the "walking" is the body. The body doesn't "give rise" to walking -- that attaches the semantics of a discrete entity apart from the body to "walking". Walking is not a "thing" in that sense, it's a description of the activity of a body. Mind does not "arise" from the brain -- that commits to the same misconception. "Mind" is a description of the activity of the brain, as opposed to being a "thing" apart from the brain, "generated" by the brain. There's no presupposing, here. If I am to presuppose, my intuitions often suggest to me that I am an disembodied, immaterial mind, floating in the ether, but somehow integrally attached to my brain and body. That would be my starting point. My view, based on the evidence and knowledge available, is an after-the-facts conclusion that these intuitions and presuppositions are mistaken, and that while I can't "feel myself think" in the way I might feel my fingers touching the keyboard, my consciousness is the direct experience of the neural activity of my brain. If this were a matter of just going with presuppositions, I'd be taking positions much close to Barry's reflexive pronouncements. Instead, this is a case of thinking and evaluation succeeding in supplanting my own intuitions as the best explanation for what is happening when I think, what consciousness is as real phenomenon. ETA: blockquotes, as per usual eigenstate
@Mapou
So knower and known are both opposites and the same?
I have no idea what "opposites" would mean in this context. In this example, the subject and the object were the same -- me. This is self-reference, or introspection. To read your reaction, you seem to have some problem with the concept or reality of self-reference?
That makes sense to you?
Well, how would you identify the knower and knower for the example I gave? Who is the knower and who/what is the known in that case? Not only does my answer seem trivially sensible, I can't think of alternative answers for knower and known that *do* make sense. Who would the knower be in that case but "me"? Who/what would be the known, other than my internal state or my sensations? And you people think you have a leg to stand on? You are all pathetic ignoramuses in the very subjects that you pretend to know so much about. How would you identifier knower and known for apprehending the state of one's "feeling hunger"? eigenstate
@Tim,
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we’ll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question.
First, the brain/mind is not a UTM, and can't be. A UTM is an idealization, with one of its requirements being "infinite external storage". The brain's neuronal array is very large in terms of the "bits" it can store (never mind for now that it's not "bits-oriented" in how it stores information), but like your computer, it has a finite capacity for storage. Also, a UTM requires a language with an interpreter sufficient for self-reference: able to rewrite its own programs. Brains have something analogous, I'd say, in their neuroplasticity and re-connective capacities, but a UTM is a formal specification that a brain doesn't conform to. Not sure that's a problem for your basic point or mine, but the brain is not and cannot be a UTM. More importantly, though, it is not true that "we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions". The strong AI thesis hold exactly that. Strong AI may never be realized (or perhaps it will be), but either way, there are a great many what do not "know" or accept that as a limitation, and hold that intentionality (remember that "intend" and "Intentionality" here are not the same concept) is in principle practical for computing machinery (to cite just one feature commonly held as "human only"). You seem to be confusing "intend" and "intentionality" again, but if we are talking about intentions, the pursuit of a goal, I don't think that's a difficult challenge at all. A search algorithm running on my computer -- never mind strong AI, just my Mac, here -- "intends" to find a qualified target -- some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal, and actively seeks the target string I've provided. Under a strong AI model, the intentions are much more human like. Rather than just be a "slave machine" that intends on targets given it, it would also have higher level processes that sort through high level goals and options, and chooses targets as its high-level intentions like a human does.
All the sound and fury concerning the effect of brain on mind (see numerous posts on brain injury) as well as the curious definition of mind as not more than an activity analogous to walking is smoke and mirrors. In the first case, nobody denies that losing brain function will effect the mind any more than I might argue that eating a plate of cookies (with milk!) might change my attitude and thus change who I am.
Many dualists/immaterialists do not deny such, but also do not recognize or address the implications of that. Why would structural damage to parts of brain result in temper control problems if my "free will" and agency are immaterial, a spiritual self that supervenes on the matter of the brain?
In the second case, calling the “I” which we all call ourselves nothing more than activity, simply secretes the materialist denial of the “person” into a “doing” (we often notice that doing is accompanied by persons, so it seems a logical connection, but it is not. It is a leap that makes no sense upon reflection. After all, I neither cease nor become myself by walking, so how can it be by the activities of the mind, unless only on strictly materialist understanding? Impossible.)
Walking isn't consciousness, of course. The isomorphism in that analogy was between a high-level description of patterns of activity, where both walking and thinking are natural processes (constituted by physical stuff, atoms, etc.). So I wasn't suggesting that walking instantiated one's consciousness or anything like that. Rather, "consciousness" is a label we assign to the active functioning of the brain. The brain doesn't "create consciousness", or "create the self" -- that kind of formulation slips into dualist modes of thinking, of a dichotomy between brain activity and mind. The activity of the brain *is* consciousness, and the self *is* the active of the brain. Walking is a much more mundane activity, I'll readily grant, but the analogy was apt for the connection I was making -- "molecules in motion" takes on different meaning for different kinds of high-level structures and patterns of organization. eigenstate
M @ 98:
Don’t bother replying, dude. I’m no longer interested in your views.
I suspect you will get a reply nevertheless. E wants you to know -- insists on you knowing -- that the only reason why you don't accept his incoherent spewings is because you are too stupid or lazy to understand why he is so much smarter than you. Barry Arrington
eigenstate:
So I am the knower, and I am the known.
So knower and known are both opposites and the same? That makes sense to you? And you people think you have a leg to stand on? You are all pathetic ignoramuses in the very subjects that you pretend to know so much about. PS. Don't bother replying, dude. I'm no longer interested in your views. Mapou
@Mapou
1. Do you agree that ‘to know something’ requires two opposite and complementary entities: a knower and a known?
Yes, but only as a matter of tautology. That is how we define "to know".
2. If the answer is yes, please identify/define knower and known.
I know that I'm hungry at the moment. So I am the knower, and I am the known. I know something about myself regarding a physical urge to eat that I can sense. I know that I am experiencing "the sensation of hunger". 3. If the answer to #1 is no, please explain your position. eigenstate
@ppolish,
Is consciousness energy or matter? Neither?
It's a form of computation, a complex form of computation. Is computation, whether in a very simple circuit, or as a the product of an enormous set of interactions of the nodes of neural network energy or matter? The answer would be that it includes both matter and energy. The brain is an energy-hungry machine. It generates a lot of waste heat, and requires lots of calories on a sustained basis to keep it functioning. So consciousness, as a function of the brain, is an energy-consuming process. Given the brain's physical structure, it subsists as a configuration of matter -- atoms, or fermions and bosons, if you want to really go all reductionist.
“Energy is not matter, so by definition it is not material. Energy can be converted to matter, and matter to energy. The conversion factor is the square of the speed of light.
That's not how "material" is used with respect to "materialism". Think about everything implicated by STEM as identified by physics -- space, time, energy, matter. Gravitional fields are not "matter", but are an integral part of STEM.
The ‘true nature of energy’ defies simple explanation. Thermodynamics says that the amount of energy in a closed system is conserved. Picture a hydrogen atom with its electron orbiting at a higher energy level (quantum number). The energy of this system is best represented by the potential energy of the electron in the electric field surrounding the proton in the nucleus, plus the kinetic energy of the electon’s orbital motion. Quantum mechanics tells us that electron can’t just decay into a slightly lower orbit like a satellite orbiting earth. Instead, it can only drop into an orbit at the next lower quantum number. That means the length of the electron orbit decreases by exactly one wavelength of the electron’s wavefunction. The electron then has less potential energy and less kinetic energy. The only way for this orbit change to happen is for the atom to emit a photon whose energy is exactly the difference between the energies of the two orbits. Do you call this photon energy or do you call it matter? A scientist who is careful with his words probably won’t call it either. It is a ‘particle’ which mediates the electromagnetic force. It has some properties of a particle and some properties of a wave. It has no rest mass and always travels at the speed of light. If it’s moving, it’s moving at the speed of light. If it’s not moving, it doesn’t exist. A photon can be thought of as a quantum or a packet of energy. We don’t speak of energy as governing the way material things interact. We think in terms of forces. Physical chemistry is the study of properties and interactions of atoms based on the structure of the atoms themselves. As two hydrogen atoms approach, they begin to repel because of the electrostatic repulsion between the two protons. However, once the electrons begin orbiting both nucleii instead of just one, the complete assembly has a lower total energy than the two independent atoms. This is why the H2 molecule forms. As you study physics, matter, and energy, keep your question in mind. You gradually gain a better understanding of how they work. As you do, you realize more and more that we really don’t know what matter and energy are.”
