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L&FP, 47: The challenge of “proof” in a world of radical doubt and hyperskepticism

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“Prove it . . .” is a familiar challenge, one, often strengthened to “unless you prove it I can disregard what you claim.” However, ever since Epictetus, c. 100 AD, it has met its match:

Epictetus c 50 – 135 AD

DISCOURSES
CHAPTER XXV

How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

Lesson one, there are unproven antecedents of proof, including the first principles of right reason, here especially laws of logic. In this case, if one tries to prove, one is already using them and if one tries to object one cannot but use them, so we sensibly accept them as self-evident, pervasive first principles.

As there are always those who need it, pardon a diagram that abstracts from a bright red ball A on a table, to help us recognise the first cluster of such principles:

Okay, okay, here is my actual example of a ball on the table:

And, here is one in the sky, for good measure, Betelgeuse, as it dimmed in 2019 . . . identity with change:

In for a penny, in for a pound. Let me suggest a partial but useful list of such principles of logic and wider right reason . . . and yes, this chart marks a stage in my understanding of Cicero’s point:

This is already a big hint on our limitations in reasoning. We may now bring to bear in effect the Agrippa trilemma, to see how chains of proof and wider warrant confront us with a triple challenge, leading to having to — usually, implicitly — accept finitely remote first plausibles:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

We are already duly humbled.

It gets “worse.”

For, “proof” itself is a slippery concept. The very model is of course Euclidean Geometry, with its complex system of theorems — derived from, uh, ah, um, first claims, i.e. axioms. Which, in this case, were subjected to a huge debate and now Mathematical systems are often viewed as logic-game worlds constructed from frameworks of axioms we find interesting and/or useful.

Then, came Godel, and SEP is helpful:

Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent). These results have had a great impact on the philosophy of mathematics and logic . . .

Proof, in the sense, accessibility from some reasonable, finite cluster of axioms, for systems of reasonable complexity, is thus different from truth. Truth, accurate description of states of affairs. (And BTW, practical axiomatisations typically are built to be compatible with recognised facts, some of which may be self-evident like || + ||| –> |||||.)

Already, we are in trouble. It gets deeper once we come to Science. As in, follow the Science, Science has proved etc. Next to me is a gift [thanks Aunt X], “Proving Einstein right.” Only, science is incapable of such strong-sense proof. We may empirically support theories as explanations through empirical evidence, but at most we can say our theories are plausible and may prove — test out — to be at least partly true but are subject to the limits of inductive thinking. That is, we face the pessimistic induction, that our explanations that seemed ever so plausible have historically consistently been sharply limited or outright wrong often enough to give us pause.

We already saw a weaker sense of to prove, to test with some rigor. Bullet proof, means, tested and found credibly resistant to certain specified standard projectiles.

So, by extension scientific proofs can be reinterpreted to mean that science is a case of weak-sense knowledge: tested, warranted, credibly . . . or plausibly, or even possibly . . . true [so, reliable] belief.

It gets worse, welcome to . . . tada . . . RHETORICAL proof. Pisteis, as in:

Richard Nordquist

Updated July 30, 2019

In classical rhetoric, pistis can mean proof, belief, or state of mind.

Pisteis (in the sense of means of persuasion) are classified by Aristotle into two categories: artless proofs ( pisteis atechnoi), that is, those that are not provided by the speaker but are pre-existing, and artistic proofs ( pisteis entechnoi), that is, those that are created by the speaker.”
A Companion to Greek Rhetoric, 2010

Etymology: From the Greek, “faith”

Yes, pisteis comes from pistis, for faith, confident (and hopefully well supported) trust. Which brings up Aristotle’s three main appeals of “artistic” proof, pathos, ethos, logos. Roughly, force of emotions, force of credibility [to bring trust], force of facts and logic. Our emotions have a cognitive aspect and so we can asses the quality of judgements and expectations. Authorities, experts or even witnesses carry credibility to varying degrees but are no better than underlying facts, assumptions, reasoning. So, in the end it is to facts logic and associated assumptions that we must go. And, lo, behold, the result: reasonable, responsible faith.

Our humbling is now complete. We cannot but live by faith, the issue is, which faith, why. Where, hyperskepticism is now exposed as smuggling a certain unquestioned faith in the back door.

This brings us full circle to common sense principles, that we should heed Locke: roughly, we should accept that it is better to walk by the limited and perhaps flickering candle-light we have, than to demand full light of day and snuff out the candle, leaving us in the dark.

