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L&FP, 64: The challenge of self-referentiality on hard questions (thus, of self-defeating arguments)

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One way to define Philosophy, is to note that it is that department of thought that addresses hard, core questions. Known to be hard as there are no easy answers.

Where, core topics include metaphysics [critical analysis of worldviews on what reality is, what exists etc], epistemology [core questions on “knowledge”], logic [what are the principles of right reason], ethics/morals [virtue, the good, evil, duty, justice etc], aesthetics [what is beauty], and of course meta issues emerging from other subjects such as politics, history, Mathematics, Theology/Religion, Science, Psychology, Medicine, Education etc. As we look at such a list, we can see that one reason why these are difficult is that it is very hard to avoid self-referentiality on such topics, opening up question-begging on one hand and self-referential, self-defeating incoherence on the other.

For striking example, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis, Nobel Laureate Sir Francis Crick [a co-discoverer on the structure and function of DNA], went on ill-advised record:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.

The late Philip Johnson, of course, aptly replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” Johnson then tellingly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.]

This problem is fairly widespread, and a point that should be borne in mind when we try to argue on big questions. Regrettably, this seems harder to do than one might at first imagine.

However, Elton Trueblood, building on Josiah Royce, may have put a way forward on the table, though this turns on an irony. For, one of the points of consensus of debate is that error exists. For empirical evidence, kindly refer to primary school sums duly marked with the infamous big red X’s. (That’s why I went out of my way to use green as my marking colour . . . )

However, this is not just an empirical fact, it is an undeniably true and self-evident knowable truth. To see this, set E = error exists, and try to deny it ~E. But this means, E is . . . an error. Oops. So, we know the very attempt to deny E instantly produces patent absurdity, a self defeating self contradiction. But this simple result is not a readily dismissed triviality. No, apart from being a gentle reminder that we need to be careful, it shows that self evident, certainly knowable truth exists which instantly undercuts a wide swath of radical relativist views. Their name is Legion, in a post modern world.

We can widen the result, take any reasonably identifiable subject, G. Assign, that O is the claim that some x in G is an objective, i.e. warranted and credibly reliable truth. Try to deny it, ~O. Has o shifted away from G? No, it is still a claim on the subject matter G. So, it refutes itself. Once there is a reasonably identifiable subject, there are objective knowable truths about and in G. This is a first such truth. Of course on many topics, the second truth is, we know little more than the first truth. That is Mr Donald Rumsfeld’s known unknowns. Beyond lurk, the unknown unknowns.

BTW, Morality and History count as reasonably identifiable topics, as do Economics, Politics, etc. Controversy does not prevent us from knowing truths.

And, Dallas Willard et al (with slight adjustment) are right:

To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured

[–> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]

Of course, that easily leads to the situation where false or tainted or materially incomplete knowledge claims can capture this prestige, so our knowledge institutions should be open to reform.

For this, an adapted JoHari window is helpful:

Coming back to focus, let us be on guard against making errors of self referentiality. END

