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Kirk Durston on “God and Science – Is there a Conflict?” . . . food for thought

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I think we need to watch a video by Friend of UD, Kirk Durston.

But first, a loop-back note: I have been rather busy elsewhere with issues like AS-AD, Kondratiev waves, Hayek’s investment triangle, SD and Schumpeterian creative destruction.(Pardon the resulting absence.)

BTW, this line of thought leads me to hold that the oh- so- dominant . . . and too often, domineering . . . evolutionary materialism of the past few generations has run its course and is about to be overtaken by ideational creative destruction in an information age.  A patently superior idea — we live in an obviously designed world, and we and other living creatures show further compelling signs of design — is going to prevail, never mind what the materialist establishment entrenched in key halls of power thinks.

Never mind the scorched earth bitter ender retreat.

Sooner or later, for instance, it is plain that a critical mass of people will put two and two together on the world of life and realise that we are looking at an utterly sophisticated, subtle and algorithm-rich, code using molecular nanotech system when we look at the living cell.

You don’t have to take my word for this, reflect for a few moments on what Stanford investigators have shown and said about our old friend M. genitalium:

mg_pathways{Let’s add an image from the project site (HT: Mung) giving the context of the Sim:}

wholecell_sim

 

A mammoth effort, led by bioengineer Markus Covert, has produced a complete computational model of the bacterium Mycoplasma genitalium, opening the door for biological computer-aided design

By Max McClure

In a breakthrough effort for computational biology, the world’s first complete computer model of an organism has been completed, Stanford researchers reported in the cover story of the current issue of Cell.

A team led by Stanford bioengineering professor Markus Covert made use of data from over 900 scientific papers to account for every molecular interaction that takes place in the life cycle of Mycoplasma genitalium – the world’s smallest free-living bacterium.

By encompassing the entirety of an organism in silicon, the paper fulfills a longstanding goal for the field. Not only does the model allow researchers to address questions that aren’t practical to examine at the bench, it represents a stepping-stone towards the use of computer-aided design in bioengineering and medicine . . . . Mycoplasma genitalium is a humble parasitic bacterium, known mainly for showing up uninvited in human urogenital and respiratory tracts. But the pathogen also has the distinction of containing the smallest genome of any free-living organism – only 525 genes [–> 525 genes, not bits!], as opposed to the 4,288 of E. coli, a more traditional laboratory bacterium . . . .

Despite the difficulty of working with this sexually transmitted infection (STI), the minimalism of its genome has made it the focus of several recent bioengineering efforts. Notably, these include the J. Craig Venter Institute’s 2009 synthesis of the first artificial chromosome.

“The goal hasn’t only been to understand M. genitalium better,” said co-first author and Stanford biophysics graduate student Jonathan Karr. “It’s to understand biology generally.”

Even at this small scale, the quantity of data that the Stanford researchers incorporated into the virtual cell’s code was enormous. The final model made use of more than 1,900 experimentally determined parameters.

To integrate these disparate data points into a unified machine, the researchers modeled individual biological processes as 28 separate “modules,” each governed by its own algorithm. These modules then communicated to each other after every time step, making for a unified whole that closely matched M. genitalium’s real-world behavior . . .

As in, reverse engineering a living cell. For simulation purposes. And in a context where intelligent design of cells or sub-systems in the cell is a  reality. As in, vera causa.

So, I have every right to highlight the key words above, and to infer their significance.

And, all of this is in a world — an observed cosmos — where, from basic fine tuned physics on up, the world sets a base for such cell based life. Just consider how the first four elements in abundance are H, He, O, C, the latter pair being due to the resonance that so struck Sir Fred Hoyle from the 1950’s on. Stars, the periodic table, water, organic chemistry, beyond, N is close to this level, and that gives us proteins. With the elegant sophisticated simplicity of the water molecule, locked into core parameters of our cosmos, is itself a clue. All tied into the core physics of the cosmos we live in — the only one we actually observe.

In that context, Durston’s video is well worth reflecting on as food for thought:

[vimeo 64365800]

As his videos page comments:

God and Science – Is there a Conflict?: There is a popular notion that as science advances, religion retreats. This is true of Greek mythology and superstitious beliefs, but is it true of Christianity? In this lecture given March, 2013 at Wilfrid Laurier University-Laurier Brantford, biophysicist Dr. Kirk Durston shows that science has not only failed to push back the major claims of Judeo Christianity [–> i.e. Judaeo-Christian theism] pertaining to God and nature but, surprisingly, as science advances the evidence in support of the major claims has actually increased.