Coming back to a recent diagram, here we are, as credibly embodied, error prone but knowing creatures sharing a common world:

Reason, warrant and truth are not fully captured in the net we call proof. Where, too, proof itself is not as firm as we may naively imagine. Let us therefore seek prudence. END

Comments
KF, you don't understand how subjectivity works. You should learn it. Example: to say someone is "kind". The opinion is formed by feeling what the personal character of someone is, and then expressing that feeling by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, thus choosing the word "kind". And then that person is said to have made decisions out of the personal characteristic "kindness". So the logic of subjectivity is that an opinion is chosen, and that an opinion expresses what it is that makes a choice. All personal opinions have that same underlying logic. And if a stated opinion does not have that logic, then the personal opinion is invalid. For example if someone is forced to say a painting is beautiful, so that the opinion is not chosen, that provides an invalid personal opinion.mohammadnursyamsu
July 21, 2021
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Jack, the pop quiz is still open:
one, what is an oracle machine and why does it out-perform a Turing machine? Two, how does a Smith two-tier controller connect to an oracle machine and to a cybernetic loop? Three, how does such connect to our being embodied, rational, responsible, significantly free but error-prone creatures in a going concern world? Four, what are the elements of Aristotle’s triangle of rhetoric and why is it that only the third actually directly connects to warrant? Let’s add, fifth, what are the limitations of proof, and why do we need to understand them in a cynical, hyperskeptical age?
Manipulation is not warrant. And what is on the table is a matter of first principles that we tend to neglect, leading to many errors. If ever our civilisation is to get out of the needless trouble we are in, that is what we will have to face. Here, the limitations of "proof" and how that clears up the problem of hyperskepticism. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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KF: Jack, more cynical skepticism I call 'em as I see 'em, baby If you want to change the world, learn the science of persuasion. It’s how brains work. Don't you want to learn? If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting.Jack
July 21, 2021
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LCD, one of the gaps in our formal and informal education is, worldviews thinking. And yet, as the OP illustrates, it is easy to see that warrant chains, so that Agrippa has a point, we face infinite regress or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles. The challenge is to realise that proofs and broader warrant must start somewhere, where self-evident first truths, principles and facts are nowhere near enough. Common sense is important, not least to avoid falling into self-referential, self-defeat of the credibility of one's ability to be rational. This includes avoiding grand, spreading delusion similar to Plato's Cave or the matrix. Using the latter, how can one be confident the pills aren't triggering a level two delusion? And more. In that context evolutionary materialistic scientism is indeed incoherent and it is indeed just as much a worldview as any other, never mind liking to dress up in a lab coat. Which is difficult to acknowledge and often leads to denial and lashing out. KF PS: For those who need it, yes Darwin tried to use his doubts about the convictions and inferences of a jumped up monkey brain/ mind -- more or less the same on the relevant views -- to dismiss challenges to his scientific claims and wider linked views. However, the matter is plainly self-referential and self-discrediting. Hence the issue that our rational responsible freedom points to an oracle in our cybernetic loop, as supervisory controller. Deny the freedom, and we are back to a computational substrate, with GIGO staring us in the face. Deeper than that, they don't have the basis to account for the complex -- beyond 500 - 1,000 bits will do -- functionally specific organisation and coded information in a cell much less a brain. But, you are not going to hear this taken seriously, a big sign of what is going on and is spreading across ever so many other issues now. Civilisation-level, structural foundational cracks are showing up, multiplying like rabbits and spreading fast. It is time to face the crisis.kairosfocus
July 21, 2021
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KF, I guess can be proven logically that to be a materialist requires to have MUCH MORE faith than to be a theist. :))) Basically the materialist need an insane amount of illogical faith that would make a fairy to blush.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 20, 2021
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MNY, axioms and the like are part of worldviews. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2021
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KF Axioms is not actually what faith is about. Faith is about being true to something in the spiritual domain. For example faithful marriage is being true to the love in marriage. It basically means making decisions based on that love, and for that love. Why don't you see the greatness of the creationist conceptual scheme? It has the real potential of turning things around in society. Your ideas are too idiosyncratic. It is hugely important to have intellectual validation of subjectivity. For many reasons. - it is simply obvious that if you understand how subjectivity works, you generally would make better personal opinions, because then you know what you are doing in forming personal opinions. - religion is helped a lot with understanding of subjectivity. - evidence shows that lack of understanding of subjectivity causes great problems, in respect to nazism and scientific socialism But somehow you come to a different valuejudgement than me, that subjectivity is not all that big of an intellectual issue, of no particular consequence, and that objectivity is where it is at. I just cannot fathom it, how you don't appreciate the fundamental importance of subjectivity. But nobody else does either, so you are not alone in not appreciating it. Your scheme doesn't even have a straightforward definition of objectivity and fact either, besides not having a definition of subjectivity and personal opinion. The creationist conceptual scheme is vastly superior in practicality, to your scheme. It is simple and straightforward, while you use idiotsyncratic ideas like "twoness" "oughtness" etc.mohammadnursyamsu