Comments
Seversky If consciousness and thoughts die when the physical brain dies
:) Consciousness and thoughts can't die because are immaterial. Brain is just a tool used by conscience to access and have an impact in the material world. There is not a shred of scientific evidence that matter can create information (so let's forget about intelligence and consciousness that are far more superior levels than information).Sandy
January 27, 2023
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@32 1. Whether or not Darwin's "horrid doubt" undermines mathematics in addition to metaphysics depends on what one's account of mathematics is. I don't see how it would undermine mathematics if mathematics were (to use some jargon) "analytic", i.e. truths based on meaning alone. 2. Whether or not the impossibility of metaphysical knowledge entails the impossibility of all knowledge (including empirical knowledge) depends on whether or not one thinks that metaphysical knowledge is a "foundation" for empirical knowledge. Some philosophers (such as Descartes) have thought that it is. Others have disagreed. 3. The quote from Haldane was published before he became a Marxist. When he became a Marxist and a proponent of dialectical materialism, he realized that his own earlier objections to materialism no longer pertained, because he realized that he had been targeting reductive materialism. Haldane's dialectical materialism is explicitly and emphatically emergentist, just as Engels's was in Dialectics of Nature. 4. Lewontin's point is simply that we cannot do science without assuming the uniformity of nature, which means that we must assume that God will not interfere with the natural order whenever it suits His plan. His objection to Sagan is that we do not infer from science that there are no miracles; rather we must adopt a posture of methodological naturalism in order to do science in the first place. 5. Whether or not one needs to assume anything like classical theism in order to ground or justify methodological naturalism, that is a separate point from the point that Lewontin is making, which is that we must assume that God does not arbitrarily interfere with the natural world in order to science at all in the first place. We could not do science at all if God could change the results of experiments at any time because it suited His plans that are inscrutable to us. 6. While it is almost certainly true that Lewontin's Marxism influenced his commitment to methodological naturalism, it's probably also true that the influence runs in the other direction as well. Regardless, one can certainly appreciate Lewontin's objection to Sagan regardless of Lewontin's other philosophical-political commitments. 7. Regardless of what Darwin worried about, the question could still be asked: do contemporary cognitive sciences, evolutionary theory, and theoretical biology give us reason to believe that the evolved cognitive capacities of human and non-human animals are generally unreliable? As someone with a basic competence in those fields, I see no reason why would be the case.PyrrhoManiac1
January 27, 2023
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F/N: One of the key test cases for Slagle's concern is Darwin himself, as we may see from the wider import of his July 3, 1881 letter to William Gray:
“With me the horrid doubt always arises, whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?”
Of course, of course, his apologists hasten to provide a context, that he was in fact targetting abstract metaphysical, theological and religious sentiment driven reasoning, not oh so well established simple empirical evidence that grounds, say, his theory. We only pause to say, that already has written off mathematics and any other complex discipline. But such is not the core. The core is, immediately, if we are so delusion prone and discredited, where do we suddenly get credibility from to warrant any knowledge of significance? As, there are no firewalls in our minds. From this, it is but a step to notice that the sort of distinction that is being made to try to shield the Evolutionary theory, is precisely a case of highly abstract, abstruse reasoning. It fails, fails by self referential absurdity. Going further, we now have right of fair comment to point out that the defence offered is manifestly special pleading to protect an establishment. As any graduate of Marxism 101 would have no problems identifying. Speaking of socialists, we now see the point J B S Haldane, a co founder of the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis, made. Here, I skeletonise and augment his famous remark:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
Finding another socialist, Lewontin, too, needs to be heard [in annotated form to draw out the issues}:
[Lewontin lets the cat out of the bag:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
So, it seems, the matter of self referentiality needs to be carefully pondered. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2023
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Origenes at 26, Naturalism is a worldview. Fer cryin' out loud, what do you think you're up against here? Nothing? The person who believes "the natural is all there is" REJECTS anything else. If he can't see it, touch it or look at it under a microscope - forget it. So he can go through life with a worship of men ONLY. Some great man wrote a book and he will meditate on it, maybe build his life around it.relatd
January 27, 2023
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Seversky at 23, I would not encourage anyone to take your word for it. It seems some would rather expose themselves to hot lava than say a prayer to God. He's waiting for you.relatd
January 27, 2023
