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L&FP, 47: The challenge of “proof” in a world of radical doubt and hyperskepticism

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“Prove it . . .” is a familiar challenge, one, often strengthened to “unless you prove it I can disregard what you claim.” However, ever since Epictetus, c. 100 AD, it has met its match:

Epictetus c 50 – 135 AD

DISCOURSES
CHAPTER XXV

How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

Lesson one, there are unproven antecedents of proof, including the first principles of right reason, here especially laws of logic. In this case, if one tries to prove, one is already using them and if one tries to object one cannot but use them, so we sensibly accept them as self-evident, pervasive first principles.

As there are always those who need it, pardon a diagram that abstracts from a bright red ball A on a table, to help us recognise the first cluster of such principles:

Okay, okay, here is my actual example of a ball on the table:

And, here is one in the sky, for good measure, Betelgeuse, as it dimmed in 2019 . . . identity with change:

In for a penny, in for a pound. Let me suggest a partial but useful list of such principles of logic and wider right reason . . . and yes, this chart marks a stage in my understanding of Cicero’s point:

This is already a big hint on our limitations in reasoning. We may now bring to bear in effect the Agrippa trilemma, to see how chains of proof and wider warrant confront us with a triple challenge, leading to having to — usually, implicitly — accept finitely remote first plausibles:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

We are already duly humbled.

It gets “worse.”

For, “proof” itself is a slippery concept. The very model is of course Euclidean Geometry, with its complex system of theorems — derived from, uh, ah, um, first claims, i.e. axioms. Which, in this case, were subjected to a huge debate and now Mathematical systems are often viewed as logic-game worlds constructed from frameworks of axioms we find interesting and/or useful.

Then, came Godel, and SEP is helpful:

Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent). These results have had a great impact on the philosophy of mathematics and logic . . .

Proof, in the sense, accessibility from some reasonable, finite cluster of axioms, for systems of reasonable complexity, is thus different from truth. Truth, accurate description of states of affairs. (And BTW, practical axiomatisations typically are built to be compatible with recognised facts, some of which may be self-evident like || + ||| –> |||||.)

Already, we are in trouble. It gets deeper once we come to Science. As in, follow the Science, Science has proved etc. Next to me is a gift [thanks Aunt X], “Proving Einstein right.” Only, science is incapable of such strong-sense proof. We may empirically support theories as explanations through empirical evidence, but at most we can say our theories are plausible and may prove — test out — to be at least partly true but are subject to the limits of inductive thinking. That is, we face the pessimistic induction, that our explanations that seemed ever so plausible have historically consistently been sharply limited or outright wrong often enough to give us pause.

We already saw a weaker sense of to prove, to test with some rigor. Bullet proof, means, tested and found credibly resistant to certain specified standard projectiles.

So, by extension scientific proofs can be reinterpreted to mean that science is a case of weak-sense knowledge: tested, warranted, credibly . . . or plausibly, or even possibly . . . true [so, reliable] belief.

It gets worse, welcome to . . . tada . . . RHETORICAL proof. Pisteis, as in:

Richard Nordquist

Updated July 30, 2019

In classical rhetoric, pistis can mean proof, belief, or state of mind.

Pisteis (in the sense of means of persuasion) are classified by Aristotle into two categories: artless proofs ( pisteis atechnoi), that is, those that are not provided by the speaker but are pre-existing, and artistic proofs ( pisteis entechnoi), that is, those that are created by the speaker.”
A Companion to Greek Rhetoric, 2010

Etymology: From the Greek, “faith”

Yes, pisteis comes from pistis, for faith, confident (and hopefully well supported) trust. Which brings up Aristotle’s three main appeals of “artistic” proof, pathos, ethos, logos. Roughly, force of emotions, force of credibility [to bring trust], force of facts and logic. Our emotions have a cognitive aspect and so we can asses the quality of judgements and expectations. Authorities, experts or even witnesses carry credibility to varying degrees but are no better than underlying facts, assumptions, reasoning. So, in the end it is to facts logic and associated assumptions that we must go. And, lo, behold, the result: reasonable, responsible faith.

Our humbling is now complete. We cannot but live by faith, the issue is, which faith, why. Where, hyperskepticism is now exposed as smuggling a certain unquestioned faith in the back door.