OK, not sure where this attaches to anything I've said here, but see above on "materialism" and STEM. Particle/wave duality, electromagnetic fields, thermodynamics, it's all "material" on "materialism". eigenstate
goodusername
Replace every molecule in my brain with an identical molecule in the same position and I believe I would still exist.
But as you mention, CharlieM's reference was to Theseus’s ship. So, it's not a question whether you survive, but whether "your self" exists. If you replace every molecule in your brain with an identical molecule in the same place and "your self" still exists, then your conscious self cannot be the molecules. Because even though "identical" they are a different set of molecules than the original. Silver Asiatic
Good username said in 61 ""In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained – every time – that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration… but of… something else?"" The same analogy could equally be applied to a Television. Reconstruct a TV set ,take it apart and put it back again and it will still broadcast the same tv stations .in fact most of the nde evidence is pointing towards the brain being the receiver for consciousness and you will be hard pressed to find one that doesnt. Nde point powerfully beyond the mind equals brain belief if materialists . wallstreeter43
Eigenstate says ""“The brain and the mind are connected”. This represents a category error. The mind is the brain, “mind” just being a handy term to focus on the *activity* of the brain, and “brain” useful in pointing at the structural aspects of the brain. Brain and mind are not “connected” as distinct entities. They are only connected in the sense that “walking” is an activity of the body. “Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity. Fail on the first step, Barry."" Actually Eigenstate , you are the one that failed here as every nde researcher disagrees with you as the evidence itself says that the mind is not caused by the brain. How do they know ? Well because some Nde's are happening during a time when the brain is non functional . Veridical Nde's are also happening . How can a person see without their eyes and also a very damaged or non functional ? Eigenstate you simply aren't up to date with all the information. It is you that has failed sir wallstreeter43
CharlieM,
The self is not the material body. The self persists but the material of the body is constantly changing.
Replace every molecule in my brain with an identical molecule in the same position and I believe I would still exist. But open my skull and stir my brain with a spoon and I believe I would cease to exist. In the first example, all the matter has been replaced. In the second, all the same matter remains. So why is the second lethal and not the first? Because it's the pattern of matter, i.e. information, that's important to our identity. So we might be in agreement.
For those who are aquainted with the UK comedy, ‘Only Fools and Horses’ the materialists here are in a similar position to Trigger, the road sweeper. He was given an award from the council for looking after his broom over the years. The fact that it had been given several new heads and several new handles was lost on him. He still believed that he was holding the same broom that he always held.
I'm not familiar with the show, but that's an interesting reference to Theseus's ship. goodusername
Having said that, there is neither red nor green nor blue in the brain or the environment. Color sensations are spirit stuff. They come from the true self. But I would not say they are "abstract" in the sense of non-existent. They certainly do exist in a different realm. Mapou
eigenstate, mathematical concepts are a unity. They do not become a multiplicity just because they are held in the minds of different individuals. My concept of an equilateral triangle is the very same one as your concept of it. If you think this is not the case and that there are differences can you tell me what they are? CharlieM
nkendall @87, Eigenstate is right that thoughts are represented in the brain. He is just wrong that the representations are self-conscious. Materialists are really monadists. And yet the universe is known to have supersymmetry. You can't have an electron without a positron or left without right or knower without known or vice versa. Mapou
Eigenstate, The brain cannot know itself. That would be a contradiction. To know anything, one needs a knower and a known. The two are opposites. IOW, the knower cannot be known and the known cannot know, BY DEFINITION. If physical matter in the brain is the known, something that is the opposite of physical matter must the knower. This is Logical Reasoning 101, no? Mapou
Eigenstate at 79. Forget it Eigenstate, I withdrawal the questions. Not because I have become disinterested but because you went on for 750 words meandering around and said absolutely nothing of substance. If you think that is any kind of an appropriate response then I am not interesting in anything further you have to say. For heaven sake man, you made the claim that all concepts are represented as brain states. And you said so emphatically. Get to the point. I am just asking you to tell me how that is done and while you are at it, tell me how those thoughts of yours arose in your brain and how they were rendered in your consciousness. Is it a specific set of neurons firing over a specific structure of synapses or what? Instead you claim a "maneuver" and go on and on about 6 month old babies and marbles. You spent the entire afternoon and evening nitpicking, obfuscating, insulting...everything but answering the central challenges to materialism that Barry put forth. nkendall
goodusername @61, You asked Barry,
"In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained – every time – that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration… but of… something else?"
Well the body is in a constant state of deconstruction/reconstruction, yet the self persists. From Stanford School of Medicine: "Every one of us completely regenerates our own skin every 7 days. A cut heals itself and disappears in a week or two. Every single cell in our skeleton is replaced every 7 years." The self is not the material body. The self persists but the material of the body is constantly changing. For those who are aquainted with the UK comedy, 'Only Fools and Horses' the materialists here are in a similar position to Trigger, the road sweeper. He was given an award from the council for looking after his broom over the years. The fact that it had been given several new heads and several new handles was lost on him. He still believed that he was holding the same broom that he always held. CharlieM
You know, as someone who researches AI and the brain, I disagree that there is no material representation of objects in the brain. One cannot consciously think of an object unless there is a cortical representation of the object that one can sense. I say this as a dualist. Consciousness requires both a knower and a known. There is no getting around this. We live in a yin-yang reality. Some spirit/soul believers make the mistake of believing that the mind is just the spirit. You are greatly mistaken. After all, what we are dealing with here is a dualism, not a monadism. Mapou
E's argument: concepts don't exist, just brain states representing concepts. Some part of your brain is tricked into thinking those other parts of your brain are concepts. Translation: one configuration of matter is "tricking" another configuration of matter. The problem is that it's a regress. A configuration of matter can't be tricked, only a mind can be tricked. So you are left trying to explain mind arising from brain by presupposing that a subset of the brain itself is a mind. You then have to recursively explain that all the way down to the level of chemistry. Good luck! NetResearchGuy
eigenstate writes,
In any case, if you can describe how you would measure the mass of a computing operation in a calculator, I will have good guide as to how to answer your question. Brains, like electric circuits that compute (the brain is an electrical circuit) have the capacity for a larger number of different states, all “mass constant” — this is the point in asking you about the mass of an “=” operation in a calculator. The system has a discrete mass, and a finite capacity for states, but the discrete states do not map to a “discrete mass”. If I’m wrong about this, your recipe for measuring the mass of the “=” operation in your handy calculator should be able to show this.
(my bold, Tim) . . . and I cite the whole thing as to avoid being labeled a quote-miner. I also cite it to point out that I am not erecting a strawman. This is simply what eigenstate wrote and I have to admit that I sort of lost interest in the rest of the thread as no one called him out on this bit of sophistry. (I must admit that I began only to skim many of the posts that followed.) AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we'll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM's cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question. All the sound and fury concerning the effect of brain on mind (see numerous posts on brain injury) as well as the curious definition of mind as not more than an activity analogous to walking is smoke and mirrors. In the first case, nobody denies that losing brain function will effect the mind any more than I might argue that eating a plate of cookies (with milk!) might change my attitude and thus change who I am. In the second case, calling the "I" which we all call ourselves nothing more than activity, simply secretes the materialist denial of the "person" into a "doing" (we often notice that doing is accompanied by persons, so it seems a logical connection, but it is not. It is a leap that makes no sense upon reflection. After all, I neither cease nor become myself by walking, so how can it be by the activities of the mind, unless only on strictly materialist understanding? Impossible.) But wait a minute, I have intentions all the time, like right now. . . goodbye. Tim
How does Eigenstate fit an entire horse in his brain when he "thinks" about it? That is some very good packing. Andre
@Barry,
I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only “meat with attitude.” Madness, sheer madness.