Food for thought. So, now, let us think together. END

Comments
Hello kf and a welcome post. As always you come up with the most interesting topics! One would think that there was not much to the biomembrane from that drawing. It will be interesting to explore this in depth.
the world’s smallest free-living bacterium.
According to Wikipedia this appellation belongs to Pelagibacter ubique See also Mycoplasma genitalium And more: Whole-Cell Computational Model of Mycoplasma genitaliumMung
April 16, 2014
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Sorry. One more post. Ppolish says: "In a conflict between God & Science, God wins duh. Unless God lets Science win." I guess I would rephrase that because I do not think there is any real conflict between the two. The conflict is between a biblical interpretation of the evidence and materialistic interpretations of the evidence. Other disagreements emerge due to our lack of knowledge and inability to test our beliefs and assumptions about the distant past. And of course, due to our unwillingness to allow God's Word to inform our interpretations. This is the Creationist view, not the ID view, but we have many things in common.tjguy
April 16, 2014
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tjguy @ 13 Amen! Rev. 22:21Dionisio
April 16, 2014
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Is there such thing as a conflict between God and science? Isn't the conflict between two opposite irreconcilable worldviews? According to the historical biographical information, Kopernik and Newton did not see any conflict between their faith in God and science. Can any of us compare to those pillars of modern science?Dionisio
April 16, 2014
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Aw come on Kairos, where's your faith? Quote from the atheist bible: The Evolutionary Gospel according to Richard D. Chapter 19 vs 26.
"but Dawkins looked at them and said, "With an imaginary god this is impossible, but with Evolution all things are possible.”
(Adapted from Jesus' quote in Matthew 19:26) Another relevant passage is I Corinthians 1:18-31 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But redemption chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him[e] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and , 31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” Believing in a God who you cannot see and a God who revealed Himself to humanity through creation, His written Word, and His own Son is considered to be foolishness by the intelligentsia but this "foolishness" is looking better and better all the time! This foolishness has been chosen to shame the wise.tjguy
April 16, 2014
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In a conflict between God & Science, God wins duh. Unless God lets Science win.ppolish
April 16, 2014
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After seeing the discussion on whether the universe is 14 billion years old or infinite, some questions come to mind. In the hypothetical case of this universe being infinite, would that change the age of this planet? IOW, would that affect the time attributed to geological and archeological discoveries? (assuming those times are correct, which may not be guaranteed). Would the universe age discussion make any difference to the time available for the first cell to appear on this planet? Would it affect the discussion on the Cambrian explosion, when it happened, how long it lasted? Please, forgive me if these questions sound stupid. Thanks.Dionisio
April 16, 2014
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Somebody should mention that the quantity and quality of blog posts here at UD the last few weeks has been AMAZING. You guys are on fire.Jehu
April 16, 2014
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Jerry, thanks. Will follow up. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2014
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I watched the Durston video. It is really two parts. The first is a logical/scientific defense of God as the creator of the universe (and with this religion) and also there must be an intelligent origin for life. On OOL there is no necessity that it must be God. The second (much shorter) is sort of a personal explanation of why he is a Christian and what it means. I felt much more comfortable with the defense of religion/God than his personal explanation for his religious beliefs. You may get 30 different people with 30 different stories on why they hold their personal religious beliefs but you many only get one or two stories on why God is appropriate as a cause of nature and consequently why religion makes sense. I enjoyed the logic behind his defense of God and will have to see how the non-believers attack his nature and time arguments. As I have said on other threads, the infinite argument leads to absurd conclusions but this seems to be all they have now. I also enjoyed the science and logic behind his arguments. We should discuss all these references.jerry
April 16, 2014
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KF, If you google
site www.uncommondescent.com torley bridgewater
you will get some hits. For Jay Richards, he is writing very good but popular economics. The one I read is Money, Greed, and God: Why Capitalism Is the Solution and Not the Problem http://www.amazon.com/Money-Greed-God-Capitalism-Solution/dp/0061900575/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397666200&sr=1-2 Not scholarly in tone but good. May not go down well with some of commenters here.jerry
April 16, 2014
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Folks, Thanks for thots. Still very busy, need to go on to the aggregate supply issue no 1:
the most precious, valuable and renewable natural resource of all is the 2 - 3 lbs of grey matter between our ears.