This brings us full circle to common sense principles, that we should heed Locke: roughly, we should accept that it is better to walk by the limited and perhaps flickering candle-light we have, than to demand full light of day and snuff out the candle, leaving us in the dark.

Coming back to a recent diagram, here we are, as credibly embodied, error prone but knowing creatures sharing a common world:

Reason, warrant and truth are not fully captured in the net we call proof. Where, too, proof itself is not as firm as we may naively imagine. Let us therefore seek prudence. END

Comments
Once the first experience of consciousness, through which others are acquired is deemed dubious, the onward cascade is obvious . . . self-referential absurdity.
Nobody here is "deeming" our senses dubious, KF. Did you think otherwise?William J Murray
July 23, 2021
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Once the first experience of consciousness, through which others are acquired is deemed dubious, the onward cascade is obvious . . . self-referential absurdity.kairosfocus
July 23, 2021
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Somebody preseted the rules of this world (body ,soul, morality,free will) and we are too dumb to understand all the mechanisms that are behind the scene. We are actors , Somebody else set the stage and the rules.Sandy
July 23, 2021
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The correct procedure is to first figure out the logic that you are already using in ordinary common discourse. First find out what you say is true, instead of finding out what is really true. Then second if you find errors in that logic, then you can fix those errors, to find out what is really true. We use creationist logic of opinion and fact in common discourse. There are no errors in it. It works. These kinds of considerations about not feeling certain that something exists seem to just be psychological considerations, and not logical. They don't seem to improve on the logic as used in common discourse, it just goes nowhere. And who really needs feelings of certainty anyway? It is a very bland neutral feeling. Objectivity is a very passive pursuit in my experience. It just goes on automatically, in a forced way, without much of any feeling to it. Subjectivity is obviously where feelings are at. So in comparison, you assert self evident truths as the basis, while I assert a critical understanding of the logic used in common discourse as the basis, the creationist conceptual scheme. You also use common discourse, because it is unavoidable, besides using self evident truths. So you posit extra things, while I posit just the minimum.mohammadnursyamsu
July 23, 2021
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WJM, our first conscious experience is that of embodiment. KF
Yes, we are in complete agreement on that. Did you think otherwise?William J Murray
July 23, 2021
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WJM, our first conscious experience is that of embodiment. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2021
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This all depends on where you draw the "radical" line when applying or entertaining skepticism. I would draw the "radical" line at existential unavoidables. Is it innately "radical skepticism" to doubt we have an extra-mental, physically material body? You don't get to draw that line for others for free. You can call people who doubt that "radical skeptics," but that's just your personal perspective. Based on current scientific evidence, it is entirely reasonable to doubt that our "physical bodies" exist in the manner we thought prior to that evidence. Our experience of a physical body is undeniable, but that is a statement about experience and is not also a concomitant statement about what it is that experience represents. Yes, you do get the undeniable experience of a physical body; but no, you do not also get what you believe that experience represents. As I've pointed out, there is a difference between what we experience and what we think that experience means, indicates, or represents. The experience of having a physical body and a consistent, mutual physical world around us does not tell us how to think about those experiences. Our sensory experiences do not tell us how to think about our sensory experiences. That is fully, rationally and reasonably debate-able, especially given the current evidence.William J Murray
July 23, 2021
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F/N: I find the following clip on G E Moore (and Wittgenstein) responding to Cartesian-style doubts, noteworthy:
‘HINGE PROPOSITIONS’ AND RADICAL SKEPTICISM Nicola Claudio Salvatore [ . . . ] The feature of Cartesian-style arguments is that we cannot know some empirical propositions (such as “I have a body”, or “There are external objects”), as we may be dreaming, hallucinating, deceived by a demon, or be “brains-in-the-vat” (BIVs—i.e., disembodied brains floating in a vat connected to supercomputers). Therefore, as we are unable to refute these skeptical hypotheses, we are also unable to know propositions that we would otherwise accept as being true if we could rule-out these scenarios. Let’s take a skeptical hypothesis, SH, such as the BIV hypothesis mentioned above, and M, an empirical proposition like “ I have a body” that would entail the falsity of a skeptical hypothesis. We can then state the structure of Cartesian skeptical arguments as follows: (S1) I