Well, the "other kinds of meat" you mention here are *muscles*, Barry. That's certainly an important and physical aspect of human physiology, but something quite different in structure and function from a brain. Nevertheless, I won't interfere with your shock and horror at the prospect of "meat with attitude". That does carry the kind of mojo that is both enlightening and properly alarming for you, given the worldview you've come to adopt. Don't blame the messenger, dude. And shaking your head and declaring it "madness" doesn't change the reality around you, Barry (that would be a form of sorcery if it worked, yeah?). Reality is what it is. It's a little less elegant than other formulations like "the universe experiencing itself", but for you, I'd say the more visceral the confrontation you have with the world outside of your brain/body, the better! eigenstate
Barry,
I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only “meat with attitude.” Madness, sheer madness.
The only way I can interpret this statement is that you believe that a human brain can be replaced by a ribeye steak, and the result would still be a being with a mind. And to believe otherwise is sheer madness. If you don't think such a transplant would result in a conscious being, it would be interesting to hear why, considering that the brain apparently isn't unique. goodusername
@nkendall,
Anybody seen Eigenstat? I have been looking for him. Twice now I have asked the same questions and gotten no response; yet I see him around. I have several other very detailed questions about how the brain could do all these marvelous things he is claiming.
Have at it. Maybe you'll actually engage on this. We don't have to (and won't, I expect), but can establish a different pattern here that actually involves some engagement on the merits. Maybe? If you have something of substance to put to me that you think I've ignored, by all means just point it out, link to it, etc. I'm not so much a chump that I can be baited into "keep 'em busy with lots of homework requests" kinds of maneuvers (for example, occasionally people will ask me to "layout out my complete theory of cognition (or evolution, or...) in detail as a predicate for discussion -- that won't fly), but I do like good sharp questions, and doubly appreciate those who at least attempt to answer when the receive the same.
Regarding your comment at 14: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.”
I would like to go through this in some detail: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in your brain? How is it registered in your consciousness?
Hmmm. That actually sounds suspiciously like the "maneuver" I just motioned toward, above. If memory serves, you were the guy that claimed that dreams were a proof against materialism because the the "HD Theater in our minds" could not be provisioned with enough streaming content and throughput by physical capacities of the brain? Without getting into that question here (!) this question sounds a bit like my asking you to layout your model of visual representation in the brain as a matter of "opening questions". Never mind that you likely don't have such a model, I think you can appreciate the enormous scope of such a question. Which is just to say, have it, but break things down into manageable chunks. Just a couple comments on the concept of "four" in lieu of a 26 page encyclical on concept formation. Six month old infants are able to discriminate between groups based number, provided the differences are large. For example, 6 month olds can distinguish between a group of 10 marbles and a group of 20 marbles reliably, but not a group of 10 marbles from a group of 12 marbles. This evidence from such young infants suggests an innate (or at least available at/near birth) conceptual capacity for building mental models of reality that contain and use mathematical relationships. "Four-ness" would be an example of this kind of relationship-holding as conceptual content. "Four-ness" is not a property of the four marbles I place on the table in front of a 1 year old child (or in front of a 35 year old adult, for that matter), but is conceptualized in the brain as a description of the relationship between objects -- what psychologists would call logico-grammatical knowledge. The reason I start with infants and children is because these are fundamental concepts that demonstrably obtain in normally-developing children at very young ages, indicating both an innate capacity for logico-grammatical knowledge and demonstrated skill in applying those concepts, utilizing the relationship-between-objects structure of the concepts in the first few years of growth (and in some rudimentary cases, in the first few months). So "four-ness" as a concept develops as a product of the constant model-building and model-refinement that humans begin at birth (and before), which is reinforced with consistent experiences with more and different experiences with objects as they make their way through the toddler to the pre-school years. Maybe that's a enough of a start to get you connecting into what you want to pursue here, maybe not. But please bear in mind that I'm happy to explain/defend/elaborate, but not available to throw darts at the dartboard over and over in hopes of stumbling upon your target.
These are just the high level questions, I have many details that need to covered.
The details are a better place to start. It's impractical and borderline trollish to ask for a treatise on cognition as the predicate for your detailed questions. Not accusing you of that here, but it's a risk in what you're asking, even if it's unintentional. I suggest going right for some concrete, detail oriented questions. That is much more likely to produce interesting and substantial discussions, here. eigenstate
Three questions to the materialists on this forum. 1. Do you agree that 'to know something' requires two opposite and complementary entities: a knower and a known? 2. If the answer is yes, please identify/define knower and known. 3. If the answer to #1 is no, please explain your position. Mapou
E @ 75, thanks for the clarification. I take it E does not believe other types of meat (e.g., ribeye steaks, chicken breasts, etc.) have the capacity to deny propositions. Under materialism, the human brain is a unique kind of meat. It is the only "meat with attitude." Madness, sheer madness. Barry Arrington
E @ 73: I guess we can add "patronizing bastard" to "asshat." Barry Arrington
E @ 71: What is this “brain/mind” of which you speak? Is there some physical thing in your head other than your brain?
No. As i said quite clearly upthread, the mind is the activity of the brain, in the same sense that "walking" is an activity of my body. I can go find the post number and quote it here if you insist, but it's neither hard to find, nor the least bit vague in making this point. eigenstate
Anybody seen Eigenstat? I have been looking for him. Twice now I have asked the same questions and gotten no response; yet I see him around. I have several other very detailed questions about how the brain could do all these marvelous things he is claiming. Regarding your comment at 14: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.” I would like to go through this in some detail: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in your brain? How is it registered in your consciousness? These are just the high level questions, I have many details that need to covered. nkendall
E, I’m beginning to recognize a pattern here. E repeats Barry’s claim from the OP. E says, “that’s just stupid. I win.” OK E. If it makes you feel better.
I only have concluded that stupidity is a plausible explanation in one case, here, Barry. Rereading it, it's hard to find a more charitable, yet plausible explanation. Stupidity is almost certainly not the fundamental or even significant problem, here. There a substrate of bad values, and more than anything, just a lack of intellectual curiosity and an inclination toward intellectual laziness -- see your "tells" you signal regular with your gratuitous claims of "obviousness" and "of course!" for propositions that can only be viewed as matters-of-course as an exercise in apathy toward the subject matter. I feel much better engaging on the substance, even and especially when there are sharp points of strong disagreement. Your modus operandus is really just a form of trolling, so it's primarily an exercise in banal aggression. Happens all the time, can't be helped, and sometimes the trolls have the admin password to the site. I invite you to engage on the subject. Lots of interesting controversies to take up. But you have to invest some thought, and maybe a little creativity in your posts. You don't think enough of your supporters or you adversaries to do that, on any extended reading of your work. That's unfortunate. You have now established a very solid pattern, a strong commitment to the Composition Fallacy. I don't think that reflects stupidity. It just reflects laziness. I gave you a clear example of the problematic nature of your 'bag of chemicals' reflex with the example of Glucose, Formaldehyde, and Acetic Acid. Structure matters. I predict I won't have to wait long to see the Composition Fallacy trotted out again in one of your posts: since atoms can't be conscious, humans can't be conscious since they are made of atoms, etc. That's not a problem of mental horsepower, it's just intransigence. You're more than able, Barry, way over-qualified in terms of mental abilities to understand and engage. It's just not a goal for you, that is quite apparent in the body of your posts. That's your prerogative, but don't pretend the criticism you get is somehow anchored in the belief you can't do better (my 'stupid' exception above, which I stand by, notwithstanding). You can. You just don't have any interest in doing better, by all indications you put out here. eigenstate
E @ 71: What is this "brain/mind" of which you speak? Is there some physical thing in your head other than your brain? Barry Arrington
@Barry,
If I am understanding you, the meat inside your head denies that an immaterial mind exists. Can you clarify something for me? Is it all of the meat in your head that denies that immaterial minds exist or is it just some subset of the meat in your head?
