Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 64: The challenge of self-referentiality on hard questions (thus, of self-defeating arguments)

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One way to define Philosophy, is to note that it is that department of thought that addresses hard, core questions. Known to be hard as there are no easy answers.

Where, core topics include metaphysics [critical analysis of worldviews on what reality is, what exists etc], epistemology [core questions on “knowledge”], logic [what are the principles of right reason], ethics/morals [virtue, the good, evil, duty, justice etc], aesthetics [what is beauty], and of course meta issues emerging from other subjects such as politics, history, Mathematics, Theology/Religion, Science, Psychology, Medicine, Education etc. As we look at such a list, we can see that one reason why these are difficult is that it is very hard to avoid self-referentiality on such topics, opening up question-begging on one hand and self-referential, self-defeating incoherence on the other.

For striking example, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis, Nobel Laureate Sir Francis Crick [a co-discoverer on the structure and function of DNA], went on ill-advised record:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.

The late Philip Johnson, of course, aptly replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” Johnson then tellingly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.]

This problem is fairly widespread, and a point that should be borne in mind when we try to argue on big questions. Regrettably, this seems harder to do than one might at first imagine.

However, Elton Trueblood, building on Josiah Royce, may have put a way forward on the table, though this turns on an irony. For, one of the points of consensus of debate is that error exists. For empirical evidence, kindly refer to primary school sums duly marked with the infamous big red X’s. (That’s why I went out of my way to use green as my marking colour . . . )

However, this is not just an empirical fact, it is an undeniably true and self-evident knowable truth. To see this, set E = error exists, and try to deny it ~E. But this means, E is . . . an error. Oops. So, we know the very attempt to deny E instantly produces patent absurdity, a self defeating self contradiction. But this simple result is not a readily dismissed triviality. No, apart from being a gentle reminder that we need to be careful, it shows that self evident, certainly knowable truth exists which instantly undercuts a wide swath of radical relativist views. Their name is Legion, in a post modern world.

We can widen the result, take any reasonably identifiable subject, G. Assign, that O is the claim that some x in G is an objective, i.e. warranted and credibly reliable truth. Try to deny it, ~O. Has o shifted away from G? No, it is still a claim on the subject matter G. So, it refutes itself. Once there is a reasonably identifiable subject, there are objective knowable truths about and in G. This is a first such truth. Of course on many topics, the second truth is, we know little more than the first truth. That is Mr Donald Rumsfeld’s known unknowns. Beyond lurk, the unknown unknowns.

BTW, Morality and History count as reasonably identifiable topics, as do Economics, Politics, etc. Controversy does not prevent us from knowing truths.

And, Dallas Willard et al (with slight adjustment) are right:

To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured

[–> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]

Of course, that easily leads to the situation where false or tainted or materially incomplete knowledge claims can capture this prestige, so our knowledge institutions should be open to reform.

For this, an adapted JoHari window is helpful:

Coming back to focus, let us be on guard against making errors of self referentiality. END