do not know not-SH (S2) If I do not know not-SH, then I do not know M [__________] (SC) I do not know M Considering that we can repeat this argument for each and every of our empirical knowledge claims, the radical skeptical consequence that we can draw from this and similar arguments is that our knowledge is impossible. A way of dealing with “Cartesian style” skepticism is to deny the premise S1) of the skeptical argument, thus affirming contra the skeptic that we can know the falsity of the relevant skeptical hypothesis. For instance, in his “A defence of commonsense” (1925, henceforth DCS) and “Proof of the external world” (1939, henceforth PEW), G. E. Moore famously argued that we can have knowledge of the “commonsense view of the world”, that is of propositions such as “I have a body”, “There are external objects” or “The earth existed long before my birth” and that this knowledge would offer a direct response against skeptical worries. Wittgenstein wrote the 676 anti-skeptical remarks published posthumously as On Certainty (1969, henceforth OC) under the influence of both DCS and PEW, and of the conversations he had about these papers with his pupil and friend Norman Malcolm. As I’ve briefly mentioned, Moore’s affirmation that he knows for certain the “obvious truisms” of commonsense is pivotal in his anti-skeptical strategy; his knowledge-claims would allow him to refute the skeptic. But, argues Wittgenstein, to say that we simply “know” Moore-style propositions would be somewhat misleading. First, because in order to say “I know” one should be able, at least in principle, to produce evidence and/or to offer compelling grounds for his beliefs. This is to say, the “language game” of knowledge involves and presupposes the ability to give reasons, justifications and evidence. Now this seems highly problematic in the case of Moore-style propositions. This is because, argues Wittgenstein (OC 245), Moore’s grounds aren't stronger than what they are supposed to justify. Just imagine, for instance, than one attempted to legitimate one’s claim to know that p by using the evidence that one has for p (for example, what one sees, what one has been told about p and so on). Now, if the evidence we adduce to support p is less secure than p itself, then this same evidence would be unable to support p. But if it would be somewhat odd to claim that we simply ‘know’ Moore-style propositions, still, argues Wittgenstein, they cannot be object of doubt. If someone is holding seriously a denial of a Moore style proposition, for instance by saying that she has no body, we would not investigate the truth-value of her affirmations, but her ability to understand the language she is using or her sanity; for a similar false belief would more likely be the result of a sensorial or mental disturbance (OC 526). Also, for Wittgenstein doubts must be based on grounds: that is, they are internal to a precise practice and must be in a way or another justified. If they don't, they are constitutively empty. Wittgenstein gives the example (OC 310) of a pupil that constantly interrupts a lesson questioning about the existence of things, or of the meaning of words. His doubts will lack any sense, and at most it will lead to a sort of epistemic paralysis; he will just be unable to learn the skill/subject we are trying to teach him (OC 315). More generally, for Wittgenstein any proper epistemic inquiry presupposes that we take something for granted; if we start doubting everything, there will be no knowledge at all. As he remarks at one point: If you are not certain of any fact, you cannot be certain of the meaning of your words either […] If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty (OC 114-115). Not knowable or doubtable, Wittgenstein calls Moore-style propositions “hinges” (OC 341-343); just apparently empirical contingent claims which on closer inspection perform a different, more basic role in our epistemic practices.
This of course hints of self-evident truths, and the absurdities that stem from attempted radical denial. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2021
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You can see that the evolutionists use all kinds of subjective terminology in relation to fact. "overwhelming", "firmly" "extremely high" "not bothered" "compelling" But there doesn't seem to be much of any emotion required for statements of facts. No feelings of certainty need be associated to statements of fact. Simply looking at things, then basically automatically what is looked at, enters into the mind, in a perfect 1 to 1 corresponding model of it. Looking at the red ball on the table, then closing your eyes, you would still have some good representation of the red ball on the table in your mind, even now you do not see it anymore. The objective logical proof of evolution, has a lot of holes in it, regardless that evolutionists feel very certain about it. People can feel very certain that the earth is flat. Intelligent design theory, is a competing logically valid theory, consistent with the evidence. And the fact that choice is real, makes it a certainty that intelligent design theory is true. The high feeling of certainty in daily life that choice is real, can be transferred to feelings of certainty associated to intelligent design theory being true.mohammadnursyamsu
July 22, 2021