Assuming you mean "brain/mind" by meat, then a denial would be, as I understand it, a function of the brain as a whole, integrating sensory experience, counterfactual contemplation, logical analysis, language formulation and articulation, motor signals to various parts of the body to communicate said denial. Just reading, understanding, considering and replying to your question here implicates a large number of different functions of the brain. That said, I'm sure there are parts that aren't involved even so. So the denial would represent many parts of the brain working in concert, but not every part, and not all at the same time, necessarily. eigenstate
Is consciousness energy or matter? Neither? "Energy is not matter, so by definition it is not material. Energy can be converted to matter, and matter to energy. The conversion factor is the square of the speed of light. The 'true nature of energy' defies simple explanation. Thermodynamics says that the amount of energy in a closed system is conserved. Picture a hydrogen atom with its electron orbiting at a higher energy level (quantum number). The energy of this system is best represented by the potential energy of the electron in the electric field surrounding the proton in the nucleus, plus the kinetic energy of the electon's orbital motion. Quantum mechanics tells us that electron can't just decay into a slightly lower orbit like a satellite orbiting earth. Instead, it can only drop into an orbit at the next lower quantum number. That means the length of the electron orbit decreases by exactly one wavelength of the electron's wavefunction. The electron then has less potential energy and less kinetic energy. The only way for this orbit change to happen is for the atom to emit a photon whose energy is exactly the difference between the energies of the two orbits. Do you call this photon energy or do you call it matter? A scientist who is careful with his words probably won't call it either. It is a 'particle' which mediates the electromagnetic force. It has some properties of a particle and some properties of a wave. It has no rest mass and always travels at the speed of light. If it's moving, it's moving at the speed of light. If it's not moving, it doesn't exist. A photon can be thought of as a quantum or a packet of energy. We don't speak of energy as governing the way material things interact. We think in terms of forces. Physical chemistry is the study of properties and interactions of atoms based on the structure of the atoms themselves. As two hydrogen atoms approach, they begin to repel because of the electrostatic repulsion between the two protons. However, once the electrons begin orbiting both nucleii instead of just one, the complete assembly has a lower total energy than the two independent atoms. This is why the H2 molecule forms. As you study physics, matter, and energy, keep your question in mind. You gradually gain a better understanding of how they work. As you do, you realize more and more that we really don't know what matter and energy are." ppolish
eigenstate, I'm about to sign off for the night. I have in mind the concept of a black hole. You read my post and you see the reference to a black hole. Are you thinking of the same black hole I am thinking of? Mung
E, I'm beginning to recognize a pattern here. E repeats Barry's claim from the OP. E says, "that's just stupid. I win." OK E. If it makes you feel better. Barry Arrington
@Barry,
5. The unified consciousness is immaterial. Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.
What you've said here neither precludes neuroscience from addressing it or developing strong models for human consciousness --- unified in practice or just seeming so phenomenologically -- nor argues for the immateriality of our our consciousness. So there's no rebuttal to offer, here: you're "The unified consciousness is immaterial" isn't implicated by anything you've said. I might just as well shrug and stipulate, arguendo, that neuroscience indeed can never get traction on the Binding Problem. So now what? That stipulation in no way supports your claim. Further, if I grant, again, arguendo (sorry, but your penchant for misrepresentation in these discussions make such pedantic qualifications necessary!) that: "intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity". You're no closer to your claim #5 then when you started. This paragraph "isn't even wrong". eigenstate
E, If I am understanding you, the meat inside your head denies that an immaterial mind exists. Can you clarify something for me? Is it all of the meat in your head that denies that immaterial minds exist or is it just some subset of the meat in your head? Barry Arrington
E: First off, there exist no coherent materialistic scientific models of cognition or consciousness. NONE. I've read about several such models, and they all include massive explanatory gaps that are glossed over. That, to me, is the strongest scientific evidence that materialism is false -- that science can't begin to explain mind. A corollary of the fact that there are no such models is that for any model an expert in the field propounds, there are other experts in the field who call the first expert's theory garbage. It's much worse than the disagreements between evolutionists. Every materialist I've ever debated with cannot see where the poofery in the models lie, and just picks one of the selection of laughable models and goes with it. As far as I can tell in this debate, you can't understand the distinction between a concept and a representation of a concept. You basically deny that concepts exist, and assert that only representations of a concept exist. The problem is that to make this denial, you used abstract concepts/reasoning to do it. In other words, your very argument requires the use of a construct that you claim doesn't exist, and is thus self referentially incoherent. If you believe it is not, explain how you would make a piece of physical computer software store a concept in the sense your mind does. Let's say the concept of a "tree". I could put the dictionary definition of a tree, a bunch of pictures of a tree, an algorithm that can recognize trees, and a bunch of facts about trees on a computer, and the computer still doesn't understand "tree" as a concept. In other words, no amount of physical representations of a concept equals a concept. Period. This is where you will go into poofery land (emergence) and claim the problem is that the computer just needs LOTS of concepts (well those don't exist -- representations) in it at once, then it becomes a mind. You won't explain why adding more representations of concepts matters. To give another example, a computer can play chess, but it has no idea chess is a game. How would you explain to a computer the concept of a game? Something intelligent agents like humans do for fun. Uh oh, explaining that one concept requires you to explain a bunch of other concepts, like "intelligent" and "fun" (and "do" for that matter), which are far more difficult to explain. It's basically a regress where to store one concept requires other concepts. Minds understand concepts as atomic and specific, and a representation can never be either of those things. A child can grasp a concept immediately without having it be expressed in terms of other concepts. A computer can't grasp anything ever, nor can any other purely physical object. NetResearchGuy
UDEditors: E's asshat mean-spirited mockery of KF and merely asshat mockery of SB and myself deleted. eigenstate
@mung
eigenstate, so do you also hold that there is no aspect of thought or “mind,” no concept, that is not itself composed of matter?
Correct. To put it a way that more clearly indicates my view, any and all mental concepts I understand to be physical phenomena, natural activities of the brain.
If you and I share the same concept or thought or idea, that is incoherent unless we share the same matter in doing so? Thank you
"Same" is problematic as a term, here, but that's a good question. You and I may both reliably identify the same objects as "apple" or "not-apple", and we find very close similarities in what we might draw on a page if asked to "draw an apple". But these are isomorphisms, similarities to some to degree or another, not identities. That means that we can demonstrate "communicability" between our respective concepts of "apple", but they are not the "same" in any formal or sense of physical structure (for example, there is no 'magic configuration' of neurons that assembled in some particular fashion inherently "mean" or reify the concept of "apple"). So, no two instances of concepts are identical, and can't be, based on how neural patterns develop and operate in the brain. Even so, strong enough matches exist so that we can communicate, or respond in similarly predictable ways -- as I said, choosing the same objects presented to each of us independently as "apple" or "not-apple".
p.s. I apologize if this has already been asked. I haven’t caught up on the entire conversation yet.
Don't think so, but no worries either way. eigenstate
Just plain good common sense indeed. Our thoughts, about horses etc, are not material things. Now the horse is part of our memory. We have a material thing that includes the gorse. when we think of the horse we are actually observing a memory of the horse concept. Yet its our soul/heart thatr is doing the observing of this memory. Deniers of the soul must invent something in our head that does the observing. Robert Byers
Barry,
Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind. In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not.
If the various components that make up a human body were mixed together, I don't believe that the pile of matter would be conscious, think, or feel, unless the atoms were configured into specific configurations. I believe that the reason for this is that consciousness and mind (and life) are a property of those components only with certain configurations. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that you also believe that if configured in certain ways that the pile of matter would attain consciousness and mind. In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained - every time - that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration... but of... something else? If you believe that the body in the preceding thought experiment does attain consciousness/mind each time it is reconstructed, how do you believe that the consciousness/mind is actually attained (since you don't believe that matter, of any configuration, can actually produce consciousness/mind)? goodusername
eigenstate
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for “horse”.