Thanks for thoughts on the substantial issue. I think a K-wave is building up in the world of ideas, and the evo mat establishment is on the d side of creative destruction. Good riddance, in anticipation, frankly. SM - yup, if the denial of God is subject to science so is the affirmation thereof, unless one stacks the decks and sets up slanted rules. When I get a chance to pause I intend to blog on the 9th Bridgewater thesis ch X, on evidence and witnesses vs Hume, following up from a point VJT made some little while back -- did someone bookmark where he said it? On econ, I am a long time fan of Schumpeter, indeed I requested from my dad as a personal legacy his personal copy of the History of Econ Analysis, 1st edn I think. Kondratiev, I think is now more respected by geostrategists than economists, but recently -- it is linked from my blog and the pamphlet I created from the posts -- siomeone has shown a spectral analysis that strongly indicates such a wave. Someone else has long since traced waves back to the 900's in Sung China. Waves are linked to generation dominating technologies, ideas, econ transformations and the rise and fall of great powers. Oddly, there is a strong pattern that when there is a long term battle between powers A and B, the winner is usually C, a standby power. Maybe not so oddly, mutual exhaustion can open the way for someone else to waltz in. Just ask the ghosts of the Byzantines and Persians, about Mohammed's successors. As to Hayek, I am making use of his investment triangle in my thinking, tied to the gestation of change and the cycles, including shorter term ones. I think we are seeing a wave trough, and the time is opening up for a breakout. Jay Richards et all, I will need to follow up. Any links and any particular works or vids etc? An even more intense info age, with mass customisation, methinks. And in that era the notion of an operating system writing itself out of lucky noise will look preposterous. Short your stocks in Evo Mat! (Judge the timing though.) The article I am citing above to lead up to the Durston lecture, is a real revelation. Call this a harbinger, but in blood moons time that may come across as loaded. Let's just say, I don't take the blood moons hype overly serious, but as an index that here is a sense of impending meltdown. Putin's latest antics a la 1938 Czechoslovakia, in E Ukraine, speak volumes. Sad volumes. Then, I see the Iranians are estimated to be a 2-mointh sprint short of nukes. Not good, that is the global oil jugular. Any thoughts on the Durston Lecture? KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2014
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GIGO, folks, where blind forces are being held to have written the brain operating system, Try telling that one to the designers of our own, much simpler computers.
That will offend any honest computer science/software engineering professional, so better don't tell them that kind of nonsense ;-)Dionisio
April 16, 2014
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KF, I am a huge fan of Hayek and Schumpter and not so much of Keynes. So I will have to see what you have to say about them. Economics interests me more than evolution and I am not sure which a correct view of could change the world more. Have you read Jay Richards? He has written on economics for the everyman. He is very good. You should add James Buchanan to your list if you haven't already done so.jerry
April 16, 2014
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Arthur C Clarke is quoted in the video as having said that religion can be falsified by science. From wikipedia:
After the war he earned a first-class degree in mathematics and physics at King's College London, with honours.
So, he should have known that what he was saying is that religion is a valid scientific view of the universe, satisfying the key criteria: (1) Accounting for the observables, and (2) Being testable / falsifiable. I love the smell of irony in the morning.ScuzzaMan
April 16, 2014
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F/N: This follows up from the thread on Caroll's suggested infinite cosmos, and I will clip my comment there: _________ >> Pardon a few quick thoughts. (I have been very busy elsewhere, on other matters.) I think the core issue here is to see causal sequences as steps in recession. Then, compare the simple act of counting: start: 0, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, . . . nth, n+1th . . . Can you complete a count of the steps? [And, notice the use of ordinals.] No, at every case n, you can always go on, you never end. An infinite succession cannot be completely traversed in successive steps. The logical point then comes out most simply by reversing the count: . . . -(n+1), -n, . . . -3, -2, -1, 0. Put in one-to one match. If the steps cannot be traversed forwards, neither can it be traversed back-ways: -aleph-null, -aleph-null less 1, . . . -2, -1, 0. (Hilbert’s Hotel beloved of WLC, only adds colour to the difficulty.) The empirical fact of succession in time and linked causal chain points to a beginning. We live in a credibly contingent observed cosmos, and that is the now 90 – 100 year old message of the logic and later observations pointing to a singularity and onward expansion. All in a context that is locally so fine tuned in so many ways that it makes purposeful, skilled design starting from the physics of the cosmos the explanation to beat. That is, the obvious, best, best supported, most credible explanation. (Start from a cosmos set up so that the first four elements are H, He, O, C with N close. Thus: stars, the periodic table, water, organic chemistry, proteins. Pause and reflect on the elegant simplicity and powerful properties of water. Then think about aqueous medium, C-chemistry, protein-machine based cellular life: gated, encapsulated, metabolising, self-replicating, code and algorithm-using.) This is actually so decisive that we strictly speaking don’t need to argue over the details of the history of life on our planet, but that is a converging line of evidence. In particular, reflect on the role of complex functionally specific organisation, associated implicit and explicit information, codes and algorithms. Then ask yourself regarding the vera causa test: have you SEEN such FSCO/I beyond 500 – 1,000 bits of complexity spontaneously forming without intelligent direction? Why then, apart from ideological question-begging, should such be even entertained as an explanatory candidate for an unobserved past of origins? (By contrast we have observed design at work and have no good reason to equate computation and contemplation. It is at least a serious possibility that mind is antecedent to matter and that our own mind is more than brain chemistry and neural network patterns.) So, it is time for a rethink on the dominant materialism that is ever so often question-beggingly equated to scientific rationality. (In fact, it is seriously arguable that evolutionary materialism is inescapably self referentially incoherent, once we see that it must reduce mind to blind mechanism, computation on some substrate. GIGO, folks, where blind forces are being held to have written the brain operating system, Try telling that one to the designers of our own, much simpler computers.) >> _________ Time for some onward thinking. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2014
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Folks: HT Jerry for a link to Durston. KFkairosfocus
April 16, 2014
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