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MNY, of course, proofs must address objective warrant, to the point that to disregard them is irresponsible. Beyond that threshold, some relatively few things are capable of being shown to far higher warrant, including that some things are utterly certain. Though, ironically some of those are incapable of proof as they are pervasive principles or facts of reason so the attempt already uses what was hoped to be proved. Where, in particular, credible scientific observations hold credibility as observations not because we tag them Science. Beyond, Scientific explanations -- and especially those on the remote and unobservable actual past of origins -- cannot amount to moral certainty. The pessimistic induction puts paid to that as the list of sharply limited or outright dead theories is long. Further to this, empirical support and inferences on causal factors is a best explanation inductive argument. Let's add, that when scientific theories are tested, reliable in some gamut of experience [so can be used in engineering etc] that is itself a matter of experience and acquires credibility through that not through the imagination that we have discovered the big-T truth. Many known to be strictly false engineering models are highly empirically reliable. We therefore see a telling pattern in the Evolution as Fact and Theory Wiki post:
Fact is often used by scientists to refer to experimental or empirical data or objective verifiable observations.[14][15] "Fact" is also used in a wider sense to mean any theory for which there is overwhelming evidence.[16] A fact is a hypothesis that is so firmly supported by evidence that we assume it is true, and act as if it were true. —Douglas J. Futuyma[6] In the sense that evolution is overwhelmingly validated by the evidence, it is a fact. It is frequently said to be a fact in the same way as the Earth's revolution around the Sun is a fact.[6][17] The following quotation from Hermann Joseph Muller's article, "One Hundred Years Without Darwinism Are Enough," explains the point. There is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact.[18] The National Academy of Sciences (U.S.) makes a similar point: Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.[19] Stephen Jay Gould also points out that "Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory - natural selection - to explain the mechanism of evolution."[20] These two aspects are frequently confused. Scientists continue to argue about particular explanations or mechanisms at work in specific instances of evolution – but the fact that evolution has occurred, and is still occurring, is undisputed.
Fail, grand fail. Especially pernicious, when we recall the old sliding reference switcheroo. "Evolution" is first defined on population changes and minor often loss of function adaptations -- micro evolution -- is pointed to as observable, e.g. circumpolar species and Galapagos Finches etc. Then this is slid over into body plan origin level macro evolution as though a serious information threshold issue does not exist. Going further, origin of life and more get smuggled in, all presented as beyond responsible dispute so any objector starts under a cloud of suspicion that s/he is ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Multiply by selective hyperskeptical dismissal of objections and positive inferences to design and we see the indoctrination at work. So, part of the ground work we have to do is to sort out logic and first principles so that we can for example clear up the confusion as to what a proof is, what knowledge is, what a fact is, what warrant is, what a self-evident truth is, what a pervasive first principle of reasoning is. Then, there is the matter that the naturally evident end of rationality is truth, thus the inescapable first duties of reason in the community of the responsibly, rationally free: to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc. Down the road of that etc lies the ability to articulate sound frameworks for civil government, sound governance and law. In short, civilisation itself is at stake on these matters. KFkairosfocus
July 22, 2021
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KF, Obviously with "proof", as with many things, there is an objective notion of it, and a subjective notion of it. Feelings of certitude, being convinced, are the subjective notions of proof, and the demonstration of logic is the objective notion of proof. I well remember Abner Mintz on talk.origins, his argumentation was that he was not convinced by my argumentation. That was his entire argumentation, that he was not convinced.mohammadnursyamsu
July 22, 2021
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MNY, kindly note the just above. "Proof" is a slippery eel. KFkairosfocus
July 22, 2021
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F/N: Let us note on what proof is, advancing the OP's main point. First, Merriam-Webster:
Definition of proof (Entry 1 of 3) 1a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning 2 obsolete : experience 3 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity 4 archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried especially : unyielding hardness [--> compare, bullet-proof] 5 : evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal
Next, Wikipedia:
A proof is sufficient evidence or a sufficient argument for the truth of a proposition.[1][2][3][4] The concept applies in a variety of disciplines,[5] with both the nature of the evidence or justification and the criteria for sufficiency being area-dependent. In the area of oral and written communication such as conversation, dialog, rhetoric, etc., a proof is a persuasive perlocutionary speech act, which demonstrates the truth of a proposition.[6] In any area of mathematics defined by its assumptions or axioms, a proof is an argument establishing a theorem of that area via accepted rules of inference starting from those axioms and from other previously established theorems.[7] The subject of logic, in particular proof theory, formalizes and studies the notion of formal proof.[8] In some areas of epistemology and theology, the notion of justification plays approximately the role of proof,[9] while in jurisprudence the corresponding term is evidence,[10] with "burden of proof" as a concept common to both philosophy and law. In most disciplines, evidence is required to prove something. Evidence is drawn from the experience of the world around us, with science obtaining its evidence from nature,[11] law obtaining its evidence from witnesses and forensic investigation,[12] and so on. A notable exception is mathematics, whose proofs are drawn from a mathematical world begun with axioms and further developed and enriched by theorems proved earlier. Exactly what evidence is sufficient to prove something is also strongly area-dependent, usually with no absolute threshold of sufficiency at which evidence becomes proof.[13][14][15] In law, the same evidence that may convince one jury may not persuade another. Formal proof provides the main exception, where the criteria for proofhood are ironclad and it is impermissible to defend any step in the reasoning as "obvious" (except for the necessary ability of the one proving and the one being proven to, to correctly identify any symbol used in the proof.);[16] for a well-formed formula to qualify as part of a formal proof, it must be the result of applying a rule of the deductive apparatus of some formal system to the previous well-formed formulae in the proof sequence.[17] Proofs have been presented since antiquity. Aristotle used the observation that patterns of nature never display the machine-like uniformity of determinism as proof that chance is an inherent part of nature.[18] On the other hand, Thomas Aquinas used the observation of the existence of rich patterns in nature as proof that nature is not ruled by chance.[19] Proofs need not be verbal. Before Copernicus, people took the apparent motion of the Sun across the sky as proof that the Sun went round the Earth.[20] Suitably incriminating evidence left at the scene of a crime may serve as proof of the identity of the perpetrator. Conversely, a verbal entity need not assert a proposition to constitute a proof of that proposition. For example, a signature constitutes direct proof of authorship; less directly, handwriting analysis may be submitted as proof of authorship of a document.[21] Privileged information in a document can serve as proof that the document's author had access to that information; such access might in turn establish the location of the author at certain time, which might then provide the author with an alibi.
Contrast, Webster's 1828:
Proof PROOF,noun 1. Trial; essay; experiment; any effort, process or operation that ascertains truth or fact. Thus the quality of spirit is ascertained by proof; the strength of gun-powder, of fire arms and of cannon is determined by proof; the correctness of operations in arithmetic is ascertained by proof 2. In law and logic, that degree of evidence which convinces the mind of the certainty of truth of fact, and produces belief. proof is derived from personal knowledge, or from the testimony of others, or from conclusive reasoning. proof differs from demonstration, which is applicable only to those truths of which the contrary is inconceivable. This has neither evidence of truth, nor proof sufficient to give it warrant. 3. Firmness or hardness that resists impression, or yields not to force; impenetrability of physical bodies; as a wall that is of proof against shot. See arms of proof 4. Firmness of mind; stability not to be shaken; as a mind or virtue that is proof against the arts of seduction and the assaults of temptation.
Notice, the key concepts from Webster's 1828 that seem to have been eroded over the past nigh on 200 years:
In law and logic, that degree of evidence which convinces the [--> unprejudiced, we safely add] mind of the certainty of truth of fact, and produces belief. proof is derived from personal knowledge, or from the testimony of others, or from conclusive reasoning. proof differs from demonstration, which is applicable only to those truths of which the contrary is inconceivable.
Notice the contrast to demonstration, which is to utter certainty as the denial is inconceivable, i.e. incoherent or absurd. This -- given the date -- would include self-evident truths and theorems derived from presumably firm axioms by logical implications and linked constructions. A hundred years later, a direct consequence of Godel is that for sufficiently complex mathematical domains, axiom schemes cannot reach all truths and there is no scheme to guarantee their coherence. This, a further ninety years later, leaves us with only self evident truths as utterly certain, and insofar as such are pervasive first principles, these are not provable, strictly speaking. (The attempts will already use the principles.) Further to this, we see that proof is multifaceted and person-relative. That is, a warped or prejudiced or indoctrinated or closed mind may well find an adequate proof unconvincing. Of