Comments
PM1
What Gödel did was prove that, for a specific class of formal systems, there will be statements constructed in that system (consistent with its axioms) that cannot be proven within that system, precisely because they are statements about the system as a whole. These statements are not the axioms of the system.
It makes sense to say that a statement about the system as a whole must come from a position outside the whole (with the exception of consciousness).Origenes
January 30, 2023
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Jerry: If anything actually emerged, it would destroy itself in a very short time. Nothing more has to be said. Doesn't water have properties and effects that neither of its constituent parts have? Isn't emergence just saying the sum is more than just the combination of its parts? From Wikipedia:
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors that emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole.
This concept of emergence dates from at least the time of Aristotle. The many scientists and philosophers who have written on the concept include John Stuart Mill (Composition of Causes, 1843) and Julian Huxley (1887–1975). The philosopher G. H. Lewes coined the term "emergent" in 1875, distinguishing it from the merely "resultant":
Every resultant is either a sum or a difference of the co-operant forces; their sum, when their directions are the same – their difference, when their directions are contrary. Further, every resultant is clearly traceable in its components, because these are homogeneous and commensurable. It is otherwise with emergents, when, instead of adding measurable motion to measurable motion, or things of one kind to other individuals of their kind, there is a co-operation of things of unlike kinds. The emergent is unlike its components insofar as these are incommensurable, and it cannot be reduced to their sum or their difference.
JVL
January 30, 2023
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Jerry: It’s an old computer (Apple laptop) but with most recent system for it. Me too; two different Macs in fact with no editing problems. Could be your browser? Using Safari?JVL
January 30, 2023
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Addition to my 118
The rules of a game tell you what is a legitimate move in the game. In axiomatized systems like logic, arithmetic, and geometry, the process of making moves in the game is the proving of theorems.
One could also think of the axioms of a system as being like the syntax of a computer language and theorems as executable programs within that language. Gödel is saying that if the syntax of a formal system has the property of capturing elementary number theory, then there will be true statements expressible within that formal system that cannot be proven using the axioms of that system.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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"anti-physicalist"? Seriously? Elaborate arguments confuse the issue. There is no "emergent" anything. It is fiction. As in fiction. [said with a Brooklyn accent] Hey buddy! I got yer emergent right here!relatd
January 30, 2023
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@116
If “strongly emergent” means “caused by the physical anyway even though it cannot be explained by it”, then the term is just an expression of Chalmer’s relentless desire for a materialistic explanation of consciousness.
That's not how Chalmers defines the term, and he is vehemently opposed to all materialistic explanations of consciousness. As he sees it, to say that consciousness is strongly emergent just is to say that consciousness cannot be deduced even in principle from the laws of physics. He is as passionately anti-physicalist as any one might hope for. In his recent work he has expressed some interest in panpsychism but he observes that there are problems with panpsychism that have not yet been solved.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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@112
In my view, Gödel’s theorem makes clear that each system is necessarily based on axioms that cannot be proved within the system. That simple.
I'm sorry, but that simply cannot possibly be correct: every system is necessarily based on axioms that cannot be proved within the system. That was already perfectly understood when Euclid systematized ancient Greek geometry. Gödel was not needed for that. To see why, it might help to think of axioms as parameters of a system, or as rules of a game. The rules of a game tell you what is a legitimate move in the game. In axiomatized systems like logic, arithmetic, and geometry, the process of making moves in the game is the proving of theorems. What Gödel did was prove that, for a specific class of formal systems, there will be statements constructed in that system (consistent with its axioms) that cannot be proven within that system, precisely because they are statements about the system as a whole. These statements are not the axioms of the system.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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Emergence is a nonsense idea. Yet thousands of comments are wasted on it. It is the least likely way for anything biologically to happen but because some inane commenter pushes it. more inane comments are generated. If anything actually emerged, it would destroy itself in a very short time. Nothing more has to be said.jerry
January 30, 2023
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PM1 @111
In “Strong and weak emergence” Chalmers defines strong emergence as “not deducible even in principle from the laws of physics.” That is clearly not the same as “a brute fact with no explanation at all” (which is what a violation of the PSR would be).