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Strictly as an exercise for my own edification, here are some various specifications of (1)-(6). The first grouping consists of variations that I would reject, on the grounds that they go beyond what can be scientifically supported. The second grouping consist of variations that I would accept, on the grounds that they are more solidly based on what the sciences do and do not license one to justifiably assert. Any similarity between Group 1 and the worldview of Alex Rosenberg is strictly intentional. Group 1 1. Fundamental physics is the sole guarantor of ontological commitment 2. Causal closure of the fundamentally physical (anti-emergentism) 3. Nothing cannot be explained in terms of fundamental physic is ontologically permissible. 4. Mental states and processes can be exhaustively explained in terms of fundamental physics 5. The modern synthesis is necessary and sufficient for explaining biological diversity 6. There is no teleology, only teleonomy. Group 2 1. The methods of the social, biological, and physical sciences are more reliable indicators of ontological commitment than other forms of understanding. 2. The universe as a whole is a causally closed system. 3. No events, states, or processes within the universe can violate laws of fundamental physics 4. The biological function of cognition is to enable organisms to cope with environmental complexity. 5. Organism-centered accounts of evolution -- natural selection is not a causal factor but a higher-order effect of what tends to happen to populations of organisms over time. 6. Intrinsic purposiveness is real (PDF); organisms are natural purposes.PyrrhoManiac1
January 27, 2023
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Seversky @27
1. The physical sciences are the touchstone of reality.
I’d say it’s a question of “so far, so good.” The physical sciences have been the most successful tools we have for probing the nature of physical reality and we would be foolish not to continue using them, all the while bearing in mind they may have their limits.
So, which is it? Is reality what physical sciences says it is? Or is the case that physical sciences "may have their limits"? What does that mean? Oh, I forgot the naturalist is resistant to "extreme reductionism." So, some things may not be reducible to what physical sciences are about. Or perhaps they are, but we should not really be so extreme. So, I guess we should (somewhat?) get rid of premise 1.
2. Causal closure of the physical.
In the broadest sense, yes.
Is that in the same broadest sense as the Tao should be understood, or rather cannot be understood? This is getting rediculous.Origenes
January 27, 2023
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Origenes/15
1. The physical sciences are the touchstone of reality.
I'd say it's a question of "so far, so good." The physical sciences have been the most successful tools we have for probing the nature of physical reality and we would be foolish not to continue using them, all the while bearing in mind they may have their limits.
Causal closure of the physical.
In the broadest sense, yes.
Anti ‘supernatural’
Absolutely.
The mind is causally derivative from the physical.
What we observe so far is that the mind/consciousness disappears irretrievably when the brain dies so that is a reasonable inference.
Darwinian evolution.
Not just Darwinian.
At some level, the denial of teleology
We know that there are artefacts produced by intelligent agents because we designed them. The question is whether there are other such beings of much greater knowledge and power than ourselves elsewhere in this Universe. I would not be surprised to find there are. Whether they rise to the level of the Christian God is another question.Seversky
January 27, 2023
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Let us stop pretending that 'naturalism' is a worldview/philosophy. It is an enumeration of sciency stuff without internal coherence, axioms are either lacking or endlessly malleable. It can neither be understood nor argued against. It is the western version of Tao.Origenes
January 27, 2023
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Origenes/17
“we present teleology brought to you by purely blind natural processes!”
I think the word you're looking for is "teleonomy"Seversky
January 27, 2023
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@15
Naturalism, according to Slagle: 1. The physical sciences are the touchstone of reality. 2. Causal closure of the physical. 3. Anti ‘supernatural’ 4. The mind is causally derivative from the physical. 5. Darwinian evolution. 6. At some level, the denial of teleology. PM1 was upset about 6.
I can easily imagine versions of (1)-(6) that I would accept, and versions of (1)-(6) that I would not accept.PyrrhoManiac1
January 27, 2023
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If consciousness and thoughts die when the physical brain dies then naturalism/physicalism/materialism are the better explanation. There is no supernatural, only the unknown.Seversky
January 27, 2023
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If one thought exists then naturalism is impossible. Is that simple.Sandy
January 27, 2023
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. #19-20 It’s double-speak. It’s horse poo — “let us use words to succeed amongst ourselves where the evidence and reason fails us” And it is most certainly another unspoken admission that the inference to design in biology is both valid and inescapable. (something we’ve seen here time after time)Upright BiPed
January 26, 2023
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Origenes, they are trying to subvert the compelling force of the evidence of design by begging questions on imposed a priori materialistic evolutionism per Lewontin. We can take it as a back handed admission that we have won the evidence of design issue so they are now trying to smuggle purpose in the back door without sound responsiveness on the source of complex design as observed. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2023
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PM1 @18, KF Let's read it together. According to you, this has to do with the "naturalization" of teleology. This is the abstract of one of the papers you linked to:
What makes biological organisation teleological? Matteo Mossio & Leonardo Bich Abstract This paper argues that biological organisation can be legitimately conceived of as an intrinsically teleological causal regime. The core of the argument consists in establishing a connection between organisation and teleology through the concept of self-determination: biological organisation determines itself in the sense that the effects of its activity contribute to determine its own conditions of existence. We suggest that not any kind of circular regime realises self-determination, which should be specifically understood as self-constraint: in biological systems, in particular, self-constraint takes the form of closure, i.e. a network of mutually dependent constitutive constraints. We then explore the occurrence of intrinsic teleology in the biological domain and beyond. On the one hand, the organisational account might possibly concede that supra-organismal biological systems (as symbioses or ecosystems) could realise closure, and hence be teleological. On the other hand, the realisation of closure beyond the biological realm appears to be highly unlikely. In turn, the occurrence of simpler forms of self-determination remains a controversial issue, in particular with respect to the case of self-organising dissipative systems.
Origenes
January 26, 2023
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@17
In one of these papers they look at biological organization, I assume that they identify some goals of the organism, assume that an organism is just physical stuff produced by Darwinian evolution, and say: “we present teleology brought to you by purely blind natural processes!”
You can assume whatever you want without reading it. Or you can read it for yourself and then make up your mind.PyrrhoManiac1
January 26, 2023
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KF@16, PM1 WRT teleology & naturalism. In the Galton board thread, PM1 links to papers where teleology is allegedly being "naturalized." In one of these papers they look at biological organization, I assume that they identify some goals of the organism, assume that an organism is just physical stuff produced by Darwinian evolution, and say: "we present teleology brought to you by purely blind natural processes!" I wonder what will stop them from "naturalizing" teleology by identifying the goals of, let's say, Professor James Tour?Origenes
January 26, 2023
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Origenes, the first five directly expand the summary phrase, evolutionary materialistic scientism. The most plausible understanding of teleology is, from AmHD:
1. The philosophical interpretation of natural phenomena as exhibiting purpose or design. 2. The use of ultimate purpose or design as a means of explaining phenomena. 3. Belief in or the perception of purposeful development toward an end, as in history.
1 - 5 would naturally lead to 6, unless one wishes to infer design and purpose are built in to the world. Which is some form of pantheism or panentheism; which, of course, are not naturalistic views. I think we are seeing slippery definitions here, with meanings provided by self selective typically prestigious in-groups that run far counter to the normal usage. Of course, unannounced until there is enough power to openly impose. As, is being pushed on us regarding being male or female. It looks a lot like rationality is about to be redefined away from responsible freedom that [habitually] works in accord with first principles of logic to infer reliable, credibly true conclusions, as opposed to blind GIGO limited computationalism. That suggests subversion of language to herd us in a direction preferred by agendas backed by influence and reaching for naked power. I would say, for many things, ends or purposes or goals are naturally evident -- eyes TO see, ears TO hear, etc -- but that is not opposed to intelligent purpose expressed in the world. In that context FSCO/I, is a strong sign, especially things like coded information in the living cell. Notice, how hotly such . . . the manifest consensus . . . has been objected to. I get very wary when I see signs of in groups and such slipperiness. 1984, Animal Farm, doublethink and doubletalk come to mind. Do I need to add, Napoleon and Big Brother? But then, just maybe, we will be given a cogent, straightforward explanation. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2023
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KF @ Naturalism, according to Slagle: 1. The physical sciences are the touchstone of reality. 2. Causal closure of the physical. 3. Anti ‘supernatural’ 4. The mind is causally derivative from the physical. 5. Darwinian evolution. 6. At some level, the denial of teleology. PM1 was upset about 6.Origenes
January 26, 2023
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PM1 @9 , Animateddust @12
Reasoning is a distinct kind of rule-governed behavior. It does not require violating the causal closure of the physical universe.
You seem to have mastered the art of misunderstanding. My point is: 1. Physical Causal closure states: everything has a sufficient physical cause. 2. Beliefs exists and have a cause. Therefore, from 1. and 2. 3. All beliefs have a physical cause. (If Dennett & co worldview is correct)
You want to say that naturalism cannot accommodate rationality as such because it does not accommodate your preferred theory of what rationality is.
Please stop with that repeated whining argument. My “preferred” theory of reasoning is that it is not shaped by chemical ‘reasons’. Na+ + OH- --> NaOH is not my “preferred” reason to hold any belief. - - - AnimatedDust Hear! Hear!Origenes
January 26, 2023
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PM1, the incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism is a real issue, one that cannot be wished away. As for Marx, Slagle gave an explicit citation that is directly parallel to what I saw from live marxists. Crick, as cited above, speaks for himself and is indisputably eminent. However, my OP is not just about such, it speaks to other forms of determinism or materialistic reductionism. It is also far broader, the issue is that a key part of the difficulty of big core worldview questions is that in addressing such, we are going to be self referential, almost inescapably. So, we should be careful to avoid incoherence. KF PS, as to the solution to the linked hard problems of worldviews that are evolutionary materialistic and scientistic [the relevant description of naturalism], It would be interesting to see at least a substantial and cogent answer. This includes the hard problem of consciousness, for just one aspect. PPS, naturalism is a tad hard to pin down, per SEP:
The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944, Kim 2003). So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term as applied to contemporary philosophers. The great majority of contemporary philosophers would happily accept naturalism as just characterized—that is, they would both reject “supernatural” entities, and allow that science is a possible route (if not necessarily the only one) to important truths about the “human spirit”.
Boiling down, we may turn to Merriam Webster:
: a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance specifically : the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena
In short, in practice materialistic, evolutionary, and scientistic.kairosfocus
January 26, 2023
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PM@ 11: It most certainly does. That you refuse to acknowledge that fact doesn't negate its truth in the slightest. And in your so doing, you merely reinforce your preference for falsehood as completely acceptable in your worldview, because your preferences drive your reality.AnimatedDust
January 26, 2023
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@10
In other words, whatever they believe is fine. lol
My point was that naturalism does not suffer from the internal incoherence that Origenes believes it does.PyrrhoManiac1
January 26, 2023
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"That their account differs from yours" In other words, whatever they believe is fine. lol Andrewasauber
January 26, 2023
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These folks say that the physical is all that exists. They argue for causal closure of the physical—everything has a sufficient physical cause. If we then point out that physical reasons radically differ from rational reasons, and that their worldview implies that all beliefs are produced by non-rational (physical) forces, they, like you, pretend not to understand the argument.
Reasoning is a distinct kind of rule-governed behavior. It does not require violating the causal closure of the physical universe. You want to say that naturalism cannot accommodate rationality as such because it does not accommodate your preferred theory of what rationality is. This ignores the fact that naturalists have their own understanding of what rationality is. They have constructed, within the resources of their account of reality, an account of the cognitive operations whereby they know what reality is. That their account differs from yours does not mean that they are being incoherent or that they have any self-referentiality problem.PyrrhoManiac1
January 26, 2023
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PM1 @7
I have no objection to this line of reasoning. But who exactly is the target here? Who is it who supposedly says “all beliefs are produced by non-rational forces”? I can tell you this much: the Churchlands do not say this. Dennett does not say this.
These folks say that the physical is all that exists. They argue for causal closure of the physical—everything has a sufficient physical cause. If we then point out that physical reasons radically differ from rational reasons, and that their worldview implies that all beliefs are produced by non-rational (physical) forces, they, like you, pretend not to understand the argument.Origenes
January 26, 2023
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@3
if all beliefs are produced by nonrational forces and are thus nonveracious, then the belief that “all beliefs are produced by non-rational forces and are thus nonveracious” is itself produced by nonrational forces and is thus nonveracious.
I have no objection to this line of reasoning. But who exactly is the target here? Who is it who supposedly says “all beliefs are produced by non-rational forces”? I can tell you this much: the Churchlands do not say this. Dennett does not say this. (Neither do Dewey, Freud, or Marx say this, despite what Pearcey and Slagle insinuate.)PyrrhoManiac1
January 26, 2023
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A divided, polarized civilization? No. Where does the average person get true statements? His teachers? Parents? The Media? I think most people are too busy living their lives to analyze any statements beyond assigning a level of credibility based on the source, followed by a rapid assessment of whether or not any statement is true based on basic logic and previous knowledge. For the average person, such assessments happen on an almost intuitive level.relatd
January 26, 2023
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The problem of self-referential incoherence is baked in certain worldviews from the very outset. A free rational person who builds a worldview starting with the claim ‘X is all that exists’, while X does not allow for the existence of a free rational person, inevitably runs into self-referential incoherence. Such a person is unaware that “all that exists” necessarily also refers to him. The same profound lack of awareness plagues Rosenberg when he keeps writing stuff like “When consciousness convinces you that you, or your mind, or your brain has thoughts about things, it is wrong.” Somehow, Rosenberg is unable to acquire the awareness that such claims also refer to himself. For some reason, he cannot rid himself of the illusion that his position is independent of his claims about consciousness and rationality. So, we should be very careful when we make grand claims like “Information is all that exists”, “Physics is all that exists”, “Tao is all that exists”, or even “God is all that exists.” When we make such an “All that exists is X” claim, we should immediately follow up with the question: “Does the claim allow for my existence as a free rational person?”Origenes
January 26, 2023
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