How do you get from the horse to the concept of a horse? Where does the concept of horse come from and what is its relationship to the actual horse that is being conceived (of)?
The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are.
Does a person with a million concepts weigh more than a person will a thousand concepts all other things being equal? If not, why not? Since all physical things are extended in space, does that mean that the concept of a large physical thing, such as a galaxy, takes up more room in the head than the concept of a smaller physical thing, such as a horse? If not, why not? If concepts and brain states were physical, they would be constantly changing. So, is the concept of horse and its attendant brain state always changing? If so, which concept would be representative of the horse, the early brain state or the late brain state?
Map != Territory. These are novice errors.
So, you agree that the map is not the territory. Excellent. Define the map and define the territory. Why are they different? How can they even be different under materialism? StephenB
Ad hominem: The idea that ‘the mind is the brain’ is only welcomed by those who suffer from boundlessly low self-esteem. Daniel King
Eigenstate: The mind is the brain.
The idea that ‘the mind is the brain’ is only welcomed by those who suffer from boundlessly low self-esteem. If someone holds that his rationality is first and foremost dictated by blind chemical processes, then what IQ score can such a person expect? Box
Repeat... eigenstate @14 Regarding your comment: “You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts… They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol.” Walk me through this: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in the brain? How is it registered in your consciousness? nkendall
eigenstate, I have to confess, I changed my first response to you in this thread to something less insulting and less confrontational. :D I am happy I chose to do so. Interesting discussion. Mung
eigenstate, so do you also hold that there is no aspect of thought or "mind," no concept, that is not itself composed of matter? If you and I share the same concept or thought or idea, that is incoherent unless we share the same matter in doing so? Thank you p.s. I apologize if this has already been asked. I haven't caught up on the entire conversation yet. Mung
@Mung
eigenstate, thank you for your answers.
You are welcome, sir. eigenstate
@Barry,
4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial. As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).
If you're right, Barry, than water is necessarily not wet. Is water wet, even though a "bag of hydrogen or oxygen atoms" is not wet, Barry? This is yet another conspicuous instance of the Composition Fallacy. eigenstate
eigenstate, thank you for your answers. Mung
@Barry,
3. Qualia are immaterial. Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory. Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.
Doesn't follow. Restored color-sensing in her retinas (new physical inputs) provides new information to the brain and new percepts to integrate into memories and the process of visual integration. She can't have complete information about the sensing of red if she doesn't the physical capabilities of perceiving red-as-red (and not as grayscale gradients). I believe this is the position of Jackson, the originator of this thought experiment. The structural problem in the thought experiment, eventually identified by Jackson himself, is an equivocation on "know". Mary has new "circuitry available" for memory and visual processing, but this is not propositional knowledge. She has new abilities, but doesn't "know" anything she didn't know before, propositionally. This formulation lacks a crucial aspect of Jackson's "Mary's Room" argument, name that Mary has complete access to all available information about vision, perception, cognition in humans. Here's Jackson's own presentation:
She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal chords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’.…
As you've stated it, it's not a challenge. I've responded to what you must have meant to render as a substantial challenge - Jackson's Knowledge Argument. In any case, this is a well-worn debate that isn't even correctly presented here, let alone offering something new agains this background: Qualia: The Knowledge Argument eigenstate
"Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness." It depends on what you consider the problem of consciousness. Two problems are: 1) Chalmer's hard problem. 2) The empirical evidence from psychical research and parapsychology that the brain does not produce consciousness. That consciousness is non-physical is a direct conclusion from the evidence produced by psychical research and from parapsychology. That conclusion also helps to explain the hard problem. There is no way to explain subjective experiences, qualia, why the color blue looks like blue by means of any physical process. If consciousness is non-physical then it can have properties unknown to physics that could explain qualia. Jim Smith
I can't imagine anyone even conceiving of a material mind. Quite barmy. It's like trying to imagine, 'material music' or 'material poetry'. Synesthesia to the power of infinity. Axel
Eigenstate: This represents a category error.
Given materialism, to say that some concept 'represents a category error' is making a category error. Obviously thoughts are nothing but physical processes and only a fool like Eigenstate would hold that there are errant physical processes. This brings us to the point that there are no true and untrue physical processes and consequently no true and untrue thoughts. From which we can deduce that materialism makes no sense whatsoever.... Box
Good grief E! Did you even read the first sentence of the Wiki article you linked to:
Uh, yes. I am familiar. I brought the term into the conversation, and provided the link. Cartesian Theater doe NOT refer to "Cartesian Metaphysics", but rather the remaining intuition about the immaterial mind -- it's not a substance or soul error, as per Descartes ideas on the matter. It's the homunculus error, that bit that persists, and which you continue to propound. And it's not just you -- you're more of a thoroughgoing dualist so far as I can tell (do you believe in an immortal/immaterial soul?). Many putative materialists unwittingly or otherwise indulge their "homunculus intuitions", unaware that they are committing the same error you are. They do not get trapped by the "soul intuition", perhaps, but they still imagine minds as "Cartesian Theaters". eigenstate
E, I have to go to a board meeting. You might take a stab at answering SB's questions at 29. Barry Arrington
E @ 40:
Do you suppose you have immaterial thoughts, an immaterial mind that interacts with your brain, but that is NOT the brain? If so, this applies. Again, you’re just not pay attention to what is being said, here.
E, go back and read the OP where I address this very issue. And you say I am the one who is not paying attention. Barry Arrington
Quantum Physics showed that matter does not exist. Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM JimFit
@Barry, Ok, you edited your comment after I replied to it. Here's the new version:
E, is your calculator conscious? If not, then why do you assume that it has anything to do with consciousness.
I'm asking as a matter of giving you answer to your question about the mass of a concept or thought? It's not clear that a thought as a physical phenomenon has a measurable mass, that "mass for a thought", is a coherent concept. If it is, then we should be able to gauge the mass of much simpler electrical/computing operations. If you can describe how you would validate the physicality of a calculator operation by measuring its mass, I will have a good guide how to answer your question. Failing that, I don't thing "mass" is derivable as a quantity for an electrical/computing operation. We can measure the mass of the computing machinery itself, but the electrical state changes don't have "mass boundaries" to measure, so far as I'm aware. If I'm wrong, your short exposition on measuring the mass of a calculator will demonstrate how to apply that to the brain in support of the idea that a thought has mass, in efforts to "massify" concepts and thoughts as you requested. That is what it has do with consciousness. eigenstate
Good grief E! Did you even read the first sentence of the Wiki article you linked to:
'Cartesian theater' is a derisive term coined by philosopher and cognitive scientist Daniel Dennett to refer pointedly to a defining aspect of what he calls Cartesian materialism, which he considers to be the often unacknowledged remnants of Cartesian dualism in modern materialistic theories of the mind.
Barry Arrington
@Barry,
E, is your calculator conscious?
No. How would you measure the mass of a calculator operation, Barry? Or do suppose the calculator's computations is "immaterial" as a "massless" activity? eigenstate
@Barry,
That’s funny. As the OP makes abundantly clear, I reject Cartesian metaphysics; yet E tells me my failure stems from accepting it.
Good grief, Barry. "Cartesian Theater" != "Cartesian Metaphysics". See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater "Cartesian Theater" points at the lingering intuitions about "immaterial mind" that remain in popular thinking about cognition as contrasted to the Cartesian metaphysics of an immaterial soul, or "maximal dualism". Descartes' metaphysics have been largely abandoned, even by most theists and other dualists (see for instance the prevalence of "property dualism" over "substance dualism" today), but "Cartesian Theater" refers to the intuition about an "homuculus" that "sees" brain activity (hence the word "theater" in the term) and does the thinking apart from the brain and based on what is on the "screen of the brain". Do you suppose you have immaterial thoughts, an immaterial mind that interacts with your brain, but that is NOT the brain? If so, this applies. Again, you're just not pay attention to what is being said, here. eigenstate
E, is your calculator conscious? If not, then why do you assume that it has anything to do with consciousness. Barry Arrington
@Barry,
eigenstate, as I said previously, it is no one (including you) actually believes the immaterial mind does not exist. When one says they don’t believe the immaterial mind exists they start saying insane things like “the concept of “four” is a physical brain state.”