Strong emergence is the claim that when X is “not deducible even in principle from the laws of physics”, it has a physical explanation nonetheless. This is in violation of PSR. Only if a non-physical cause (or new physical laws) is proposed for X, is PSR not violated.
Here’s how Chalmers characterizes strong emergence: Strong emergence has much more radical consequences than weak emergence. If there are phenomena that are strongly emergent with respect to the domain of physics, then our conception of nature needs to be expanded to accommodate them. That is, if there are phenomena whose existence is not deducible from the facts about the exact distribution of particles and fields throughout space and time (along with the laws of physics), then this suggests that new fundamental laws of nature are needed to explain these phenomena.
If X cannot be explained by known laws of nature, then a physical explanation cannot be provided. One’s intuition can be that there must be a physical explanation for X, so the search for new fundamental laws of nature ensues. In this case, we will wait for the discovery of those new fundamental laws of nature that explain freedom and rationality, but we won't hold our breath. What is the usefulness of the term ‘strong emergence’ here? It does not explain anything and adds nothing to our knowledge.
Chalmers: In particular, it remains plausible that in the actual world, the state of a person’s brain determines his or her state of consciousness (…)
No, physical determination is not at all a plausible explanation for a free rational person, Mr. Chalmers.
Chalmers: Consciousness counts as strongly emergent because psychophysical laws (the laws that correlate consciousness with neurobiological facts, etc.) cannot be derived from the laws of physics alone.
If “strongly emergent” means “caused by the physical anyway even though it cannot be explained by it”, then the term is just an expression of Chalmer’s relentless desire for a materialistic explanation of consciousness.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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I will ask a question which no one seems to want to address: What happens to an ecology when a species is introduced that is superior to all the others in the ecology in terms of reproduction? Will that ecology survive? Remember that the time will be relatively short with little or no chance for the other species to adapt because that is how the world works. Now explain how emergentism, punctuated equilibrium and adaptation will not have the same effect unless adaptation is very limited. In other words the fossil record is what it is because in a short time a new species would destroy the ecology. Therefore the logical conclusion is that such species never developed unless guided. Or as the title of the OP says,"Self-Defeating Arguments." So yes, this site waste a lot of pixels on nonsense. It has nothing to do with the mindset of undesirable people.jerry
January 30, 2023
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I have restarted the computer I am using and still no editing of comments. So a reset is not the answer Thank you for the suggestion. It just means that I have to be more careful with what I write and especially with the formatting used. No chance to edit it on the computer I am using. Will have to go back to room and get IPad to edit comments. It's an old computer (Apple laptop) but with most recent system for it. So this is not the issue. I only posted this in case others experience the same problem.jerry
January 30, 2023
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we must understand the mindset we are dealing with
That is nonsense. The objective is lots of comments about irrelevant issues..jerry
January 30, 2023
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PM1
Ori: Can it be said of each axiom of a system that is not the case that both the “statement and its negation can be proved within the system”?
PM1: Maybe, but only because axioms are never proved at all within the system in which they are used.
Axioms are “accepted as having no justification possible within the system.” To me that is synonymous with it “is not the case that both the statement and its negation can be proved within the system.” You say … “maybe.” Here, as so often, I cannot understand your line of reasoning. You seem to argue that they may be synonymous, but the reason for this phenomenon isn’t correct. They are “only” synonymous “because axioms are never proved at all within the system in which they are used.” Is that supposed to be a good reason to ignore the issue? How does that compute in your mind?
Axioms are just the initial claims that are then used to prove all the theorems in that system.
Sure. In my view, Gödel’s theorem makes clear that each system is necessarily based on axioms that cannot be proved within the system. That simple.
PM1: The more interesting question, as I see it, is not whether or not the necessary being exists but whether the PSR is compatible with the existence of anything else besides the necessary being.
For each item in the system, except for the axiom/necessary being, a distinct cause/reason can be identified. This perfectly fits PSR, perfect compatibility with PSR. Perfect harmony. However, for you “the more interesting question” is “whether the PSR is compatible with the existence of anything else besides the necessary being.” How can this question possibly make sense?
Ori: Can you elaborate? I do not understand your question.
This is just my little hobby-horse; it’s not really relevant to any of the discussions in this thread.
Baffling.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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@80 (and a few others) I don't think that strong emergence as Chalmers defines it entails a violation of the principle of sufficient reason. In "Strong and weak emergence" Chalmers defines strong emergence as "not deducible even in principle from the laws of physics." That is clearly not the same as "a brute fact with no explanation at all" (which is what a violation of the PSR would be). Here's how Chalmers characterizes strong emergence:
Strong emergence has much more radical consequences than weak emergence. If there are phenomena that are strongly emergent with respect to the domain of physics, then our conception of nature needs to be expanded to accommodate them. That is, if there are phenomena whose existence is not deducible from the facts about the exact distribution of particles and fields throughout space and time (along with the laws of physics), then this suggests that new fundamental laws of nature are needed to explain these phenomena.
In other words, strong emergence is defined relative to what physics alone would allow us to predict. That is different from being defined relative to what we know how to explain. There is, Chalmers thinks, at least one strongly emergent phenomenon: consciousness:
We have seen that strong emergence, if it exists, has radical consequences. The question that immediately arises, then, is: are there strongly emergent phenomena? My own view is that the answer to this question is yes. I think there is exactly one clear case of a strongly emergent phenomenon, and that is the phenomenon of consciousness. We can say that a system is conscious when there is something it is like to be that system; that is, when there is something it feels like from the system’s own perspective. It is a key fact about nature that it contains conscious systems; I am one such. And there is reason to believe that the facts about consciousness are not deducible from any number of physical facts. . . . even if consciousness is not deducible from physical facts, states of consciousness are still systematically correlated with physical states. In particular, it remains plausible that in the actual world, the state of a person’s brain determines his or her state of consciousness, in the sense that duplicating the brain state will cause the conscious state to be duplicated too. That is, consciousness still supervenes on the physical domain. But importantly, this supervenience holds only with the strength of laws of nature (in the philosophical jargon, it is natural or nomological supervenience). In our world, it seems to be a matter of law that duplicating physical states will duplicate consciousness; but in other worlds with different laws, a system physically identical to me might have no consciousness at all. This suggests that the lawful connection between physical processes and consciousness is not itself derivable from the laws of physics but is instead a further basic law or laws of its own. The laws that express the connection between physical processes and consciousness is not itself derivable from the laws of physics but is instead a further basic law or laws of its own. The laws that express the connection between physical processes and consciousness are what we might call fundamental psychophysical laws.
Consciousness counts as strongly emergent because psychophysical laws (the laws that correlate consciousness with neurobiological facts, etc.) cannot be derived from the laws of physics alone. This isn't a view I myself would defend, because (for reasons I've given above) I don't share Chalmers's intuitions about the metaphysical weirdness of consciousness. But more importantly, I'm not at all convinced that "not deducible even in principle from the laws of physics" is a coherent way of thinking about strong emergence. So while I agree with Chalmers and others that there is a distinction to be made here, I don't agree with Chalmers about how to make it.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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Can it be said of each axiom of a system that is not the case that both the “statement and its negation can be proved within the system”?
Maybe, but only because axioms are never proved at all within the system in which they are used. Axioms are just the initial claims that are then used to prove all the theorems in that system. (For example, Euclid showed how all theorems of geometry can be proven from axioms and definitions. Peano established the axioms of arithmetic that are used to prove all the theorems in number theory.)
Can you elaborate? I do not understand your question.
This is just my little hobby-horse; it's not really relevant to any of the discussions in this thread.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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PM1 @107
Ori: Is Gödel’s “proposition that can neither be proved nor disproved” identical to the axiom that is “accepted as having no justification possible within the system”?
PM1: No — Gödel’s proposition is the conclusion of a theorem, which is based on axioms. He proved that a certain class of formal systems (those sufficiently rich to express arithmetic) cannot be both complete and consistent: if it is not the case that both a statement and its negation can be proved within the system, then it must be the case that there exist true statements expressible in the system that cannot be proved within that system.
Can it be said of each axiom of a system that is not the case that both the “statement and its negation can be proved within the system”?
The more interesting question, as I see it, is not whether or not the necessary being exists but whether the PSR is compatible with the existence of anything else besides the necessary being.