course, cognitive dissonance may well obtain, and blame will be projected to some suitable other. Indeed, a good part of ideological indoctrination is programming that makes such projection plausible and automatic. On experience, this includes defying logic, even logical demonstration. As a specific case, it is demonstrable from Boolean Algebra or truth table exhaustion of possible T/F states that when in p => q, p = (a AND b), this entails a => p and/or b => q. For example that Socrates is a man as well as that men are mortal each directly entail Socrates' mortality. (And yes, this is a bridge from implication logic to syllogisms.) The reaction I recall, is that the indoctrinated case is somehow, "different." It took deeply painful, life wounding experiences to break the programming in most cases. As a further consequence, let us note how the original Webster's defined proof:
. . . that degree of evidence which convinces the [--> unprejudiced, we safely add] mind of the certainty of truth of fact, and produces belief. proof is derived from personal knowledge, or from the [--> credible] testimony of others, or from conclusive reasoning.
See the reference to certainty? Notice the context, personal knowledge, credible testimony, conclusive reasoning? These are terms that indicate that what constitutes a proof will vary depending on type of problem, circumstances and individuals involved. Where, of course, certainty notoriously comes in degrees starting with moral certainty. While onward it ranges upwards to utter, incorrigible certainty, the first threshold is that certainty is that degree of conviction due to such warrant that if X meets the level, it would be irresponsible or derelict to act as though X were false. Classically, criminal cases in Anglophone jurisdictions are to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. That is, the man in the Clapham bus stop will be convinced it is his duty to find the defendant guilty and subject to severe penalty, even though a residual abstract possibility of error remains. Civil cases are decided at a weaker standard, preponderance of evidence, which seems related to the willingness to bet standard often used with practical cases of Bayesian reasoning and/or likelihood. Scientific hypotheses and theories seem to be decided at a related lower standard. This last being noted, separate from degree of credit regarding actual truth of such a hypothesis, its empirical reliability in a tested range can be established independent of actual truth. For example, though we know the limitations, Newtonian Dynamics is still widely used. Similarly, device, circuit and network modelling in electronics can be highly reliable even though obviously contrived. One can argue similarly regarding a lot of accounting, financial and economics modelling. Coming back, yes there is a common core concept of proof, but it cannot confer utter certainty. We thus see that rhetorical proof pisteis, providing good support but not absolute warrant, per Aristotle's pathos-ethos-logos triangle, is a legitimate sense of proof, capable of conveying warrant adequate for knowledge that is defeat-able but confidently held. (Such a "reasonable, responsible conviction" standard is further informed by the Agrippa trilemma forcing resort to finitely remote first plausibles in the roots of our worldviews.) Proof is by no means as simple or as cut and dry as we may have been led to initially believe. That goes on to the opening remarks in the OP [I add highlights, educationally helpful though not stylistically fashionable], which, strictly, are adequate to firmly set up the core point:
Prove it . . .” is a familiar challenge, one, often strengthened to “unless you prove it I can disregard what you claim.” However, ever since Epictetus, c. 100 AD, it has met its match:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
Lesson one, there are unproven antecedents of proof, including the first principles of right reason, here especially laws of logic. In this case, if one tries to prove, one is already using them and if one tries to object one cannot but use them, so we sensibly accept them as self-evident, pervasive first principles.
It seems this brief but quite adequate argument cuts across our deeply held culturally induced expectations and perceptions regarding proof and the default of skepticism. Re-thinking is in order, methinks. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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The proof is the demonstration of the logic, that it works, and that there is no error in it. The logic of fact is, that a fact is obtained by evidence of a creation, forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, in the mind. So then the proof that Jack indeed murdered Jane, is the demonstration of the evidence of what happened, forcing to the 1 to 1 corresponding model, of Jack murdering Jane.mohammadnursyamsu
July 21, 2021