It's worse than that, Barry. "Immaterial mind" is not even meaningful, and that problem notwithstanding, it's incoherent as soon as you suppose it interacts materially, for then it's by definition a part of materialist ontology. Declaring it's "obviousness to Barry" and it's "insanity" are just auto-biographical revelations about you, Barry. They aren't substantive to the question of how cognition works, are not probative with respect to models of consciousness. It's just self-indulgent fluff. It's your blog, you're welcome to indulge yourself all you like, but it's still fluff.
All physical things have mass. I will believe that the concept of four is a physical brain state when you tell me how much it weighs.
If you have a handheld calculator, and you press the "=" key, electrical signals fire in the calculator. It's a physical process, well known, observable, measure in terms of electrical voltage, etc. What is the "mass" of an operation of the calculator in your hand? It's not clear what "mass" applies to, or how it would be measured for such an operation. But if you suppose that an "=" operation from pressing the key on the calculator is a a physical process, and there for "has a mass", then your recipe for measuring the mass of that event will give me the basis for your measurement of a thought. An electron in that calculator, or in your brain has a discrete mass, but the electron is not "owned" by any function of the calculator; electrons travel through the circuits and effect state changes, but are not "mass of the operation", anymore than electrons traveling through your synapses are "mass for a particular thought". To they extent they are "owned" by a computing operation or a human thought, they are ephemeral, and transient. In any case, if you can describe how you would measure the mass of a computing operation in a calculator, I will have good guide as to how to answer your question. Brains, like electric circuits that compute (the brain is an electrical circuit) have the capacity for a larger number of different states, all "mass constant" --- this is the point in asking you about the mass of an "=" operation in a calculator. The system has a discrete mass, and a finite capacity for states, but the discrete states do not map to a "discrete mass". If I'm wrong about this, your recipe for measuring the mass of the "=" operation in your handy calculator should be able to show this. ETA: blockquote eigenstate
eigenstate @14 Regarding your comment: "You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts... They are not the same thing. The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You’ve conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol." Walk me through this: How did that above composite thought originate in your brain? How is it represented in the brain? How is it registered in your consciousness? nkendall
E @ 10
You can’t (I can’t) feel yourself thinking, anymore than you can feel a neurosurgeon’s gloved finger poking around in your cerebral cortex . . .
E @ 14
The concept of “four”, [is] still a physical brain state . . .
I see. So I can’t feel the surgeon touching my cerebral cortex, but the surgeon can feel the abstract concept of four that is a physical thing in my brain. :-) Madness. Sheer madness. Barry Arrington
E @ 32: The failure is the intuition that this is an immaterial “thing” happening in Cartesian Theater in our minds.
That's funny. As the OP makes abundantly clear, I reject Cartesian metaphysics; yet E tells me my failure stems from accepting it.
Barry Arrington
E @ 27:
If the concept “2+2=4? were wholly accounted for as a physical brain state, how would the world be different, your view?
I will answer this question when you answer this question: If circles were square, how would the world be different in your view? Barry Arrington
eigenstate, as I said previously, no one (including you) actually believes the immaterial mind does not exist. When someone says they don't believe the immaterial mind exists, the next thing they do is start saying insane things like "the concept of "four" is a physical brain state." I will believe that the concept of four is a physical brain state when you tell me how much it weighs. In the mean time, perhaps you can answer SB's questions at 29. Also, calm down son. Your posts are the virtual equivalent of screaming and spewing droplets of spittle. Barry Arrington
@Barry,
Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock.
Structure matters, Barry. This is fundamental to understanding the world around you. Here's an easy to understand example that demonstrates your error in thinking about this: Formaldehyde, Acetic Acid, and Glucose all have the same empirical formula: CH20. This means that each of these molecules uses carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the ratio of 1C, 2H and one O. Formaldehyde has just one copy of the set: CH2O. Acetic acid uses two copies of the set: C2H4O2. Glucose uses six copies of the set: C6H12O6 So if you have a "bag" with a million carbon atoms, 2 million hydrogen atoms, and a million oxygen atoms, what do you have? Undefined until the structure of their combination is specified. These raw materials can be assembled into all formaldehyde, all glucose or all ascetic acid, or any mix of the three molecules. Whatever combination you choose, the structure matters. On one structure, formaldehyde, on another, glucose. Same raw materials, all that differs is the structure the atoms are configured with. And yet, from these same atoms, mirabile dictu! compounds with very different characteristics and properties (imagine the glucose in your body getting switched out for formaldehyde -- it's all the same atoms, and in the same ratios!) result. Same kinds of atoms. Same ratios. All that differs is the structure. And the structure makes all the difference. If you can understand this simple bit of pedagogy, you will understand why your claim here doesn't follow. One cannot assert that what is true of the diffuse components of a structured whole is true of the structured whole. If your line of thinking here, glucose and formaldehyde and acetic acid would be the same compounds.
Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.
There's that weasel word, again -- "obviously". When a materialist -- say a thoroughgoing eliminativist like Patricia Churchland -- suggests that intentionality does not exist, or beliefs don't exist, they are not denying the phenomena, but rather our intuitive notions about those phenomena. In other words, what Barry supposes is obvious about "beliefs" -- for example that they are "immaterial thoughts" is mistaken, misconceived. The brain state that corresponds with "belief" exists, uncontroversial for Churchland, but is just not like what traditional human intuitions suppose. Again, the failure point is not in identifying a phenomenon we might describe as "belief" or "about-ness" toward a referent concept or object. The failure is the intuition that this is an immaterial "thing" happening in Cartesian Theater in our minds. In terms of intentionality, we have no empirical basis for maintaining the idea that our thoughts have a discrete sentence-like structure as propositions. Rather, that we must articulate them into communicable language constructs, and this with error, difficulty and ambiguity hazards. We don't think the way our naïve intuition commonly suggests, on the scientific view of human cognition. Denials of "belief" and "intentionality" and even "consciousness", then, are denials of veridicality of our intuitions about these phenomena, not denials of the phenomena themselves. They are real, physical, and increasingly observable/testable phenomena; they just don't resemble Barry's "obvious" intuitions about those phenomena. eigenstate
Carp, you are missing the point. Although it is blatantly obvious if you removed both frontal lobes, and thus severely compromised the ability of consciousness to be received in the brain, that would cause severe impairment. I did not claim otherwise. The point you missed is that the whole person stays intact even though an entire hemisphere was removed. This, to put it mildly is NOT expected under materialistic presuppositions as was made evident by the neurosurgeons 'awe', “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Moreover: The Case for the Soul – InspiringPhilosophy – (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz’s work) – Oct. 2014 – video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot even begin to explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 bornagain77
eigenstate Your sarcasm is evident proof that you know nothing about traditional metaphysics. This obviously explains why you are a materialist-evolutionist-atheist. Good luck. niwrad
eigenstate
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for “horse”.
How do you get from the horse to the concept of a horse? Where does the concept of horse come from and what is its relationship to the actual horse that is being conceived?
The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are.
Does a person with a trillion concepts weigh more than a person will a million concepts all other things being equal? If not, why not? Since all physical things are extended in space, does that mean that the concept of a large physical thing, such as a galaxy, takes up more room in the head than the concept of a smaller physical thing, such as a horse? That sounds kind of dangerous. If concepts and brain states were physical, they would be constantly changing. So, is the concept of horse and its attendant brain state always changing? If so, which concept would be representative of the horse, the early state or the late state?
Map != Territory. These are novice errors.