Can you elaborate? I do not understand your question.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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Origenes, actually, the Agrippa trilemma is solvable once we see there are self evident propositions, on the reasons side, and once we see that there are necessary beings -- especially a reality root -- on the causal side, starting from our existence in a going concern world. The Godel proof is about how axiomatic systems are inherently limited, we cannot compress the infinity of Arithmetic into a finite code of axioms and primitives, if we are consistent. But that does not prevent math facts from being observed or finding that math forks and our axiomatisedmodel worlds now face two neighbours depending on whether a proposed axiom A or its negation are chosen, etc. PSR is not about cause but reason, causes apply to contingent possible beings, necessary beings must be if a world is and obviously one is. Note too, I emphasise a weak form, we may ask and investigate, with hope. That draws out modes of being which then is itself a space of reasons for being and non being: impossible, possible, contingent, necessary. I contend, it is a good reason for core math that 2, 1, 0 thence NZQRCR* are necessary on there being a distinct possible world. KF PS, as for the weak inquiry form PSR it is self evidently the case that one may freely ask why and investigate with confidence, taking advantage of logic of being and possible worlds speak. A unicorn is possible and likely will be within this century as people would pay to own one. I need not advocate any strong form for my purposes.kairosfocus
January 30, 2023
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@105
Is Gödel’s “proposition that can neither be proved nor disproved” identical to the axiom that is “accepted as having no justification possible within the system”?
No -- Gödel’s proposition is the conclusion of a theorem, which is based on axioms. He proved that a certain class of formal systems (those sufficiently rich to express arithmetic) cannot be both complete and consistent: if it is not the case that both a statement and its negation can be proved within the system, then it must be the case that there exist true statements expressible in the system that cannot be proved within that system. Interestingly, Terrence Deacon and Tyrone Cashman argue that strong emergence is entailed by interpreting Gödel’s incompleteness theorem as an ontological truth. (See their "Steps to a Metaphysics of Incompleteness".) I found that part of the argument quite perplexing, to say the least! Their article also has several responses by various theologians.
I note that the idea ‘everything has prior cause/reason’ necessarily leads to the absurdity of an infinite regress. So, if the PSR states that everything has a sufficient cause AND every cause/reason is external/prior to what it explains, it must be wrong.
The PSR avoids the infinite regress precisely by showing that there must be a necessary being whose existence is explained by itself. The more interesting question, as I see it, is not whether or not the necessary being exists but whether the PSR is compatible with the existence of anything else besides the necessary being. There is also the question of what (if anything) grounds or accounts for the principle of sufficient reason. If Peirce is right, then the PSR should be treated as a meta-induction over the history of successful inquiry. But that is not strong enough to give us the metaphysical conclusions that depend upon invoking the PSR in the first place.PyrrhoManiac1
January 30, 2023
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KF @
... one has to lie to oneself to pretend that Jews, Slavs, Gypsies or Subsaharan africans are not human; our ability to freely interbreed is decisive proof enough.
Of course, I agree. However, we are not always mistaken in our harsh assessment. Serial killers are not considered 'people' and rightly so. We correctly suspend the golden rule: we deny them their freedom and, sometimes, even their right to live.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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KF @101
It is an open question whether the principle of sufficient reason can be applied to axioms within a logic construction like a mathematical or a physical theory, because axioms are propositions accepted as having no justification possible within the system. The principle declares that all propositions considered to be true within a system should be deducible from the set axioms at the base of the construction. However, Gödel has shown that for every sufficiently expressive deductive system a proposition exists that can neither be proved nor disproved (see Gödel’s incompleteness theorems) . . . .
Is Gödel’s “proposition that can neither be proved nor disproved” identical to the axiom that is a proposition “accepted as having no justification possible within the system”? I note that the idea ‘everything has prior cause/reason’ necessarily leads to the absurdity of an infinite regress. So, if the PSR states that everything has a sufficient cause AND every cause/reason is external/prior to what it explains, it must be wrong. Case in point: “I do something, therefore, I exist”, is a truth about the person that is established by the person, as opposed to being established by something external to the person.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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Origenes, one has to lie to oneself to pretend that Jews, Slavs, Gypsies or Subsaharan africans are not human; our ability to freely interbreed is decisive proof enough. IIRC, it has been said the genetic diversity across our race is less than that of a Baboon troop. That slaves could be property was an anomaly of property rights, and a good part of why that was stopped was that it was seen that it was abusive, one is one's own property and that is non transferable. However one's liberty may be forfeit on court sentence. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2023
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Sandy, KF @
KF: moral principles are built in and attested to by conscience.
Sandy: Only if you have the right frame of reference or worldview. If you freely choose the materialistic frame of reference you have a new type of morality of own ego. Our beliefs modify our perceptions.