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Jerry, notice what you stated about how little you read before drawing inferences? That is a clue, meanwhile, duly noting the focus stated in the title and the point illustrated by Epictetus, I will proceed with the main point, the challenge of proof. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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KF, the deeper issues people have with intelligent design, are the same as the deeper issues people have with "choice". As William Dembski said, intelligent design is about choice. Lots of intellectuals throughout the ages have had problems with free will. The problem of free will is, that people want to fundamentally understand making a choice in terms of figuring out the best option. That definition doesn't work for science, because there is no physics of the best. The proper definition of making a choice is in terms of spontaneity (randomness). The subjective spirit spontaneously making one of alternative futures the present. Having all the DNA configurations directly available as possibilities in a decision on them, is what enables ID to surmount the mathematical improbabilities of obtaining an efficient, viable, DNA configuration. But then ID theory requires an added sensing mechanism besides choice, to search the directly availble possible DNA configurations for an optimal solution. In any case, it is very obvious that people have problems with the understanding of choice, and that this is the reason why intelligent design theory is rejected. The attachment to choosing in terms of what is best, is deeply psychological, highly emotive. People have built their lives on that notion of choosing in terms of what is best.mohammadnursyamsu
July 21, 2021
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you are reacting to projections set up on assumptions you made.
I haven’t a clue what this means. This is my point. Does anyone know what you mean besides yourself?jerry
July 21, 2021
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Folks, what is "proof"? Deductive, mathematical, scientific, forensic, historical, rhetorical? What are the limitations of proof in these senses, is there any common concept? Or is there just a vague family resemblance bound up in a rhetorical bundle by the prestige of claiming to have proof? Not to mention the rhetorical power of hyperskeptically demanding proof to arbitrary degree of certainty for what one is inclined to disbelieve or dismiss? KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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Jerry, in short, you are reacting to projections set up on assumptions you made. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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Folks, for years, we tried to deal with the design inference and why objections seemed so deep rooted so intractable in the face of what should have been decisive evidence. Gradually, it became clear that mere scientific debates were downstream of deeper issues, tied to reasoning and worldviews with deeply entrenched cultural agendas. It is in that context that I saw we needed to work through logic and first principles. Where, this one is about the concept of proof, and so also linked start-points of logic. BTW, this also connects across to Mathematics, as that is best summarised as the study of the logic of structure and quantity. In that context, those willing to see can readily observe from the OP that Epictetus identifies that there is a core of logic that is antecedent to proof, is about first principles that are the stuff of proof. Where, we further see that proofs cannot chain infinitely, leading to worldview cores. Going further, even in Mathematics, proofs face the Godel incompleteness issue. Mathematicians live by faith. We further find that proof is broader than deductive logic chains, we have to address limits of scientific warrant and the even broader issue of rhetorical proof, pisteis. Which brings out that we all live by faith, pistis, the issue is to have reasonable, responsible faith. A hard pill to swallow, especially for those miseducated -- yes, this is a key part of our problem -- to imagine faith and reason are almost opposites. Worldviews are structured on clusters of first plausibles, may be assessed on comparative difficulties and cannot be built up wholly from utter certainties. What are the core things we cannot prove but find ourselves trusting, why? KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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Why are you here? Go play somewhere else where you can understand the ideas or are posted only pictures.
Maybe I understand as well as anyone. Why don’t you state Kf’s proposition in a few sentences. Without pictures. I’m pretty sure I could do it if I wanted to take several hours dissecting it sentence by sentence. I’ll wait for your analysis. Also I have been commenting here longer than anyone here. Might be one or two longer but not more. Definitely before Kf.jerry
July 21, 2021
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lcd, you're not making a rational arguent. Sounds like you are a fact obsessed atheist / materialist, who is clueless about personal opinions.mohammadnursyamsu
July 21, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamsu You’ve got no logic of opinion, and you’ve got no logic of fact. That is the truth, is it not? So…..you’ve got nothing much, and it is certainly not first principles.
Better go to school first . You make no sense.
Jerry stopped reading after a few sentences. .
Why are you here? Go play somewhere else where you can understand the ideas or are posted only pictures.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 21, 2021
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What remains is, here with reference to the OP, that there is a substantial issue on the table that needs to be seriously faced on pain of sobering further consequences.