So, you agree that the map is not the territory. Excellent. Define the map and define the territory. Why are they different? Don't just throw words around, tell us what they mean. (I can answer all of my own questions. Can you answer any of them?) StephenB
There is no vicious regress problem either. The seeing chain is: the object is seen by the eye, the eye is seen by the mind, finally the mind is seen by the Self, which is identical to the unique unlimited Principle of all (symbolically, the “all-seeing Eye” inscribed into the triangle).
Lol. OK. Well, no more commentary needed on that, then! :-) eigenstate
Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there.
Why not? You've given no reason for supposing this to be the case, let alone adopting this view. If the concept "2+2=4" were wholly accounted for as a physical brain state, how would the world be different, your view?
2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious?
These are different forms of representation. Why would we think pixel-representation would be cognitive representation. You are aware that neural networks are not LED arrays, yeah?
Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.
As a philosophy professor once wrote on my paper: Using "obviously" more than rarely is a sign of problems in your thinking". On the burden of proof, you've missed the denied premiss that inheres in the term "materialist". A materialist by definition does not recognize the existence of "immaterial" anything, or that the "immaterial mind" or "immaterial anything" are even meaningful concepts. So, if you can get a materialist to even argue about who carries the burden of proof on this question, you have conclusive evidence that you are not dealing with a materialist in the first place. You don't have to be a materialist to understand the concepts and implications of the paradigm. I discuss and debate with many theists and other dualists who can understand the materialist paradigm as a paradigm. You can do it! eigenstate
eigenstate
If the mind “sees” the brain, then you have a vicious regress problem, unavoidably. This is the Homunculus error. If your (immaterial) mind “sees” the brain (never mind for now the problematic nature of “sees”, or available alternatives: “perceive”, “sense”, all terms that are inherently material concepts), what “sees” the mind during self-contemplation?
There is no such thing as self-contemplation, or any other self-action. Nihil agit se ipsum. There is no vicious regress problem either. The seeing chain is: the object is seen by the eye, the eye is seen by the mind, finally the mind is seen by the Self, which is identical to the unique unlimited Principle of all (symbolically, the "all-seeing Eye" inscribed into the triangle). niwrad
bornagain77:
If the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a ‘person’ should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a ‘person’, as they were before, but that is not the case.
Try removing the front half of the brain which would include both frontal lobes and you will see a big difference in that person. By removing a hemisphere of the brain which seems to be a mirror image of the half that's left, you would expect not that much of a change. It would be like removing a backup drive from a computer. If however you remove half of each drive, the computer is dead. Carpathian
although it is impossible for the material to produce that which is immaterial, it is not impossible for that which is perceived to be immaterial to produce that which is material. Moreover, that is exactly what quantum mechanics reveals to us. i.e. That which is material/visible comes into existence from that which is perceived to be immaterial/invisible
The visible comes into existence from the invisible: Quantum Physics and Relativity 2: – Antoine Suarez PhD – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxuOE2Bo_i0&list=UUVmgTa2vbopdjpMNAQBqXHw
Of related note to the 'immaterial realm', higher dimensions are invisible to our ’3-Dimensional’ sight: This following video explains why higher dimensions are invisible to our 3 dimensional sight quite clearly:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE&feature=player_detailpage#t=25 of note: The preceding video is the lead off video on the outreach page of Dr. Anton Zeilinger’s quantum group in Vienna: https://vcq.quantum.at/outreach/multimedia/videos.html
Thus materialists simply have no basis in science for believing that the 'immaterial/invisible' does not exist, since what is perceived to be the material/visible realm is dependent on the invisible/immaterial realm for its own existence in the first place. bornagain77
And any interaction of something immaterial with something physical is incoherent, not just immaterial mind interacting with physical brain?
The incoherence obtains as soon as you posit "interaction" between "immaterial [anything]" and "material [anything]". "Immaterial" as a standalone concept is not incoherent, strictly speaking, as there is nothing to "hold together with". It's an undefined concept, but it's not applied to anything problematic that renders it incoherent ("incoherent" meaning that it "holds together" conceptually. It's not even incoherent, we might say, along the the lines of a putative proposition being "not even wrong". When you connect an "immaterial something" to a "material something", you have concepts that do not and cannot hold together -- incoherence.
eigenstate
eig and carp:
"If we split the brain we can see two distinct “selves” emerge — whoops!"
Here is a first person account of the split-brain experiment in which the person in the experiment testifies to being 'one' person although his actions were split:
"BTW, with regards to your citation of the split-brain experiments (and people who suffer from that due to injury, etc). I was involved in one of those split-brain experiments myself. (Which is possible by temporarily numbing the corpus callosum.) And believe me, it was the damnedest thing. The thing is, even though different parts of my brain were acting as if they had no knowledge of “each other”, behind it all was still “me”, consciously experiencing the strange disconnection. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/#comment-460565
As well, The second video of the following two videos deals specifically with your false 'two souls' claim:
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Case for the Soul: Refuting Physicalist Objections - video Computers vs. Qualia, Libet and 'Free won't', Split Brain (unified attention of brain despite split hemispheres, visual and motion information is shared between the two hemispheres despite the hemispheres being split), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9Pk
Moreover, the results of hemispherectomies fly in direct contradiction of your materialistic model,,, If the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a 'person' should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a 'person', as they were before, but that is not the case. The ‘whole person’ stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment:
Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zBrY77mBNg Dr. Gary Mathern - What Can You Do With Half A Brain? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrKijBx_hAw Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: - 1997 Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Dr. John Freeman, the director of the Johns Hopkins Pediatric Epilepsy Center, said he was dumbfounded at the ability of children to regain speech after losing the half of the brain that is supposedly central to language processing. ''It's fascinating,'' Dr. Freeman said. ''The classic lore is that you can't change language after the age of 2 or 3.'' But Dr. Freeman's group has now removed diseased left hemispheres in more than 20 patients, including three 13-year-olds whose ability to speak transferred to the right side of the brain in much the way that Alex's did.,,, http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html
In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study:
"Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole
Thus once again the claims of materialists are found, when examined in detail, to be false. bornagain77
Wow. This is a fast and furious thread. Mapou
Carpathian, Have you ever had any half-memories of your mother? Just wondering. Mung
Presented without comment: E @ 14:
The concept of “four” [is] a physical brain state . . .
E @ 16
Well, at this point, it’s hard to see this anything but just stupidity on your part being the problem, Barry.
Barry Arrington
@niwrad
Mind “sees” the brain (it can conceive, imagine, analyse, study, design it), while the inverse doesn’t hold. Walking can do nothing of the sort wrt body, because walking is simply a movement of the body. While walking is lower than body, mind is higher than brain.
If the mind "sees" the brain, then you have a vicious regress problem, unavoidably. This is the Homunculus error. If your (immaterial) mind "sees" the brain (never mind for now the problematic nature of "sees", or available alternatives: "perceive", "sense", all terms that are inherently material concepts), what "sees" the mind during self-contemplation? It can't be this immaterial mind, because if mind can perceive itself, then "immaterial mind" is superfluous and all we need is a physical brain-as-mind for introspection and self-reference. If mind cannot self-perceive, but needs an external perceiver, a little homonculus in our Cartesian Theater, then you're sliding inexorably down a vicious regress of infinite meta-minds, and meta-meta-minds, and meta-meta-meta-minds. As for "lower" and "higher" as you've used them there, again, that doesn't cohere as a scalar, so far as I can see. What does "higher" entail vs. "lower" on this scale. What do we test to determine if one phenomenon is "higher" than another on your metric? Not sure it matters, but pointing out how inchoate the language of "immaterial" is, from one end to the other. eigenstate
eigenstate, so it's not immaterial that is the issue, it's "immaterial mind"? And any interaction of something immaterial with something physical is incoherent, not just immaterial mind interacting with physical brain? Mung
2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality. As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.