KF: while it is true that harmful worldviews can damage our ability to think straight about right and wrong, there is still conscience and there is the nagging little question that when we find certain things to be wrong when we suffer harm, we should avoid doing such to other people.
Our worldview does indeed modify our perception. When certain people are no longer considered ‘people’ according to one’s worldview, the golden rule is not applicable and immorality necessarily follows. The Nazis didn’t consider Jews to be ‘people’, a certain religion does not consider ‘non-believers’ to be ‘people’, a ‘slave’ was considered personal property, and so on.Origenes
January 30, 2023
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FP states,
Given the fact that it is well known that people with serious diseases or addictions, often “become” religious. Born again. No atheists in a fox hole. But it does turn out that the lack of religious belief is a risk factor for Parkinson’s.
Not to denigrate people with Parkinson's, but are you saying that atheism could be a disease of the brain? Of related note
Atheists embarrassed: study proves atheism uses less brain function – Oct 26, 2015 by Dr. Joel McDurmon Excerpt: This has to be embarrassing . . . if you’re an atheist. A new study performed at the University of York used targeted magnetism to shut down part of the brain. The result: belief in God disappeared among more than 30 percent of participants. That in itself may not seem so embarrassing, but consider that the specific part of the brain they frazzled was the posterior medial frontal cortex—the part associated with detecting and solving problems, i.e., reasoning and logic. In other words, when you shut down the part of the brain most associated with logic and reasoning, greater levels of atheism result. You’ve heard the phrase, “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist”? Apparently we can now also say, “I have too many brains to be an atheist.” For a group that makes so much noise vaunting its superior prowess with logic and reasoning, this study has got to be quite a deflator. For a group that claims to be rooted primarily in logic and reason, and to exist for little reason other than that they have used logic and reason to free themselves from belief in God and, as they allege, superstition and fairy tales, this study is the equivalent of a public depanting­—i.e., the would-be emperor’s got no clothes. https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-518588-1.html Research on religion and serious mental illness Harold G. Koenig David B. Larson Andrew J. Weaver – 27 February 2006 According to this review, religion plays a largely positive role in mental health; future research on severe mental disorders should include religious factors more directly https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/yd.23319988010 “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” – Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists – Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100
bornagain77
January 30, 2023
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F/N: Wikipedia on PSR:
The principle has a variety of expressions, all of which are perhaps best summarized by the following: For every entity X, if X exists, then there is a sufficient explanation for why X exists. For every event E, if E occurs, then there is a sufficient explanation for why E occurs. For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true. [for all] P [there exists some] Q ( Q --> P ) A sufficient explanation may be understood either in terms of reasons or causes, for like many philosophers of the period, Leibniz did not carefully distinguish between the two. The resulting principle is very different, however, depending on which interpretation is given (see Payne's summary of Schopenhauer's Fourfold Root). It is an open question whether the principle of sufficient reason can be applied to axioms within a logic construction like a mathematical or a physical theory, because axioms are propositions accepted as having no justification possible within the system. The principle declares that all propositions considered to be true within a system should be deducible from the set axioms at the base of the construction. However, Gödel has shown that for every sufficiently expressive deductive system a proposition exists that can neither be proved nor disproved (see Gödel's incompleteness theorems) . . . . According to Schopenhauer's On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason, there are four distinct forms of the principle. First Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Becoming (principium rationis sufficientis fiendi); appears as the law of causality in the understanding.[17] Second Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Knowing (principium rationis sufficientis cognoscendi); asserts that if a judgment is to express a piece of knowledge, it must have a sufficient ground or reason, in which case it receives the predicate true.[18] Third Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Being (principium rationis sufficientis essendi); the law whereby the parts of space and time determine one another as regards those relations.[19] Example in arithmetic: Each number presupposes the preceding numbers as grounds or reasons of its being; "I can reach ten only by going through all the preceding numbers; and only by virtue of this insight into the ground of being, do I know that where there are ten, so are there eight, six, four."[20] "Now just as the subjective correlative to the first class of representations is the understanding, that to the second the faculty of reason, and that to the third pure sensibility, so is the subjective correlative to this fourth class found to be the inner sense, or generally self-consciousness."[21] Fourth Form: The Principle of Sufficient Reason of Acting (principium rationis sufficientis agendi); briefly known as the law of motivation.[22] "Any judgment that does not follow its previously existing ground or reason" or any state that cannot be explained away as falling under the three previous headings "must be produced by an act of will which has a motive." As his proposition in 43 states, "Motivation is causality seen from within."[23]