July 20, 2021
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LCD, an interesting chain. The steps, though, bristle with complex evaluations and issues. For example, evolutionary materialistic scientism is an institutionally dominant school of thought and it is exceedingly hard to get those indoctrinated into it or manipulated by its publicists, to see that it is in fact self-referentially incoherent and self-defeating at outset. Likewise, it is hard to get the indoctrinated to realise that they are looking at 4-state, complex, algorithmic digital code -- so, language and goal-directed step by step processes -- in the living cell, which are glaring signs of the design of cell based life by language using intelligence. The linked debates have played out here at UD for many years. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2021
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ZW, yes, we need to recognise that we have worldviews that go far beyond the strictly provable and trace to our faith-points. So, we need at least the basics of comparative difficulties analysis as outlined above. In that light, we need to be very aware of the complexities and limitations that lurk in that seemingly simple, powerful word, proof. Which in the end, comes down to: provide a reasonable test of warrant and cause to trust that a knowledge claim is adequately warranted. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2021
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MNY, any deductive scheme or broader pattern of warrant has start-points, which for finite, fallible creatures who seek to avoid question-begging, must both be finitely remote and able to stand comparative difficulties. Those start points embed first plausibles far beyond self evident first principles etc, which collectively define our faith points. The issue is not whether faith, but which. As for the role of God and revelation, God would be the ultimate oracle; however, we need clear warrant that God is there and that candidates claiming to be God are trustworthy. Likewise, for other suggested roots of reality. That provision of clear warrant is non-trivial, and one of the purposes of exercises like this is to provide substantial . . . not manipulative, shallow . . . reflections that allow us to think through such issues, especially in an age of cynical hyperskepticism. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2021
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Jack, more cynical skepticism . . . see how dismissive sneering works, and feels? There is a difference between manipulative persuasion and laying out literally first principles of sound thinking. Where BTW, brains are computational substrates, they cannot be the locus for rational responsible freedom to think. That was laid out already but obviously you were not paying attention. Pop quiz, one, what is an oracle machine and why does it out-perform a Turing machine? Two, how does a Smith two-tier controller connect to an oracle machine and to a cybernetic loop? Three, how does such connect to our being embodied, rational, responsible, significantly free but error-prone creatures in a going concern world? Four, what are the elements of Aristotle's triangle of rhetoric and why is it that only the third actually directly connects to warrant? Let's add, fifth, what are the limitations of proof, and why do we need to understand them in a cynical, hyperskeptical age? KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2021
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Goodie! More useless, unpersuasive arguments. :D KF, if you want to change the world, learn the science of persuasion. It's how brains work. I promise.Jack
July 19, 2021
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We cannot but live by faith, the issue is, which faith, why.
Yep everything is reduced to this sentence. Everything is faith. Next step : Theism vs Materialism : Cells complex information can be produced ONLY by intelligence. Theism win. Next step: Monotheism Vs Polytheism. Monotheism win. Next step: What kind of Monotheism is more credible Christianity vs Islam . Christianity win. Next step: What Christian Church is closest to Primal Church founded by Christ and have continuity from Apostle till today? Ortodox Christian Church win. Next step: Becoming a saint. The end. ;)Lieutenant Commander Data
July 19, 2021
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Obviously the creationist conceptual scheme is superior. - it defines the logic of opinion - it defines the logic of fact Unlike your scheme, it doesn't really require axioms. It doesn't put a limit on logical proof, like with Godel, whose theorems it was proven, can be avoided. I will try to interpret your "law of identity" on creationist terms. There are 2 ways of identification in creationism, opinion and fact. A fact is obtained by evidence of a creation, forcing to produce a 1 to 1 corresponding model of it, in the mind. That it is what it means to "identify" a creation. The model of the creation, is the fact of it. Like to say, there is a camel out back. The statement models there being a camel out back, which is a statement of fact. A creation "A" is preceded by the possiblity of it, the possibilities "A", "not A", which possiblities are then chosen. A creator is identified with a chosen opinion. By spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, an opinion is chosen on what it was, that made a decision turn out the way it did. So then to say someone is "kind", the opinion is chosen.mohammadnursyamsu
July 19, 2021
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It is important that everyone knows they live a life of faith, particularly those who are hyper skeptical. That should open their mind to understand they are all evaluating existing data, information, and experience to find confidence in a worldview that cannot be "proven" in the cartesian sense.zweston
July 19, 2021
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L&FP, 47: The challenge of “proof” in a world of radical doubt and hyperskepticismkairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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