Well, at this point, it's hard to see this anything but just stupidity on your part being the problem, Barry. I don't say that very often, online, because I don't think it's true but in the most rare cases. But here I can't see any other explanation. Here's a a very simple and necessary implication of your idea. If what you say is true, water cannot be "wet", because neither hydrogen atoms nor oxygen atoms are "wet". It is a textbook case of the Fallacy of Composition you have on display, here, Barry. It's been pointed out to you repeatedly, in terms a gradeschooler can understand and learn from. Yet you persist in committing to this fallacy over and over and over and over.... What is try for an oxygen atom is not necessarily true for a any collection of oxygen atoms, or necessarily true for particular collections of oxygen atoms. This is remedial level examples. The fallacy is all the more egregious when you suppose that the extremely complex configuration of matter and energy we call a "human" does not and cannot have properties or characteristics that inhere in the individual atoms (or, reduced further, why not just invoke bosons and fermions?). The world as you necessarily see it cannot have "wet water", Barry. And yet, you have wet water available from the faucet in your kitchen. Bask in your cognitive dissonance, dude! eigenstate
eigenstate
“Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity.
Your analogy is nonsense. You seem unable to grasp the ontological difference between the seer and the seen, between a seeing agent and a seen object. Mind "sees" the brain (it can conceive, imagine, analyse, study, design it), while the inverse doesn't hold. Walking can do nothing of the sort wrt body, because walking is simply a movement of the body. While walking is lower than body, mind is higher than brain. niwrad
@Barry,
1. Thoughts are immaterial. Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all?
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for "horse".
Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No.
You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts, Barry. They are not the same thing. The concept of "four", or "four-ness", or anything you might call "abstract" is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You've conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol. Whoops.
Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No.
Yes. We can even see the neural correlates light up via fMRIs and other instruments for concepts which have abstract referents. You've clearly got no means to distinguish map from territory on this subject at this point, Barry. You won't be anything but confused until you sort this out.
It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.
Map != Territory. These are novice errors. eigenstate
eigenstate:
It conflicts with what we do observe in the brain. If we split the brain we can see two distinct “selves” emerge — whoops!
Exactly. If we had one "immaterial mind" before we separate the hemispheres we should have one after, or possibly two that are identical. An immaterial mind cannot be cut in half when we cut the material brain in half. Carpathian
We have never denied that “immaterial” is deeply problematic for materialists. But incoherent?
Yes, insofar as one supposes that an "immaterial mind" interacts with a "physical brain", the concept fails, doesn't hold together. On dualism an "immaterial mind" is "connected to" (to use the term Barry used here) a physical brain, the two entities ostensibly forming a "self" as a kind of composite (even this isn't internally consistent, though, as Barry thinks the "immaterial mind" is self-sufficient as a "self" even without the brain -- after death, for example -- which means the brain is not just "necessary but not sufficient", it's not necessary at all, just superfluous to the self). Positing this kind of interaction creates insuperable logical difficulties, though. Once you suppose an "immaterial mind" interacts with a material brain, or a material anything, it becomes a material entity, by definition. Gravity is not matter or energy, but interacts with it, but is subsumed in material STEM, right? It's material by virtual of its real interaction with matter and energy. So, dualists have to choice "immaterial mind as material", which is self-contradictory (incoherent), or "immaterial mind does not interact with the physical brain", which which renders the "self" incoherent -- there is no connection between the brain and the immaterial mind, which is just another instance of self-contradiction. If you are aware of how an "immaterial mind" can interact with a "material thing" without materially interacting, you can be world famous by Friday. If not, you're stuck with dualist incoherence, the vacuous nature of "immaterial" as it is used by Barry (and others) here. eigenstate
Barry:
We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.
That does not follow at all. My brain has memories of my mother, many memories, but there is not one single brain cell that even knows what she looks like. It does not follow that many brain cells together don't contain an image of my mother. The same goes for emotions. If you damage a certain part of your brain, you may still recognize your parents but that conscious feeling of love you had for them may be gone. If the mind is immaterial, why did its feelings of conscious love change due to physical damage to the brain? Carpathian
Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.”
No, it's not on the order of that, or anything like that statement at all. Rather the proposition is that the mind is a physical property of humans (and other animals), the activity of the brain. And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun.
Right, because there is no problem in identifying the "i" as a physical phenomenon, the activity of human brains.
Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity.
I had a neurosurgeon point out to me a kind of parody of this idea regarding the brain/mind. You know if we open up your skull, Barry, and poke our fingers around in your brain, you won't feel a thing. Voila`! Empirical evidence that the mind is immaterial, yeah! Of course there's no nerve endings in your brain to register any pain sensations. Your "self-evidence" makes a similar mistake. You can't (I can't) feel yourself thinking, anymore than you can feel a neurosurgeon's gloved finger poking around in your cerebral cortex, but that is not warrant for you suppose that mind is immaterial, anymore than you would think so because you can't feel the surgeon's finger probing around. The inexistence of the immaterial mind is denied on grounds that the hypothesis, however self-evident it may appear to you, is totally superfluous (and worse) in light of what we know about the brain and it's behavior. I say worse because it's not even the case that the "immaterial mind" superstition is impotent. It conflicts with what we do observe in the brain. If we split the brain we can see two distinct "selves" emerge -- whoops! If we alter the brain's chemistry with drugs or other structural changes we see changes that correspond with our physical models but which are completely at odds with your superstitions of the immaterial mind supervening upon a physical brain. As a starter, if you can't even conceptual consider, just as an intellectual exercise, the possibility that your intuitions are fallible, you will have closed off vast departments of knowledge that are available to.
But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:
Mind manifestly exists. That's not controversial or problematic. It's the "immaterial" modifier you insist on which is incoherent, tenable only as matter of clinging to an intuition over and against the evidence and knowledge available to you.
eigenstate
eigenstate: “immaterial” is incoherent and deeply problematic. We have never denied that "immaterial" is deeply problematic for materialists. But incoherent? Mung
I was surprised to find there is a book on amazon with the title "Philosophy of the Brain." Mung
E @ 5
It’s a very short and boring conversation . . .
For the reasons I gave at 4, certainly very short anyway. Barry Arrington
eigenstate:
“Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity.
That is a great analogy. When brain damage occurs, the "mind" suddenly behaves differently. Carpathian
. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.
Maybe your confusion should suggest you don't have the understanding you should, then, right? Consider that maybe. Neither Sam Harris or I doubt that I have a mind. Rather, I doubt (and I believe Sam Harris doubts) that I have an "immaterial mind". "Mind" is not problematic. "immaterial" is incoherent and deeply problematic. This is not even good as a juvenile effort, so far, Barry. It's a very short and boring conversation if this is Barry announcing that he knows that Sam Harris or I really do believe we have immaterial minds and are lying about it when we state contrary positions. eigenstate
eigenstate, the type of eliminative materialism that you spew is literally insane. You may deny the existence of your own immaterial mind just as Sam Harris does. But for the reasons discussed in the OP you don't really believe what you say. For the same reason I would not argue with you if you said you believe the earth is flat, I will not argue with your assertions in 2. It makes no sense for me to argue with you when neither you nor I believe your argument is sound. Barry Arrington
I will translate Bill's comment at 1 from Darwin-ese to plain English. "I am a coward. Therefore, I will respond only in a materialist echo chamber where I can be sure no one will challenge me." OK Bill; if you don't have the nads to expose your arguments to scrutiny, by all means slink back over to TSZ with Lizzie. Maybe she will treat you to some contradictory assertions, and you can affirm both of them. Barry Arrington
While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that.
BZZZT. You went off the rails on the very first sentence after you quoting section from RB. I certainly dispute this sentence: "The brain and the mind are connected". This represents a category error. The mind is the brain, "mind" just being a handy term to focus on the *activity* of the brain, and "brain" useful in pointing at the structural aspects of the brain. Brain and mind are not "connected" as distinct entities. They are only connected in the sense that "walking" is an activity of the body. "Walking" is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. "Mind" is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity. Fail on the first step, Barry. eigenstate
Just FYI, I'm not going to have time to read or respond to this for a couple days due to a professional obligation. ETA: When I do respond, it will be at TSZ. If you really want to engage this topic with me you'll come there. Your recent actions (disappearing a user and his entire output, and your inability to own up to that) disincline me to put significant effort into an exchange here. Reciprocating Bill

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