Now of course, these are strong form, and open up all sorts of controversies. We can start with a familiar case, a tossed die, which seems to take its value at random. If there is a cause why at random? To this, some might point out that a die is a chaotic system and while in principle outcomes are determined, mechanically, we cannot trace them and randomness is a useful fiction. This is also used in classical kinetic theory of gases, or the Galton Board or Quincunx. We can go to a quantum phenomenon such as radioactivity. Where, it seems each RA atom has a calculable likelihood of decaying per unit time. For that case, it seems, one can point to the order in the chaos and highlight a range of outcomes set up through underlying order. Which outcome per atom is not strictly predictable but a population shows the order, and we can argue that cause here is relevant to what sets up the underlying order. Is mind like that? Perhaps, sometimes, we may toss a coin to decide a path. This highlights agency, self moved behaviour on choice, as a causal factor; agency. Which, as we know, is critical to have credible reasoning. Then there are world models with arbitrary initial parameters, dynamics etc, or axioms that are not explained from within a scheme such as Geometry or Arithmetic, or we could set up some truly arbitrary framework. Obviously, acts of will. But, too, when we want axioms to be true, we infer them from experience or what seems reasonable. On the necessary being side, are we simply opening up a grab bag for what does not fit otherwise? No, for example twoness naturally emerges from there being a distinct possible world. Likewise, the logic is, that non being has no causal power. Nor is cause a mere statistical association, we think in terms of dynamics with principles and mechanisms. Heat, oxidiser and fuel for a fire that carries out a combustion chain reaction. We already see, that we can inquire and reason out circumstances. But what about a grand composite contingent fact: the world is, as it is, for no particular reason. Or that there are brute givens that just are, or an ultimate necessary entity that just is? These open up the weak form PSR, even if we have no current generally accepted answer, we may freely inquire and there is no good reason to abandon hope. but, something within the cosmos is part of its evident contingency, and on rejecting a world from non being, we may see that the world requires a reality root that always was. The ultimate necessary being, whose explanation is, necessity informed by a contingent world with contingent creatures capable of reason. That is, self referentiality demands coherence and here we find it. Were there not such, we would not be here to debate, so we have good reason to know of such. As to ontolgical character, necessary, on pain of absurd denial of there being a world. But as always, the debate goes on. KF KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Sandy, while it is true that harmful worldviews can damage our ability to think straight about right and wrong, there is still conscience and there is the nagging little question that when we find certain things to be wrong when we suffer harm, we should avoid doing such to other people. Though of course our sense of empathy and our sense of conscience can be benumbed. As a capital case, Ms Maxwell seemed to have helped Mr Epstein procure underage girls. And more. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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I am slowly working my way through the above mentioned video. At about the 30 minute mark he made the claim that people with Parkinson’s, a disease that affects the brain, are less religious. Given the fact that it is well known that people with serious diseases or addictions, often “become” religious. Born again. No atheists in a fox hole. But it does turn out that the lack of religious belief is a risk factor for Parkinson’s. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10943-022-01603-8Ford Prefect
January 29, 2023
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OT, but I think this might be of interest to some here. I lived with the guy being interviewed while doing the field work for my M.Sc. He is also the author of several sci-fi novels. His predictions in the first few minutes about pandemics is interesting, given that this was recorded a few years before COVID. https://youtu.be/g1_YZZ9V3WUFord Prefect
January 29, 2023
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Kairosfocus Sandy, moral principles are built in and attested to by conscience.
Only if you have the right frame of reference or worldview. If you freely choose the materialistic frame of reference you have a new type of morality of own ego. Our beliefs modify our perceptions.Sandy
January 29, 2023
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F/N: it should be clear that the design inference is an inference to a key causal factor. As such, it points to intelligibility of the world, that effects require adequate causes. In turn cause points to sufficient reason. Which is actually built into the foundations of science, more than just common sense. KFkairosfocus
January 29, 2023
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Sandy, moral principles are built in and attested to by conscience. We often feel them most directly when we have been wronged, our struggle is to then reciprocate to others. Unfortunately habits of life and breakdowns of the community can undermine such. KFkairosfocus
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