I haven’t got a clue what this issue is. I stopped reading after a few sentences. I don’t want to expend the time and effort to understand just what you are saying because I doubt it will be anything new. Too much is extraneous or obscure. I also doubt anyone reads your OP’s. I see no evidence of it in any of the comments except to make fun of your visuals. Make your case in 3-4 short declarative statements.jerry
July 21, 2021
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You've got no logic of opinion, and you've got no logic of fact. That is the truth, is it not? So.....you've got nothing much, and it is certainly not first principles.mohammadnursyamsu
July 21, 2021
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Jerry, as I spoke specifically to merits above, this is now clearly ad hominem argument, which conveniently shifts focus from merits. I will endeavour to be as clear as possible and reasonable, though as finite, fallible etc I will fail from time to time; I will try to improve as I can but will never be perfect -- which is a fair conclusion. What remains is, here with reference to the OP, that there is a substantial issue on the table that needs to be seriously faced on pain of sobering further consequences. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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F/N: On Bible references, they simply don't appear above. Yes, Christians such as Paul endorsed Principle of Identity and Modus Tollens (and Ponens) reasoning. They also endorsed Euclidean Geometry. It is a true point to simply recognise that the Hebraic and Christian Scriptures come to us as part of the classical era's deposit, even as say Homer's works; where, our civilisation's roots lie in Jerusalem, Athens and Rome, with onward roots in the two key river valleys and the wider fertile crescent. As for, endorsing a core of natural law thinking, that is a simple fact of history, the first duties of reasoning stand on their own merits, e.g. I hardly think we find ourselves responsible if we were to approve or, endorse or promote the untruthful, deceitful, erroneous, imprudent etc. These things stand on their own merit. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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Kf, You will not listen. Therefore, you will not learn.jerry
July 21, 2021
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Jerry, I am by no means persuaded that the logic above cannot be followed. It is in fact in key part review of things that I know were received and understood, even welcomed. Recall, it leads with Epictetus, whose exchange is a 2,000 year classic. The case of using a red ball on a table [or in the sky] to outline Identity, non contradiction and excluded middle is unexceptional. The list of first principles is perhaps open to debate by those who disbelieve, but they can be answered. For example, the weak form PSR and link to cause are not vulnerable to the usual objections to PSR. Agrippa's trilemma is a classic, and the pointing out that we are forced to finitely remote first things taken as plausible is a fair conclusion, which sets up comparative difficulties analysis of worldviews; all of which bristle with difficulties. As for the going concern summary, it is simply listing challenges we face. So, I suspect, rather, that we are dealing with rebranded disagreements that choose you are unpersuasive over, I disagree with the listed first principles of reason. KF PS: As for proof, the point is, it is an overly broad term, which needs to be reassessed. Proofs cannot chain forever, we are finite and fallible. There are therefore unprovable antecedents of proof; some, being self-evident first principles, others are convenient axioms such as Euclid's 5th postulate. Science cannot prove to deductive certainty, and scientific explanations cannot be proved through empirical evidence, they can only be supported so far. The pessimistic induction points to a long list of theories that met empirical failure or at least limits, such as Newtonian Dynamics, 1880 - 1930. And more. PPS: The Godel results are a classic which demonstrate limits of Math as a deductive system. After 90 years, they should be increasingly well known. If one doubts the summary from Stanford Enc of Phil and the onward link, his quarrel is with foundations of Mathematics, not me.kairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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Kf, I have agree with Jack. What you write is not persuasive. It may be correct/sound logically but no one can follow the logic so it is useless. You have been told this several times, so one has to assume your OP’s are not written to explain or persuade. He’s also right when he says
If you keep doing what you’re doing, you’ll keep getting what you’re getting.
This explains most of the contention over the last 9 months. Some have reacted to your OP’s with obvious nonsense probably as a reaction to how you have presented your ideas. Not to the ideas themselves. You are getting two reactions among many. Similar to mine that is based on the little that is understood, mainly agree. Those who don’t agree with the implications of your basic ideas will create all sorts of nonsense to supposedly refute you. How can they not and maintain self consistency? For example, anything that make Christianity rational and relevant will be fought in all sorts of ways. So using biblical references is a trigger for them to object in some way.jerry
July 21, 2021
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